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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 24, 2009 10:18:55 GMT -5
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Post by rosa on Apr 24, 2009 11:16:25 GMT -5
Oh, this story breaks my heart. I was so sick when I was pregnant with my son, that whenever I get the stomach flu my first thought is "Oh no, I'm pregnant". And that's with a supportive partner, no other children, and comprehensive medical care (through an HMO, so we only paid $150 and only got statements, no bills) All around you were people who weren't listening to you at ALL, and help just around the corner nobody would help you reach. It's just criminal for that midwife to talk you out of getting medical attention. I'm really glad you did finally get medical attention and financial help. Here's the question the story raises for me, though: if God wanted you to have more children, couldn't he heal the vasectomy scars? I really do not get this 'trust God" methodology that allows for doing things to allow conception but not for things that hinder it...if God can heal the sick and wipe your soul clean of sins, couldn't He heal Warren's vas deferens himself? I see that in multiple people's stories, that husbands got reversed vasectomies when they became convicted about this (and I know a number of non-BC-using Catholics who got snipped when they were done, on the "if God really wants us to have a baby, he can take care of that" reasoning.)
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Apr 24, 2009 11:43:00 GMT -5
I also wonder what these same people would do if they or their children were in a car accident. Do you let God take care of your wounds or do you get medical attention. If you are already intervening selectively, then how is birth control against the lords wishes?
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Post by charis on Apr 24, 2009 11:51:49 GMT -5
I'm glad you posted this. The way the other thread went (where you lifted the quote) was personally painful for me and while I won't pick up my marbles and go home, I was not feeling very understood nor accepted on here. People seemed to judge that because we have decided not to control fertility artificially, we should somehow feel guilty for being "parasites" by accepting social benefits for which we qualify. I think its a very destructive and potentially dangerous message to send to people who are in the situation you described in this post. I bet you paid taxes on your 15K. You "rendered unto Caesar". It is NOT biblically inconsistent nor immoral to accept assistance from Caesar when you qualify for it.
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Post by jemand on Apr 24, 2009 13:09:36 GMT -5
That's horrible! That midwife should lose her license, a midwife should never try to convince the patient not to pursue wanted medical attention... My mother gave birth to my youngest three sisters at home, with fantastic midwives who really listened to and cared for what SHE thought and wanted, instead of their own ideologies. And to be honest, even some doctors have the opinion a pregnant woman doesn't REALLY know what's good for her which is a bit of sexism that I really wish would go away... But when even a midwife does not believe the woman knows what she wants... yeah. Bad situation.
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Post by anotheramy on Apr 24, 2009 13:43:54 GMT -5
I also wonder what these same people would do if they or their children were in a car accident. Do you let God take care of your wounds or do you get medical attention. If you are already intervening selectively, then how is birth control against the lords wishes? I've always wondered about this too! Once I was told by a Catholic man on a messageboard that getting pregnant is what my body is meant to do, like it or not, so no I shouldn't have any say over when I decide to stop having children. I guess that's the most honest justification I've heard. It's all our bodies are meant to do. So suck it up, ladies.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 24, 2009 13:46:41 GMT -5
After the emergency c-section, the anesthetist told me that he'd never been so afraid for a mother on the operating table. The doctor told me that since he hadn't actually examined me during the pregnancy, he couldn't know for sure, but when he saw me in the ER, his educated guess is that I had gestational diabetes, toxemia and polyhydraminios. The labor and delivery R.N. who cared for me in the hospital asked me, "If having three c-sections didn't make you a poor candidate for a HBAC (home birth after cesarean) ~ then when she suspected twins, that should have ruled out the possibility of home birth right there." AND ~ I did not learn my lesson ~ because when I got pregnant with my 5th child, I hired Judy again ~ and that time I did have a successful home birth after 4 c-sections though she assaulted me and could have torn my cervix open. ( www.storknet.com/stories/kent.htm) It was only when I became pregnant with my 6th that I had serious doubts about Judy and decided against having her at the delivery. Incredibly, even knowing what all I'd been through to bring my babies into this world, Judy wrote an affidavit for Warren to convince the judge that I was not a fit mother and that the children would be better off with their father. I was so freakin' pissed ~
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aimai
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Post by aimai on Apr 24, 2009 13:51:33 GMT -5
Good golly, Vyckie. I guessed at once that you had gestational diabetes and quite possibly the other stuff too and I'm not even a midwife. I had a home birth and a midwife for my second child and I'm totally pro midwife but midwives and home births aren't more moral than hospital births. How ridiculous for a religion to make everything a test of faith—this reminds me of tht wonderful joke that someone posted on the boards a while ago about the man who sat on his roof during a flood and passed up two police boats and a helicopter saying “god will provide” until god left him there and said “I gave you two police boats and a helicopter—what more did you want?” If I believed in god at all I'd have to assume that modern medicine—including all the advances in prenatal care and labor care—are actually pretty much god given. The very idea that your suffering and the potential death of your children were some kind of religious means test is sickening. That midwife should have been struck off for her arrogant and thoughtless handling of you.
