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Barren
Jan 26, 2010 18:49:26 GMT -5
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jan 26, 2010 18:49:26 GMT -5
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Barren
Jan 26, 2010 20:20:14 GMT -5
Post by runawaybride on Jan 26, 2010 20:20:14 GMT -5
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Calulu))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Oh how many times did I hear "Is she your ONLY one?" with a nasty little upswing on only.
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Barren
Jan 26, 2010 20:36:38 GMT -5
Post by redheadedskeptic on Jan 26, 2010 20:36:38 GMT -5
Oh, Calulu, how awful that people felt like they had the right to take your suffering and make it so much worse. I am so sorry for all of your pain.
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Barren
Jan 26, 2010 20:52:08 GMT -5
Post by susan on Jan 26, 2010 20:52:08 GMT -5
Calulu, thank you so much for sharing! And what love you must have, to still care about protecting these people who behaved so hatefully toward you! I was so glad to see later on in your post that your precious daughter is still with you!!! Your church's teachings remind me of another thread I was reading on here, where someone was talking about how one of the differences between Christian Orthodoxy and Fundamentalism, is that Orthodoxy teaches a more generalized view that when sin entered the world, so did imperfection and disease -- and anyone and everyone can be affected by that, so they don't see it as a direct cause-and-effect relationship like Fundamentalists do. Whereas Fundamentalists see everything as totally personal. One of my former friends, who I seem to be slamming alot on here lately, literally believed that ANYTHING bad that happened in the physical realm, had a spiritual root. To her way of thinking, treating headlice as I did with olive oil, or as some others did with the Rid-stuff, was simply attacking the surface problem, and if you failed to get at the root it would just keep coming back 'til you learned whatever you needed to learn. But, since we stopped having contact with them we stopped getting headlice! Guess we learned what we needed to learn! I'm obviously not sure that we will never have to deal with it again -- but it's been nearly 2 years now! This same friend and I both had early miscarriages a couple of years ago -- and she asked me if God had showed me, yet, what were the reasons for my miscarriage. It had never even occurred to me to ask God why -- I just figured it was one of those things that happens sometimes, and I knew that statistically at age 43, I was more likely to miscarry than a younger woman. I felt sad of course -- but I never really felt led to seek God about why. I simply didn't see it as a punishment from God. I didn't realize it at the time, but I see now that I was already journeying away from fundamentalism and toward a more Orthodox Christianity -- although, I actually think I'm more liberal now than I am Orthodox. I'm so glad your dh has been so supportive! He obviously has his priorities straight! Unlike your "Job's Comforter" church "family!"
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Barren
Jan 26, 2010 21:45:26 GMT -5
Post by dangermom on Jan 26, 2010 21:45:26 GMT -5
I'm so sorry, Calulu. I know that was hard for you to write, and it was hard for me to read.
I'm sure many of the women here have miscarried--when I did, it was quite a shock, partly because I didn't know how common it is. I was surprised to find that people came out of the woodwork to tell me that it had happened to them too. We actually did find a physical reason, which is unusual (it was a random fatal genetic problem), but as far as metaphysical reasons go, there aren't any. It's just one of those things that can happen to anyone.
Going to church was hard for me at that time, just because emotions were close to the surface, and there was a bumper crop of babies that year. But I was loved and comforted by the people around me. I can't imagine what it would have been like to be tormented by them instead.
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phatchick
Junior Member
Medicated for Your Protection
Posts: 80
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Barren
Jan 26, 2010 22:25:25 GMT -5
Post by phatchick on Jan 26, 2010 22:25:25 GMT -5
I am so sorry to read this. I'm just heartsick at how you and your family were treated because of this; I have friends who've struggled with infertility issues and no matter what your beliefs, it hurts. zen hugs and thank you for being brave enough to share this.
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Barren
Jan 26, 2010 22:43:02 GMT -5
Post by journey on Jan 26, 2010 22:43:02 GMT -5
((((((calulu)))))))
You have endured so much. My hat is off to you.
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em
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Posts: 176
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Barren
Jan 26, 2010 22:56:00 GMT -5
Post by em on Jan 26, 2010 22:56:00 GMT -5
Aw. *hugs* How awful. Nasty, nasty people.
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Barren
Jan 26, 2010 23:13:34 GMT -5
Post by cindy on Jan 26, 2010 23:13:34 GMT -5
Calulu,
Thank you for writing this. I empathize with you.
It is disappointing enough to face the problems and to grieve the loss of what you want so much and never realize. This alone is a great struggle that can be enough to crush one's heart. Then comes the ridicule, the exclusion, the mustard colored looks, the rumour, and the denial of personhood that adds insult to injury.
I am sorry and I ache with you.
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Barren
Jan 26, 2010 23:29:29 GMT -5
Post by asteli on Jan 26, 2010 23:29:29 GMT -5
Calulu,
*hugs* I'm so sorry. I've had multiple miscarriages too (around 12, tried to stop counting, all before 7 weeks, though) & I can't imagine having to deal with that AND the nastiness you endured from your church.
