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Post by madame on Aug 26, 2010 3:08:07 GMT -5
Yes, it is definitely the mentality. QF women are taught that they have no rights and they talk a lot about giving up their entitlement mentality. I remember reading on one blog how a woman said that what finally put her on her weight loss track was freeing herself from her entitlement mentality. When she stopped thinking she deserved the food, she stopped eating the way that had made her fat.
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Post by cindy on Aug 26, 2010 13:55:41 GMT -5
Shelly,
What a great depiction of the prototypical discussion among women in churches. The last Aglow meeting I went to sounded too much like this.
A few months ago, I overheard a few men bragging about the number of kids they have, something that sounded more like a discussion among pubescent boys who were concerned about their manhood. I'm not sure what followed after the numbers of kids they mentioned, though I'd hoped in my gut that they started talking about something like lawnmowers.
We are so predictable.
(I look forward to the next installment of your saga on NLQ, too. You ended it with a great cliff hanger, with that phone number staring up at you from the yellow post-it that had enough staying power to remain on the fridge all night.)
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Post by ShellyC on Aug 27, 2010 8:28:30 GMT -5
Shelly, What a great depiction of the prototypical discussion among women in churches. The last Aglow meeting I went to sounded too much like this. A few months ago, I overheard a few men bragging about the number of kids they have, something that sounded more like a discussion among pubescent boys who were concerned about their manhood. I'm not sure what followed after the numbers of kids they mentioned, though I'd hoped in my gut that they started talking about something like lawnmowers. We are so predictable. (I look forward to the next installment of your saga on NLQ, too. You ended it with a great cliff hanger, with that phone number staring up at you from the yellow post-it that had enough staying power to remain on the fridge all night.) Yes, I know what you mean. I hate that it is this way...I am not sure how to nip it in the bud, except to maybe just keep saying.. That's nice!, Good for you!!!
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 22:26:20 GMT -5
Yes, it is definitely the mentality. QF women are taught that they have no rights and they talk a lot about giving up their entitlement mentality. I remember reading on one blog how a woman said that what finally put her on her weight loss track was freeing herself from her entitlement mentality. When she stopped thinking she deserved the food, she stopped eating the way that had made her fat. See, I don't like entitlement much, but this would not be how I think about entitlement.... Entitlement has more to do with being born with a silver spoon in your mouth, I think.... And extreme privilege. Eating isn't entitlement. It's necessary for survival.
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Post by arietty on Aug 28, 2010 0:10:33 GMT -5
By entitlement the QF mom means putting yourself first in any way. Having desires that don't immediately benefit the family. When a mom says "I really need a night out from the kids" that is entitlement.
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Post by coleslaw on Aug 28, 2010 7:42:30 GMT -5
I dunno. I think the automatic "I deserve this" response to every impulse to consume, be it food or by purchasing something, is entitlement, and examining that statement could very well be the first step to losing weight or becoming debt free or just being a more intentional person in general. Somewhere between thinking I deserve every cookie I've ever consumed and thinking that I shouldn't eat at all until every hungry person on earth has a peanut butter sandwich, there is a large middle ground. There's nothing wrong with saying "I'm going to eat the ice cream because I want to", as long as the ice cream isn't being paid for via the baby's formula money. There's also nothing wrong with thinking "I also want to see my waistline again, maybe ice cream is a bad idea." Thinking in terms of what you want rather than what you deserve takes the decision out of the realm of crime and punishment and into the realm of being responsible for your choices, so yeah, I see what the diet lady meant about entitlement.