aimai
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Post by stampinmama on Apr 24, 2009 13:52:46 GMT -5
Incredibly, even knowing what all I'd been through to bring my babies into this world, Judy wrote an affidavit for Warren to convince the judge that I was not a fit mother and that the children would be better off with their father. I was so freakin' pissed ~ Holy crap! Is this woman still licensed?? I certainly hope not!
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Post by anotheramy on Apr 24, 2009 13:58:43 GMT -5
Oh wow, Vyckie! Your birth story has me crying. I had a "cervical lip" and my doctor merely "worked" my cervix with some olive oil. I couldn't even feel the procedure she was so gentle. It was NOTHING like what Judy did to you! I wish you could sue the pants off of her!!!
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Post by rosa on Apr 24, 2009 14:12:33 GMT -5
I know you're kind of joking when you say you didn't learn your lesson, but looking back. . .what was the decisionmaking mechanism? Can you even remember? (I'm serious - my pregnancy/new motherhood days are all pretty blurry around the edges) You've talked about how maybe being strong enough to take this kind of suffering was almost a disservice. But when you went back to Judy again, were you *trying* to die? Were you feeling like living through the previous birth meant God really was enabling your birthing decisions? Were you just too tired to argue?
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Post by stampinmama on Apr 24, 2009 14:13:50 GMT -5
Both of my babies were born at home and I had a wonderful experience with both of them, but a couple months after my daughter was born, I found that my uterus, rectum and bladder had all collapsed. It happened NOT at the time of birth, but gradually after the birth. I was having to push things back inside each time I went to the bathroom. What happened to my mother after 4 kids only took me two kids to get to. A genetic condition of weak muscles. Sure, we have fertile fannies in my family, but we knew enough to know that just because I *can* get pregnant does not mean I *should* get pregnant again. I was put on high dose pills and STILL got pregnant, but miscarried and we were at complete peace with the miscarriage, as awful as that may sound to some.
My hubby got a vasectomy and it was one of the best things we did for our family.
With a special needs child in our family, I can't imagine leaving my kids without a mother, my hubby without a wife, or having my son have to live with less than proper attention to his needs simply because I'm taking care of 10 more kids. That's completely selfish and unfair.
As far as I see it, that vasectomy WAS God's provision for us.
All of this reminds me of the time my husband came home from work shortly after we got married. We were living in PA at the time and my hubby worked for an Amish man. (My husband's mother actually grew up Old Order Amish.) The Old Order Amish don't believe in medical intervention.
As he was driving home, he saw a young Amish boy on his little scooter get hit by a car. He skull was split open and he stopped his car to see if he could help. My husband offered to drive them to the hospital or to drive to the next house that had a phone and call 911 (we didn't have a cell phone back then - back in 1997). The mother and father of the little boy were walking with him when this happened. They told my hubby that they didn't want medical intervention. That this was God's will. It infuriated my hubby. He quickly got into his car, drove to the next house and dialed 911.
I can't understand the reasoning behind a parent seeing their child's head split open and bleeding and choosing NOT to get them help, all in the name of God's will. ARGH!
