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Post by grandmalou on Dec 5, 2009 8:12:28 GMT -5
Dearest Kidly; (AKA Vyckie) I quote your here: "And I was so relieved to win full custody of the kids and to finally be out from under his tyranny ~ that I didn't bother to go back to all those witnesses and ask the question, "If this was so obvious, why did you never talk to Warren or me or try to help our family in some way?" Because I already knew ~ their reasons would be pretty much similar to my own reasons ~ defining and recognizing abuse is not that simple ~ just as you say, Journey ~ IT'S COMPLICATED. ETA: My apologies if this post is triggering for Mimi" So sorry it has taken me so long to respond to that post several days ago...I find myself often lately completely out of the loop. Or? More than likely just plain "loopy" with all that's going on with Wayne. ACK! But I still remember Wiggins (AKA Warren) and his escapades with all the folks who used to drive him around delivering newspapers...how many were there? The turnover for that position (as his drivers) was horrendous! And it was a mostly volunteer position, as I recall. Meaning the DRIVERS paid for the gas, and donated their time, and "enjoyed" the company of one who was constantly telling them where to go, how to set the temperature of THEIR cars, when to go, when to stop, etc. YIKES! Then, there's the "lurking" around the corner of anywhere you and I were trying to have a conversation that we didn't want the kids to hear...there he would be, just outside the door, holding up the wall...to make sure I didn't say something that might cause you to doubt him. Or? Just about anything would set him off, and cause him to jump right in there and start yelling. In effect, he had TWO women (and who knows how many more? I mean like some of the volunteers..) he could push around. Man, did that ever 'burn my cookie'! OK. 'Nough said. Yep, this definitely tripped my trigger...
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orual
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Post by orual on Dec 5, 2009 9:22:42 GMT -5
Grandmalou - it was a list that made me realize how much I was being abused - how I didn't know it before don't ask because there was physical abuse involved. So lists work. Unfortunately I didn't leave then because I believed that divorce was the worse thing a Christian could do. The problem with being in an abusive relationship (in my opinion) is that you are connected on more than a physical level with the person who is abusing you. It's almost like you are tied to them (soul ties I guess ). Also, my sense of normalcy had shifted. It was normal to be treated the way I was being treated. Even after I had left I didn't realize how appalling my ex's behavior was until I told stories to my co-workers (and the stories I told were the soft ones). My mom had tried to get me out of the marriage, but her approach was to emotional and angry. Of course I'm going to stick up for my husband (especially as a submissive Christian woman). The list though, was objective and un-emotional.
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Post by journey on Dec 5, 2009 14:41:55 GMT -5
The problem with being in an abusive relationship (in my opinion) is that you are connected on more than a physical level with the person who is abusing you. It's almost like you are tied to them (soul ties I guess ). Also, my sense of normalcy had shifted. It was normal to be treated the way I was being treated. Even after I had left I didn't realize how appalling my ex's behavior was until I told stories to my co-workers (and the stories I told were the soft ones). This is so well said, orual. I think I am going through that thing right now, in sharing my story on the NLQ blog. As I write down some of the specific things that happened, and as I read the responses, sometimes I am stunned...stunned that I could not see how insane it all was at the time....stunned that other people are reacting with such strong feelings about what happened... I think this is helping me fully grasp that it was b.a.d.... I mean, I knew that already...I thought I did, anyway...but this experience of having to write it down...of writing down the facts to people who aren't in relationship with him, and so can just judge the facts as they stand alone, as opposed to interpreting the facts under the umbrella of, "Aw, but he's such a nice guy..." It makes things so much clearer than they were in his presence. This whole story-telling experience is going a lot deeper than I thought it would, I think in a positive rebuilding sort of way.
