Joined: Jun 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 144 Karma: 7
Re: “Whatever it takes" « Reply #50 on May 17, 2010, 9:13am »
It's not just you! We can probably all site examples! Here are a couple: My great aunt and uncle were "pillars" in the Church & community [school teachers & later very beloved High School principal] Church prayed with them while son was in Vietnam, etc, etc. Great Aunt developed cancer in late 60s [when it WAS almost always a death sentence] NOT A WORD. Not a casserole. Not a flower. Not a card. They never went back and no one, NOT ONE SOUL, follow up.
I imagine [and it is just "imagine"] they are afraid either that you will be totally hostile or that they might agree with you. You know better than most how hard it is to live a perfect life all the time! Many, many folks in Church want to be honest but are afraid to. Maybe they don't really believe, maybe they are unsure, maybe they KNOW this is not the life for them, but they still truly love & believe in the Lord.
I've been thru it too and that's when I changed Churches. You know what? I found a much more honest group!! I could not get thru the day thinking I was "alone" in this--I need my faith, but I haven't had your experience with it. Reading your story, I understand why you are out of the Church--likely I would be too!
I don't find your piece whinny or self-pitying at all--it's honest. That's good!
Re: “Whatever it takes" « Reply #51 on May 17, 2010, 9:43am »
Wow ~ what a tremendous response to my big whine ~ !
I don't even know where to begin to respond to all the encouragement and insightful comments in this thread. I'm hoping to get a chance later this afternoon to read back through all the comments and post some thoughts.
I am feeling quite a lot better lately ~ the worst of the symptoms are mostly gone ~ though I did feel panicky enough yesterday evening that I took an anti-anxiety pill ~ that was the only time in over a week. Considering the Jerry Springer-style drama that's been going on around here lately ~ I would have expected my symptoms to get much worse ~ but I've actually felt mostly good which encourages me to think that this episode of low blood pressure-induced pain, depression, and anxiety is mostly over.
Even the pencil shaving smell is gone except for an occasional whiff. I thought for a few days that the hallucination was morphing into another smell ~ but, today ~ my sense of smell seems normal ~ which I'm loving because now I can enjoy the lilacs that are blooming in my back yard.
For those who missed it ~ I did get the results back from the MRI ~ everything looked normal ~ so that's a relief. I am still planning to consult with an endocrinologist ~ and I have an appt. with a rheumatologist in June.
Anyway ~ weird how the symptoms come and go like that ~ seemingly randomly ~ at least, I have not been able to figure out any sort of pattern so far. I'm just grateful to have energy and enthusiasm again ~ hooray
As usual ~ I have a bunch of catching up to do. If you've emailed or PM'd me ~ please be patient ~ I'm kind of buried under a pile of notes that I really do have every intention of responding to.
So ~ that's the update ~ I'll try to write more later.
*~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~* It is a most insidious drug which must be administered to others in order to achieve its desired effects for oneself. ~ Marie Winn *~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~**~*~*
Joined: Feb 2010 Gender: Female Posts: 13 Karma: 2
Re: “Whatever it takes" « Reply #52 on May 17, 2010, 8:29pm »
V, the message in fundamentalism that is reinforced again and again is that "out there" is evil, bad, and one gigantic slippery slope. How many times have you heard testimonies from people who described, sometimes in voyeuristic detail, about their "fallen" lives. Always to be contrasted about how beautiful, sweet, fulfilling, and otherwise perfect their lives are now living in the sunshine of god's love, after some dramatic turning back moment. (Bullet in the head, though, may take the cake.)
It's black/white thinking. "In here" = good. "Out there" = bad. You're out there now, and if you're not miserable, debauched, ruined...well, that threatens their foundation, now, doesn't it? Forgive them for being scared of you.
Aside: any time I hear "slippery slope" -- like ohmygawd if we let x happen, it's a slippery slope -- I can't help but picture a Slip N Slide in my mind.
Live your life. From what I see here, you are loved.
Re: “Whatever it takes" « Reply #53 on May 19, 2010, 1:02pm »
Vyckie, hang in there. Life is going to be fairly rough for about a year or so. Pastor Tom is right. But that doesn't mean you have to go back to a spiritual abuser any more than you have to return to a physical abuser.
