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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 21, 2010 8:06:46 GMT -5
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Post by hopewell on Jul 21, 2010 8:35:45 GMT -5
A toxic relationship is just that --toxic, deadly. The lady you met gave you a healthy way to cope with the end. You both benefited from your brave action of stepping out of the culturally-approved option [staying married] and taking a new approach. "Who Moved My Cheese" in action--when it doesn't work the first 900 times, you really do have to try something totally different!
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Post by km on Jul 21, 2010 8:42:44 GMT -5
Very interesting to read. I had often wondered how Warren was now--and what his relationship with the younger children is like.
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Post by madame on Jul 21, 2010 9:17:59 GMT -5
Vyckie, I don't mean to say it wasn't right for you or for anyone else who has divorced their spouse whom they were in an unhealthy relationship with, but I do take issue with this statement because I don't believe it applies in every instance:
f you’re calculating how long ”till death do us part” might actually be ~ if you’re secretly fantasizing or, god-forbid, praying that he’ll suddenly keel over and die ~ it’s probably long past time to let go with a blessing: I release you to find your best happiness elsewhere.
Sometimes it's time to give an ultimatum or separate for a period of time. Sometimes it's time to seek good counseling (not necessarily from the church!!!!)
I have come to the point of fantasizing he would die along with the person who has stood between us since before we were even married! I still don't think that divorce would fix it for us, and I don't think the kids would be better off without him. To the contrary. They need him very much! In fact, I don't think that him being out of the picture would make things better in our case. In other cases, absolutely!
That said, that statement most definitely applies in other relationships, not just marriage!
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clogs
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Post by clogs on Jul 21, 2010 11:41:44 GMT -5
I'm with you there! With my abusive husband, I had the same thoughts but they weren't quite as obvious, right away. At first, when my abusive ex-husband came home hours later than he said he would, I'd worry that he might have had an accident. Sooner or later I went from "fearing" it to realizing I was actually hoping it could come true. And then I realized, if he died in an accident, I'd feel very unable to mourn his death (because I'd be feeling relief), and would feel guilty about that. It was about time to realize that God wasn't going to take him off my hands, and I was going to have to.
Not long after that, I went for the divorce. Never, ever did I admit to anyone that I had wished my ex dead. Thank you for saying it. It really speaks to the depth of misery we're in. I think wished myself dead too: I remember envying the dead when I drove past a cemetery one day. It must have been a case of "one of us has to die and I don't care much which one of us it is, but this has got to stop". The "til death do us part" vows were pretty strong.
It would be much better if we had the social support and permission to look after our families and our own health and happiness, and didn't have to sacrifice ourselves for so long to prove we did everything possible to keep the marriage going, long after it should have been over.
Even so, no matter how hard it is to decide to get divorce, there will always be someone willing to imply that you didn't try hard enough! While I've learned to take people's judgment with a smile now, I would also like to see myself get spitting mad about it sometimes!
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em
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Post by em on Jul 21, 2010 11:46:48 GMT -5
Good post, Vyckie. And I agree. Nobody who's left a toxic or abusive relationship (of any kind) has regret for leaving -- just maybe for not leaving sooner. I hope this post can help give people in your old situation the courage to end it and make life better for not only themselves but everyone else involved.
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Post by anatheist on Jul 21, 2010 12:31:02 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing this with us, Vyckie. I'm glad to hear that Warren has been improving his relationship with your younger kids.
I also didn't think that divorce was an option until the night that I actually left. We were already in counseling, but it was actually making me hate him more to see him pretending to the counselor that he was doing his best to repair the marriage.
I had wished him dead, but I thought that I would be more likely to kill myself. He was threatening to cut off my access to birth control so that I'd have to have a child with him, and I knew that I couldn't let that happen at any cost.
I've never had a single regret about getting divorced.
