|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Dec 29, 2009 11:51:40 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by journey on Dec 29, 2009 16:40:19 GMT -5
I look forward to more contributions from arrietty. There are so many parallels to our stories, but she's been "out" longer. I find her incredibly inspiring, affirming, and more.
Thanks, arrietty, for sharing pieces of your story!
|
|
|
Post by xara on Dec 29, 2009 17:04:14 GMT -5
Welcome Katrina.
|
|
syfr
New Member
Posts: 30
|
Post by syfr on Dec 29, 2009 22:31:13 GMT -5
The phrase "Making a virtue of necessity" comes to mind - if I'm going to be cut off from other people, not allowed to work outside the home, and subject to a man, I might as well convince myself I really want it that way.
|
|
|
Post by AustinAvery on Dec 30, 2009 12:54:59 GMT -5
I guess that is what had attracted me to fundamental Christianity in the first place, the sense of belonging and community. It most definitely is a false sense though if you're a person who thinks for themselves, found that out the hard way. The need for a community seems to be deeply seeded in our psyches. I am an on-again/off-again Unitarian Universalist, and I figured out early that UUs are generally people who don't buy religious dogma of any stripe, yet long for religious community. How else can you explain agnostics, and even atheists, who regularly attend church? Several women on this blog have written the one of the few down sides to leaving their churches or congregations has been the loss of that sense of community. What have you been able to do to replace that loss in your case? (And, of course, that being said, this blog itself is a community.)
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Dec 30, 2009 18:53:33 GMT -5
Arietty, your story is so moving. It really brings into focus one of the things we've been talking about, that religion gets used as a tool to legitimize abuses that otherwise would be more quickly recognized as intolerable. Your husband was already controlling you before you found "Above Rubies," but the teachings of "Above Rubies" taught you to accept, and even welcome, that control. Using God as a weapon is a horrible thing.
|
|
phatchick
Junior Member
Medicated for Your Protection
Posts: 80
|
Post by phatchick on Jan 2, 2010 0:02:46 GMT -5
I guess that is what had attracted me to fundamental Christianity in the first place, the sense of belonging and community. It most definitely is a false sense though if you're a person who thinks for themselves, found that out the hard way. Boy can I relate to that. Being female with a brain is probably the worst sin a fundy woman can commit. Especially when, like me, you feel a need to show off your intelligence studying the bible (which can cause a few problems right there, when what you read doesn't alway sync with what you're being taught). It's a very toxic enviroment for everyone but women seem to bear brunt of it.
|
|
|
Post by journey on Jan 2, 2010 0:58:38 GMT -5
Preach it. If you were born a woman "blessed" with a natural sense of insatiable curiosity, they'll do their darndest to chase it out of you. Starts with their interpretation of the story of Eve and it all goes downhill from there. It is not the environment I want for my girls...or my boys.
|
|
|
Post by rosa on Jan 2, 2010 22:52:31 GMT -5
Phatchick - that's what got me out of the faith, way back in middle school - I read the Bible in my confirmation classes, and then we moved to a new town where the schedule required two more years of confirmation classes, so I sat in the back and read instead of listening, and asked questions...which were generally shot down or shrugged off.
And I decided if they couldn't answer questions about their own book, I didn't have to listen to them.
|
|
|
Post by setfree on Apr 2, 2010 4:26:47 GMT -5
what a shock that YWAM were handing out Above Rubies! My mother had those about the house, it wasn't long before I got to the point of burning them.
Perhaps YWAM did that back then because they were free?
Since then, YWAM seems to have taken a more moderate view, and a strong stance against prejudice, sexism as well as racism.
Why Not Women? (2000) is a book by Loren Cunningham and David Joel Hamilton. It strongly commends women in leadership and ministry, using research from Christians for Biblical Equality. It speaks of the femicide, misogyny and the distortions of doctrine that keep women subordinate, marginalised and de-mobilised. Other than books from CBE it is one of the strongest books speaking up for the equality of men and women.
How the pharisees of my community hated it. And hated that I had in on our communal shelves. They needn't have worried. I'm sure I was the only one who ever read it, let alone agreed with it.
A big improvement on Above Rubies.
Here's some quotes from the book: "It is time for us to re-think some of our oldest beliefs and traditions. It is time for us to repent for whatever ways we have hindered God's work and misread his word. It is time for us to release women to be all God has called them to be ..."
"... we believe marriage is to be a partnership of equals ..."
