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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 27, 2010 6:37:27 GMT -5
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 27, 2010 9:42:56 GMT -5
Interesting article. Wouldn't it be great if someone would do an article on the AVERAGE QF family income to give a better picture? The Bates family has come out and admitted they live below the federal poverty level- good for them. Bad for us all that they are proud of that fact. The QF families I know well personally are up to their eyeballs in debt, something that makes them feel much shame and guilt. After all, the Duggars are doing it? Why can't they? It's very sad. For these families, finding remembering the decorative rice stored for ten years in a glass jar would be an answer to prayer! Look how God put it on mom's heart to store this rice so long ago for the need we would have in the future! So it would be nice if more were said about all the families not making it, but then those families are in no way famous- no books, CDs to promote them, and they certainly aren't going to be asked to be on an episode of the Duggars. Also the last bit about home schooling/family run businesses could be an entire article in itself. Though I don't agree with the conclusions entirely, it's an issue that deserves it's own space. Thanks for the article, Hopewell!
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Post by ShellyC on Aug 27, 2010 10:09:00 GMT -5
I had a call from a QF mother last night. Was on the phone w/her for 2 hours. They are not doing very well. She did not mention what her DH did for a living, but did say that he made UNDER $400 a week. He also has to drive 2 hours each way to work. There single wide is paid for, as well as their 3 cars. But, she said they can only afford to shop at a store called Aldi's. They do not have the net, or cable. And, the floors are rotted in the single wide, Stove & fridge don't work right, but her husband does not believe in accepting any outside help...and will never get into any dept. To me, she does not seem happy, and the kids are most definetly not happy.
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Post by hopewell on Aug 27, 2010 10:32:13 GMT -5
humbletigger: The Duggars have been very blessed/lucky with their incredible real estate deals--whether it was a good eye or dumb luck Jim-Bob made some excellent purchases. Not everyone has that "eye"--I certainly don't!!
I think DEBT is a norm for most American families--so that includes QF families--many of whom are definitely hiding a debt time-bomb.
Shelley C: I think the family you describe is way more typical than the Duggars--think of the Duggars first tv Specials. In one of them the line up of kids included one or two wearing rubber farm books as shoes! Families trying to live in deeply rural areas like mine, often to stay under CPS radar and to find affordable land, often do themselves in by having no ready market for their business. If they are so fanatical in sheltering, debt-free or [name your thing!] that they can't have internet access they then have absolutely no market and have to just do subsistence farming ala 3rd world. That is work yourself into the grave to grow, can or dry your veggies and grow, slaughter cure or freeze your own meet, raise your own eggs an milks. VERY hard work!!
Many families in extremely rural areas have no idea of the meth labs, pot growing operations, and oxy addicts, sex offenders and other "benefits" of rural life that often surround them, either!
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 27, 2010 12:19:56 GMT -5
Families trying to live in deeply rural areas like mine, Many families in extremely rural areas have no idea of the meth labs, pot growing operations, and oxy addicts, sex offenders and other "benefits" of rural life that often surround them, either! Super creepy! And so true. I spent five years of my childhood in a very small town in Oklahoma and it is, for many, a dark violent ugly place to live. Not to say that everyone there is a meth addict, dope grower, wife/child abuser- but those kind of folks live with impunity in rural areas. No cops to speak of, and if there is a cop on duty, his nearest backup is twenty-five miles away. There is a lot that just gets ignored in the country.
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Post by usotsuki on Aug 27, 2010 12:25:16 GMT -5
I had a call from a QF mother last night. Was on the phone w/her for 2 hours. They are not doing very well. She did not mention what her DH did for a living, but did say that he made UNDER $400 a week. He also has to drive 2 hours each way to work. There single wide is paid for, as well as their 3 cars. But, she said they can only afford to shop at a store called Aldi's. They do not have the net, or cable. And, the floors are rotted in the single wide, Stove & fridge don't work right, but her husband does not believe in accepting any outside help...and will never get into any dept. To me, she does not seem happy, and the kids are most definetly not happy. ALDI, I'm well familiar with them. They're probably the cheapest place to get food here in Niagara Falls. And yeesh! Maintaining a sane standard of living should be more important than f'n PRIDE...
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Post by hopewell on Aug 27, 2010 12:53:47 GMT -5
ALDI is the store the Duggars love. Personally I find Kroger's sale prices are better than ALDIs regular prices and the quality is much better. My kids won't touch the spaghetti sauce the Duggars love, nor the frozen burritos. I do buy alot of canned goods and some dairy there though when Kroger isn't on sale. The stores vary a little according to location in how much fresh produce and "luxury" items they carry--also in how much fresh meat [all recent improvements]. I find it amazing the Duggars don't buy beef on the hoof.........