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Post by rosa on Jul 21, 2010 13:22:59 GMT -5
Madame, divorce doesn't have to mean your kids lose their father - I've seen cases where a divorce gives kids the space to have a relationship with each parent that's separate from the parents relationship with each other. My stepsisters have that - they manage to be close to both parents, instead of being pawns between them.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 21, 2010 13:34:04 GMT -5
Be sure to listen to the video "According to You" in this blog post. I came across the song recently and it's really been good to realize that just because you've come to the point where you cannot think of one good thing to say about another person with whom you've developed an unhealthy relationship, does not mean that person doesn't actually have any redeeming qualities. It's helpful to me to keep in mind that others might see the person quite differently ~ and therefore will probably have a much better influence on them. Sometimes just having their good qualities recognized and affirmed is enough to turn a person around in their relational patterns. I know that one of my daughters had developed a reputation for being a bully ~ but when I put her in a new environment with different people who didn't know anything about her ~ they accepted her immediately and were very friendly toward her ~ it's made all the difference in her attitude and when she is with that set of friends, she's a total sweetheart ~ that's carried over to all of her relationships as she thinks of herself differently now too.
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Post by arianadream on Jul 21, 2010 14:48:33 GMT -5
What a great post! (I really like that song "According to You", too.) And it's true that this applies to more types of relationships than marriage, too. I wouldn't call my situation toxic or abusive in any way, but I'm 31 and have been living with my parents since leaving college. I took care of my father till he died of Parkinson's in 2005, and I've taken care of my mom when she has MS attacks and I helped take care of my twin brother when he had a stroke this January. (Insane thing to happen, I know.) I also run interference between my mom and brother (we have regular personality clashes) and although I love them both very much, I occasionally get very frustrated. I am unemployed and financially dependent on my retired mother, and I feel like I am not continuing to grow. It took some time, but I've been talking with my counselor about it and I am now applying to jobs in another town and will be moving out. I'll miss my family but I think it will actually be really good for all of us, and I'll be able to grow and change and take charge of my own life, rather than always taking care of my family. It's time for me to become an adult, in a way. I'm talented and educated and have a master's degree, so I should be able to make my own way once I no longer feel stifled by living with my mother, in her house and dependent on her financially.
This is a fairly personal thing for me to talk about - I'm always self-conscious about my current situation and my efforts to become more independent. It's been tough for me to admit that although devotion to family is admirable, this type of dependency is fairly unhealthy. It's time for me to accept that my family will be okay without me, and it's time for me to take care of myself. It's a big step for me to move out, and I'm really hoping it will happen. My mom is very supportive of the plan, I have a living situation set up and a great social network in my new town, I just need a job before I can move. I have my first interview tomorrow morning... *crosses fingers*
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Post by arietty on Jul 21, 2010 18:08:27 GMT -5
arianadream that's a good reminder that we can get into these kinds of relationships in all kinds of ways. Reading your post made me remember how it occurred to me one day when I was first divorcing and a ton of condemnation was coming down on my head that if this relationship had been any other kind people would have been screaming at me to leave it. If it was a parent treating me like that, a sibling, a live in boyfriend.. I would have been lectured about my dependency and the dysfunction of the situation would have been drummed into my head by the well meaning. But with marriage lots of potential negatives (dependency, enmeshment, one person having a lot of control) are lauded as positives to strive for, or at the very least as the default setting. Thinking about Vyckie's situation, imagine if she was living with her dad and he was lecturing and wearing down the children like that--NO ONE would encourage her to stay in that setting. I've said it before her.. Christians make marriage into an entity that is more important than the individuals in it. Everything must be sacrificed to keep the entity intact. This in itself is a dysfunctional view of the marriage relationship. I'm sure you will do well ariana and your family relationships will be renewed by getting some distance and Independence GOOD LUCK on the jobs!!
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Post by susan on Jul 22, 2010 6:18:08 GMT -5
I've said it before her.. Christians make marriage into an entity that is more important than the individuals in it. Everything must be sacrificed to keep the entity intact. This in itself is a dysfunctional view of the marriage relationship. Yes to this! Reading Vyckie's excellent post and all these excellent comments made me suddenly realize that Jesus' admonishments about divorce were (IMO) strongly focused on protecting women in a society where they had no rights and their husbands could just summarily divorce them and leave them destitute. It's so bizarre that these admonishments are now more commonly used to entrap women in unhealthy relationships. Yes, ariana, and please keep us posted!
