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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Dec 21, 2009 8:15:39 GMT -5
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jlp
Junior Member
Posts: 54
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Post by jlp on Dec 21, 2009 17:38:16 GMT -5
If it is a social crime for women to be fat, for men it is a misdemeanor. In spite of our efforts as feminists to change our position in society, we are still supposed to be decorative, whatever other qualifications we may possess. Men continue to be judged more by their accomplishments than by their appearance, although certainly the media “hunk” is gradually changing this.
Nevertheless, it is women who bear most of the burden of looksism and fat-phobia in our society. While fat women receive the harshest penalties for not conforming to the standard of thinness, most women do not feel that they fit the stringent qualifications for beauty in this culture.
This is awesome Tapati. I am also overweight. I've found that many single Christian men my age are more interested in my weight than anything else. The fact that I am overweight makes them not want to associate with me. It's strange, they believe they have authority over women, but their first judgement of women is their weight. And somehow women are supposed to want to be under their leadership even though they judge us on such shallow and un-Christ like grounds.
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Post by Gracious on Dec 21, 2009 19:14:53 GMT -5
If it is a social crime for women to be fat, for men it is a misdemeanor. In spite of our efforts as feminists to change our position in society, we are still supposed to be decorative, whatever other qualifications we may possess. Men continue to be judged more by their accomplishments than by their appearance, although certainly the media “hunk” is gradually changing this. Nevertheless, it is women who bear most of the burden of looksism and fat-phobia in our society. While fat women receive the harshest penalties for not conforming to the standard of thinness, most women do not feel that they fit the stringent qualifications for beauty in this culture. This is awesome Tapati. I am also overweight. I've found that many single Christian men my age are more interested in my weight than anything else. The fact that I am overweight makes them not want to associate with me. It's strange, they believe they have authority over women, but their first judgement of women is their weight. And somehow women are supposed to want to be under their leadership even though they judge us on such shallow and un-Christ like grounds. Yea, exactly JLP. I know so many guys (including one guy who weighs close to 200 kgs) who all seem to think that the universe owes them a swimsuit model, and none of them have particularly nice bodies or personalities themselves.
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Post by Angelia Sparrow on Dec 21, 2009 19:22:26 GMT -5
I beg to differ on one point.
The money I spend on Weight Watchers IS money I'm putting into me. It's money I'm spending to get healthier. It's money I'm spending to avoid a gastric bypass, high cholesterol and endless pain. It is money that goes to letting me climb stairs without tears. I'm doing it for me.
My dr. was suggesting a bypass. I looked into it and said "let me try Weight Watchers. It's cheaper and one of the side effects isn't death."
The rest, spot-on.
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Post by tapati on Dec 21, 2009 19:33:56 GMT -5
I beg to differ on one point. The money I spend on Weight Watchers IS money I'm putting into me. It's money I'm spending to get healthier. It's money I'm spending to avoid a gastric bypass, high cholesterol and endless pain. It is money that goes to letting me climb stairs without tears. I'm doing it for me. My dr. was suggesting a bypass. I looked into it and said "let me try Weight Watchers. It's cheaper and one of the side effects isn't death." The rest, spot-on. Weight Watchers is one of the healthier weight loss programs and they don't promote starvation level diets, so for healthy weight loss they're a good thing. I've known all too many women for whom weight loss programs were solely a desperate attempt to quickly attain a socially acceptable body due to low self esteem. I knew one woman who gained weight so she could get her insurance to pay for a gastric bypass, all for her appearance (she had no known health problems at the time). She then developed a drinking problem but hey, she was thin! A few years later she died and I always suspected her drinking played a role in that early death. While many in the size acceptance community have a knee jerk reaction to the word diet or to weight loss programs, this is based mostly on past bad experiences with crash diets that were often well under 1000 calories. The WHO puts starvation at 900 calories or less a day. These diets are extremely unhealthy and cause the body to actually cannibalize its own muscle tissue--including the heart--in order to meet its needs. It also invariably leads to rapid weight regain including additional pounds as the body tries to defend itself from further starvation. Keep in mind that I wrote this in 1991. I've developed a different attitude to health weight loss over the years, having lost 60 lbs myself after merely exercising more and making minor changes to my diet, all while eating a substantial, non-starvation diet without extreme deprivation or hunger.
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Post by tapati on Dec 21, 2009 19:38:50 GMT -5
If it is a social crime for women to be fat, for men it is a misdemeanor. In spite of our efforts as feminists to change our position in society, we are still supposed to be decorative, whatever other qualifications we may possess. Men continue to be judged more by their accomplishments than by their appearance, although certainly the media “hunk” is gradually changing this.
