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Post by Sierra on Aug 21, 2010 12:53:45 GMT -5
As far as I could tell, eating disorders were absolutely rampant in that school, most visible in girls from the more extreme churches represented in the community. Any teacher or other adult who tried to address it (and I did numerous times) with parents, administrators or counselors were told there was not a problem. One principal told me that "our girls are just naturally thin and beautiful. It's the glow of knowing Jesus". Oh my God. This discussion is really eye-opening for me. I, too, knew not a single overweight girl over the age of 13 in my extended group of Message families. At the time, looking at them all just further convinced me of my inferiority. They didn't appear to work at it. Looking back now, I see so many opportunities for them to conceal an eating disorder. For instance, at meal times they were responsible for feeding their younger siblings. They could easily have skipped an entire meal without anyone noticing, because they were present feeding the babies. I wonder if the evangelical/fundamentalist obsession with modesty doesn't contribute to the prevalence of eating disorders in young girls. We weren't allowed to do much of anything to feel better about our appearance: no makeup to conceal our zits, no makeup to enhance anything we liked; no 'worldly' clothes; no hair cutting; no trends to make us feel 'hip.' The girls pretty much wore standard attire: modest shirts and long skirts. Literally the only thing we could do to beautify ourselves was starve.
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Post by amyrose on Aug 21, 2010 13:21:23 GMT -5
I think in some Fundamentalist/Evangelical communities, the perfect storm exists to trigger eating disorders. A theory I've often heard is that these disorders are a way to control a world where a patient feels a lack of control. Women and girls in any community that practices any form of patriarchy lack control over their lives and choices. And many of the girls that I feared would die, they were so thin, were the ones who already knew that they would be forced into a marriage at a very young age and not of their own choosing. Some who weren't facing that future knew that they would be allowed a semester or two of college merely for the purpose of finding a husband and never be able to pursue any dream of a career. The students all referred to the nearby Evangelical college as "Marriage U", and a lot of the girls had no other choice for college.
The other issue in these groups that is often considered to be related to the development of eating disorders is perfectionism. Fundamentalism, particularly for women, demands perfection. The demand that you do all things perfectly and the implication that any faltering or failure to meet that standard is grave sin nearly destroyed me in the years I spent at that school, and I was not entrenched in that sort of religious community outside of school. The fact that many of the girls coped with that with eating disorders really doesn't surprise me.
And the other thing was this oft-stated notion that Christian girls are always more beautiful than non-Christian girls. I have encountered that in less suppressive Evangelical groups. Modest clothing is encouraged--but not to the extreme--and "natural" looking make-up is allowed (only "natural"--I once sat through a teachers' meeting about the evils of "unnatural" nail polish colors on the girls, like the school colors of blue and gold). But the girls were supposed to be perfectly put together within those boundaries as if it would somehow prove that Christians were better. So being overweight would not be acceptable.
Then you throw in the disturbing attitudes about women's bodies and sexuality on top of that all. (Read the story of Jessica Simpson being told she was too curvy for Christian music as a teenager). So you have young teens who have no control over their future, live with the demands of perfection, must prove that they love Jesus by being perfectly (but "naturally" and "modestly") pretty, and can't look too womanly or sexual----it's the perfect recipe for eating disorders.
I'm sure no research will ever be available since this is not a population that seeks mental health treatment or acknowledges problems like this.
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Post by madame on Aug 21, 2010 17:26:35 GMT -5
Sierra, Thanks for sharing your story. Reading this chapter was painful and I can't imagine how hard it must have been to write it, let alone live through it!
I also developed an eating disorder in my teens. I still can't put my finger on every factor that led to it, but definitely the feeling of lack of control, of needing to be perfect, and never measuring up to my dad's standard played a role.
I also didn't exactly want to be a woman as my father expected me to be. He wanted us to stay in his home until we married, and I wanted to go out and be independent. My mother also had little good to say about my desire to be independent, as she always said we are first dependent on God, and as a wife, in the future, I would depend on my husband.
I guess it helped that my father was proud of me and expressed this pride when I did leave and when things went well for me. I was, after all, his first daughter (of 4), and my eldest brother tendend not to argue so much but just do his thing. I always sought my parent's support and agreement, and struggled doing anything they didn't give their blessing to.