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Post by jemand on Apr 24, 2009 14:53:02 GMT -5
Another thing.... Judy didn't have the equipment for an ultrasound? I know all my mother's midwives DID have ultrasound equipment, as well as other things... She sounds like she was very uninformed and ill equipped for what she was doing.
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Post by anotheramy on Apr 24, 2009 15:00:26 GMT -5
Both of my babies were born at home and I had a wonderful experience with both of them, but a couple months after my daughter was born, I found that my uterus, rectum and bladder had all collapsed. It happened NOT at the time of birth, but gradually after the birth. I was having to push things back inside each time I went to the bathroom. What happened to my mother after 4 kids only took me two kids to get to. A genetic condition of weak muscles. Sure, we have fertile fannies in my family, but we knew enough to know that just because I *can* get pregnant does not mean I *should* get pregnant again. I was put on high dose pills and STILL got pregnant, but miscarried and we were at complete peace with the miscarriage, as awful as that may sound to some. My hubby got a vasectomy and it was one of the best things we did for our family. . I hope you're doing better now. My sister is about to have her third and final baby, and she has the same problem after baby number two. I'm worried for her. She waited almost five years for her third child so hopefully there's been some time for some healing/strengthening. Later this year, she's having corrective surgery. Everything will be lifted and held in place with webbing. She's rather young for the procedure (not yet 30). It amazes me when people don't take this kind of thing seriously. Would they encourage diabetics to eat candy bars and refuse insulin shots?
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lectio
Full Member
growing...
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Post by lectio on Apr 24, 2009 15:24:56 GMT -5
Both of my babies were born at home and I had a wonderful experience with both of them, but a couple months after my daughter was born, I found that my uterus, rectum and bladder had all collapsed. It happened NOT at the time of birth, but gradually after the birth. This happened to me, too, after my second...it got really bad after my third, bad enough that I had to have surgery to repair it and the doctor said I shouldn't have more babies or it would happen again, possibly worse. Well, my husband "heard from God" that I needed to have more. Had two more (oldest child was 6 when baby #5 was born) and had to have another surgery. The doctor told me (after the second surgery) at that point there was no more tissue to do another reconstructive surgery with, so unless I wanted to not be able to have sex anymore, etc, I needed to stop having babies. So I told my husband that I wasn't going to have any more babies, but even then, even though I was already slooowly coming out of the whole patriarchy thing, I was afraid...afraid with the, "What if..." part about how maybe my husband was right, maybe I'm angering God, maybe I will not go to heaven now...etc... It seems SO foolish now, so very very foolish, but it was a very real reality during that time. I mean, what's weird is that I KNEW better even at the time. Theologically, on paper, I knew better. If I'd been counseling another woman during that very same time, I would have told her NOT to listen to her husband, NOT to fear God's wrath, etc... but in my own situation, it was like I was blind... I had no idea it was abuse, I was so used to those voices of condemnation, so used to living in fear, so just totally messed up by living with someone so controlling and manipulating (my husband was a very smart abuser...he knew just where my weak spots were and how to get me there)... My mind was so twisted in knots that I really had a hard time saying no to my husband without being in dreadful fear of God's wrath. My body is screwed up "down there" now. It's nothing horrible, but the stitches ripped (because my husband took off to New York for a pleasure trip 2 days after I got home from surgery, and I had five children to care for all by myself for a week when, technically, I was supposed to be in bed and not lifting anything for 6 weeks)... and so part of the reconstruction "came apart," as it were. I always have to explain what happened when I go in for gyn exams, etc. It's so sad to think back on. I love my 4th and 5th children DEARLY, so it's not that I regret having them, but I still think back in shock that I was so severely under the spell of his control that I allowed myself to ruin my body permanently in order to please what he said God wanted. Here is a post I wrote on that subject in 2006, when I was *mostly* convinced that I didn't have to keep on having babies, but still really shaky/scared about it...this was written right before I went in to have the second surgery: adventuresinmercy.wordpress.com/2006/07/09/justification-by-wombs/
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jennie
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Post by jennie on Apr 24, 2009 15:25:39 GMT -5
I think it's hypocritical of the midwife to dissuade you from seeking medical attention when she uses medical knowledge herself - checking the heartrate and blood pressure. Yes, it is a pitiful lack of proper care. But those are medical procedures.