El is a jealous god and he hates it when his sheep wander off. He will do anything to get you back, up to and including killing your whole family so you have nowhere left to turn. I know several families to whom this has happened, including an attempt on my own children when I walked away for good.
You need to make a formal renunciation of Christianity, clear your house of all content and let El know in no uncertain tems that you are not his, your children are not his and that he has no power or recognition in this place. It may feel silly, when you no longer believe, but it will help.
And yes, the other 99 sheep are standing there bleating "whatever it takes." That imprecatory prayer is baneful magic being worked against you and yours. And that much foul energy being released in a specific direction is going to have consequences.
Vyckie, hang in there. Life is going to be fairly rough for about a year or so. Pastor Tom is right. But that doesn't mean you have to go back to a spiritual abuser any more than you have to return to a physical abuser.
El is a jealous god and he hates it when his sheep wander off. He will do anything to get you back, up to and including killing your whole family so you have nowhere left to turn. I know several families to whom this has happened, including an attempt on my own children when I walked away for good.
You need to make a formal renunciation of Christianity, clear your house of all content and let El know in no uncertain tems that you are not his, your children are not his and that he has no power or recognition in this place. It may feel silly, when you no longer believe, but it will help.
And yes, the other 99 sheep are standing there bleating "whatever it takes." That imprecatory prayer is baneful magic being worked against you and yours. And that much foul energy being released in a specific direction is going to have consequences.
I hardly know what to say to this. It's one view of Christianity, I suppose-- but it has nothing to do with Christianity as I understand or practice it. Its founder said to those who wanted to call down curses on those who disagreed with them, "You don't know what spirit you are of."
Though I am a "sheep," I wish you nothing but healing, love and joy, Vyckie.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 2:21pm by krwordgazer »
Yeah, it sounds pagan to me, too, but that doesn't make it okay.
I'm sure you mean well, Angelia Sparrow, but your message of you should be afraid only panders to the lies Vyckie is already being told, that she needs to go back to Jesus/El/Jehovah/whatever in order to avoid almost unspeakable (except you spoke them) supernatural repercussions. There are a lot of us here who believe that's total bollocks, and have our own experiences to back it up. I spent a lot of time tiptoeing around Branhamism, afraid to say anything that might 'blaspheme' the 'prophet' lest I immediately be stricken down in horrible torments. When I finally started to speak, all I found was more freedom. Life got better. Since then, I've found that the universe is pretty neutral. Good and bad things happen, and they mostly stem from my own choices. Life has been getting steadily better for all four years that I've been out, with a few hurdles that would have happened whether I left or not (like my grandmother dying of a long illness).
Your statement vindicates the twisted, sick god of fundamentalist Christianity from the outside by asserting that he still has some kind of power over Vyckie, who no longer believes he even exists. (Many Christians, like KR, who actively worship him, don't believe he is so vengeful and cruel. Are they wrong?) This is just as presumptuous as the Christians who are telling Vyckie she'll be punished or rewarded despite her disbelief because they know better. You're telling her that she's in denial of the spirit world and she'd better play it safe - just like the fundamentalist Christians who are telling her to go back to the fold just in case there is a hell. It's an incredibly triggering statement to make to people who have spent their whole lives being threatened and coerced into performing rituals that are meaningless to us, or in which we have sought in vain for meaning. Fearmongering is not helpful or welcome here.
Besides, I'm pretty sure that Vyckie announcing her disbelief here on No Longer Quivering should count as a thoroughly severed tie with Christianity. Or can spirits not read?
Yes, I was pretty sure it was pagan, Jemand, but I was still pretty floored by it. Though I do think that the version of God as presented by coercive, fundamentalist cults like The Message is an evil, twisted version, it's not fun to have someone say that the religion I practice is no different. I wasn't aware that some forms of paganism present all of Christianity in this light. It makes me sort of understand how a Muslim might feel when Christians insist that Islam is a religion of terrorism.
It's hard to have someone tell you what your beliefs are and have them bear no resemblance to what you actually believe. It upsets me, but I still want to respond without judgment towards Angelina, as best I can, because I don't fully know where she's coming from, and I do know how much pain the malpractice of my faith has caused and continues to cause.