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Post by freefromtyranny on Jul 22, 2010 10:08:28 GMT -5
if this relationship had been any other kind people would have been screaming at me to leave it. If it was a parent treating me like that, a sibling, a live in boyfriend.. I would have been lectured about my dependency and the dysfunction of the situation would have been drummed into my head by the well meaning. That was my conclusion as well. It finally dawned on me that I would not allow a friend to treat me that way. Not at all. I had no tolerance for that behavior from anyone else. That realization then led to the realization that if I were allowed biblically to rebuke a friend on their behavior then I am certainly allowed to rebuke a spouse as well. It didn't go well. So, I took the next step. Sometimes self-preservation kicks in and you have to make a change.
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em
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Post by em on Jul 22, 2010 10:18:01 GMT -5
What a great post! (I really like that song "According to You", too.) And it's true that this applies to more types of relationships than marriage, too. I wouldn't call my situation toxic or abusive in any way, but I'm 31 and have been living with my parents since leaving college. I took care of my father till he died of Parkinson's in 2005, and I've taken care of my mom when she has MS attacks and I helped take care of my twin brother when he had a stroke this January. (Insane thing to happen, I know.) I also run interference between my mom and brother (we have regular personality clashes) and although I love them both very much, I occasionally get very frustrated. I am unemployed and financially dependent on my retired mother, and I feel like I am not continuing to grow. It took some time, but I've been talking with my counselor about it and I am now applying to jobs in another town and will be moving out. I'll miss my family but I think it will actually be really good for all of us, and I'll be able to grow and change and take charge of my own life, rather than always taking care of my family. It's time for me to become an adult, in a way. I'm talented and educated and have a master's degree, so I should be able to make my own way once I no longer feel stifled by living with my mother, in her house and dependent on her financially. This is a fairly personal thing for me to talk about - I'm always self-conscious about my current situation and my efforts to become more independent. It's been tough for me to admit that although devotion to family is admirable, this type of dependency is fairly unhealthy. It's time for me to accept that my family will be okay without me, and it's time for me to take care of myself. It's a big step for me to move out, and I'm really hoping it will happen. My mom is very supportive of the plan, I have a living situation set up and a great social network in my new town, I just need a job before I can move. I have my first interview tomorrow morning... *crosses fingers* I feel for you. I too have been stuck at home since I graduated. My mom has MS too, and I know how rough that can be. I couldn't imagine having my dad have a debilitating illness too. And your brother having a stroke? Geez. You must be an incredibly strong, patient, caring person to spend all those years taking care of your family. I hope they appreciate all you've done for that and that they aren't going to get mad at you for moving out and trying to start your own life. Good luck to you.
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Post by arietty on Jul 22, 2010 18:05:55 GMT -5
I've said it before her.. Christians make marriage into an entity that is more important than the individuals in it. Everything must be sacrificed to keep the entity intact. This in itself is a dysfunctional view of the marriage relationship. Yes to this! Reading Vyckie's excellent post and all these excellent comments made me suddenly realize that Jesus' admonishments about divorce were (IMO) strongly focused on protecting women in a society where they had no rights and their husbands could just summarily divorce them and leave them destitute. It's so bizarre that these admonishments are now more commonly used to entrap women in unhealthy relationships. That is very interesting. Maybe KR would like to weigh in on whether she sees scriptural admonishments about divorce to be about protecting women. I would like to believe this was the case (coming from Jesus in particular) but I would have to go back and reread a lot from that perspective and umm.. I just can't do it, lol. And then there's all the Paul parts that might add too much annotation to Jesus's words. It's true that a women divorced in those times was disgraced and ruined so I can see how warning men about leaving their wives has a protective element.