She really should lose her license. Midwives are trained to know their limits and specifically when they should get you to a doctor.
Jennie
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marie
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Post by marie on Apr 24, 2009 16:05:46 GMT -5
Vyckie, I can easily see why you "threw the baby out with the bathwater". If that is what I had been taught that the Bible said concerning medical conditions and births and financial assistance, I would have done it too. I am horrified at what this woman did to you and how she manipulated you mentally when you were going through such obvious problems. I have to have c-sections and have a condition where I have to be monitored carefully through each pregnancy. My health and well being have always been forefront in my husbands mind. That's we why went of medicaid for the birth of our daughter (#2) when he lost his job. It is so sad when the God of love is distorted and used as a club to manipulate so that people think that taking care of themselves equals defying God. So much of Scripture is ignored in order to support that position. So sorry for all your pain. I am glad that you got the beautiful Hazzell though. Whenever I see her smile it brightens my day.
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Post by rosa on Apr 24, 2009 16:49:42 GMT -5
lectio, that reminds me of Nate Phelps statement that somewhere inside himself he didn't think he'd ever have children. Even after he ran away, he still emotionally was convinced that babies were a gift from God and God wasn't going to bless him because he was a sinner.
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Post by arietty on Apr 24, 2009 20:45:56 GMT -5
I was just heartbroken and sickened reading your story Vyckie and I haven't even read the storknet post.
Like others as soon as I read it I thought "gestational diabetes and pre-eclampsia".
You know what came to mind when you wrote about the anesthetist fearing for your life and the doctor making guesses about your condition because he had never seen you? That this is what all the Baby programs and education tries to PREVENT. Anyone reading that part of your story and not knowing who you were would assume you were A. very young, B. very poor, C. very uneducated. Women in these categories not having pre-natal care is why the infant mortality rate is so high in the US compared to other 1st world countries.
That midwife was a DANGEROUS IDIOT. She cared more for her own warped ideology than for you and your baby. When you said "I really need to see a doctor" all she heard was FEAR vs FAITH. She did not hear the intuitions of a woman who had already had 3 children.
It's incredible to me too that we often choose homebirth to avoid just this kind of abuse and lack of a voice from doctors!!
I've had a homebirth myself but I always loathed the teaching that it was God's Better Way and a sign of your faith.
These threads have been good for me because they've been a real reality slap. Even though I use BC now and have chosen not to have any more children (I have 8) in the back of my mind I've always assumed that if I DID have another one.. everything would be fine. God would honour my having another baby and, thought it might be difficult, it would all work out. This is like some residual formulaic thinking that is still in me and it's been good to expose it to myself through reading this board.
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Post by andrea on Apr 24, 2009 20:49:56 GMT -5
Vyckie, my heart was just aching for "then-you" as I read your account. I get so helplessly angry when I hear of things like that. I simply can't wrap my head around how the denial of available and necessary medical help could ever be considered good stewardship of our bodies! And my goodness, such pride that your midwife must have had, to decide that she KNEW how God would and would not choose to provide aid; never mind the testimony of your own body!
It's like that story, where the man finds himself trapped in his house as floodwaters rise, and prays to God to save him from the flood. An evacuating family comes by in a truck to offer him a ride out, but he refuses, because he knows that God is going to save him. The floodwaters surround his house, cutting off all escape, and a boat comes down what was once the street. The man in the boat offers the stranded man a lift, but he refuses because God is going to save him. The waters then fill his home, so he climbs onto the roof as a rescue helicopter passes over. A ladder is lowered for him, but the man refuses to take it, because God is going to save him.
Eventually the waters overtake him and carry him off to drown. Then, as he stands before God in Heaven, the man rails at Him "why didn't you save me?!"
To which the Almighty replies "I sent you a truck, a boat and a helicopter! What more did you expect Me to do?!"