Branham is extreme in his misogyny, but I think most patriocentrics are misogynists. They may not say that Satan designed Eve's body, but they will make comments that clearly imply they don't trust their wives and women in general, and that women ought to keep their gossipping mouths shut.
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Post by madame on Aug 22, 2010 14:46:08 GMT -5
Martha Peace's "kind reply" to a young woman who is suffering bulimia: Q: I have a "secret" sin that no one knows about. I control my weight by making myself throw up after I eat. I feel really foolish and embarrassed and don't want anyone to know. What do you think? A: Making yourself throw up after you eat is what medical doctors call bulimia. Bulimia is wrong for two reasons: First, it can cause serious medical problems such as damage to your esophagus and your teeth. Second, it is a sin because overeating is gluttony, throwing up is a lack of self-control, and wanting to be thin so badly that you are willing to sin is idolatry. It is likely that you feel guilty and embarrassed about this, but, since God "gives grace to the humble," I strongly suggest that you get help from the elders in your church. They, likely, will send you to a medical doctor for an examination and also will assign a godly, older woman in the church to disciple you and hold you accountable. Sinful eating patterns tend to be habitual and the change must not only be outward but also in your heart by what you think. God wants us to be grateful for the food we have and not to abuse our bodies. He also does not want us to eat in a gluttonous manner but by His grace to put on self-control.
Reading this made me want to throw something at her and hug the poor girl. I sure hope that the "medical doctor" the elders send her to is caring enough to get her some proper counseling. There is nothing worse you can do to someone who already lives in shame, wishing she had enough self-control to stop eating the way she does, who daily makes new promises that she will stop her sinful behavior, who lies in bed every night fearing she may just not be saved, than to offer such "counseling". And send her to a room full of men to talk about her most shameful secret? There are no words for that advice.... marthapeace.com/qa/questions.html
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Post by Sierra on Aug 22, 2010 19:05:12 GMT -5
Wow, Madame, I can't even begin to imagine receiving that kind of advice during the worst throes of my eating disorder. I might have killed myself. This woman's ignorance is profound and dangerous. Lack of self-control? What the f**king f**k! I am contemplating sending her an email to let her know exactly how much harm her "advice" might have done to that young girl. The proper, "Christian" response ought to be to provide the girl with confidential medical counseling. Never, ever to parade her before the church elders. Do church elders ever help as much as they hurt in the very personal matters assigned to them? I know for a fact that none of the elders in my church were in any way counseled or trained or even vetted for their ability to deal with complex familial and personal problems, yet it was to them that wives were to plead their cases if their husbands were abusive, or if a child was suicidal... that kind of power needs checks and balances. ETA: What's really stunning here, too, is the difference in self-perception between this young girl and myself. I was anorexic; she was bulimic. I felt virtuous for my ability to withdraw from bodily "temptations" - she felt that she was in perpetual sin. Later, when I "graduated" from anorexia to binge eating disorder, I began to experience the same sense of shame, but I never thought of what I was doing as sin (I felt lax, but I no longer had the energy to care whether I got fat or I went to hell - my soul and body were equally burnt out). If my eating disorder had been "sin" to me in the beginning, though, on top of all my other "sins," I would have very likely gone over the edge. As it was, I faced all sorts of interesting consequences for my "behavior" within the church group (which I'll address in another entry, hence "part 2").
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Post by Sierra on Aug 22, 2010 19:06:41 GMT -5
Also, amyrose, everything you say makes perfect sense - and indeed, I've thought of many of the same pressures when I've tried to analyze what drove me into my eating disorder. But never once did it occur to me that any Message girl other than myself might have been struggling with her weight! The veneer of perfection was so strong that it took your comment, four years after my escape, to even dawn on me! I'm still reeling...
