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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 30, 2009 9:53:38 GMT -5
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Post by cereselle on Nov 30, 2009 10:31:20 GMT -5
Journey. Just... wow. You put it so clearly.
I haven't publically stated this, but I was in a relationship for two years that was very similar to yours. Like Mark, my boyfriend carefully explained to me why all our problems were my fault for not trusting him enough. Like you, I accepted the blame and hated myself for being such a bad person.
You put this exactly right. It's not like there was blame and anger going on 24/7. There were wonderful times, times when I felt that everything was going to work out just great, and I was so happy to have this person in my life.
The more I read of your story, the more I identify with you and your choices. I was lucky, though-- we weren't married, and it only took me two years to come to the end of my rope. If we had been married... well, it would have been a lot longer than two years.
I totally understand why you didn't leave. In your position, I wouldn't have either. (Not that that's a good thing, understand...)
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Post by margybargy on Nov 30, 2009 12:29:10 GMT -5
Wow. You're post makes me think of this website. www.drirene.com/I have a friend who's married to a "great guy". I remember seeing the mask slip one day. I was in complete shock. He yelled at her and called her an a$$hole for taking a sip of his drink. I never thought the same way about him again. Makes me wonder if Mark's mask ever slipped. Maybe he was just too smooth? Maybe his lapses were excused because of his position? I wonder if people really did notice, but never said anything.
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Post by rosa on Nov 30, 2009 13:10:06 GMT -5
The very best thing for me, after my dad left, was learning that there were some people - a friend who waitressed at the restaurant he liked, some people he worked with - who felt the same way I did about him. Well, less intense, but you know.
It was so validating, because he was so good at manipulating my reality, I though everyone else agreed with him.
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blair
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Post by blair on Nov 30, 2009 13:17:29 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing such a painful story with us, Journey. This essay was so thoughtful and moving in terms of painting the reality of the abuser/abusee dynamic.
And, oh, wow. The description of how Mark was such a thoughtful, godly man in public, and then how he was at home...it's just gut-churning for me to read. I can think of three women off the top of my head who eventually left our church and divorced their abusive spouses...all to the great shock of their church family. Same deal...it was all, what? No! He's such a great guy! A godly man! He does such and such for the Lord. He'd give you the shirt off his back...and on and on. And then the finger-pointing and side-taking started. Getting divorced meant that these women the lost their church friends, too.
And you're right. These men, like your Mark, were probably decent guys a lot of the time. Except when the were complete bastards. Nothing is black and white, that's for sure. And, after reading your story, I have to wonder how long and how much these women endured before they finally had to end their marriages.
I'm looking forward to your next installment, Journey. Thank you again for sharing.
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Post by philosophia on Nov 30, 2009 13:25:24 GMT -5
Having been there and done that, all I can say is YES! I love the way that you explained that what we experience is something entirely different from the persona that other people accept. Mine comes off as strong, suave and romantic. He likes drama. (Maybe that's a preacher thing.)
There is a soul denying dynamic also, that I call the "obligatory sex doctrine". As a young idealistic wife I agreed to my husbands request that I "never use sex as a weapon." What that means in real life is that no matter how angry or tired or upset I may feel, I won't deny my husband sex, because that might lead him to discomfort and, ultimately, his sexual immorality.
The end result of relinquishing the right to determine whether or not *I* felt like it was an incredible store of resentment. There was nothing mutual about it. It become another service to be rendered. Ultimately, his very presence disgusted me. It was impossible to enjoy without going to another place in my mind.
One day I was particularly upset at the thought, and told him I felt like a whore. He could not understand where I was coming from. But the realization had come to me that the only reason I was doing this was for the security of the children.
All that store of obligation and guilt for promises made is a powerful weapon to a person with control issues. After I had told him I wanted a divorce he guilted me into it one more time using scripture, guilt and obligation. The very next evening after devotions he yelled at me for cutting the children's fingernails during "his time".
But, oh yes, he sent me a heartfelt, dramatic letter of apology. He was so sorry for blowing up. See, I don't fully understand his needs. He needs to have his way in all things, and I was keeping him from relaxing after devotions because I kept the children up ten extra minutes to clip their nails before church the next morning. Why did I need to do things during "his time"? Why didn't I get that done sooner? If only I could understand that it was my behavior that caused him to blow up. Yeah, really sorry.
Hmm. I have 9 children. This was two days after a large Thanksgiving with another family of 5 for company. I was holding the kids hands during prayer and noticed the boys had black fingernails. We had church in the morning. Yes, he's right, my fault entirely. Why did *I* cause him to lash out so?