Yes, I was pretty sure it was pagan, Jemand, but I was still pretty floored by it. Though I do think that the version of God as presented by coercive, fundamentalist cults like The Message is an evil, twisted version, it's not fun to have someone say that the religion I practice is no different. I wasn't aware that some forms of paganism present all of Christianity in this light. It makes me sort of understand how a Muslim might feel when Christians insist that Islam is a religion of terrorism.
It's hard to have someone tell you what your beliefs are and have them bear no resemblance to what you actually believe. It upsets me, but I still want to respond without judgment towards Angelina, as best I can, because I don't fully know where she's coming from, and I do know how much pain the malpractice of my faith has caused and continues to cause.
Yeah, clearly the comment was uncalled for and Sierra described a lot of things wrong with it...
Honestly though I find it not all that triggering personally, paganism today has no large cultural support behind it, no assumption of truth or awesomeness operating as a cover for abusive or traumatic fringes of it. I react much worse to someone who is espousing beliefs that are off the wall AND covered by large and powerful social enforcement mechanisms.
Kind of the difference between time-cube guy and the global warming deniers, for example...
Re: “Whatever it takes" « Reply #59 on May 19, 2010, 4:10pm »
Thank you Sierra and kr! I wouldn't have known what to say about Angelia's post and you put it just right. Like kr, I am very sad about what people have suffered in the name of my religion and I'm more than ready to admit that it is used to justify cruelty very often. I am very sure that this is what happens to any religion/worldview: Good people will turn it into a good thing and sick people will make it into something sick. Maybe monotheists need to be extra careful because of universal truth claims that make it easy to be rigid, legalistic, cruel ... Anyway, I'd consider myself a sheep and I don't bleat "whatever it takes", I wish Vyckie only well.
Yes, I was pretty sure it was pagan, Jemand, but I was still pretty floored by it. Though I do think that the version of God as presented by coercive, fundamentalist cults like The Message is an evil, twisted version, it's not fun to have someone say that the religion I practice is no different.
What does fun have to do with it? I can think of a lot of things that are not fun that are also good - root canals, balancing my checkbook, mammograms, long plane rides to get to someplace that is fun being a few examples. I'm not saying Angela's post fits in this category, but describing her post as "not fun" is irrelevant to its truth or falsehood, or usefulness or uselessness.
I don't see what the problem with Angela's post is, myself. I don't agree with her, but my not agreeing with a post isn't the measure of whether it should have been posted. It's interesting to me to see how her religion views El, the Canaanite god. I see Angela's post as being similar to other posters' recommendations for herbal remedies. I'm not going to take the advice, but I'm not going to take offense at it, either.
I don't see what the problem with Angela's post is, myself. I don't agree with her, but my not agreeing with a post isn't the measure of whether it should have been posted. It's interesting to me to see how her religion views El, the Canaanite god. I see Angela's post as being similar to other posters' recommendations for herbal remedies. I'm not going to take the advice, but I'm not going to take offense at it, either.
It wasn't so much the advice that was triggering, but the assertion that if Vyckie doesn't follow it, her children will die. I assume that anyone is welcome to suggest that Vyckie purge/purify her home and formally break away from Christianity in a personal, ritualistic way. However, the threat explicitly tacked on to this suggestion is identical to the one posed by Pastor Tom, and that's what's not cool.
I think that Angelia spoke out of genuine concern for Vyckie, and there is nothing wrong with holding a little personal separation ceremony if it helps Vyckie separate herself from the bad, but I don't find it appropriate to support the fundamentalist notion that there is a god out there who will kill Vyckie's children if she doesn't play along.
An aside: This particular threat, while it terrified me growing up, doesn't seem logically consistent - when do children stop becoming pawns in the punishment of someone else's 'sins' and start becoming people in their own right? How can any of us be sure at any moment that we won't drop dead because God is trying to teach somebody else a lesson? Most importantly, how does that fit any model of justice? I thought for a long time that I was destined to die to make my father repent... they told stories of such things in my church. It was particularly horrifying when you imagined that God had planned your birth (yes, this was Calvinist) just to kill you to get one of your parents to tow the line.
