*~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~* It is a most insidious drug which must be administered to others in order to achieve its desired effects for oneself. ~ Marie Winn *~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~*
Re: What Angel really needed ... « Reply #1 on Apr 28, 2009, 3:42pm »
Wow, that's powerful stuff. Angel is absolutely beautiful. It seems apparent in your kids and how they have processed some of this stuff, that they realize that you always loved them. Even though there were somethings that you could see later were wrong, you were doing all of that stuff because you loved them and at the time were convinced that it was the best for them. I don't know if I am communicating clearly here, but it comes down to the fact that kids know when you really love them no matter what mistakes you make.
Re: What Angel really needed ... « Reply #3 on Apr 28, 2009, 4:13pm »
What I find most interesting about the story (aside from the emotional resonance, of course) is that Angel had what for all intents and purposes was a genuine diagnosable psychosis, but one that was, it turns out, entirely situational rather than biological. That seems a pretty damning indictment of the patriarchal quiverfull movement, one that deserves more play--particularly if other with similar experiences join the chorus.
Re: What Angel really needed ... « Reply #5 on Apr 28, 2009, 6:03pm »
To be Heard is even more important than merely to be loved. I was sitting with my 91 year old neighbor yesterday and we were talking about life stuff and I told her I had some health issues that were worrying me and she started to tell me all kinds of comforting things—stories about people she knew who had “thought they had this or that” but it turned out to be nothing. And then she caught herself and said, almost angrily, “but we can't say its nothing. No we can't. We don't have the right to say that!” Meaning that denying the reality of what someone else is going through, even with the best of intentions, does a violence to that person and to the relationship. We don't have the right to wish away someone else's pain, or hide our eyes from it, or offer them false comfort. We have a duty to be there, to hear them express themselves, and simply say, honestly “that's hard. I feel for you.” I was so blown away by her honesty and by her courage because you know it is courageous to face up, at any age, to the fact that platitudes and nice sentiments aren't enough for real and true relationships.
More power to you, Vyckie and all your children. Whatever mistakes you made, as a mother Vyckie, you have really courageously taken up your children's cause in a way that is utterly honest and true. And I think that that pays off, in the end, far more than never making a mistake.
What I find most interesting about the story (aside from the emotional resonance, of course) is that Angel had what for all intents and purposes was a genuine diagnosable psychosis, but one that was, it turns out, entirely situational rather than biological. That seems a pretty damning indictment of the patriarchal quiverfull movement, one that deserves more play--particularly if other with similar experiences join the chorus.
It's the logical outcome of trying to force yourself to fit into an intolerable and crazy situation where reality has been turned on its head.
To be Heard is even more important than merely to be loved. I was sitting with my 91 year old neighbor yesterday and we were talking about life stuff and I told her I had some health issues that were worrying me and she started to tell me all kinds of comforting things—stories about people she knew who had “thought they had this or that” but it turned out to be nothing. And then she caught herself and said, almost angrily, “but we can't say its nothing. No we can't. We don't have the right to say that!” Meaning that denying the reality of what someone else is going through, even with the best of intentions, does a violence to that person and to the relationship. We don't have the right to wish away someone else's pain, or hide our eyes from it, or offer them false comfort. We have a duty to be there, to hear them express themselves, and simply say, honestly “that's hard. I feel for you.” I was so blown away by her honesty and by her courage because you know it is courageous to face up, at any age, to the fact that platitudes and nice sentiments aren't enough for real and true relationships.
aimai
*Applause*
Thanks for articulating what I've been trying to figure out how to say when people respond to my own health challenges with the many stories of those who've overcome or been cured or lived to x years!
May I quote it on my blog when I write about it sometime soon?
Re: What Angel really needed ... « Reply #11 on Apr 30, 2009, 1:12am »
Vyckie, you have shown a phenomenal amount of courage and integrity by admitting your partial responsibility for Angel's abuse both to her and to us, and by becoming truly and consistently supportive of her. I did some online peer counseling work with troubled teens a few years ago and for probably half or more of them, the common denominator was abusive parenting. In many cases it was emotional abuse within the context of a generally loving parent-teen relationship, but even that kind of abuse causes damage and pain, including mental health problems. I, too, have been mistreated by my mother in that way, mainly resulting from her severe mishandling of my ADHD.
I have never heard of another abusive parent realizing the effects of their actions and repenting to the extent that you have, Vyckie. My mom has improved her behaviour a lot, but she hasn't acknowledged how she hurt me in the past the way you have with Angel. You understand that you were the one who brought the damaging ideas into your family, and you seem to even understand that minimizing Angel's natural responses to Warren's abuse was itself emotionally abusive on your part. Your supporting Angel and posting frankly about this takes tremendous moral courage, and you deserve serious kudos for it. You are a role model for parents of depressed children, teens, and young adults.
Re: What Angel really needed ... « Reply #12 on Apr 30, 2009, 7:52am »
I did not grow up in a QF environment (too old!) but I was enmeshed with my mother. Everything I did was a reflection on my mother, and I was seen like an appendage of hers that would not work properly, as some have described things.
In its way, it is like alcoholism. Every good feeling is based upon performance and comparison, not really upon resting in who one is in Christ or even really acknowledging that we are all frail and fallible. It all boils down to a way that we medicate our shame. Some people do it through substance abuse. Patriarchy does it through the use of legalism.
I have seen many mothers admit their hypocrisy and abuse to their young daughters, and I so longed for my mother to do so with me but never has. She is far more trapped than I am which amazes me, as I felt so hopeless for so long. The problem with patriarchy is that the people who do come out of the lifestyle and do repent don't talk about it as Vyckie and Laura have. When you leave, if you want to remain within the confines of Christianity, there is still much fear of nearly guaranteed ridicule and rejection. I know a few mothers who have read this material on NLQ, but they do not talk as they still feel constrained.
What Vyckie has done is so vital and courageous for that reason. It gives people permission to breathe, even though they might not be discussing anything openly. The experience is more common than people would like to think.
Thank you! Though my blog entry may have to wait until after my trip next week to see my daughter and grandchildren. I can't think about much else right now!
![[Home]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/topics.png "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif "[Search]")
![[Calendar]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/calendar.gif "[Calendar]")
![[Login]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif "[Login]")
![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
![[avatar]](http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv126/vyckieb/100_5752a.jpg "[avatar]"){kind=small}
![[homepage]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif "[homepage]")
Logged
![[avatar]](http://img1.jurko.net/avatar_6266.gif "[avatar]"){kind=avatar}
![[avatar]](http://www.gaudiya-repercussions.com/ups/av-2.jpg "[avatar]")