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Post by amanda on Dec 6, 2009 14:24:08 GMT -5
Journey, thank you for this. And no, it never is as obvious as we think it should have been when we look back without the "current relationship" filter Orual, it was also a list that finally made me realize my former marriage was abusive. But weirdly, it wasn't what made me leave. I'd already left. My reasons for leaving were a) he was a rageaholic, and b) he was an alcoholic. Why I didn't see him as abusive? Beyond me. But we were sitting in the Parents, Children, and Divorce class my state requires for divorcing couples with children to attend, and we got to the section in the workbook on domestic violence. Every characteristic of a DV relationship, every single one barring the physical abuse, was what I'd been living for years. I think it's taken longer for me to come to grips with the fact that I lived with abuse for so long than it did for me to get past the divorce. When I decided on the divorce, I was flat-out D.O.N.E. DONE. But when I realized I'd been in an abusive situation all that time... that's when it all hit the fan. And to think, all it took was a simple, straightforward, objective list.
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Post by madame on Dec 6, 2009 17:43:44 GMT -5
Journey, that was a great post. And a great discussion following it.
You're right that abuse is usually complicated.
Your post also got me thinking about what I call abuse and counter-abuse, when a person is being mistreated and they react abusively in return. Are there any studies that back this up? I know that some of the things that have happened in my marriage were not right. I have felt manipulated, treated like a child, and robbed of my choice in the matter. Things were imposed on me, I was required to put up with situations that I hadn't agreed to, and so on. The thing is, I didn't respond like a good submissive wife, I kicked back! I got angry, lashed out, talked ugly, etc.
Some relief came when I read "Boundaries" and took a few steps back. I gave myself permission to not go to church, say no to moving onto a rickety boat, not visit the in-laws, and not go with any decisions made without me. In turn, even if it sometimes just eats at me, I can give my husband space to do his things, even if I don't agree with them, even if they are causing me pain, because I have given myself the right to boundaries, It's like I've set him free.
And you're right that abused people tend to make excuses for the abuser and always try to concentrate on the positive traits of him/her. I see it all the time in my in-law's marriage, and even between my FIL and my husband. My MIL will justify her husband's behavior because he is "too ill", or will blame herself for "misbehaving". At the same time she will try to focus on how kind he is, or how helpful in some way or another, or how he means it well. Sometimes she sees things for what they are, but then she gets guilt pangs, or talks with some spiritual friend, and goes back to the same old enabling.
You can't make an abused person see that they are being abused or used. They have to see it for themselves. the sad thing is, the damage spreads. My FIL abuses his wife. She stays in the marriage. Her children are affected. The children's spouses are affected indirectly, and if they live nearby, more directly.
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Post by tapati on Dec 6, 2009 19:19:08 GMT -5
I have been healing up from a sinus infection so I haven't been on the computer a lot, but I wanted you to know, Journey, that I read and loved your latest post. It's always so difficult to explain why we didn't just flee to those outside the relationship. For that matter, I could see my friend was abused at the same time I was and I certainly urged HER to leave! It's easy to see when you aren't emotionally involved in the relationship. Emotion clouds everything. It takes time to break through that--time and worsening abuse.
It's a process that, unfortunately, can't be rushed.
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fern
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Post by fern on Dec 7, 2009 13:59:38 GMT -5
I am very late coming to this thread as I had some work done on my computer and lost all my forumpasswords Journey's post is so well said, and the other folks who have posted comments have wonderful insights. In my particular case, I was in an abusive relationship that was not christian based, but there were definitely spiritually abusive elements. I was suckered in by a man who claimed I had been his spiritual salvation. This fed my ego and I did not realize that once a man puts you on a pedestal, his next step is to knock you off because you will never fit his vision of the ideal woman. I see abuse as a form of brainwashing and that is why it's so hard to realize what is really going on. I was definitely brainwashed. For me the biggest question is still "How was it that I came to my senses?" I feel so fortunate to be out of that kind of situation.
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sista
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Post by sista on Dec 7, 2009 22:48:27 GMT -5
Journey,
Thank you so much for posting. The courage that it takes to tell the story is incredible, but the directness also provides a path for others to take in knowing that they are not alone in facing the ambivalence regarding leaving. Its sad to me that there are women that suffer at this level in order that their soulmates can feel elevated. The lack of mutual respect and mutual kindness astounds me - or to put it in plain vanilla terms - the lack of the golden rule - treat others how you would want to be treated.