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Hillary
Full Member
"Quivering Daughters ~ Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy" Now Available!
Posts: 129
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 0:07:19 GMT -5
Post by Hillary on Jan 27, 2010 0:07:19 GMT -5
Wow ~ thank you for writing this. {{Calulu}}
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 0:25:43 GMT -5
Post by doggie on Jan 27, 2010 0:25:43 GMT -5
this is when beliefs turn bad or evil. in this case it is pretty close to evil. they killed two people and hurt even more. they blame lack of faith as proof they are right. someone said without religion good people do good and bad people do bad. but for good people to do evil takes religion. there is a church here close to Portland Oregon who has had so many people die because they only believe in faith healing and laying on of the hands. there was actually a law passed to stop using faith as a defense for not taking your kid to the doctor. a whole family is on trial first the kids letting their 2 year old die then their parents letting their 16 year old die. I am sorry but they are evil and care more about their faith then their children.
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 0:37:35 GMT -5
Post by rogue0703 on Jan 27, 2010 0:37:35 GMT -5
I hurt so much for you. All of the stories I've read on No Longer Quivering have made me sad, but yours I identify with to at least a bit more. I grew up in something between "regular Christianity" and fundamentalism... so the topics on this blog always catch my attention, and there are parts of Vyckie's story that I identify with the kids on. However - yours I really feel. In the year my husband and I tried for a baby before we decided to take a break because of the impact on my health and emotions I had two miscarriages (one June 20, one October 13th, so not even four months apart - I'd have been entering my ninth month now with that first baby if I'd not miscarried) and I've had so many comments on that fact - both from friends and family. It hurts, and it just makes everything hurt worse... as if losing the babies wasn't hard enough. I am so sorry you had to go through all of that - the miscarriages as well as the problems from "friends" and everything with that last miscarriage. I'm just so sorry. I hurt for you so much. I hope you have found and continue to find some healing from all of it. ((hugs))!!!
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phatchick
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 0:53:50 GMT -5
Post by phatchick on Jan 27, 2010 0:53:50 GMT -5
there is a church here close to Portland Oregon who has had so many people die because they only believe in faith healing and laying on of the hands. there was actually a law passed to stop using faith as a defense for not taking your kid to the doctor. a whole family is on trial first the kids letting their 2 year old die then their parents letting their 16 year old die. I am sorry but they are evil and care more about their faith then their children. THANK YOU! IMO, that is one of the worst types of child abuse. It's one thing (again IMO) for an adult to make a decision to refuse medical treatment quite another to make that decision for a minor child who isn't old enough to make a reasoned decision about their faith and their health. We've had a similar case here in WI not too long ago and It just made me sick to think of what the poor kid went through.
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 3:42:52 GMT -5
Post by justflyingin on Jan 27, 2010 3:42:52 GMT -5
I'm really sorry, Calulu, that you had to go through this treatment/teachings at this church. Some people just don't know what they are talking about. One person, who suffered more than any of us have was the man Job in the Bible. Why did he suffer? It wouldn't be very comforting for him to know that there was a contest going on between God and the Devil and he was the subject, would it? In all his sufferings, he never learned "why?" It's really a question that doesn't lead you to a positive result. If there is obvious sin, that is one thing, but you can't go looking for "sin" when something bad happens, automatically. You can examine yourself, of course, but it isn't the right of anyone else to do. I'm so sorry. BTW... But I'd not call you "barren" unless you didn't have any children at all. When I think of my garden, I think of "barren" as producing no fruit. "Some" fruit is at least fruit/veggies. I'm happy with that, with the soil I have! I still don't think people should be confusing QF and "fundamentalists". It is sloppy theology and not the same thing at all. Those of you who do it lose credibility to those who read and know the difference.
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 8:01:01 GMT -5
Post by barbaraw on Jan 27, 2010 8:01:01 GMT -5
someone said without religion good people do good and bad people do bad. but for good people to do evil takes religion. I've heard that before, and personally, I think that any ideology has the capacity to do that. Lots and lots of people have done, and do, terrible things, for example, under the influence of a charistmatic leader. Yes, sometimes the leader says that God's telling them to do this, but other times, they're doing it because the leader, himself, in his own name, tells them to.
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em
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 12:37:55 GMT -5
Post by em on Jan 27, 2010 12:37:55 GMT -5
someone said without religion good people do good and bad people do bad. but for good people to do evil takes religion. I've heard that before, and personally, I think that any ideology has the capacity to do that. Lots and lots of people have done, and do, terrible things, for example, under the influence of a charistmatic leader. Yes, sometimes the leader says that God's telling them to do this, but other times, they're doing it because the leader, himself, in his own name, tells them to. yes, thank you, barbaraw. To say that only religion causes people to do stupid things or evil things is both extremely unfair and very untrue. Does it some times? Yes. But only when people are extremely, overzealously fanatical about it. But being that fanatical about ANY belief can cause a basically good person to go over the edge and do something terrible. It doesn't need to be religion.