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Post by madame on Aug 28, 2010 9:16:06 GMT -5
I dunno. I think the automatic "I deserve this" response to every impulse to consume, be it food or by purchasing something, is entitlement, and examining that statement could very well be the first step to losing weight or becoming debt free or just being a more intentional person in general. Somewhere between thinking I deserve every cookie I've ever consumed and thinking that I shouldn't eat at all until every hungry person on earth has a peanut butter sandwich, there is a large middle ground. There's nothing wrong with saying "I'm going to eat the ice cream because I want to", as long as the ice cream isn't being paid for via the baby's formula money. There's also nothing wrong with thinking "I also want to see my waistline again, maybe ice cream is a bad idea." Thinking in terms of what you want rather than what you deserve takes the decision out of the realm of crime and punishment and into the realm of being responsible for your choices, so yeah, I see what the diet lady meant about entitlement. The thing is, QF women are taught that their desires, or the things they want, are generally "sinful" unless they line up with what their husbands want or what the Bible says. They are not exactly free to decide what they will do for themselves. Also, most people who do things compulsively are doing so for a reason. Continuing to eat or shop compulsively will keep the reason covered, but stopping it will uncover the reason, and some people just can't deal with the issue that is driving them to seek comfort or release in food or whatever, so I don't think that appealing to the entitlement mentality is going to work in every case. Imagine this QF mother is using food to soothe the anxiety she is feeling knowing she is expecting number 9, her feelings of inadequacy, her frustration with her children and her hurt at having her "head" just make a decision completely against her wishes? Would telling her "you don't deserve those cookies" not mean more than just that to her, in her circumstances? QF women are generally strict with themselves. They have rules for themselves (see Candy's blog keeping home or something like that), they have the JOY principle drilled into them from an early age. They are rarely asked what they want, and I doubt they will be encouraged to seek comfort from anyone but God, whom they probably see more as their judge, the man up there with the big long stick waiting to whack them, than a loving father who loves them and understands their weakness and fears. Chocolate tastes far better than loneliness feels. Biscuits and a cup of tea beat anxiety hands down. Overeating is not often about greed. chocfairies.blogspot.com/2010/06/this-weeks-tweat_16.html
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 28, 2010 9:53:59 GMT -5
This discussion is very helpful to me. I have nothing to add, but thanks to all posting and to Vyckie for setting up this forum.
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2010 14:15:56 GMT -5
The shame-existence bind describes the inevitable tension between the needs one has by virtue of existing, but simultaneously believing and thus feeling that we as caretakers of others should have no needs, or needs that are not a priority.
In patriarchy, women are all told that they have been created to be of service to men. I've been ranting since I read the quote in Joyce's book that Nancy Campbell says that of all the things created by God, a human woman is the only thing that "can never be a new creation" because her substance was taken from man. Philosophically, this is rife with problems, not to mention theological ones. But essentially, this assumes that women are subordinate and of lesser stuff than men in essence/substance and in purpose.
Even a Christian who rejects the bulk of these ideas as the ultimate definition and purpose of a woman can struggle with needs -- as the Christian has a paradoxical purpose. If you take the Westminster Confession, the chief end of man is to glorify God, but then it can seem paradoxical if you frame it out that way that man is also to enjoy God. Part of that enjoyment involves the satisfaction of wants and needs, something the Bible also says that God delights to do. But some people and religious systems define those two ends as mutually exclusive (though most would deny it if you directly asked, as what they profess and what they actually live are vastly different).
I can also see the shame-existence bind at work in other types of religions. I recently heard someone pleading for people to get involved in protecting the environment because we all have to earn our keep on the planet by giving back to humanity. As part of the general principle of the Golden Rule, this is fine, but this can get out of balance, too. We can use service to appease our guilt (though there are certainly less healthy ways of dealing with guilt like substance abuse, for example). But it is a simple fact that just for existing, we will have basic needs along with wants and desires. Part of maturity and personal growth involves balance between what is a need versus a want, and how do we balance those two things against our available resources. That also takes maturity, particularly when our resources do not provide enough for our needs.
Part of getting out of patriocentric and QF thinking involves understanding that we have to care for our needs, seeing them as just as important as the needs of others. With kids, it is different and more complicated, because parents have a duty to provide for their children. (Actually shame-existence binds often come about because we learned that our role involved serving our own parents and nourishing them in some inappropriate way instead of them providing *appropriately* for us.) I'd learned through my parents' shame grid, sometimes reluctant parenting, and my mother's jealousy (due to her own pathology). I wrongly understood that Paul's Epistle that states "let each esteem the other better than himself" meant that my needs were always insignificant, and the pressing ones were sinful self-interest.