Nevertheless, it is women who bear most of the burden of looksism and fat-phobia in our society. While fat women receive the harshest penalties for not conforming to the standard of thinness, most women do not feel that they fit the stringent qualifications for beauty in this culture.This is awesome Tapati. I am also overweight. I've found that many single Christian men my age are more interested in my weight than anything else. The fact that I am overweight makes them not want to associate with me. It's strange, they believe they have authority over women, but their first judgement of women is their weight. And somehow women are supposed to want to be under their leadership even though they judge us on such shallow and un-Christ like grounds. There are fat admirers but they are a small percentage of all men. It always interests me though that the non-fat admirers are often chubby or otherwise not attractive themselves, but want a "hot" woman to show off to their male friends as some sort of achievement or status symbol. They can even get downright petulant if they are turned down by such women, as if it's the woman's fault for being looksist when they are themselves! Their sense of entitlement is amazing. (I'm thinking of the health club killer and others like him who run websites devoted to bitching about how snobbish and selfish women are for not dating them.) If just one of these men would change their own looksist standards they might actually achieve a loving, satisfying relationship. But that would require some serious inner work that they are unwilling to do. It's always disappointing to find religious people buying into these notions about beauty because we expect them all to be more concerned with spirit and inner beauty and see the body as a temple. Apparently they are looking for a grand cathedral of a temple, not a normal church building, LOL.
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Post by Visitor on Dec 22, 2009 5:15:26 GMT -5
Just thought I'd mention that I tend to avoid sitting next to large people (fat, tall, muscular, whatever) on public transport, but not out of any sense of fear or revulsion at them. It's just that the bigger someone is, the harder it is to avoid the unwanted physical contact with a stranger (any stranger). This can also lead to the 'outward turning' that you mention - it 's a protective reaction to the contact, not the fat.
Not everyone acts from the same motivations I do, but I do think it's important to remember that things which feel personal are often not meant that way.
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Post by grandmalou on Dec 22, 2009 7:37:01 GMT -5
Tapati, this information is so vital to the health of everyone; thank you! "While many in the size acceptance community have a knee jerk reaction to the word diet or to weight loss programs, this is based mostly on past bad experiences with crash diets that were often well under 1000 calories. The WHO puts starvation at 900 calories or less a day. These diets are extremely unhealthy and cause the body to actually cannibalize its own muscle tissue--including the heart--in order to meet its needs. It also invariably leads to rapid weight regain including additional pounds as the body tries to defend itself from further starvation." When I was in nurse's training in 1962, one day on my lunch break I had just enough time to have the required physical exam...so for lunch I wolfed down a candy bar and a milkshake. When the nurse did a urinalysis, she found me to have a 4 + sugar count and she panicked, and the doctor told me I was diabetic. He then put me on Orinase AND a 1,000 calorie a day diet. Orinase is an oral form of insulin. I weighed a little over 100 # when going on this 'diet'...and frequently went into convulsions. I chalked it up to the side effects of Orinase. But within 3 months I was down to 80#, passed out at work one day, and the head nurse suggested I see a different doctor. I did. He said I was seriously HYPO glycemic...LOW blood sugar, and that I needed to get off the damn 1,000 calorie diet and the Orinase, and just EAT! ;D ;D ;D Which I promptly did, happily, as I had really felt like I was ready to tear the doors off all the refrigerators in my path. And God help anybody who tried to stop me!
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Post by grandmalou on Dec 22, 2009 7:47:14 GMT -5
It was that horribly skinnny "Twiggy" model back in the 70's, I betcha, that got this whole "Gotta be thin to be loved" BS. And men and women alike, with only half a brain who fell for it. Decades before that, women who were heavy were the super-models, and thought to be most beautiful. Oh, to just be loved for our brains, huh? Oy, vey.
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Post by tapati on Dec 22, 2009 10:19:46 GMT -5
Just thought I'd mention that I tend to avoid sitting next to large people (fat, tall, muscular, whatever) on public transport, but not out of any sense of fear or revulsion at them. It's just that the bigger someone is, the harder it is to avoid the unwanted physical contact with a stranger ( any stranger). This can also lead to the 'outward turning' that you mention - it 's a protective reaction to the contact, not the fat. Not everyone acts from the same motivations I do, but I do think it's important to remember that things which feel personal are often not meant that way. That may be true, although I always tended to squeeze myself into only my half of the seat so as to leave plenty of room. In some cases, facial expressions said a lot about motivation.
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Post by Vi on Dec 23, 2009 8:00:17 GMT -5
I can relate to this essay. In school I was *always* the LAST one chosen for "P.E." team sports. Typically the team members that got stuck with me would moan and groan about how awful it was.
The really funny thing about it is that I have never been overweight; quite the opposite, I am thin. But for some reason there was something so awful about me that I was a pariah. Not quite as much fun as being a Pharoah (ha ha).
