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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 15, 2009 10:31:45 GMT -5
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Post by rosa on Sept 15, 2009 12:27:50 GMT -5
This is an astounding post, Vyckie. I'm glad you're finding us heathens to be benevolent, though.
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Post by mariaf on Sept 15, 2009 12:34:08 GMT -5
HI, Vyckie,
This has to be quick, and so is in no way a response to all of your well thought out post. I agree with 99.9 % of it -- But, a house where the 2nd biggest expense after food is BOOKS sounds like a good thing to me (of course it would be different books from the ones you mention, lol)
Also, I was a single working mom like you are now (the blog and the book proposal are a job, besides there is no such thing as a non working mother) I know I only had 2 kids and you have 7, but I wish I had relied less on convenience foods. Alot of what they put in those is so bad for us. Besides, the food manufacturers are totally in it for the money.
Just my two cents. Maria
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glass
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by glass on Sept 15, 2009 13:07:54 GMT -5
I've read NLQ enthusiastically from the beginning of the blog, and have lurked a very long time without posting anything. I was raised christian, but my parents encouraged learning and curiosity. Of course, we children applied what we were taught to what we were told, to the disappointment of our parents.
I consider myself atheist, and like nearly all atheists, believe that there probably is no god. Those who say they know there is not are as dogmatic and unreasonable as religious extremists, and can't really be engaged in a discussion.
I feel like this is jacking the point of your original post (profit motive etc.), but I felt compelled to write because this is the first time in NLQ that I've seen atheists pointed out as being particularly threatening to the QF mindset/beliefs. I'm sure you've read, as have I, that atheists are the most distrusted minority in America. Can you ex-QFers and ex-extremists help me understand the fear and hate aimed at atheists by so many?
Also, Vyckie, you mentioned that you saw your house and family like a bunker, where it was you against the world. I think it might be worthwhile to post about the perceptions and fears you were told to embrace as you moved into the QF lifestyle. Your own reading, which you cited in this post, pointed out fear as a tool for gaining power and money. What are the true fears of QF parents, do you think? (Wordly fears...not just the "my children won't get into heaven!" fears...but those too.)
Thanks for reading this, everyone, and ciao for now!
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Post by hopewell on Sept 15, 2009 15:07:14 GMT -5
This post is so, so true! I was "raised by liberal wolves" and became a Christian in my late 30s. Naturally wanted to raise my kids "differently." We've homeschooled and gone to public school and Christian School. Now both are in public school. The things Christians "fear" are stuff like having your kid read "Heather Has Two Mommies" in kindergarten [one of the most boring books ever] having to explain how you CAN have 2 Mommies or having people say the Bible is just a book. I've found the public schools we've attended--even a very urban one-- had mostly "middle of the road" teachers, no radical agendas, just rampant dumbing down of all curriculua.
I've also watched families with a "bunker" mentality--kids never play with anyone not in the familie's home Church etc. The listen to Focus on the Family as though Jim Dobson was on Mount Siani giving the 11--21st Commandments. The believe all the hype about "secular humanism" which most educated people can take with a large dose of salt.
I think your story has shown that for many the hyped fears become the reality, the "home Church" or Church is the total extra-family existence for an intellectually-starved, overworked, under nourished woman. It's the only support network. When that's all you have you must desperately trust it--even in the face of illogic. Sad, so very, very sad.
I almost took the Home Church, route. We were, briefly, in a homeschool sports group. I noticed all were in this home Church. Although I was a single mom since it was via adoption I was invited--I could be company for the one widow I guess. Something didn't "smell" right to me. We didn't go back. Now I know why--QF, Patriarchy, Vision Forum--these people and their foreign language of names and books I'd never heard of [strange that a librarian hasn't heard of some of them!] set off too many warning bells.
I feel for the women who, though they can hear those bells, smell that smell, are to scared to get out. That the true sign you are in a cult. You are more frightened of leaving the false security of controling people than to face the fearful unknown of freedom.