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Post by madame on Aug 23, 2010 3:46:08 GMT -5
Wow, Madame, I can't even begin to imagine receiving that kind of advice during the worst throes of my eating disorder. I might have killed myself. This woman's ignorance is profound and dangerous. Lack of self-control? What the f**king f**k! I am contemplating sending her an email to let her know exactly how much harm her "advice" might have done to that young girl. The proper, "Christian" response ought to be to provide the girl with confidential medical counseling. Never, ever to parade her before the church elders. Do church elders ever help as much as they hurt in the very personal matters assigned to them? I know for a fact that none of the elders in my church were in any way counseled or trained or even vetted for their ability to deal with complex familial and personal problems, yet it was to them that wives were to plead their cases if their husbands were abusive, or if a child was suicidal... that kind of power needs checks and balances. ETA: What's really stunning here, too, is the difference in self-perception between this young girl and myself. I was anorexic; she was bulimic. I felt virtuous for my ability to withdraw from bodily "temptations" - she felt that she was in perpetual sin. Later, when I "graduated" from anorexia to binge eating disorder, I began to experience the same sense of shame, but I never thought of what I was doing as sin (I felt lax, but I no longer had the energy to care whether I got fat or I went to hell - my soul and body were equally burnt out). If my eating disorder had been "sin" to me in the beginning, though, on top of all my other "sins," I would have very likely gone over the edge. As it was, I faced all sorts of interesting consequences for my "behavior" within the church group (which I'll address in another entry, hence "part 2"). I doubt emailing her would make her retract her words. They are there for any suffering girl or woman who goes to her website to see. I have wondered whether she fabricated the question in order to address the issue of eating disorders, or whether she modified a question because I can't imagine ever asking what anyone thinks about stuffing my face and then vomiting. When I finally talked about it, it was with much fear and shame, not seeking anyone's opinion of the actual "practice". I also wonder whether elders ever truly help people. There is this view in the fundie world that everything which ails us is sin. I have even heard Mark Driscoll say something in the lines of "the Bible doesn't address these problems but it speaks of these sins so we also should see these problems as sins". Anyone with a little bit of sense would realize that nobody chooses to stuff their face and then find a way to try to get rid of what they just stuffed their face with. Placing a collection of "sin" labels on the behavior is not going to help solve the problem because eating disorders are a symptom of underlying problems. Yes, they are undesirable behaviors in themselves, but they are a cry for help. I also wonder how many elders are guilty of the same sins.... I remember wishing that I could just be anorexic for a while. I would starve myself but eventuall I would always succumb and go on a binge cycle. I always felt ashamed because I felt like I could not be filled with the Spirit while I exercised so little self-control around food. But that very appearance of higher spirituality which can be linked to anorexia is very dangerous. I can imagine girls being encouraged to continue their uber self-controlled eating and super strict, systematic lifestyles which often accompany anorexia, because it looks like the image of self-control, until it spirals out of control. Probably the worst problem with the fundie approach is the denial that there can be a real problem hiding underneath the "sins". If you read the Q&A page I linked to in my above post, you will see how every question is answered with having to deal with x y or z sins. There is little inquiry in what may be causing a person to act in a certain way, the emphasis is placed on the sinfulness of the actions, which will only lead people who can't overcome these into hiding, shame, and even suicide. Sierra, I await your 2nd installement with as much patience as I possess....(which is not much, btw!)
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em
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Post by em on Aug 23, 2010 11:42:03 GMT -5
I think it absolutely makes sense. Anorexia is usually about control. Denying yourself food is a way to gain some control over your life ... and if you have absolutely no control whatsoever over anything that ever happens to you (or ever will happen to you, cuz once you grow up then it's just going to be your husband calling the shots not your dad), I can totally see that being a huge trigger for an eating disorder. If you have no power at all over anything in your life, no ability to make any choices at all for yourself, yeah I can see how not eating to gain some power would be something to consider. Like Sierra said, throw in not being able to wear cute clothes or makeup, making being thin the only way you have to make yourself feel attractive (which is important since you have to show everybody else how awesome it is to have your religion) and yeah. Makes total sense to me.
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Post by kisekileia on Aug 23, 2010 22:15:48 GMT -5
You'd think that, but some people absolutely can't understand the idea of some behaviour being involuntary. They just can't process it, whether because they don't want to believe that free will can be limited in such a way or because that takes away their opportunity to be self-righteous towards those who behave "badly". Unfortunately, my mother is such a person, which is a major problem given that I have severe ADHD and the resulting procrastination often inconveniences her.
Another obstacle in my family's understanding my ADHD is the evangelical Christian belief that a verse in one of the Corinthians books (forget which), implies that nobody will ever be given temptation they cannot resist. My sister (who's in medical school!) believes, probably because of this, that everyone has some potential to make right choices, no matter how ill or addicted. My family are mainstream evangelicals--nothing close to QF. So I suspect that that interpretation of that particular verse is a problem for understanding of mental illness even in moderate evangelical settings.