I worked with these very beliefs in EMDR which built upon many years of correcting my thinking of this type (what a Christian calls bringing every thought captive to Scripture and what psychology calls cognitive behavioral therapy). Honoring my own needs and the guilt I had for having needs and needing care was no easy thing to overcome and took years for me. I hope that by my involvement in discussions like these that others will be able to learn from my experience and can avoid some of these things.
In terms of how I make sense of things and my belief system (yours may be different), I believe that God gives us needs. He wants us to provide for those needs and care for ourselves so that we can not only be prepared and strong for helping others (an expression of our love for Him), to understand something of how He loves us (sometimes through the help of others), but also to learn about how to be both satisfied and needy in order to make us more mature and empathetic (wise). Part of it, for the Christian, involves honoring yourself through self care which honors the Image of God in yourself. I didn't get to that place easily, and I don't know how well I stay there, sometimes.
The apostle Paul wrote that we are not wise to compare ourselves, and I like to think that we are all here on earth to become the best self that we can be. We are so different that we end up having different problems and weak areas. If I seem to be blessed and worthy of envy in one area, one need not look to far to see the disaster area in another area of my life. I wouldn't want to trade my lot in for someone else's, and the comparisons don't ever seem to be productive or helpful. I think like health, money is tough, too. Or you could be like my household where out of pocket health costs exceed what is spent on housing and food combined! So I don't think it's too extravagant to buy a pricey purse with money my mom gave me for the purpose when it ends up being cheaper than a $10 a year expense annually! I'm also satisfied that I've been more than kind and generous with others when I lay my head on my pillow at the end of the day.
For what it's worth, if you are struggling to make ends meet, we've had our lean years and are not as fat as we used to be. We rent an apartment because after a move (for survival on many levels), our moving and medical expenses cleaned us out. We also financed a car, too. My house fund has been dropping instead of gaining, but I am happy that our needs are met. I've got a disabled car and am sharing just my husband's so that we have money for other more pressing needs, some of which are not even our own. Everyone's plate looks different, and how we set priorities is different also. But each person's balance will look different. Part of getting away from patriarchy involves being okay with how different different looks.
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2010 14:42:56 GMT -5
I dunno. I think the automatic "I deserve this" response to every impulse to consume, be it food or by purchasing something, is entitlement, and examining that statement could very well be the first step to losing weight or becoming debt free or just being a more intentional person in general. Somewhere between thinking I deserve every cookie I've ever consumed and thinking that I shouldn't eat at all until every hungry person on earth has a peanut butter sandwich, there is a large middle ground. There's nothing wrong with saying "I'm going to eat the ice cream because I want to", as long as the ice cream isn't being paid for via the baby's formula money. There's also nothing wrong with thinking "I also want to see my waistline again, maybe ice cream is a bad idea." Thinking in terms of what you want rather than what you deserve takes the decision out of the realm of crime and punishment and into the realm of being responsible for your choices, so yeah, I see what the diet lady meant about entitlement. The thing is, QF women are taught that their desires, or the things they want, are generally "sinful" unless they line up with what their husbands want or what the Bible says. They are not exactly free to decide what they will do for themselves. Also, most people who do things compulsively are doing so for a reason. Continuing to eat or shop compulsively will keep the reason covered, but stopping it will uncover the reason, and some people just can't deal with the issue that is driving them to seek comfort or release in food or whatever, so I don't think that appealing to the entitlement mentality is going to work in every case. Imagine this QF mother is using food to soothe the anxiety she is feeling knowing she is expecting number 9, her feelings of inadequacy, her frustration with her children and her hurt at having her "head" just make a decision completely against her wishes? Would telling her "you don't deserve those cookies" not mean more than just that to her, in her circumstances? QF women are generally strict with themselves. They have rules for themselves (see Candy's blog keeping home or something like that), they have the JOY principle drilled into them from an early