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Post by cereselle on Sept 15, 2009 15:28:46 GMT -5
Pardon me for being shallow. But why didn't all the girls have long hair? Were they being mini-Jezebels?
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Post by pennygirl on Sept 15, 2009 16:57:33 GMT -5
i do not want to bring politics into this mix But wanted to mention I follow a pretty "screaming liberal" blog .. that is honing in on topics of the religion, home schooling, ect.. of the "far right" They are trying to figure out, and bring to light.. why there is so much anger and fear in the christian movement today One of the postings in Vyckie's book talked about Clinton in the 80's .. Bubba the anti christ and Hilary (Jezebel) trying to bring socialism to all I was like.. hello now.. that sounds so similar to what is going on today Anyways.. here is the blog Perhaps insight into why people have these feelings may be something people can comment on. Right now they see the "right wing Christians" as a bunch of loons Ive tried to post a few comments .. that they are kindof at the mercy of what is being preached at the pulpit and alot is fear driven anyways.. a recent topic was home schooling. They don't knock it.. they only knock when it is used to shield kids from the real world trying to tell them the world is evil. anyways.. here is the blog if anyone is interested I think they could use insight from a christian perspective as to why the Christians today seem so warped.. theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/Here is the posting on Home schooling: theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2009/09/hot-potato-issue-of-day-homeschooling.html#comments
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jlp
Junior Member
Posts: 54
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Post by jlp on Sept 15, 2009 19:17:41 GMT -5
I hadn't realized that so much of this was about money. Years ago a young woman called all the Christian material being sold as "Christian capitalism." After reading your post I finally get what she meant.
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Post by philosophia on Sept 15, 2009 23:22:22 GMT -5
I blush to state that once I bought a case of "Created to Be His Helpmeet" to give away.
Ack!
Yesterday, I gave my attorney "To Train Up a Child" so he could understand the former mindset of child discipline in our house.
He shared a funny twist with me. Most fundies are KJ only Baptist. He asked me if I knew who translated the KJ Bible. (Of course, the Anglicans) "Did you ever wonder why a Baptist would put such stock in the literal interpretation of a book translated by a group they consider heretical?"
I had to laugh at that one!
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Post by avavirginia on Sept 16, 2009 0:54:03 GMT -5
Pardon me for being shallow. But why didn't all the girls have long hair? Were they being mini-Jezebels? This is a reflection of Quiverfull being a movement as opposed to a cult-like organization. There is not a ruling body enforcing a particular interpretation. There are a wide range of convictions and preferences within the movement. ;D I wore stylish clothes that were modest, ie not too tight or too short. I had friends that dressed in prairie dresses and never cut their hair ( I have always wondered how such long hair could be modest, it seems rather immoderate to me and so very sexy too ) I had other friends who dressed like the Mennonites with the little white caps and A-line dresses. Modest for them was covered ankles, heads or elbows. Most of my friends, like me, tried to fit in as much as possible. We all followed our own conscience, or that of our parents, under the general principle (omg, that word is a trigger!) of modesty.
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Post by arietty on Sept 16, 2009 3:55:09 GMT -5
I haven't read the replies and I'm up to my eyeballs in cooking curry but I just have to say THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST THINGS YOU HAVE WRITTEN. So so true.. and today I was just thinking about the connection between the obsession with the Culture war (having just interacted with fundie relatives) and the readiness of the religious right to pursue and actually LOVE real wars.I don't think there's any need to debate the rightness or the wrongness of the war in Iraq in this thread and that is not my intention. It's the seemingly adoring LOVE of the war in Iraq that I see in the religious right with all their soldier hero worship and proclamations of how inspired they are with this fight for freedom that bothers me. Surely even the most just war should have people on their knees in grief for all the death and pain? Instead it's one big WE ARE RIGHT and RIGHTEOUS pep rally. I think there's a connection there. You need a really evil enemy (Satan, communists, Islam, THE WORLD..) to really hit that high of being right, right in your beliefs and right with God. And it is a high. It's rather exciting to be on the front lines of the culture war.. and I can see how some people would be loath to give that up in favour of the great grey ambiguities I now happily live with. And you are correct Vyckie, the world is a wonderful and often benevolent place! Some of my fondest memories of coming out of this mindset are of embracing the world
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Post by sargassosea on Sept 16, 2009 13:07:20 GMT -5
Follow the money, I always say. And (since I try to follow my own advice) I have become The Most Cynical Woman You Have Ever Met But I believe that is a better thing to know the real enemy and be jaded, than to be 'yoked' to their oppression.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 16, 2009 21:44:22 GMT -5
One question this raised in my mind: Vyckie, do you believe folks like Debbie Pearl are deliberately bilking folks? Or do you think she and others like her really believe in the cause in which they make so much profit? I'm inclined to believe the latter. I don't think it's a vast con-job. Not, at least, for most of its leaders. They truly believe "God is blessing them" for fighting for "the truth." The fact that they are making lots of money just shows that they are in God's will . . .