And 10,000 moments both worse and not quite this bad are what we experience.
All the responsibility, all the blame, none of the credit. What I hated worst about being the Pastor's wife was for him receive the accolade "Oh, how do you DO it all!?" It made me want to throw up.
Yes, this is the man who says I haven't done anything for the past 10 years.
(Sorry folks, sometimes I need to blow off steam!)
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Post by sargassosea on Nov 30, 2009 13:39:26 GMT -5
I agree - very nicely said, Journey. Thank you
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Post by Sierra on Nov 30, 2009 14:37:54 GMT -5
Your posts are amazing, journey. You have a real talent for making this situation understandable. Experiences like these are often incredibly difficult to put to words, so I commend you for your ability to do so.
My father could 'switch on' a good public appearance when he wanted to - but this started to deteriorate over time. I think he began to care less about how he was perceived by others as he got older and more deeply rooted in his abusive behaviour. Like margybargy said, the mask started to slip. Although when I called upon a professor for help escaping him, he was more concerned about what people at my college would think of him than he was about the fact his daughter got on a plane thinking he was about to kill her. Priorities much?
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Post by ashmeadskernal on Nov 30, 2009 15:33:41 GMT -5
So the "obligatory sex doctrine" has the underlying premise that all cheating husbands' behavior is the fault of their wives for not having fulfilled his needs on demand? I'm just trying to wrap my head around it all. It would also be journey's fault if her ex-husband were unable to fulfill any public obligation, after all, she either agreed to mutually conflicting obligations, or she said no. And this was a position he deliberately put her in. Everything that goes right he gets lauded for. Everything that goes wrong she gets blamed for.
You know... I've seen that pattern before... in certain holy texts...
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em
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Post by em on Nov 30, 2009 17:45:25 GMT -5
Such a great post, Journey. ;D
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Post by redheadedskeptic on Nov 30, 2009 17:57:03 GMT -5
What an excellent explanation!
I got the same bad "don't tell anyone about anything bad your husband does!" advice, so when we split up, people were SHOCKED. Everyone blamed it all on me because I left such a great, caring guy!
I also got the same advice philsophia got, about the not denying sex thing. What a disaster that turned out to be. I got to be my husband's own personal porn star. I, too, felt like somebody's whore. He was a minister, too, and I roll my eyes any time a minister sings their own praises of all the work they do. Yeah, I know all the work they do. All those hours spent at the office? Surfing the internet for my ex husband or reading a golf magazine for one of the other ministers there. I wrote half of my ex husbands sermons when he preached (though not his youth lessons, though I did do that on occasion as well), kept up with every detail, went to school full time, had a kid, planned most of the youth events, sang in choir occasionally, and it was NEVER EVER enough.
Sorry to go off on a tangent.
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Post by journey on Nov 30, 2009 18:13:10 GMT -5
Thank you all. Good to hear your thoughts. I had a feeling that those who've been in abusive relationships would all know EXACTLY what I was talking about.
It's so much more complicated than it seems like when you are just listing the details of the abuse. And---many of you have probably experience this, too---- for those who know the abusive person's nice side and care about them, then even hearing the actual factual details of the abuse likely won't impact them much at all. They'll still be convinced that everything could be okay if only you gave it another try, cuz, gee, the person is Just So Nice. It's like they are deaf to everything you just explained.
It's all really really strange. I am getting to the point where I've given up trying to understand it and am, instead, just accepting that it is the way it is (even though it really hurts to have people that I love not be able to see that there was a real problem. It's almost as if you'd have to die before they'd realize that something very serious was going on).
Everyone is technically "against abuse." It's just that recognizing it for what it is gets very complicated when the abuse is coming from someone you are convinced is a "great person." This is true for the intimate partner being abused, and it is no less true for most of the people on the outside, when they finally become aware that abuse is going on.
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calulu
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Post by calulu on Nov 30, 2009 18:53:56 GMT -5
Journey, bravata! It is hard to recognize it as abuse when you're in the middle of it.
I went through a time of being thought of as the bitter rebellious wife of a perfect guy when we first joined our fundamentalist church. None of them knew that Mr. Perfect was suicidally depressed and in therapy and drugs for years, misdiagnosed with a mental disorder instead of what it actually was, a tumor on a gland driving the depression. Every single day behind the Great & Powerful OZ curtain the church members saw I shored him up, did everything, tried to be a helpmeet and became more frustrated. Eventually his mask slipped and everyone knew what was going on and many people told me that they'd had no idea and how much they pitied judging me harshly.