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Post by nikita on Jul 22, 2010 19:16:41 GMT -5
Without going back and re-reading passages I've read a thousand times (no lie) I would tend to support the 'protection of women' interpretation. When Jesus spoke of divorce it was, as I recall, in correlation to the current laws which were very loose and offered no protection to the wives involved. Just say, 'I divorce you' three times and poof! no more wife. In a time where womens' lives centered on their homes that would be a devastating set of circumstances. 'What God has joined together let not man put asunder' is the usual quotation of Jesus to admonish a policy of no divorce. From what I recall of Paul's teachings (off the top of my head here) it had more to do with not being polygamous (husband of one wife) which got parlayed into 'married only one time' by teachers. But Paul did give instances when it was okay to leave. Not being unequally yoked together and 'if the unbeliever departs let him depart', the person is not bound in those circumstances. Adultery is another. Those are really the main ones I recall. I know that in Catholicism, which is very anti-divorce, there are definite grounds for annulment instead, things which invalidate the marriage from the beginning. And those things, from a pastoral viewpoint, have tended to be liberalized since Vatican II in the mid-sixties. And it's not really the divorce that gets you in the hot water as much as the remarriage without an annulment. Separation is not really a problem, just joining with someone else is the problem. Grounds for annulment (meaning the marriage was never valid) include refusal of one partner to have children, insanity, never consummating the marriage, adultery, etc but also now include not being mature enough to make the lifelong commitment to the sacrament of marriage required of a couple or fraud of some kind on one partner's side. These are some reasons. I helped an old friend who wanted to convert get an annulment due to her first husband's refusal to have children and it was granted and her second marriage became valid and she was able to convert. That is a grounds that I never heard of in Protestantism but is a big one in Catholicism. Like I said, it's whoever is doing the interpreting controls the rules. There's a lot of wiggle room in the scriptures which different religions use differently depending on who is doing the interpreting and deciding. The 'let the unbeliever depart' clause can be interpreted narrowly as 'he left so I'm free now' or 'he left in spirit due to his complete lack of commitment to the marriage, his apostasy, his physical/emotional abuse, etc'. I saw a case (in my cult days) where a man molested his eleven year old stepdaughter which completely threw everyone for a loop, it was just not heard of at the time in our group, and he was divorced in a heartbeat using 'adultery' as grounds since we weren't entirely clear on what to call it but it was absolutely clear that he needed to get gone immediately. So pastorally there's decisions that have to be made where someone who isn't thinking pastorally can keep things completely intellectual and sterile and without any relation to real people living real lives, which I think is what some of the strict fundamentalist teachers do. They get caught up in the rules to the point that the people involved disappear. I'll take the pastoral position any day over that. Regarding the piece Vyckie wrote, it really resonated with me because the advice she gave is exactly what I did in my own life. I married a man who didn't want to be married to me (surprise!) but he took a vow as did I and we stayed together anyway. And it wasn't hard, he was easy to live with in general but there was a sadness permeating it all. After many years of this (I won't go into the excruciating detail here), I looked at him one day and realized that things were not improving and he seemed resigned and depressed and that he would never leave me. He was no longer a believer but his conscience was informed by our cult days and he would stay with me forever as a result. And I had no grounds for divorce at all given the standard biblical reasons nor was he going to depart. But the reality was that I was faced with a man who was going to go to his grave depressed being married to someone he didn't want to be married to. And I just suddenly up and told him one evening, 'I release you'. I told him I didn't want to spend my life watching a man I care about continually sink into depression trying to do the right thing and that if he could be happy somewhere else then I would make the decision and his conscience would be clear. Shocked doesn't begin to describe it but he agreed and we separated and then divorced. We remain friends and he did remarry and he has a very happy active life and is more alive in these last ten years than I ever saw him while I was married to him. He just needed me to let him go. I still love him but I had to realize that loving him meant giving him his life back so he could live it and it has worked out. And I'm not doing too badly either. It's not the life long marriage with five kids deal I thought I was getting when I agreed to marry him, but it is my life and I'm happy with it. So I really was shocked when I read what Vyckie wrote because I didn't know anyone else who had done that. Most people I know who are divorced are part of some huge cataclysm of pain and anger and recriminations and push/pull over things and kids etc. I had spent so much of my marriage expecting him to leave at any moment that I wasn't emotionally invested in the separation to the degree I might have been otherwise. I had separated in my mind so often that it wasn't cataclysmic any longer. I had none of that emotional turmoil, all it really took was letting him go... He still calls me every week 'to hear your voice and find out if you're okay'. Which is weird but nice. He is the most confusing man ever born on this earth, I swear.
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Post by lg61820 on Jul 22, 2010 19:44:17 GMT -5
Vyckie, I applaud your honesty. I have never actually been able to admit that I wished my husband dead. However, daily fantasies of what life would be like if he were dead are really just the same thing!