"If you have held women back - repent of hurtful attitudes ... ask forgiveness for the way we have made women or anyone else into second-class citizens in the Kingdom of God. Let us lead the way into reconciliation and healing."
|
|
|
Post by Sierra on Apr 2, 2010 8:43:11 GMT -5
Why Not Women? (2000) is a book by Loren Cunningham and David Joel Hamilton. It strongly commends women in leadership and ministry, using research from Christians for Biblical Equality. It speaks of the femicide, misogyny and the distortions of doctrine that keep women subordinate, marginalised and de-mobilised. Other than books from CBE it is one of the strongest books speaking up for the equality of men and women. How the pharisees of my community hated it. And hated that I had in on our communal shelves. They needn't have worried. I'm sure I was the only one who ever read it, let alone agreed with it. A big improvement on Above Rubies. Here's some quotes from the book: "It is time for us to re-think some of our oldest beliefs and traditions. It is time for us to repent for whatever ways we have hindered God's work and misread his word. It is time for us to release women to be all God has called them to be ..." "... we believe marriage is to be a partnership of equals ..." "If you have held women back - repent of hurtful attitudes ... ask forgiveness for the way we have made women or anyone else into second-class citizens in the Kingdom of God. Let us lead the way into reconciliation and healing." That sounds like a great book! My church had such a hatred for female ministers, you could feel the bile dripping whenever they mentioned 'woman pastors.' They were supposed to be a symbol of all that was wrong with the modern world. You know, along with Madonna. I remember learning as a teenager that Quaker women were permitted to speak in meetings and thought that was the most exciting thing ever.
|
|
|
Post by musicmom on Apr 2, 2010 10:32:23 GMT -5
Sierra,
When I directed music in a Lutheran church, I never felt more diminished and less trusted as a woman and a person. They had such a negative attitude towards women, which didn't surprise me, after I read some quotes by Luther. They were horrible!
Even though I do have my issues with the Catholic church (as you all know:), they honor women so much more because of the influence of Mary. At least, that's why I think I feel better as a woman there. Plus, they have women reading the epistles and in various positions of influence, even though, not priests, of course. That does bother me, but I still feel so much more respected as a woman there, as opposed to in the conservative Lutheran church.
|
|
|
Post by Sierra on Apr 2, 2010 10:44:58 GMT -5
Sierra, When I directed music in a Lutheran church, I never felt more diminished and less trusted as a woman and a person. They had such a negative attitude towards women, which didn't surprise me, after I read some quotes by Luther. They were horrible! Even though I do have my issues with the Catholic church (as you all know:), they honor women so much more because of the influence of Mary. At least, that's why I think I feel better as a woman there. Plus, they have women reading the epistles and in various positions of influence, even though, not priests, of course. That does bother me, but I still feel so much more respected as a woman there, as opposed to in the conservative Lutheran church. I agree, Luther was pretty awful. Some historians I've read lately have been trying to make Luther's message empowering to women, and the mental gymnastics requisite to hold that position make me toss my cookies. Luther's message to women was, 'I'm sorry you exist. To make up for the waste you are, you can bear me a son.' I played the (electric) piano at my church (we didn't own our building, so we couldn't have a real piano). The song leader lived in a perpetual state of terror that I was going to corrupt the congregation with my Satanic arpeggios.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Apr 2, 2010 18:24:24 GMT -5
The ship was not YWAM, it was part of another ministry. I'm sure AR gets handed out by many people though as it is free and colorful. I have no idea if the ship espoused the anti-feminist stance of AR but I doubt it. There were also Chick tracts lying around, people just bring these things in and leave them (I used to leave AR in church foyers too).
As to YWAM I have known so many people seriously abused by them. Heard the same stories from people who attended completely different DTS's , people who didn't know each other. Horrible spiritual abuse went on under the shepherding teachings they were immersed in years ago (I have no idea what they teach now). I had two women friends who went to DTS and were told they had a "spirit of lust" and had to wear blanket like garments the whole time and be prayed over and have demons cast out. One was married and her husband was with her, one was single and had a breakdown after her time in YWAM. Again, these things happened at different DTS's and these people didn't know each other so the "a few bad apples" excuse I've heard YWAM believers use just doesn't wash with me.
I think the whole organization is WEIRD. Get hundreds of young people to save and beg money so they can go to a DTS (Disciple Training School, a short term intensive course that uses brainwashing techniques) and then save and beg some more so they can be sent overseas to do.. what? Exactly why do other countries need a bunch of 20 year olds indoctrinated in evangelism techniques? So they can convert people who can then save and beg so that they can go to their own DTS? It reminds me of Amway, I was often wondering if it was more about all that money generated into courses and not about anything real, the way Amway is about the sign up money and not about the soap.
|
|
|
Post by musicmom on Apr 2, 2010 20:58:28 GMT -5
Your comments about indoctrinating youth reminded me of something weird in the Catholic church.
I accompany a lot of high school kids at solo/ensemble time and one of them is a Catholic high school. The kids all have to go to this retreat called "Cairos" or maybe "Kairos" - not sure. But anyway, they keep the kids up most of the night and they are not allowed to tell the parents or anyone else what they do. This is a diocese-approved event!!! I was talking to one of the teachers and I told him that there's no way in a million years that I would let my kids go on some mystery retreat where they are forced to go without sleep and then not tell me anything. He laughed me off and said that the kids come back much more disciplined and easy to handle. I don't doubt it!!!! I was floored that he didn't care exactly how that was done - just that the kids were docile when they came home was good enough for him.
How stupid can parents be? Or do they figure they are doing their God-given duty to the church by handing over their children to whatever the church wants to do with them? Puzzled!!!
|
|
|
Post by kisekileia on Apr 4, 2010 19:31:37 GMT -5
Musicmom, that is CHILLING. Forced sleep deprivation is a huge red flag all on its own, but forced secrecy is far worse. I'm amazed that parents let their kids go to that.
|
|