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Post by tapati on Dec 23, 2009 11:59:54 GMT -5
I can relate to this essay. In school I was *always* the LAST one chosen for "P.E." team sports. Typically the team members that got stuck with me would moan and groan about how awful it was. The really funny thing about it is that I have never been overweight; quite the opposite, I am thin. But for some reason there was something so awful about me that I was a pariah. Not quite as much fun as being a Pharoah (ha ha). Yes, not everyone who was chosen last or nearly last was fat. There was always a group of us. The thing is, when you are clearly not a desired player, it makes you self conscious and more likely to make errors and fumble the ball. Then it just perpetuates your status. I will never understand why the gym teacher didn't have the sense to walk down the class line and go 1-2-1-2-1-2 etc and say ok 1s over there and 2s over here, these are the teams! So easy.
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Post by Vi on Dec 23, 2009 12:30:58 GMT -5
Yes, not everyone who was chosen last or nearly last was fat. There was always a group of us. Sometimes it seems like the really skinny kids were not well liked either. I was pretty skinny and the only time I remember picking on a another girl, it was a girl even skinnier than me! I guess people will find whatever they can to reject someone. Like Heinlein or some other brilliant author said, if you put a pink monkey in the cage with the brown monkeys, they will tear him apart...
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Dec 23, 2009 12:58:55 GMT -5
I will never understand why the gym teacher didn't have the sense to walk down the class line and go 1-2-1-2-1-2 etc and say ok 1s over there and 2s over here, these are the teams! So easy. Tapati ~ you are right ~ a number system of dividing into teams would have eliminated the problem and would have saved time too. So weird. When I was in Jr. High, we did the lines thing all the time. In gym class, I was always the last one chosen ~ because I was skinny and puny and weak ~ and I don't doubt that I stunk too since we didn't always have hot water for bathing at home. I hated P.E. ~ was totally clueless as to game rules, etc. ~ so didn't want to participate at all. So ~ being chose last seemed natural enough to me ~ but didn't make me feel any better about it. BUT ~ when it came to academic subjects ~ spelling, math, etc. ~ the teachers always chose me as team captain so it was my job to pick players for my team. I made a point of picking whoever I thought was the least desirable person to be on my team first. This was actually my way of showing off ~ because I was sure that if the teams consisted of me vs. the whole rest of the class, Team Vyckie would totally win ~ so I could afford to have some not-so-smart players on my team. Also, I knew how terrible it felt to be the last person chosen ~ so it made me feel good to relieve someone else from being in that position. And I found out that it was a great way to make some very loyal friends ~ even if all my best friends were "losers" ~ LOL I thought they were the best kind of friends to have. Such silliness ~ and yet, years later when we have perspective and should totally be able to get over it and move on ~ it still sucks to have been that person that nobody wanted to have on their team. Ugh.
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Post by amyrose on Dec 23, 2009 14:05:07 GMT -5
Like Vyckie, I was always chosen last for being little and skinny and, therefore, allegedly weak. Unless it was that damn Red Rover game where I spent the entire time running back and forth between teams because I was so little I couldn't break through the line. I hate that game and firmly believe it should be banned on playgrounds.
In fifth and sixth grade, my classmates nicknamed me "tapeworm" insisting that I was small and skinny because I had one.
A few years ago, when I was first dating my husband, an overweight colleague told me he would dump me very soon and I needed to accept that "no one wants to f*ck a bag of bones".
My mother who is a size 2 could not find an appropriate dress for my wedding because very few stores carry that size in their dress departments. She was told several times that she should buy a prom dress in the junior department. Because that's exactly what a 60+ year old woman wants to wear to her daughter's wedding.
When bra shopping a few years ago and unable to find my size, I asked for help. The response from the clerk was laughter and the answer "we don't stock anything that small, no one actually IS that small".
Women torture each other based on size and being thin is no easier than being fat.
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em
Full Member
Posts: 176
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Post by em on Dec 24, 2009 0:18:39 GMT -5
Ugh, shopping for clothes. Why can't they make a variety of sizes, since you know we come in kinds of sizes and shapes? It's ridiculous that there are only clothes to fit tall, skinny model types when very few of us are. Sorry but I don't have the time or money to get all my clothes tailored to fit. Pisses me off.
I don't remember picking teams for gym. Our gym was weird, I spent pretty much the entire time just slowly walking around the gym (you could do laps like that or play like basketball). So that's basically all we did. That and find ways to get out of swimming when that part came up (um sorry but if I have to watch a guy pee in the pool you best believe I am not getting in it. Ugh, my class was such a bunch of disgusting degerate assholes). I don't think I would have cared about being picked last though cuz I never really particapted (I just did as little as possible to not get yelled at). lol Who wants to get all gross and sweaty by running around during the school day?
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Post by vi on Dec 24, 2009 6:50:38 GMT -5
LOL I remember being put in a remedial swimming class in the 6th grade, with a couple of kids who were from the special ed class. The "teachers aides" were supposed to teach us basic swim skills but I never could really get the hang of it.