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Post by kisekileia on Aug 23, 2010 22:18:10 GMT -5
Also, those who are interested in the link between extremist, perfectionistic religion may want to research "fasting girls" from the Middle Ages--devout Catholic women who stated that God satisfied their need for food and they did not need to eat, as a devotional/self-punishing practice. Catherine of Siena was one.
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Post by madame on Aug 24, 2010 14:57:05 GMT -5
As far as I could tell, eating disorders were absolutely rampant in that school, most visible in girls from the more extreme churches represented in the community. Any teacher or other adult who tried to address it (and I did numerous times) with parents, administrators or counselors were told there was not a problem. One principal told me that "our girls are just naturally thin and beautiful. It's the glow of knowing Jesus". I left there ten years ago. Since then, I have met up with former students who have told me they and/or their classmates had the glow of bulimia, not Jesus. Amyrose, you could be on to something. Eating disorders are often linked to perfectionism and self-denial in other aspects. If girls are always told that they must live up to a very high standard and they always feel guilty of not living up to it, they could easily be projecting this anxiety in the form of an ED. I think that which ED they develop also depends on their personality. My sister went through a year or so when she felt very low about herself and was putting herself under much pressure. She is the quieter, more disciplined one of the two of us. She gradually ate less and less. I, the noisier, more talkative and less organized one developed bulimia. I wished so badly I could just stop eating, but I kept eating and eating, mostly in secret, feeling like a failure and vomiting or using laxatives. I don't know what role religious pressure played in the onset of our EDs. I know it played a huge role in my keeping bulimia a secret and feeling much shame about the way I ate. Christianity, especially fundamentalist branches, place a huge emphasis on sin and on self-control. Eating too much is sin. It's lack of self-control. On a different note, maybe it was better that those girls found the way out of their illness outside of such an environment. If they had brought in a counselor, she may have just focused on the sinfulness of the girls actions, placing even more shame on them, and driving them even deeper into despair about themselves. The sort of counseling you find in this audio series from "Revive our Hearts" www.reviveourhearts.com/topics/series.php?series=108&topic_name=General%20Christian%20Living
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Post by Sierra on Aug 24, 2010 15:33:12 GMT -5
I think you are on to something about the manifestations of eating disorders in different personalities. I was a quiet girl, but I have always been the squeaky wheel when there is a problem. If the other girls in my church appeared "naturally" thin by unnatural means, they were praised because they drew no attention to the means by which they attained their weights. I, on the other hand, made it clear that something was wrong. I was open about my refusal to share meals. Everyone knew I was trying to lose weight. I can see how bulimia would receive even worse treatment because somehow "gluttony" is factored in. It surprises me that people actually take gluttony seriously as a sin.
I am utterly sickened by the Revive Our Hearts link you posted. I knew I hated Nancy Leigh DeMoss, but I'd never realized what poison she was peddling before. Her "advice" is abominable.
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Post by madame on Aug 24, 2010 16:49:04 GMT -5
Sierra, Maybe one reason you were so "squeaky" was because you were rebelling against becoming a woman and what that meant. Maybe some of the other girls were suffering anorexia, but for very different reasons that didn't include the need to scream against what was expected of them. Maybe your refusal of food should have been interpreted as a refusal to become what they said you ought to be. Anyone who could understand what you were trying to say would want to find out what is causing you such fear, and examine what was being taugth to you, but sadly, if they understood that, they probably came down on you like a ton of bricks.
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Post by km on Aug 24, 2010 17:05:28 GMT -5
And the other thing was this oft-stated notion that Christian girls are always more beautiful than non-Christian girls. I have encountered that in less suppressive Evangelical groups. Really? Really??? People say this often? Wow... I mean, I expect there's often a subtext of "white Anglo-Saxon girls are always more beautiful than non-white girls" when people say this. I'm sort of shocked that people actually say this...