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Post by bevy on Sept 16, 2009 22:17:30 GMT -5
This is an interesting post. I think that any portion of the Word taken to the inth degree is not healthy.
I agree that it's ALL ABOUT THE MONEY re: Christian books. I don't buy them "much" b'c I don't find them very filling.
I love the Word of God instead - esp. cause I don't read very quickly so may as well spend my time reading that which is most filling and instructive.
All your children look very happy - so I commend your job.
I am troubled by the comment you made a the bottom of the entry which said "if" there is a God. Do you believe in Him - Jesus as your Lord and Savior or are you just following rules in order to be RIGHT with Him?
Just wondering!
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Post by rosa on Sept 16, 2009 22:59:56 GMT -5
krwordgazer, the two aren't incompatible. There's a feeling that people have that you should be able to do good and make money, even if the good you're trying to do is intrinsically anti-capitalist. The Christian Lifestyle types are not that different than the Simple Living lifestyle magazines, or any women's magazine that has a goal of raising women's self esteem, or environmental companies that need to create a market for a "green" product - they all are in a bind where their mission is to get you out of the consumption economy, but in trying to get *themselves* out of that economy they really need you to send them some money. And so they try to sell you things.
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lectio
Full Member
growing...
Posts: 128
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Post by lectio on Sept 16, 2009 23:39:33 GMT -5
kr, As far as I know, the Pearls do not keep any of hte profit they make but give it all away to missions work. They've always done that, from the very beginning.
Now Vision Forum, on the other hand, is out to make a buck. Big time. They may also genuinely believe what they teach (I wouldn't know). But, no doubt about it, Doug is one heck of a slick marketing genius.
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Post by jadehawk on Sept 17, 2009 1:09:41 GMT -5
Besides, the food manufacturers are totally in it for the money. That's the thing though, no one isn't in it for the money. well ok, there's always a few idealists who aren't, but they're always on the fringe. in our culture, something can only be popular if it's designed to make money. That includes junk food as much as "edutainment" instead of real education, or "news that sells" instead of real news, or "green" products as opposed to.... well... fewer products in general :-p One question this raised in my mind: Vyckie, do you believe folks like Debbie Pearl are deliberately bilking folks? Or do you think she and others like her really believe in the cause in which they make so much profit? I'm inclined to believe the latter. I don't think it's a vast con-job. Not, at least, for most of its leaders. They truly believe "God is blessing them" for fighting for "the truth." The fact that they are making lots of money just shows that they are in God's will . . . well, that's the Calvinist logic, in any case. but I have a very hard time believing that someone can be so completely in denial of reality as the likes of Phyllis Schlafly who preach one thing but do the exact opposite. People like her are either insane or simply liars; it doesn't make any sense any other way.
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Post by jadehawk on Sept 17, 2009 1:14:29 GMT -5
also, on an unrelated and humorous note, when I read "they can offer their products as the remedy for the very malady which they themselves created.", I had to think of the Simpsons quote: "Beer: The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems." -- Homer Simpson seems like we could change that to "patriarchy: the cause of, and solution to, all of women's problems"
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Post by sargassosea on Sept 17, 2009 7:38:11 GMT -5
That's the thing about Duff beer, though - it causes problems. My Miller High Life, on the other hand, is 100% solutions suspended in Tiajuana gutter water!