age. They are rarely asked what they want, and I doubt they will be encouraged to seek comfort from anyone but God, whom they probably see more as their judge, the man up there with the big long stick waiting to whack them, than a loving father who loves them and understands their weakness and fears. Chocolate tastes far better than loneliness feels. Biscuits and a cup of tea beat anxiety hands down. Overeating is not often about greed. chocfairies.blogspot.com/2010/06/this-weeks-tweat_16.htmlHi Madame! I haven't seen your name around and about in awhile. Good to "see you." (This is a general response, not addressed to anyone in particular.) Behavior is a complex thing, even when we fall into predictable patterns, and it often doesn't make logical sense. Money, sex, and some other things tend to be like this. I recently did some training on somatoform disorders, illness or fear of illness that arises because of psychological stress. On a level of logic, these people should just realize that they can stop their way of coping through illness, stop doing what looks like malingering, and just deal with the problem, right? But the truth is that the person doesn't have the internal stuff to make this happen. Though the whole thing doesn't seem logical, asking them to do this kind of thing is rather like asking a lame person to walk perfectly without a crutch or a limp. What these people need more than anything is love and support, a safe place where they can sort through their fears and disappointments, even though their symptoms might seem kind of silly in a way. It is from that place of compassion and tolerance that their healing really begins, giving them the stability and strength to lean on to find that dormant strength in themselves. With some of this entitlement stuff, these have been the way that people have coped with tremendous pressure, and to some extent, they learned that this worked. For a time, anyway, it is kind and compassionate to give the mom the cookies, because this might be all she has. Food is actually an excellent example and a common focus of entitlement. Food might be a beaten down woman's only source of comfort. We don't know what she's been through and how she might have been beat up in every other area. The heart has its reasons that reason knows not (so Pascal once said). So some of these behavior things (particularly basic needs that effect behavior like food and sex -- natural drives that involve self-control) become HUGE. In Sierra's recent post, "Daughter of the Patriarchy -- The Sickness Part II," she talks about some of this regarding not allowing "rouge food" past her lips. When all control of your life is held by someone else, the few things you have to control yourself become all that you have. In a way because the other aspects of life have become so out of balance, entitlement is a way of survival. How we all manifest that is going to be different. The big challenge for us is to recognize what a person's fulcrum is for self -- the places that they have left where they actually have some control as they work through managing shame-existence binds. Money can be a fulcrum or a focus. Some people use sex in this way, and some people can use perfection or substances or addiction. Basically, it boils down to the idea that life shouldn't hurt so much and that we have an idea that we are entitled to some degree of comfort. We are fighting to bring our needs into balance with our resources or perhaps the baggage of the lack of balance in our past. People who were deprived of material things can become hoarders or can get into debt through unmanaged spending. People who have been sexually violated may become promiscuous. People who have felt deprived in a physical way can overeat. Our emotions and our felt sense of our needs and hurts are not often logical. What I hope that I can do through avenues like the Take Heart Project involves creating a place where people who are struggling for balance and appropriate self care can heal and figure out this stuff for themselves. The stuff on the surface is just the effect, and when the cause (the shame existence bind) can be managed, the symptoms (entitlement or the opposite of it of deprivation) will abate. What people need in the meanwhile is the safe place of acceptance, compassion, empathy, encouragement, and love to heal and figure it all out.
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Post by coleslaw on Aug 29, 2010 16:14:56 GMT -5
I wouldn't tell her "you don't deserve those cookies", meaning "you deserve not to have the cookies." I might encourage her to think about why she frames the question of whether or not to eat a cookie in terms of what she deserves rather than what she wants, but I'd only do that if she was asking my advice about eating the cookie to begin with, and I don't have any cookie-eating QF friends begging for my dietary advice at present. What I do have is an opinion about a person who reportedly said "when she stopped thinking she deserved the food, she stopped eating the way that had made her fat", and my opinion is that maybe the woman does know what worked for her.