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Post by km on Aug 24, 2010 17:06:48 GMT -5
Martha Peace's "kind reply" to a young woman who is suffering bulimia: Q: I have a "secret" sin that no one knows about. I control my weight by making myself throw up after I eat. I feel really foolish and embarrassed and don't want anyone to know. What do you think? A: Making yourself throw up after you eat is what medical doctors call bulimia. Bulimia is wrong for two reasons: First, it can cause serious medical problems such as damage to your esophagus and your teeth. Second, it is a sin because overeating is gluttony, throwing up is a lack of self-control, and wanting to be thin so badly that you are willing to sin is idolatry. It is likely that you feel guilty and embarrassed about this, but, since God "gives grace to the humble," I strongly suggest that you get help from the elders in your church. They, likely, will send you to a medical doctor for an examination and also will assign a godly, older woman in the church to disciple you and hold you accountable. Sinful eating patterns tend to be habitual and the change must not only be outward but also in your heart by what you think. God wants us to be grateful for the food we have and not to abuse our bodies. He also does not want us to eat in a gluttonous manner but by His grace to put on self-control.
Reading this made me want to throw something at her and hug the poor girl. I sure hope that the "medical doctor" the elders send her to is caring enough to get her some proper counseling. There is nothing worse you can do to someone who already lives in shame, wishing she had enough self-control to stop eating the way she does, who daily makes new promises that she will stop her sinful behavior, who lies in bed every night fearing she may just not be saved, than to offer such "counseling". And send her to a room full of men to talk about her most shameful secret? There are no words for that advice.... marthapeace.com/qa/questions.html That's the kind of thing that gives "pastoral counseling" a bad name.
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Post by amyrose on Aug 24, 2010 20:41:02 GMT -5
And the other thing was this oft-stated notion that Christian girls are always more beautiful than non-Christian girls. I have encountered that in less suppressive Evangelical groups. Really? Really??? People say this often? Wow... I mean, I expect there's often a subtext of "white Anglo-Saxon girls are always more beautiful than non-white girls" when people say this. I'm sort of shocked that people actually say this... Oh that was a common one. That loving Jesus makes you beautiful. And not only are Christian girls prettier; Christian marriages are happier; Christian children are better behaved; Christians are smarter; Christians are happier in general; Christian athletes are better athletes (and the only ones you should root for); Christians have more fun, and on and on and on in this vain. And because of all of these things, all non-Christians (which means all non-Evangelicals including mainline Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox and most Lutherans) wish that they had the mysterious thing that Christians have that makes them so visibly superior (which is of course Jesus). Therefore, you must witness to them because they are looking at your perfect happy life and wishing to be like you--they just need told how to do it. As I am sure you can conclude, all of this leads to an immense pressure to appear, if not be, perfect at all times in all ways.
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Post by km on Aug 25, 2010 16:50:52 GMT -5
Really? Really??? People say this often? Wow... I mean, I expect there's often a subtext of "white Anglo-Saxon girls are always more beautiful than non-white girls" when people say this. I'm sort of shocked that people actually say this... Oh that was a common one. That loving Jesus makes you beautiful. And not only are Christian girls prettier; Christian marriages are happier; Christian children are better behaved; Christians are smarter; Christians are happier in general; Christian athletes are better athletes (and the only ones you should root for); Christians have more fun, and on and on and on in this vain. And because of all of these things, all non-Christians (which means all non-Evangelicals including mainline Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox and most Lutherans) wish that they had the mysterious thing that Christians have that makes them so visibly superior (which is of course Jesus). Therefore, you must witness to them because they are looking at your perfect happy life and wishing to be like you--they just need told how to do it. As I am sure you can conclude, all of this leads to an immense pressure to appear, if not be, perfect at all times in all ways. Hmm... Very interesting. There are, of course, Catholic evangelicals, as I'm sure you know. Erik Prince, founder of the Corporation Formerly Known as Blackwater and Dominionist leader, converted to Catholicism as an adult. Not that all Catholic evangelicals are like him, of course, but he's one very high profile name.
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Post by amyrose on Aug 25, 2010 18:10:20 GMT -5
But "born again" and all of that is not part of the theology of Catholicism. And the priests I know are quick to tell you that no one is perfect or can keep up the appearance of perfectionism or should bother trying.
We do suddenly have a family in our parish, though, that sits in the front row at mass with their five kids. The girls all wear loose jumpers with loose t-shirts under them and they and the mother all have long unstyled hair and no make-up on the mom or the older girls. And they are very proper and the kids look askance at the rest of us as we walk by them after going to communion in shorts or skirts that or too short or flip flops or jeans....
I'm seriously wondering if they aren't converts, too.
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