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 17, 2009 9:08:36 GMT -5
That's the thing about Duff beer, though - it causes problems. My Miller High Life, on the other hand, is 100% solutions suspended in Tiajuana gutter water! Ha, Sea ~ once again you crack me up. ;D I think I'm going to need to go back and rework this "It's About MONEY" post to clarify the point that I want to make which is this: I have no problem with making a buck ~ earning an honest living. In fact, that's exactly what I've got in mind in running the NLQ website, writing a book, etc. What makes me sick is that the "need" which the Quiverfull philosophy and lifestyle are being marketed to fill is manufactured and exaggerated in order to sell the product. John puts it this way: It's like buying insurance to protect you from the boogeyman under the bed.Exactly. Selling books and materials which address an ACTUAL need is one thing (i.e. Rosa's example: Simple Living) ~ but creating fear and then capitalizing on those fears is better suited for the Mafia than for Christian entrepreneurs. I well remember recognizing this principle in operation during my years as a staunch, pro-life advocate. (Please note: the purpose of my including this here is NOT to start up a "pro-life" vs "pro-choice" debate ) The first time I saw actual pictures of aborted babies ~ all bloody and dismembered with recognizable tiny little baby fingers amongst the horror ~ I had a strong physical reaction which cemented my determination to fight for the unborn. BUT ... after a while, I could look at those same pictures and not be much affected. So then, the pro-lifers come out with the partial-birth abortion graphics ~ showing a fully-developed baby ~ delivered except for its head ~ with a pair of scissors stabbed into the base of its skull ~ a vacuum hose is inserted into the resulting hole and the baby's brains are sucked out ~ the baby goes limp ~ OMG!! I totally freaked! I was SHOCKED out of my apathy and renewed my efforts on the behalf of the unborn. AND I SENT MONEY ~ plenty of it ~ to those pro-life organizations which were on the "front lines" of the battle to rescue the babies. BUT ... it wasn't long before the idea of partial-birth abortion didn't stir me quite so violently ... And a while later, I began to hear about the pain which unborn babies feel during an abortion ~ and there was a campaign to force abortion clinics to inform their clients of the pain their about-to-be-killed babies would suffer ~ and to offer the mother pain-medication for the baby prior to the procedure ... As I read the pro-life medical professionals' expert testimony regarding the evidence that aborted babies feel pain ... Well, to tell the truth, by this point, I was beginning to catch on to the escalation-of-horror tactics used by these right-to-life organizations and it just made me mad to realize the manipulation. I remember discussing this with Warren ~ and I told him that we were unlikely to get rich in our newspaper business simply because I was unwilling to print the most sensational news items which might scare our readers into sending more money. I would do everything I could do in good conscience to promote the pro-life cause ~ but I would not resort to terrorism ~ and that is exactly how I had come to view the more extreme fund raising tactics of these organizations. Where there is an actual need ~ I'm all for enterprising people making and selling their products and solutions. Just don't invent a need ~ and certainly DO NOT perpetuate a WAR ~ the Culture War ~ just to make a buck. As to KR's question: One question this raised in my mind: Vyckie, do you believe folks like Debbie Pearl are deliberately bilking folks? Or do you think she and others like her really believe in the cause in which they make so much profit? I'm sure the Pearls and other merchants of QF/P are sincere in their belief that there really is a Big Bad Enemy "out there" who wants to devour the children of Believers ~ but I'm also discovering that there are plenty of "family values" peddlers with not-so-pure motives. Dogemperor has done a ton of insightful research on this subject: www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/24/362034/-Dominionist-mindsets-%28a-prelude%29 ~ and that's just for starters. So yeah ~ it is all about money. And that wouldn't be so much of a problem except that the practice of QF/P is actually a sort of circular predicament in which the proffered "cure" actually feeds and accelerates the disease.