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Post by mickee on Aug 30, 2010 8:51:02 GMT -5
When you said referring to your children, "I just want them each to be the person that God has created each of them to be. I do not want to have robotic children, who have exquisite manners, but no personalities of their own", I thought, what a great mother. Even mothers who aren't a part of the Quiverfull movement need to know this, but it seems all too often mothers try to make their children into cookie cutter versions of themselves without ever recognizing their children's God designed uniqueness. God bless you and your family!
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Post by journey on Aug 31, 2010 15:28:46 GMT -5
I had to chime in on the expensive coat thing, because I, too, learned somehow that being a godly QF-type mom meant that you looked plain and didn't spend money on yourself... I never wore jewelry other than my wedding ring, and there's no way I would have bought myself a nice coat! In fact, I didn't buy myself a coat at all, but wore a really ugly one that my mil gave me for Christmas, because, hey, it was functional and didn't cost me anything. My husband spent waaaaaay more on grooming and clothes and stuff than I ever did (but, of course, that was godly, because he worked outside the home and had to keep up appearances, right)? As I began to wake up, though still in my marriage, I remembered that I had pierced ears and started wearing earrings. A friend practically commanded me to buy a really cute winter coat (which I died over, but did it, and LOVE that dang coat---nothing like wearing something that just plain makes you look good, you know?)... When I separated from my husband, I decided I would buy one thing a month, whether earrings or a necklace--just something to start catching up from all those years of buying nothing. It was really hard to do at first, but eventually became really fun, and I started losing that sick-to-my-stomach feeling I used to get when I bought myself something. I also started really paying attention to my clothing, getting clothes here and there that were not androgynous, clothes that showed my body instead of hid it, etc... It was another switch that I really had to force myself to make, but eventually became fun and pleasing! I like who I am, and it's so fun not to be hiding myself anymore. One example of this "can't buy myself anything" was when I bought my laptop, a much needed item for my work and studies. I had recently been separated....and I was SICK about it. Just sick. I couldn't believe I just spent that much money on myself. In fact, it took me a couple months after buying it to actually start USING it! That's how bad I was! Whereas, this summer my cell phone finally died and I bought a really nice one. Didn't even blink an eye. Didn't feel like throwing up. Didn't feel like I was a terrible horrible evil person. Starting playing with my new phone the minute I got it. Haven't felt guilty about it yet. lol... The thing about QF motherhood is that you are signing up to be a living martyr. And living martyrs don't get to make life comfortable for them, don't get to do nice things for themselves... No, you are living to serve others, others, others. You learn to put yourself last, very last. Even your need for some quiet time by yourself is taught as a selfish need, a fleshly lust, something that you should work to eradicate. If you do something nice for yourself, you are taught to be suspect. And once you have women in that kind of mindset, you can pretty much guarantee that they're going to have a really hard time ever managing to question QF/patriarchal theology at all. How can they? They feel sinful if they wish they could have some time all alone, for goodness sake! Of course they're not going to risk their souls by questioning theology! Such a powerful cultic brainwashing system, the patriarchal camp has cooked up.
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Post by arietty on Sept 3, 2010 21:01:55 GMT -5
I can't get over how much I used to agonize over every purchase.. I used to stand in the supermarket and work out how much per gram each brand actually cost. I remember doing the mental arithmetic over toilet paper, this was cheaper but it had less sheets.. so how many sheets did you actually get per dollar with each brand. In the back of my mind I was always fearful about getting in trouble for spending, even though my ex was fairly oblivious and spent whatever he liked on himself. He ate out for lunch every single day at work and would come home telling me about expensive restaurants he ate at with his work colleagues, and yet I would spend huge amounts of time choosing in a supermarket how to spend no more than 5.00 on me and 6 kids for lunch if we ended up out too long and I had failed to pack sandwiches.
I remember I used to pay things off very slowly.. I bought a set of the Chronicles of Narnia and it took me TWO YEARS to pay it off.. I would just go in and put on 1.00 at a time on the set, every few months. Totally ridiculous. Now I would just buy it, or anything else that is not a luxury without thinking. But in those days everything relating to me or the kids, even our food, was a luxury that had to be agonized over.