Yes, I was pretty sure it was pagan, Jemand, but I was still pretty floored by it. Though I do think that the version of God as presented by coercive, fundamentalist cults like The Message is an evil, twisted version, it's not fun to have someone say that the religion I practice is no different.
What does fun have to do with it? I can think of a lot of things that are not fun that are also good - root canals, balancing my checkbook, mammograms, long plane rides to get to someplace that is fun being a few examples. I'm not saying Angela's post fits in this category, but describing her post as "not fun" is irrelevant to its truth or falsehood, or usefulness or uselessness.
I don't see what the problem with Angela's post is, myself. I don't agree with her, but my not agreeing with a post isn't the measure of whether it should have been posted. It's interesting to me to see how her religion views El, the Canaanite god. I see Angela's post as being similar to other posters' recommendations for herbal remedies. I'm not going to take the advice, but I'm not going to take offense at it, either.
I remember a few months back, a person came to this forum and spent a lot of time talking about "what atheists believe" about the origins of the universe and a number of other topics. A good many atheists found it "not fun" -- as in offensive-- to be told what atheism, and those philosophical systems containing atheism, were supposed to be all about, regardless of what they themselves thought about the matter.
What I am expressing now is neither more nor less than was expressed then.
I don't see what the problem with Angela's post is, myself. I don't agree with her, but my not agreeing with a post isn't the measure of whether it should have been posted. It's interesting to me to see how her religion views El, the Canaanite god. I see Angela's post as being similar to other posters' recommendations for herbal remedies. I'm not going to take the advice, but I'm not going to take offense at it, either.
It wasn't so much the advice that was triggering, but the assertion that if Vyckie doesn't follow it, her children will die. I assume that anyone is welcome to suggest that Vyckie purge/purify her home and formally break away from Christianity in a personal, ritualistic way. However, the threat explicitly tacked on to this suggestion is identical to the one posed by Pastor Tom, and that's what's not cool.
What does fun have to do with it? I can think of a lot of things that are not fun that are also good - root canals, balancing my checkbook, mammograms, long plane rides to get to someplace that is fun being a few examples. I'm not saying Angela's post fits in this category, but describing her post as "not fun" is irrelevant to its truth or falsehood, or usefulness or uselessness.
I don't see what the problem with Angela's post is, myself. I don't agree with her, but my not agreeing with a post isn't the measure of whether it should have been posted. It's interesting to me to see how her religion views El, the Canaanite god. I see Angela's post as being similar to other posters' recommendations for herbal remedies. I'm not going to take the advice, but I'm not going to take offense at it, either.
I remember a few months back, a person came to this forum and spent a lot of time talking about "what atheists believe" about the origins of the universe and a number of other topics. A good many atheists found it "not fun" -- as in offensive-- to be told what atheism, and those philosophical systems containing atheism, were supposed to be all about, regardless of what they themselves thought about the matter.
What I am expressing now is neither more nor less than was expressed then.
I don't think Angelia was trying to tell you what Christians believe. I think she was talking about what she believes. I can understand your being offended if someone says that as a Christian you believe that God will kill your children if you offend God. I think what Angelia was saying is that as a pagan she sees El as a vengeful, jealous God, not that she thinks you do.
I remember a few months back, a person came to this forum and spent a lot of time talking about "what atheists believe" about the origins of the universe and a number of other topics. A good many atheists found it "not fun" -- as in offensive-- to be told what atheism, and those philosophical systems containing atheism, were supposed to be all about, regardless of what they themselves thought about the matter.
What I am expressing now is neither more nor less than was expressed then.
I don't think Angelia was trying to tell you what Christians believe. I think she was talking about what she believes. I can understand your being offended if someone says that as a Christian you believe that God will kill your children if you offend God. I think what Angelia was saying is that as a pagan she sees El as a vengeful, jealous God, not that she thinks you do.
I agree. But it came across as "Because I believe this, you have to do the following to prevent catastrophe." It did not acknowledge the fact that there are people of various beliefs on the site, including those who do not believe in any god. Or the fact that Vyckie herself has said that she does not believe in the Christian god at this point.