The difference, of course, would be that the man in the story gambled only with his own life; Judy gambled with your life and the lives of your children, and THAT is what makes me so very, very angry.
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Post by jemand on Apr 24, 2009 22:19:27 GMT -5
It's incredible to me too that we often choose homebirth to avoid just this kind of abuse and lack of a voice from doctors!! That's exactly what I was thinking... I've heard so many stories of unnecessary episiotomies, C-sections, inducing after coercion of the mother... and then after she's all doped up and connected to four or five machines with unnecessary scarring and tearing to heal... She's told to snap out of it 'cuz it's NOTHING. Because the doctor thought you should have it. Regardless of whether you needed or wanted it, and no consideration for the disappointment of the state you've ended up in. But my mom's midwives were pagan, Wicca, revere the earth type folk who were very accepting of any belief from the mother, and who really really seemed to LISTEN, but who also were very responsible medically. (Yeah, my sisters were born when I was between 9 and 14, and I went along for many of her checkups... and so I learned a lot)
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Post by justflyingin on Apr 25, 2009 0:51:43 GMT -5
I bet you paid taxes on your 15K. You "rendered unto Caesar". It is NOT biblically inconsistent nor immoral to accept assistance from Caesar when you qualify for it. It is not wrong to accept assistance, but just be aware what are are doing. You aren't providing, the government is. You are getting help from beyond yourselves, and monthly, at that. If you make so little, you would also get yearly help from the government in the form of Earned Income credit --a gift from the government that gives you money you did not earn. I've been there. I've been poor. We've used WIC. We just didn't claim to be "trusting God" in the area of b/c while doing so by "testing God" on a monthly basis since it was obvious I conceived easily. We tried to be wise. The doctor told us to allow the woman's body a year between pregnancies to give it time to recover. We did that. I don't consider that "not trusting". A true QF mindset would (from what I read). I didn't "tempt God" either by sitting back and waiting for money to flow to us. My husband worked hard, and I worked when I could. There is a principle here. Do what you can and God provides. He expects you to be wise. Charis, I don't really care what you do. Just be consistent. It does irk me when QF claim to be trusting God and they aren't. Vyckie, you were amazing. You and Laura really were "poster children" for the movement. I am amazed at what you went through.
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Post by mostcurious on Apr 25, 2009 6:36:09 GMT -5
It's interesting to me to see this "God will provide" thinking from an individual perspective. My very religious husband works for a religious nonprofit, and sometimes he gets mad at the management for waving off his concerns because "God will provide," because "God helps those who help themselves"
Since I'm either an atheist (or I believe in the vindictive, vengeful God of the Old Testament), I think it's all hooey, and even if you're a non profit? You should have a business plan that's more solid than "God will provide"
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 25, 2009 9:02:55 GMT -5
This discussion re: "trusting God" with family planning but then accepting government assistance really caught my attention ~ I started out posting a reply to themomma, but after typing for a while, decided that it needed to be a post over on the NLQ blog. The reason I think this is so important is because it is just one more example of how UNLIVABLE the QF/P lifestyle is.
Sure ~ it can be a very appealing VISION ~ the thought of having a large family and doing it debt-free and using no gov't services ~ wow. What a testimony to God's provision for those who truly trust Him and are faithful to follow all of His decrees.
I could easily see the logic in justflyingin and themomma's point ~ if you're consistent in trusting the Lord to provide, then you can't accept gov't benefits ~ and so that's what we were committed to doing.
But the reality of living out those principles nearly got me killed and Warren (the "provider") saddled with medical bills that would have taken years and years to pay off.
What's interesting about that is, that I was willing to accept the consequences of this conviction for myself ~ I went through Hell physically and emotionally in order to remain faithful and trust God with our family planning ~ BUT when it came to Warren's part of this conviction ~ trusting the Lord to provide financially ~ I let Warren off the hook ~ I went out and signed up for medicaid. And the reason I did that is because, although biblically, providing income was supposed to be his thing ~ I knew that he would not accept that responsibility in the same suck-it-up way that I handled my part (childbearing) ~ he'd have become nervous, overwhelmed and unbearable. So ~ I didn't put him through it because the children and I would actually have suffered more than he did as he made us all miserable with his childish ways.