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juju
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Post by juju on Dec 8, 2009 15:11:31 GMT -5
Journey...your latest post made me think, a lot, about relationships in my past. It makes me so sad that women still endure this, and for the very reasons you enumerate in your post.
I was raised by a mean drunk so you'd think I would recognize one when I see one but I didn't, and I got involved with a guy who was the nicest man on earth when he was sober -- but turned into Satan Incarnate after three or four beers, and he had three or four beers basically every night. He became jealous and vicious and mean in the way that only very insecure men can become, and I didn't see it for the longest time.
The thing that broke the spell will make you laugh.
When I started becoming interested in religion again, I decided that I wanted to do some volunteer work (Faith without works is as nothing, right?) and found a local domestic violence shelter that needed volunteers.
Volunteering at this shelter required two months of twice-weekly classes in domestic violence counseling; it was quite a thorough education for the layman about the laws, the psychology, what we could and could not do, etc. The shelter itself was a safe house and no one learned where it was until they had successfully completed the training.
One other thing: the shelter was privately funded and one of its biggest contributors was a gay and lesbian organization. This was in Southern California, so there was a much more liberal atmosphere than a lot of places. Because of this funding, part of our mandate was to reach out to domestic violence victims in the LGBT community. In other words, this shelter took men as well as women, but pretty much all of the men who came there seeking help were gay.
So I embarked on the training and as I got further and further into it my boyfriend became more and more agitated about the experience. He hated that I was spending two nights a week somewhere that he could not accompany me, and that I rarely talked about what we learned in class (he was military and decidedly not liberal about sexual preferences).
Finally one night he got drunk and flew into a rage about my volunteer work and said "I know why you go to that place -- you go there to meet other men!!!"
Yes, that's right: he accused me of doing domestic violence training at a gay-friendly shelter because I wanted to flirt with the guys.
I dumped him shortly thereafter.
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Post by journey on Dec 9, 2009 1:03:26 GMT -5
juju and all of you others, thank you so much for adding in your own stories and sharing your own thoughts, experiences and wisdom. I know that I don't comment very often, but I always read and appreciate each and every thought.
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Post by austin on Dec 9, 2009 16:40:49 GMT -5
Journey, thanks so much for sharing your story. I have been following your writings (and those of the other authors) with great interest. I am very impressed with your fortitude and insight, and I realize that this cannot be an easy "journey" for you.
I just wanted to also note that reading this made me realize that it is, indeed, quite complicated. Those on the outside "looking in" will probably think that things look okay for the most part. Oh, sure, we may have our misgivings, but if we are fortunate enough to be in a mostly-healthy relationship, we just tell ourselves, "Well, everyone is different and who am I to judge?" - which is not exactly untrue, either, but it makes it hard to know when to speak up and when not to.
I am thinking of a good friend of mine who I suspect may be subject to verbal/emotional abuse. A couple of weeks ago, several of our friends made plans to get together for dinner, to catch up, etc. This took some doing as everybody has busy schedules, but we managed to find (we thought) a good time for everybody. At the last minute, this particular friend told her sister and I (we work together) that she wouldn't be able to make it because her husband didn't want her to go. She said that he said he was tired and didn't want to deal with the kids on his own (they are hardly babies - they are eight and eleven). We kind of ribbed her and said, "Oh, come on - he can deal with his own children for a couple of hours", to which she replied, "Well, if I go, he'll be in a bad mood and he'll be mean to the kids and make them cry".
Frankly, I realize this doesn't sound too earth-shattering, but I was really taken aback by it. Seriously? He'll be mean to his own kids and make them cry because he's mad that his wife went out to dinner with friends for two hours? But then I started to think about other things that have arisen over the last couple of years that she has mentioned - in and of themselves they would individually be considered isolated incidents with regard to her husband, but reading your story and all has made me wonder.