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Post by justflyingin on Sept 17, 2009 9:38:20 GMT -5
I am troubled by the comment you made a the bottom of the entry which said "if" there is a God. Do you believe in Him - Jesus as your Lord and Savior or are you just following rules in order to be RIGHT with Him? Just wondering! I'm not Vyckie, (haha) but by her posts she's written, she's not sure what she believes these days. But she goes to the SA church. I believe her friend is a co-pastor there. Hopefully she'll have time to answer this.
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Post by sleepybones on Sept 17, 2009 9:44:16 GMT -5
Two quotes I loved today:
(from Vickie) If there is a God, He’s going to have to fight His own battles ~ I’m done offering up my children as ammunition for His crusades.
and
(from arietty) Surely even the most just war should have people on their knees in grief for all the death and pain?
Such great insight! This is why I visit this blog!
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Post by grandmalou on Sept 17, 2009 10:19:54 GMT -5
Two quotes I loved today: (from Vickie) If there is a God, He’s going to have to fight His own battles ~ I’m done offering up my children as ammunition for His crusades. and (from arietty) Surely even the most just war should have people on their knees in grief for all the death and pain? Such great insight! This is why I visit this blog! Aren't the people on this blog just thoroughly lovable? Bless you; Grandmalou
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Post by arietty on Sept 17, 2009 22:34:20 GMT -5
Yep there is nothing wrong with making money but when you need to keep generating fear to make that money AND the fear you are generating has no basis in reality you are now bilking people. Even if you actually believe the story you are peddling.
I think the manufactured culture war is much more of a bilk when money is involved than horror images used in pro-life or World Vision or any other advertisement because the culture war is a fiction created by folks whose faith thrives on persecution. Though right wing christians may want to sell you on the idea that you are being attacked and threatened by people not like you in fact they are the only ones doing the attacking. You don't find the gay rights movement campaigning to limit the rights of christians do you? All the attacking and campaigning and attempts to curtain people's culture comes FROM the christians and is aimed at those outside of their camp. Their popular targets of gays, newagers, atheists don't care at all how christians live, what they read, what movies they watch, what they teach their children.. they know it has nothing to do with them. It's the christians that have been convinced, sold on the idea that they are under grave threat and they must fight to reclaim everybody else's culture and make it just like their own.
And the war is just so damn exciting to many people. After all it elevates the mundane to spiritual warfare. The QF life can be very poor and very tedious (especially when you are frugally making everything). You have less options than all those non-QF people, you never get out of the stuck-at-home with toddlers phase, your life doesn't progress on to new phases, extra money once you're older, freedom to travel or go back to school.. really it can be all the same for decades. If you know that this is because you are on the FRONTLINES of a might battle, GOD'S BATTLE and that every snotty nose you wipe and bottle of peaches you can has eternal consequences well.. that's mighty appealing. Reading about it in endless magazine subscriptions and books is appealing too. And of course all that reading just makes the world appear more and more threatening. Better buy some more books about biblical family values to protect yourself!
I know some of these writers are sincere but they are also deluded.
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Post by rosa on Sept 18, 2009 0:00:07 GMT -5
The saddest thing about it is that it gets to people who aren't in the center of the movement. I used to go to church with my grandma, a nice mainstream Protestant church where her Sunday school class had more people over 90 in it than under 80. The last few years I was there a few "young folks" joined the class - a couple in their 50s, a single woman a little older than that, and a mom in her late 20s - and they always had some story about how good Christian folks weren't safe in the highway rest stops or how they heard a little girl somewhere got kicked out of public school for praying. It was really disturbing to listen to.
I have known some Christians who had problems because of their faith - they got born again and their partners didn't convert so they had to get divorced, or they felt the need to leave religious literature on the breakroom table and got asked not to, or they couldn't keep their in-laws from visiting even though they weren't the right kind of Christian. But they were the kind of problems you get when you need everyone to do what you say, not the kind you get from people hating your religion (though a few of those people genuinely had a hard time making friends because they wouldn't follow normal social rules - that's how I end up knowing everyone's life story, because I put up with all sorts of odd behavior).
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