I sobbed and sobbed prior to telling him I was leaving. I didn't want him to be mad at me! A year later, before I filed for divorce I did the same thing.
We've been separated 6 years now. I'm determined to get the divorce moving again. People are starting to suggest that I want to go back to him. NOT TRUE. I am having a very difficult time getting that "til death do us part" out of my head.
We are good friends, I trust him and we spend a lot of time together with the grandchildren. But I enjoy living alone and I think he is getting to enjoy it.
I haven't fantasized his death for a long time.
Again, I find your honesty on this topic amazingly refreshing. One thing I do know about your ex-husband: There will never likely be anyone else as fascinated with your grandchildren as he will be. LG
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Post by coleslaw on Jul 22, 2010 19:56:49 GMT -5
By Jesus' day, the practice of writing a Ketubah, or marriage contract, was common in Judaism: www.shop-ketubah.com/content/view/13/27/Furthermore, it had been the case even longer that if a man divorced his wife, he had to return her dowry. And he couldn't divorce her by saying "I divorce thee" 3 times. He had to give her a written document, called a get, so that she would be able to remarry. Divorced women did remarry, although men of the priestly caste were forbidden from marrying divorcees.
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Post by nikita on Jul 22, 2010 20:51:18 GMT -5
Okay, first of all I have to correct one of my previous statements. I get the Catholic part mixed up with the Protestant part of my past and sometimes this happens. Adultery is not grounds for divorce in Catholicism because there is no divorce in that faith. Annulment is the option, and adultery is not a grounds for annulment. I am remembering this stuff from some years ago and cannot deal emotionally with looking it up so I apologize for any errors. I just can't do the scriptures and stuff this week -- too emotionally upsetting right now. Second, coleslaw you're probably right about the bill of divorcement thing, that rings a bell. I am sure there's a 'three times' thing also though. But like I said, I am not emotionally able to research this right now so I'm just going on what I remember from the New Testament and what I was taught. Again, sorry for vague-ing that up for you there.
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Post by usotsuki on Jul 22, 2010 20:54:41 GMT -5
The three times thing is Islam.
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Post by nikita on Jul 22, 2010 21:40:07 GMT -5
The three times thing is Islam. Thank you! I knew it was somewhere. It all falls into place now....
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Post by anatheist on Jul 22, 2010 22:39:43 GMT -5
Grounds for annulment (meaning the marriage was never valid) include refusal of one partner to have children, insanity, never consummating the marriage, adultery, etc but also now include not being mature enough to make the lifelong commitment to the sacrament of marriage required of a couple or fraud of some kind on one partner's side. It makes me pissed off that refusing to have children is grouped in with insanity, adultery, and immaturity. I guess my marriage had grounds for divorce or annulment on several counts. Of course, by Christian standards, all of them made me out to be the bad guy.
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Post by arianadream on Jul 22, 2010 22:59:55 GMT -5
arianadream that's a good reminder that we can get into these kinds of relationships in all kinds of ways. Reading your post made me remember how it occurred to me one day when I was first divorcing and a ton of condemnation was coming down on my head that if this relationship had been any other kind people would have been screaming at me to leave it. If it was a parent treating me like that, a sibling, a live in boyfriend.. I would have been lectured about my dependency and the dysfunction of the situation would have been drummed into my head by the well meaning. But with marriage lots of potential negatives (dependency, enmeshment, one person having a lot of control) are lauded as positives to strive for, or at the very least as the default setting. Thinking about Vyckie's situation, imagine if she was living with her dad and he was lecturing and wearing down the children like that--NO ONE would encourage her to stay in that setting. I've said it before her.. Christians make marriage into an entity that is more important than the individuals in it. Everything must be sacrificed to keep the entity intact. This in itself is a dysfunctional view of the marriage relationship. I'm sure you will do well ariana and your family relationships will be renewed by getting some distance and Independence GOOD LUCK on the jobs!! I'm not sure that I would call the family relationship dysfunctional, but it is tough when you have adult children living at home and you can't quite seem to make the transition from child to housemate. It's tough to change the parent/child dynamic, and when you can't live as equals it's very tough! And my mom is actually trying to treat us as adults and equals. It's just a difficult situation for some people. Yes, ariana, and please keep us posted! Thanks to both of