Add in the Christian counselor who told me that his depression was due to my inability to be submissive enough. I don't know how I didn't jump off the tallest building in town or od I was so frustrated in so many ways in those years. Extreme frustration.
Sorry to thread jack.
Did your husband's mask ever slip publicly and if it did were you secretly glad?
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Post by arietty on Nov 30, 2009 19:32:34 GMT -5
The very best thing for me, after my dad left, was learning that there were some people - a friend who waitressed at the restaurant he liked, some people he worked with - who felt the same way I did about him. Well, less intense, but you know. It was so validating, because he was so good at manipulating my reality, I though everyone else agreed with him. YES that was incredibly validating. It only happened in a few very tiny incidents (like a waitress) but it meant a lot. Journey thanks for writing your post. I could relate to it all. As the years went by my ex got worse and worse at hiding his rage and hatred and it began leaking out in front of people--some of my greatest resentment is for those who actually saw and heard his behavior yet still sided with him and blamed me for ending the marriage. But then I guess most people don't stop and think that if a man is willing to treat his wife that badly in public how does he treat her in private? Some people know that and some don't. Back when he was still Mr. Wonderful to everyone I remember I went to visit him at work once. I had not been there for a few years. When I got into his office all these women came flocking around me, introducing themselves, RUSHING to meet me.. I was completely confused. What was this about? Well it was apparently all about how much my ex loved me. "Oh it's so good to meet you, Stanley loves you SO MUCH.." "He tells us you are the most wonderful person in the world.." "You are so lucky, Stanley just worships you!!" Honestly they reacted to my visit as though the Virgin Mary had just materialized before them. I was absolutely flabbergasted and mortified. Loved me so much? The night before he had been screaming at the top of his lungs in my face, literally inch from my face, screaming and screaming about how I was ruining his life, how I was a piece of shit.. and the screaming had gone on for hours. He didn't love me, he absolutely hated me. This I knew in my bones. I really did not get it at all. Why did he tell people this? I had never in a million years thought he would say such things. After my divorce a friend explained it to me: by putting me on a pedestal and telling people how absolutely wonderful I was he was really telling them how wonderful HE was. Because of course he MUST be very very wonderful to be married to someone so amazing. As usual this little act he had going at work was all about him and making himself out to be so shiny and awesome. It's funny to think now that I didn't get this, even after the divorce, until it was explained to me. Of course NOW when I read your story I know that all that "oh you will have to ask my wife" stuff your husband did at church was all about him, how loving and kind he was. There were pieces missing from my ability to discern what my ex was really about for a long time, so intense was the crazy making that went on.
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Post by philosophia on Nov 30, 2009 19:57:38 GMT -5
After my divorce a friend explained it to me: by putting me on a pedestal and telling people how absolutely wonderful I was he was really telling them how wonderful HE was. Because of course he MUST be very very wonderful to be married to someone so amazing. As usual this little act he had going at work was all about him and making himself out to be so shiny and awesome. It's funny to think now that I didn't get this, even after the divorce, until it was explained to me. I find it amazing how similar our stories are in many respects. Mine made great speeches about my wonderfulness and perfection. The most perfect woman on earth. He didn't deserve me! Then, after I filed for divorce, he sought to prove I was an unfit mother. And, surely, I must have a psychiatric disorder, not to want to be married to him! AYE!
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Post by redheadedskeptic on Nov 30, 2009 20:59:09 GMT -5
After my divorce a friend explained it to me: by putting me on a pedestal and telling people how absolutely wonderful I was he was really telling them how wonderful HE was. Because of course he MUST be very very wonderful to be married to someone so amazing. As usual this little act he had going at work was all about him and making himself out to be so shiny and awesome. It's funny to think now that I didn't get this, even after the divorce, until it was explained to me. I find it amazing how similar our stories are in many respects. Mine made great speeches about my wonderfulness and perfection. The most perfect woman on earth. He didn't deserve me! Then, after I filed for divorce, he sought to prove I was an unfit mother. And, surely, I must have a psychiatric disorder, not to want to be married to him! AYE! My ex husband even bought an "I Love My Wife" t-shirt. He then wore it on his honeymoon with his new wife. Guess we were interchangeable!
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Post by singingbird on Nov 30, 2009 21:44:24 GMT -5
Journey, Thank you so much for posting this. Have you thought about participating in Take Back the Night? Some of my friends have found it to be a healing experience and I've found it to be empowering. Generally a Take Back the Night event takes the form of a rally that's followed by a vigil for women who've been victims of violence and abuse where anyone can speak out and tell their story if they want to. Please keep writing, I am really interested to hear more of your story and how you got out of this! www.takebackthenight.org/
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Post by philosophia on Nov 30, 2009 23:46:48 GMT -5
My ex husband even bought an "I Love My Wife" t-shirt. He then wore it on his honeymoon with his new wife. Guess we were interchangeable! Wow! How ironic is that! I feel a real kinship here!