Anyway ~ as I see the situation now, it was just ridiculous for our family to be trying to live a biblically-consistent life in the 21st century in the first place. We are not living in biblical times ~ we're living in modern times. If we were living in biblical times, Warren would never have married and had children in the first place because as a blind man ~ everyone (including Warren) would have recognized and acknowledged that he was in no position to support a family.
So ~ if we had been ancient people living an ancient lifestyle ~ things would have worked out. If we had been modern people living a modern lifestyle ~ things would have worked out. The problem, as I see it, is that we were a modern family trying to live an ancient lifestyle ~ and it truthfully sucked.
The reason that, even though I already knew my body is not cut out for childbirth, I nevertheless attempted a home birth is because I didn't want to go into debt with all those medical bills. I wanted to be consistent in trusting the Lord ~ with babies and with money ~ and I saw the home birth option as a way for the Lord to provide financially for the delivery of all these blessings He would be sending our way.
This is the problem with QF/P ~ it locks families into impossible dilemmas which in reality are not a problem ~ not even a consideration for modern families. The problem was all in my head ~ and my head (thanks to Judy) was in the wilderness ~ cognizant of how the Lord deals with those rebellious people who insist on having their needs met according to *their* wisdom rather than trusting Him to provide in *His* way ~ He gave in to their demands ~ they had meat in abundance ~ but they had leanness of the soul.
Sure, I could have had free medical care in abundance ~ but at what cost to my eternal well-being?
I'm telling you ~ it's a trap. And I'm not shy in saying that to the extent that QF/P works *for some families* ~ it's because those families are not so entangled in the exactness of it all that they aren't willing to bend the rules and make some adjustments in order to make that lifestyle more accommodating to who they are and the times in which they live.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 25, 2009 9:54:42 GMT -5
I'm glad you posted this. The way the other thread went (where you lifted the quote) was personally painful for me and while I won't pick up my marbles and go home, I was not feeling very understood nor accepted on here. People seemed to judge that because we have decided not to control fertility artificially, we should somehow feel guilty for being "parasites" by accepting social benefits for which we qualify. I think its a very destructive and potentially dangerous message to send to people who are in the situation you described in this post. I bet you paid taxes on your 15K. You "rendered unto Caesar". It is NOT biblically inconsistent nor immoral to accept assistance from Caesar when you qualify for it. Charis ~ I completely understand why this discussion would be painful for you ~ it was painful for me to read too ~ which is why I wanted to write that post and explain what a screwed-up position it puts women in when they are made to feel hypocritical for accepting government benefits for which they qualify. You state that it is not biblically inconsistent ~ would you please explain? If you can show from the bible that it's acceptable to receive assistance ~ I think that would go a long way in alleviating some of the angst of QF/P for those who still care what the bible has to say about how we ought to be structuring our families today. Because I used to also believe that conservative politics was more "biblical" than liberalism, I've pretty much always had a problem with accepting gov't benefits. Even now, it bugs me to be receiving medicaid for the kids (here in Nebraska, I do not qualify since I'm not pregnant, so I do not have any health insurance) ~ and although we would easily qualify for food stamps ~ I haven't applied. Part of that is due to a "prophecy" which a dear Christian friend told me she received from the Lord concerning me ~ she had a vision of full cupboards ~ her prophecy for me was that I would never again need to steal food, but that my pantry would always be full. That was back when I was 18 years old ~ and ever since, I've always had money for food and I actually do have a pantry which is always well-stocked (unless you ask my teenagers who look in the fridge and insist that "There's nothing to eat!"). So ~ even though I don't actually believe in God these days, I still do put some stock in that prophecy. I sort of feel like if I were to apply for food stamps, I might "break the spell" or whatever. Weird, huh? Anyway ~ I have been considering at least getting some of our groceries from the local food pantry ~ since grocery shopping is taking up a huge portion of my limited budget.
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