P.E. class generally sucked on so many levels. One of the teachers really seemed to hate girls. I remember it was one of the few classes I actually ditched sometimes.
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Post by Gracious on Dec 24, 2009 9:49:14 GMT -5
Ugh, shopping for clothes. Why can't they make a variety of sizes, since you know we come in kinds of sizes and shapes? It's ridiculous that there are only clothes to fit tall, skinny model types when very few of us are. Sorry but I don't have the time or money to get all my clothes tailored to fit. Pisses me off. ? Omg. I hear you. Shopping for pants makes me feel so short!!!!! They often have like 20cm of extra fabric at the end And don't get me started on trying to find pants that don't expose anything when you crouch down!!! I swear guys don't have it this hard to find figure friendly clothing. Some days I get the feeling that the clothing industry hates the female figure. I mean, you look at the models they choose for the clothing, and they all have this pre-pubescent boy look. Its like.....huh? ?
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Post by grandmalou on Dec 24, 2009 10:41:28 GMT -5
Not just clothing, but furniture is also made for tall, skinny people. Mostly 7 foot men. Both Wayne and I are 5' 3 or 4, and when we sit on anything, we have to sit on the edge of it so that we can put our feet on the floor. Otherwise we are sitting, looking very much like little kids...legs sticking straight out, half sitting, half laying...and this ain't comfortable at all for old backs! Re-gusting!' Oh...and speaking of altering pants...every pair of pants Wayne owns, has been whacked off and re-hemmed by yours truly. I use the left over fabric for little bags, quilt pieces, etc.
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Post by singingbird on Dec 24, 2009 12:22:42 GMT -5
I've never understood this division between the mind or the soul and the body. When you kick me in the shin, then my shin hurts. If some accident happens like I'm walking along and my ankle turns for no reason, as often happens to me, then an instant inner barrage of invectives against my ankle as if it is a separate being who was scheming for the perfect time to hurt me. Why is there this inner divide? Why is the body thought separate from the mind? Is it spiritual, cultural, or a part of being human? Would it be so bad to say I am my body? Is the divide part of the Fantasy of Being Thin? If we were to own up to being one unit would it be equivalent to saying that one is fat in the soul? But I'd rather be fat in the soul than thin, I'd like my soul to be abundant. Is it so terrible to say that my foot is not just a part of my body but a part of me? I am my ankles. I am my fat thighs and my round belly. There is no line. I am my body and my body is me.
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Post by amyrose on Dec 25, 2009 15:27:30 GMT -5
Ugh, shopping for clothes. Why can't they make a variety of sizes, since you know we come in kinds of sizes and shapes? It's ridiculous that there are only clothes to fit tall, skinny model types when very few of us are. Sorry but I don't have the time or money to get all my clothes tailored to fit. Pisses me off.? Uh...they aren't making them for tall skinny types. I'm 5'7" with pretty long legs (my 5'9" college roommate's pants were too short for me). I wear a size 4. You might be surprised to know that clothing manufacturers assume that if you wear below about a 10, you are relatively short or short-legged. I have a really difficult time buying pants that are long enough and the "long" or "tall" sizes some companies make are apparently for people well over six feet, so that's no help, either. Sometimes I do buy those and wear heels or have my mom shorten them. My mother, on the other hand, is a size 0 or 2 and about 5'1" (the height comes from Dad's side!). She can buy petites or shorten pants, but nothing comes with a big enough hem to let out anymore for me. And while there are plus sized specialty stores, there are fewer and fewer stores carrying women's sizes below 6--the assumption being that if you wear that small of a size, you must be a teen and want to shop in juniors anyway. Those that do carry work appropriate/professional clothes in my size are rather expensive as well.
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Post by Vi on Dec 25, 2009 15:49:13 GMT -5
Uh...they aren't making them for tall skinny types. I'm 5'7" with pretty long legs (my 5'9" college roommate's pants were too short for me). I wear a size 4. You might be surprised to know that clothing manufacturers assume that if you wear below about a 10, you are relatively short or short-legged. I have a really difficult time buying pants that are long enough and the "long" or "tall" sizes some companies make are apparently for people well over six feet, so that's no help, either. Well said, I had thought about posting the same thing but didn't want to come off as a skinny bitch or saying that other posters were wrong. I have long felt that clothes are made mostly for little short folk (maybe cause they are mostly coming from china nowadays and peopls tend to be smaller there? i don't know). anyway it seems like it is hard to buy clothes no matter what size you are and we all could do with better standards in terms of the garment industry.
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em
Full Member
Posts: 176
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Post by em on Dec 25, 2009 23:08:25 GMT -5
Lol. It's funny that we all think they only make clothing for the opposite body type of what we are. (Just proof clothes manufacturers suck if you ask me.)
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