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Post by arietty on Dec 1, 2009 0:14:12 GMT -5
Add in the Christian counselor who told me that his depression was due to my inability to be submissive enough. I don't know how I didn't jump off the tallest building in town or od I was so frustrated in so many ways in those years. Extreme frustration. About the blame the wife dynamic.. years ago I knew a woman who was always in marriage counseling and used to talk in prayer groups all the time about how she had to be a better wife and needed to work harder to save her marriage. Once she talked about how the pastor had told her to stop talking about her marriage problems because it was "gossip" (to dovetail another thread). I didn't know what the problems were but I knew she thought that they were ALL her. And other people seemed to think so too. About 10 years after this I ran into her again. She was divorced. Her husband had finally announced he was gay and the marriage was over. So much for the problem being HER all those years! They had both left the faith and ended up getting on quite well with regards to child raising etc.. now that they weren't trying to fit their individual selves into that restrictive hell called "christian marriage". She said they were friends again, like when they had first met.
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Post by krwordgazer on Dec 1, 2009 1:47:46 GMT -5
Journey's story at this point, and the plethora of responses from those who went through something similar, really astonished me.
My father used to do this to my mother-- he'd drive her into a rage so that he could show off how calm and rational he was in comparison. When I saw through what he was doing, I was furious. He'd always act like her rages just sprang out of the blue and he was innocent in the matter. Mostly this just happened when they were both drunk, though.
Sigh. They were also both incredibly wonderful people. And they're both gone now. But the stories did make me think of them. How I usually never knew what to expect from them-- whether it was going to be a sweet day or a rotten day. . .
And then I came home and hugged my husband like I hadn't seen him in a week. And when he asked why I was so intense, all I could say was how thankful I was that living with him wasn't like I'd just been reading about on NLQ.
So hard, to be going through that and have no one believe you. It makes me feel sick inside. Hugs to all of you.
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wendy
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Post by wendy on Dec 1, 2009 10:01:00 GMT -5
Wow.
I've never read a more apt description of why women hesitate to leave. Thanks.
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Post by scottinal on Dec 1, 2009 11:39:52 GMT -5
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orual
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Post by orual on Dec 1, 2009 12:43:19 GMT -5
Reading this post made me want to cry. Towards the end, when I would try to leave (during a big blow-out) he would not let me leave (physically restrain me, threaten to run away with our infant daughter - had to choose which one 'I' would get because he'd disappeer with the other one, etc.) Anyhow, 3 days later I would think - I hate him, I need to leave - but I wouldn't because he would be back to normal and I thought 1. God wanted me to stay in the marriage 2. I was being irrational and 3. that people would think I was in the wrong to leave him because I didn't leave when the altercation happened.
I read these posts because they make me realize that I am not alone, but they bring such sorrow to my soul - knowing how deeply my experiences with the church and my experiences with my ex husband has so wounded me.
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Post by sargassosea on Dec 1, 2009 14:53:36 GMT -5
FYI, Scottinal - Maybe it's just me, but to just drop in and lay an FYI about "one of the best things (you've) ever read" on the subject without perhaps first acknowledging the courage it takes for Journey to re-live her experiences and then take the time to courageously share them with the world is simply sucky. edit to add: From Scottinal's second link (first doesn't work - it's about heroine addicts?) TRIGGER WARNING! Moreover, while I am not up to speed on battered women's syndrome, it has always struck me as plausible that some women who have been severely beaten might develop PTSD; in this case, abuse might prevent them from being fully responsible for some of their actions. That said, I also think that most battered women are responsible for their actions, and that the idea that they are not is, as Hirshman says, insulting. "might", "might", and OMG!, "insulting" Scott - if this is truly one of the best things you've ever read on the subject then you don't belong here.
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Post by hopewell on Dec 1, 2009 15:00:28 GMT -5
A dear friend of mine, a truly devout Christian in the TRUE sense of that word, always says "Why is it when the wife goes away in an ambulance from being beated the husband has on a Promise Keepers shirt?" Nothing against Promise Keepers--it's just that your life is the typical type of abuse in our world. The good guy--no one believes it. I've worked for guys who spoke to their wives in ways a murder would speak and then charm old ladies faster than Andy and Opie combined! My own long ago ex [now late ex] was GREAT, loving, caring....until the day after we married. I understand. I can't wait to read more of your story.
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