As an agnostic pagan myself, it is kind of like when someone accuses me of being a satanist and my response is "I don't believe in Satan. You have to believe in something in order to worship it. In fact, in order to be a Satanist, you first have to be Christian. You have to admit that the Christian god is good and that you are rebelling by worshiping Satan. I do not believe in either the Christian god or Satan." Granted, this hasn't happened in a while because these days I am more apathetic agnostic than pagan.
I don't think Angelia was trying to tell you what Christians believe. I think she was talking about what she believes. I can understand your being offended if someone says that as a Christian you believe that God will kill your children if you offend God. I think what Angelia was saying is that as a pagan she sees El as a vengeful, jealous God, not that she thinks you do.
I agree. But it came across as "Because I believe this, you have to do the following to prevent catastrophe." It did not acknowledge the fact that there are people of various beliefs on the site, including those who do not believe in any god. Or the fact that Vyckie herself has said that she does not believe in the Christian god at this point.
As an agnostic pagan myself, it is kind of like when someone accuses me of being a satanist and my response is "I don't believe in Satan. You have to believe in something in order to worship it. In fact, in order to be a Satanist, you first have to be Christian. You have to admit that the Christian god is good and that you are rebelling by worshiping Satan. I do not believe in either the Christian god or Satan." Granted, this hasn't happened in a while because these days I am more apathetic agnostic than pagan.
Is that bit true about having to believe the Christian god was good as a satanist? I thought it was at least one belief that satan was the good one and the portrayal was warped by the bad god, el, or whatever. Or, alternatively, both paths were valid and good but for different people, which would posit that parts of Christianity that state Satan was evil or there only being one way weren't correct but that other parts could be valid for other people...
I agree. But it came across as "Because I believe this, you have to do the following to prevent catastrophe." It did not acknowledge the fact that there are people of various beliefs on the site, including those who do not believe in any god. Or the fact that Vyckie herself has said that she does not believe in the Christian god at this point.
As an agnostic pagan myself, it is kind of like when someone accuses me of being a satanist and my response is "I don't believe in Satan. You have to believe in something in order to worship it. In fact, in order to be a Satanist, you first have to be Christian. You have to admit that the Christian god is good and that you are rebelling by worshiping Satan. I do not believe in either the Christian god or Satan." Granted, this hasn't happened in a while because these days I am more apathetic agnostic than pagan.
Is that bit true about having to believe the Christian god was good as a satanist? I thought it was at least one belief that satan was the good one and the portrayal was warped by the bad god, el, or whatever. Or, alternatively, both paths were valid and good but for different people, which would posit that parts of Christianity that state Satan was evil or there only being one way weren't correct but that other parts could be valid for other people...
But I may be way out of my depth here.
It depends on who you talk to. But the classic Le Vey style of Satanism is a deliberate mocking of the Catholic church. The rituals mimic Catholic mass but make fun of it. I have run into a couple of people who claim to be satanists but who don't subscribe to the Le Vey stuff but I never paid them much attention because I didn't care much for those particular individuals. I haven't made any sort of study on the subject.
But in any case, you need to actually believe in something in order to worship it.
I remember a few months back, a person came to this forum and spent a lot of time talking about "what atheists believe" about the origins of the universe and a number of other topics. A good many atheists found it "not fun" -- as in offensive-- to be told what atheism, and those philosophical systems containing atheism, were supposed to be all about, regardless of what they themselves thought about the matter.
What I am expressing now is neither more nor less than was expressed then.
I don't think Angelia was trying to tell you what Christians believe. I think she was talking about what she believes. I can understand your being offended if someone says that as a Christian you believe that God will kill your children if you offend God. I think what Angelia was saying is that as a pagan she sees El as a vengeful, jealous God, not that she thinks you do.
Coleslaw, as you know, there are a lot of Christians who believe atheism means having no morals. I'm sure you don't enjoy it, that they believe that-- or what such a belief says about you, as a person.
I'm sure it bothers pagans when people think paganism is about worshiping demons, drinking the blood of owls, dancing naked under the full moon, and sticking pins in dolls representing your enemies.