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Post by janedoe on Dec 24, 2009 14:15:51 GMT -5
In regards to the 'tolerated' abuse within churches/QF, etc.,
this is an issue that is being addressed among many, women, and what is ironic, is that abuse is spoken against in the Bible probably more than anything excluding hoarding wealth/exploiting the poor/workers, etc. [those are in Bible too, we just don't hear them preached about].
I believe, along with many, that one of the problems is one, the largest, is the focus on the submission scriptures, at the exclusion of all else, which is Clearly a flagrant abuse of scripture and I concur with those who term it Spiritual abuse--and those cases are growing. Why I have no qualms in saying that the church is apostate, pretty much.
Because abuse is not just physical its verbal, the entire book of Proverbs is about abuse and avoiding those who are abusive, including verbal abuse, what they termed as malice then. Anyway, we don't see church discipline like they once had, when it comes to rebuking abuse,
including verbal, malice, bitterness, etc. So there is at least, in the church, much to go by, as to how to see abuse or to even recognize it for what it is, in other words, its tolerated, even made excusable,
when the Bible is very clear in condemning abuse in all its forms. They do address unforgiveness but its in this way where abuse is enabled, and the victims of that abuse are told that its their 'duty' to forgive and to tolerate,
what is interesting though is that Jesus himself said, to 'confront' the brother or sister who has wronged you and IF, if they repent, then to forgive them,
and you've won back your brother/sister, same with the if you have wronged someone before you bring your gift to the altar FIRST go make it right with your brother or sister,
then He goes on to say agree with your adversary quickly lest at any time he brings you before the judge. There are numerous other scriptures too but the point is, that how we treat people, was and is at the most Highest importance to God,
and its this one thing, that is left out, of so much of the teachings today, there is no longer this fear that the judge stands at the door, so to speak. How we treat people, is taking for granted, and that in return also will impact how we allow people to treat us. It works both ways,
because if ill treatment is normalized, what the Bible calls iniquity, then we become desensitized to it and therefore, sure, we don't recognize it when we see it. I don't believe its just a matter of how one can cleverly hide it, though that is also mentioned in the Bible, that those things hidden one day will be manifest, in other words, we can hide our true nature from others and from ourselves even but not from God, who sees all, and because HE is Justice, eventually what one sows one will reap, etc. [what some call Karma]
But its interesting too because Jesus said, in the last days, Love will grow cold, because of iniquity. I wondered about what iniquity really is and it was something a dear friend, who is much older, a believer in God but not 'religious' per se, somewhat down to earth and well, just wise, in her old age,
and she mentioned to me something about 'family trees' and it dawned on me, how iniquity, which includes 'abuse' from child abuse to spousal abuse to even spiritual abuse IS passed down from generation to generation, particularly within families, that 'family tree',
we could call it the tree of iniquity, and what it means, when Jesus said, many will come to me saying Lord Lord but He will say, depart from me you workers of Iniquity.
I wondered about that too because those who come to Him are those who obviously Know about Him or know of Him because they did many 'wonderful' works in His name, they Healed in His name, they did miracles in His name, yet Jesus says,
depart from me, workers of iniquity.
So, in praying and seeking what this was...and digging in the word, I saw that iniquity is actually 'abuse', that includes verbal abuse, child abuse, spouse abuse, being domineering, controlling, demanding, unforgiving, insistent upon what one wants at the expense of another, without compassion, empathy, etc., etc., etc.,
that is what iniquity is, its malice, unkindness, bitterness, rage, wrath, hitting, violence,
it doesn't necessarily have to be brute violence either, verbal violence is included in that because the thing is, they All do damage, to another's soul, spirit, heart and mind.
And the thing about iniquity, is that it germinates, it poisons, and eventually you have nothing but people hating and abusing one another, in one form or the other.
Its destruction--a slow, sinister even somewhat invisible destruction, and what is so sinister about it, is that it can be cleverly masked, with religion and 'good works'.