It was quite bizarre to realize that as a single mom with literally 1/3 the income of my married life we lived SO much better and enjoyed our food and entertainments.
The frugality culture of QF was kind of a hobby for me (since I couldn't have other hobbies, lol) and I know that was the case with a lot of people. I knew many women who went to great lengths to be frugal while their husbands bought themselves nice clothes, a new computer, sporting equipment. There you are making your own sanitary pads out of cloth and rejoicing over this fabulous savings and your husband is spending thousands of dollars on some whizzbang laptop because he needs it to take notes on in church. Yes true story. There is a lot of weird stuff around frugality that has nothing to do with actual poverty.
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Post by madame on Sept 4, 2010 12:25:48 GMT -5
I wouldn't tell her "you don't deserve those cookies", meaning "you deserve not to have the cookies." I might encourage her to think about why she frames the question of whether or not to eat a cookie in terms of what she deserves rather than what she wants, but I'd only do that if she was asking my advice about eating the cookie to begin with, and I don't have any cookie-eating QF friends begging for my dietary advice at present. What I do have is an opinion about a person who reportedly said "when she stopped thinking she deserved the food, she stopped eating the way that had made her fat", and my opinion is that maybe the woman does know what worked for her. Coleslaw, It has worked for her, obviously, and she writes all about it. But the point I was trying to get to was that QF moms are taught that they don't deserve anything. They don't have rights. They are to be servants, happy for whatever little they get, and ever giving, giving giving. "me time" is just plain selfish, and wanting anything is a sign of lack of gratitude. So. I gave you the example of a QF mom who can't speak up to her husband regarding a decision; who is forever pregnant or recovering from pregnancy and nursing a very little one; who is homeschooling a larger-than-average brood, finding some "comfort" in the only thing that is ok for her to have: food. Now she is feeling fat and her husband is confirming her feelings, so she wants to lose weight. She gets told that she must deny herself a little bit more. Basically, she gets told that she is not worth anything. She doesn't deserve anything. How long till she beats herself up for crying over her life circumstances? Experts in helping people overcome emotional eating stress the importance of finding the reason why people eat that way, and helping them find other ways to live with their emotions. This doesn't include beating themselves up for having an "attitude of entitlement".
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Post by coleslaw on Sept 4, 2010 13:13:42 GMT -5
I wouldn't tell her "you don't deserve those cookies", meaning "you deserve not to have the cookies." I might encourage her to think about why she frames the question of whether or not to eat a cookie in terms of what she deserves rather than what she wants, but I'd only do that if she was asking my advice about eating the cookie to begin with, and I don't have any cookie-eating QF friends begging for my dietary advice at present. What I do have is an opinion about a person who reportedly said "when she stopped thinking she deserved the food, she stopped eating the way that had made her fat", and my opinion is that maybe the woman does know what worked for her. Coleslaw, It has worked for her, obviously, and she writes all about it. But the point I was trying to get to was that QF moms are taught that they don't deserve anything. They don't have rights. They are to be servants, happy for whatever little they get, and ever giving, giving giving. "me time" is just plain selfish, and wanting anything is a sign of lack of gratitude. So. I gave you the example of a QF mom who can't speak up to her husband regarding a decision; who is forever pregnant or recovering from pregnancy and nursing a very little one; who is homeschooling a larger-than-average brood, finding some "comfort" in the only thing that is ok for her to have: food. Now she is feeling fat and her husband is confirming her feelings, so she wants to lose weight. She gets told that she must deny herself a little bit more. Basically, she gets told that she is not worth anything. She doesn't deserve anything. How long till she beats herself up for crying over her life circumstances? Experts in helping people overcome emotional eating stress the importance of finding the reason why people eat that way, and helping them find other ways to live with their emotions. This doesn't include beating themselves up for having an "attitude of entitlement". I commented on a real life situation, and you gave a hypothetical example that had nothing to do with what I actually said.
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