Angelina, you seemed to me to be saying two things about me as a Christian-- that I worship a god who kills children (knowingly or otherwise-- one of which reflects very poorly on my character and the other on my intelligence), and that I was bleating "whatever it takes" to that god, about Vyckie and her children. In the friendliest way that I can, I'm trying to say that this did (I hope quite understandably!) bother me, and that I strongly feel this is a misrepresentation of Christianity, and consequently of me. I have walked my own hard journey out of coercive, ugly religious beliefs. I want to be believed, that I have indeed come out of them, and not be tarred with that brush all over again.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 7:18pm by krwordgazer »
Re: “Whatever it takes" « Reply #69 on May 19, 2010, 8:28pm »
I, likewise, would like to remind people that there are as many flavors of pagan as there are of Christian or atheists etc., and that my take on things differs from that expressed by Angelia. I probably wouldn't choose to tell Vyckie that her children are in danger etc. I do get the theory that so many people sending ill wishes their way can have an effect--but I think that is balanced by so many more people sending good wishes her way.
I don't think Angelia was trying to tell you what Christians believe. I think she was talking about what she believes. I can understand your being offended if someone says that as a Christian you believe that God will kill your children if you offend God. I think what Angelia was saying is that as a pagan she sees El as a vengeful, jealous God, not that she thinks you do.
Coleslaw, as you know, there are a lot of Christians who believe atheism means having no morals. I'm sure you don't enjoy it, that they believe that-- or what such a belief says about you, as a person.
Such a belief doesn't say anything about me as a person.
BTW, technically I'm still a Methodist. So I really do have no morals.
Re: “Whatever it takes" « Reply #71 on May 19, 2010, 10:21pm »
So why all the outrage when Vyckie's friend from her old life, a christian fundamentalist, asks her which child she would choose to have killed to avoid having been QF.. BUT we get someone posting that God could kill Vyckie's whole family and it's all about tolerance and respecting different beliefs?
Quote:
El is a jealous god and he hates it when his sheep wander off. He will do anything to get you back, up to and including killing your whole family so you have nowhere left to turn.
This is total shit. Fear inducing threat. It is not somehow less so because someone believes it. It is not a belief worthy of respect in any way.
FOR HEAVENS SAKE PEOPLE read Sierra's recent blog post if you want to understand the soul destroying damage religious fear does to a person. This post was nothing but the same crap. If Siriusly had posted it you would have all been apoplectic!!
Re: “Whatever it takes" « Reply #72 on May 20, 2010, 10:02am »
I'm used to the idea - not that I believe in it - that there's only two types of people, God-fearing fundamentalist Christians and virgin-killing Satanists. And the idea that everyone else is a Satanist goes back to none other than that damn Paul, based on a reading of 1 Corinthians 10.20 "I do say that those things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God".
Naturally that must mean I, as a non-fundamentalist, am to them a virgin-killing Satanist, even though I'm every bit as Christian as they are! *ugh*
Coleslaw, as you know, there are a lot of Christians who believe atheism means having no morals. I'm sure you don't enjoy it, that they believe that-- or what such a belief says about you, as a person.
Such a belief doesn't say anything about me as a person.
BTW, technically I'm still a Methodist. So I really do have no morals.
Ok. But if someone were to say that about atheism, here and now on this forum-- would you be bothered at all? Would you speak up in protest?
If you wouldn't, then I guess that's just something we don't have in common.
(Doctrinally, I'm a Methodist, though "technically" I'm Independent Christian-- so we do sort of have at least that name that in common. )
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 12:49pm by krwordgazer »
Such a belief doesn't say anything about me as a person.
BTW, technically I'm still a Methodist. So I really do have no morals.
Ok. But if someone were to say that about atheism, here and now on this forum-- would you be bothered at all? Would you speak up in protest?
If you wouldn't, then I guess that's just something we don't have in common.
(Doctrinally, I'm a Methodist, though "technically" I'm Independent Christian-- so we do sort of have at least that name that in common. )
I used to belong to an anti-Dr. Laura newsgroup. It was very common for Dr. Laura fans to say that the only reason for people not to like Dr. Laura was that we did not want to be held to her high moral standards.
Whenever anyone said that to me, I asked them to tell me what specifically I had done in my life that they found to be immoral.
If someone were to say here and now on this forum that atheism means having no morals, I would ask them the same thing - what specifically I have done in my life that they find to be immoral.
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