That 'outside' appearance that we give others, but that bitterness comes from our hearts, from inside of us, in some worse than others, but what is it to be a 'worker' of?
For me, personally, because I was seeking answers to this in regards to my own life [because I grew up with horrid abuse that Did yes, have a horrible impact--it took years and still takes work, to not be poisoned by it], not only that but it also influences 'who' we have relationships with, where codependency comes in and that whole radar being off--why we get into abusive relationships, etc.,
and a lot of it really is 'learned behaviors' and 'environment'. We notice the blatant obvious kind of abuses, its those however that are masked that are harder to see,
and they are some of the most damaging. My mother was an expert at hiding who she really was behind closed doors, but worse, she hide from herself, even after she became Christian, maybe she really wasn't aware of just how abusive she was, or maybe she didn't care, maybe she found ways to 'justify' her actions, I don't know, on that one, can't judge the heart,
[yes, women can be just as horrid at abuse as men, in fact, its one of the types of abuse that is Still denied to this day, among professionals as well as feminists and so forth--but it Does happen, it throws in the face that whole 'puritanical Madonna myth' that is set up by patriarchy but it does happen--women are humans just like men are and Just as capable of evil just as men are--there are no such thing as 'angelic' humans].
But I do know, that she grew up with it as did my Nana as probably did her mother and so forth--its iniquity, passed down,
and so, when Jesus said, in the end days, Love will grow cold because of Iniquity,
it makes a lot of sense. Something I found in OT that was a shocker, was when God spoke of the curse of the law--the disobedience, not what HE was going to do but what comes about as a Result of sin--hate,
and the last two, were that man would hate/abuse his wife and children, and the last was that women would eat their young.
Meaning, that humanity goes contrary to what humans were created to be--rather than creatures of love, they become creatures of hate and abuse, even to their own children.
That is what sin is, what iniquity is, its abuse, its hatred, its malice, its selfishness, its murder---
but its all from 'hate'.
Anyway, just thought I'd throw it out here....its something to ponder on, anyway.
Jane
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Post by razingruth on Dec 25, 2009 12:32:39 GMT -5
Jane, Please get to a point and make it. We're not your parish/church. We don't need a lecture.
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Post by setfree on Mar 28, 2010 3:00:25 GMT -5
When my dh and I shared while we were newly-weds about the intimacy problems we were having (dh had no communication skills and expected instant obedience and instant sex, he wasn't getting either) with another couple, I was later chastised for "slandering" my husband. The wife was banned from having contact with me. She begged her husband saying, "I haven't heard her say anything negative about her husband lately ..."
How can you deal with anything, avoid dysfunctionally sweeping issues under the rug, have an opinion, stand up for yourself, or do conflict resolution if you are not allowed to say *anything* negative about your husband???
Journey, your story is riveting and it is making my husband feel very uncomfortable.
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Post by journey on Mar 28, 2010 12:03:51 GMT -5
((((((((setfree))))))))
There are others here, like you and I, who have had very similar experiences. We're not alone. It just felt like we were (for a long, long time)...
Btw, I haven't got past that post in the series so far... Needed to put it on hold for a little bit, while getting some other things squared away.
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Post by journey on Mar 28, 2010 12:09:06 GMT -5
btw, setfree, I think that the kind of behavior that these types of husbands have is indicative of a very HIGH likelihood that they are dealing with some sort of personality disorder or similar problem. What they do and the way they think is just not normal....but the patriarchal theology gives it a mantle of approval and lots of bible verses to throw in as a bonus, so instead of having our very REAL concerns and difficulties validated, we wives have our concerns minimized and we are lectured to be better helpmates...
Have you looked into personality disorders or various mental illnesses much? A personality disorder not something "fix-able," though some are more easy to live with than others... but, it at least really helps to explain a lot of the craziness (and may help you decide whether or not you want to spend the rest of your life with it or not----a very personal decision that each of us has to decide for herself).
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