you! I'm sure something will work out, and my interview this morning went quite well. I should find out next week if I'm getting called back for a follow-up interview. The job is looking better and better, with benefits and a lot of positive points, plus my living situation, while still needing to work some kinks out, looks like it'll fall into place fairly quickly once I get a job. I feel for you. I too have been stuck at home since I graduated. My mom has MS too, and I know how rough that can be. I couldn't imagine having my dad have a debilitating illness too. And your brother having a stroke? Geez. You must be an incredibly strong, patient, caring person to spend all those years taking care of your family. I hope they appreciate all you've done for that and that they aren't going to get mad at you for moving out and trying to start your own life. Good luck to you. Em, I sympathize! I'm sorry to hear about that, and please let me know if you ever need to rant about it. My family is lucky in that my mom's MS is the relapsing/remitting kind, and she is on a medication that has successfully prevented her from having more than one or two relapses for over ten years. In the summer of 2008 she had some balance and vision issues and asked me to drive home from a concert instead of her, and after that she got worse and had to spend a month and a half mostly in bed because her balance and vision were pretty bad, and she was exhausted all the time. So I drove her anywhere she needed to go and cooked all the meals. She did get better, and things got back to normal, but it was good that I was around to help. As for my dad, he had Parkinson's Disease and had difficulty swallowing. Finally he had to have a gastric tube put in, through which he received all his nutrition and medications for three years. My mom, my brother, and I took turns doing that every couple of hours, and eventually Dad was completely bedridden. He passed away at home, and although it was a very difficult time, my mom told me I would never regret taking care of my father, and she was right. My brother was perfectly healthy with no warning signs or risk factors, and in January he was only 30 years old when he started complaining of migraines, then woke up one morning with all sense of equilibrium lost. We spent a few days arguing with his doctor about what was wrong, with a couple of misdiagnoses, and he started to get loopy and confused. When we finally took him to the hospital, it turned out he'd had a series of small strokes and had to have emergency surgery to relieve pressure on his brain. He spent a week and a half in the hospital following surgery, then another month in a rehab facility, learning to walk again. He had a lot of memory problems, too. He is now almost completely back to normal, although he can't drive yet and needs rides to social engagements and doctor's appointments. He is auditing a trigonometry class at the community college (a class he got an A+ in last fall) to see if he's ready to continue working on his computer science degree, which he was doing at the time of the stroke. He says it's a lot harder than it should be, but he's going to see if he can keep up. I will admit that although I've been taking care of my family, I've also been having my own problems with depression and lack of confidence that have messed up my own ability to be independent. However, with a great counselor and some time and patience, I've gotten to the point where I feel like I can really succeed on my own now, probably moreso than I could if I stayed with my family.
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Post by nikita on Jul 22, 2010 23:02:47 GMT -5
It's not grouped together like they are the same thing, they are just different reasons. The refusal to have children clause is because in Catholic marriage you have to allege that you are going to have children or try to anyway. No amount of children is required, just an intention to have a kid as a result of the marriage. So if one partner refuses to fulfill that intention against the other partners' will, then that is grounds for annulment. If neither partner is troubled by the 'no kids' thing then nobody would be asking for an annulment so it wouldn't really come up. No one goes around asking why you are childless so you could live in marital bliss without kids and it's just between the two of you and your own faith. But in my friend's case her husband just flat out refused once they were married to consider having any children and she really wanted kids. It's so non-negotiable, either you do or you don't have kids. She was not held to her marriage in that circumstance. She is now happily remarried with three kids so I think it worked out pretty well for her. If you're not a practicing Catholic then this isn't really an issue for you.
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Post by krwordgazer on Jul 23, 2010 0:29:31 GMT -5
Arietty said: Yes, I definitely think Jesus' words on divorce were mostly about protecting women, not about restraining them (they were already restrained plenty!) But I'm looking into this a little deeper and will probably post more later. In any event, I'm very happy to hear that even Warren is happier. This divorce was a win-win for everyone.
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