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 12:49:17 GMT -5
Post by doggie on Jan 27, 2010 12:49:17 GMT -5
it is not saying only religious people can do evil. it is saying that for good people to do evil takes religion. it is really saying that these good people are doing evil in the name of good. that takes faith.
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 13:44:50 GMT -5
Post by margybargy on Jan 27, 2010 13:44:50 GMT -5
it is not saying only religious people can do evil. it is saying that for good people to do evil takes religion. it is really saying that these good people are doing evil in the name of good. that takes faith. Hi doggie, I'm no fan of religion, but I agree with Em and Barbaraw. Any ideology, taken to an extreme, can cause decent people to do bad things. Sometimes people get to a point where fantasy takes over. Real people don't matter any more. Sorry for what you went through Calulu.
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 15:22:40 GMT -5
Post by susan on Jan 27, 2010 15:22:40 GMT -5
I still don't think people should be confusing QF and "fundamentalists". It is sloppy theology and not the same thing at all. Those of you who do it lose credibility to those who read and know the difference. I see your point that not all fundamentalists are Quiverful. I do, however think that all Christian fundamentalists embrace Patriarchy to some degree.
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 15:59:53 GMT -5
Post by krwordgazer on Jan 27, 2010 15:59:53 GMT -5
Erg. In addition to the pernicious doctrines of Quiverfull, they were also embracing the Word of Faith doctrines about healing and faith. Q/F and Word of Faith, each by themselves, are bad enough. Together, it seems, they're pure poison. My sister was ostracized by a Word of Faith church for getting cancer. She got medical help and was able to get rid of the cancer. 20 years later, she's still cancer-free. But she'll never forget becoming an embarrassment to people who were supposed to be her "church family" because she didn't match their precious ideology. Whenever ideology trumps humanity, this is the result. Calulu, I've had two miscarriages, and my heart hurts for you. I don't know how you made it through nine of them, and being blamed for them too.
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 17:21:14 GMT -5
Post by Sierra on Jan 27, 2010 17:21:14 GMT -5
My sister was ostracized by a Word of Faith church for getting cancer. She got medical help and was able to get rid of the cancer. 20 years later, she's still cancer-free. But she'll never forget becoming an embarrassment to people who were supposed to be her "church family" because she didn't match their precious ideology. Whenever ideology trumps humanity, this is the result. Calulu, I've had two miscarriages, and my heart hurts for you. I don't know how you made it through nine of them, and being blamed for them too. Oh wow, KR, I'm so glad that she sought treatment and didn't let herself be swayed by the Word of Faith-ers. At my church they believed in divine healing but never told anyone not to go for treatment. Calulu, I am so sorry for what you had to go through. My mother had a similar experience with infertility - she miscarried just before joining our church and could never get pregnant again. She spent many years waiting for the "promised son" and for God to reopen her womb. She was blamed not only for her inability to conceive more children, but for her husband's later infidelity and refusal to come to church. It seems like no matter what is happening in the home in these QF/P churches, the blame always falls on the wife/mother.
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sarie
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Barren
Jan 27, 2010 18:46:03 GMT -5
Post by sarie on Jan 27, 2010 18:46:03 GMT -5
BTW... But I'd not call you "barren" unless you didn't have any children at all. When I think of my garden, I think of "barren" as producing no fruit. "Some" fruit is at least fruit/veggies. I'm happy with that, with the soil I have! While I can definitely understand why the word was used in the context of this story, I don't think the word "barren" should be applied to women at all. It suggests that a woman who can't have children cannot "bear fruit" in other ways ... how depressing, sad and untrue. (Not meant as a criticism of you, justflyingin - just a thought on the word in general.) Calulu, I'm so sorry.
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Barren
Jan 28, 2010 1:16:31 GMT -5
Post by denelian on Jan 28, 2010 1:16:31 GMT -5
this makes me weep. actually cry how horrific. there are a million reasons that miscarriage can happen - and MOST of them are not the mother's fault. those people, in your church - i will be nice and say they are JACKASSES. at best. i've had a miscarriage and an emergency abortion [me dying = emergency]. i will never be able to carry a pregnancy to 5 months... i have a disease. but according to your former church, this thing that i was *born* with, is somehow because of my sin? no. it's about their sin - their sin in judging you, and not loving you, and spreading scandalous gossip and bearing false witness. *hugs* i can't imagine how painful going thru it NINE TIMES must have been!
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calulu
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Barren
Jan 29, 2010 10:28:58 GMT -5
Post by calulu on Jan 29, 2010 10:28:58 GMT -5
Thanks everyone. This was something very difficult to share because how horrible the people at church acted.
My daughter is now a happy 18 year old who no longer has bouts of ITP. She gets shingles every couple of months, has IBS and the same sort of unnamed immune system illness as I. Even though her health isn't the greatest she goes to college full time and works as a bank teller. She is one of the great joys in my life.
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