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 27, 2010 12:59:15 GMT -5
"Debt-Free Duggars vs. Quiverfull Reality" ~ Story Call!Hopewell & I would like to put together a follow-up to this Debt-Free Duggar article ~ we would love to come back with quote after quote from those who have lived the QF lifestyle and have not fared nearly so well in the financial department. ShellyC ~ can we quote you? I had a call from a QF mother last night. Was on the phone w/her for 2 hours. They are not doing very well. She did not mention what her DH did for a living, but did say that he made UNDER $400 a week. He also has to drive 2 hours each way to work. There single wide is paid for, as well as their 3 cars. But, she said they can only afford to shop at a store called Aldi's. They do not have the net, or cable.
And, the floors are rotted in the single wide, Stove & fridge don't work right, but her husband does not believe in accepting any outside help...and will never get into any dept. To me, she does not seem happy, and the kids are most definetly not happy. And please ~ let's hear from other exQFers about the reality of trying to live a debt-free life while also: 1) insisting Mom must not work outside the home 2) shunning government assisitance ~ just a brief anecdote with permission to quote would be great. If you want to remain anonymous ~ send me a DM. For myself ~ even though we had a family newspaper which did fairly well for us, our conviction not to accept goverment assistance led to me nearly losing my life with my 4th pregnancy: nolongerquivering.com/2009/04/24/did-i-really-trust-him/How about the Daughters? I know many of you have said that your sub-standart homeschool education left you unprepared for college ~ anyone want to contribute counter-examples to the Quiverfull Royalty kids with regard to your ability to earn a decent living as an entrepreneur? Also ~ any examples of unpaid work to keep a family business going? I'd love to have this ready by Monday morning ~ so please post or DM your experiences right away. Thanks!!
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Post by Sierra on Aug 27, 2010 13:14:58 GMT -5
Unlike many quiverfull churches, mine allowed boys to go to college (and girls, too, grudgingly, if it could be proved that the skills college provided them would be useful for homemaking). This didn't really translate into lucrative careers in practice, though, as the boys I grew up with continued to live at home well into adulthood. The academic star of our church, a boy who got 1600 on his SATs and went on to get an MBA in accounting, ultimately chose to work three days a week and continue to live (and briefly court a girl) from his parents' basement. I believe he finally moved out when he was about 29. The parents live in a small inner-city rowhouse where they have raised their four children. The father works as a plumber and electrician.
Another boy went to college for history and planned to become a university teacher, but did so poorly in his classes that he nearly had to drop out. He felt oppressed and terrified by the world, and hardly wanted to emerge from his dorm room to interact with "worldly" people who might corrupt him, especially young women. Eventually he managed to get his BA, but he subsequently went to work for a TGI Friday's as a low-level manager. He is currently courting a girl who was unnofficially chosen for him by his mother.
My pastor's situation is a rising storm. He and his wife have seven children. All of them still live at home, including his eldest daughter, her husband, and their one-year-old child. The daughter is now pregnant again. They had moved into a little one-room house immediately after their wedding, but the husband was unable to support them both and they moved back in with the wife's parents to get back on their feet. Unfortunately, the babies are likely to continue coming every year and to place a growing burden upon the grandparents and parents alike, seriously stifling their ability to get out on their own.
I suppose the last paragraph would be most useful for what you are trying to illustrate - they have the most full "quiver" of the church I escaped from.
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Post by ShellyC on Aug 27, 2010 13:59:21 GMT -5
"Debt-Free Duggars vs. Quiverfull Reality" ~ Story Call!ShellyC ~ can we quote you? Yes, that is fine. Let me add in though. As I am against having as many children as you can, and not providing a good hearty standard of living for them, as well as attention from BOTH mom & dad..This is not a good thing to do.. I do not believe into going into dept though. But too each his own, so what! Kwim? My family has a house payment, and that is it. No credit cards, car payments etc. For us, it is a form of modern day slavery, and not a religious thing. We never quote the dept bible verses to back up our feelings about running yourself ragged, just to have the latest and greatest home, cars, or new outfits, in order to keep up with the Jones. If we can afford it, we get get it. Otherwise we save up for the big purchases..and despite the people that will roll there eyes at me.. I have prayed about specific things( big things) and had them given to me! This is not by going out there airing my dirty laundry sort of speak..just silently praying a big need, and having someone say..Hey, need some bunk beds? etc..I hope I am getting out what I mean.. To me, there comes a time when I just can not say.."Oh, that is a nice coincidence!" There are many people that are not religious, and do not believe in having dept. I do not think anyone realizes this.. Just like there are many people who want to live in a rural areas, and use some good work ethics to live off their land, or have a home business. It is just their choice! Not all of us enjoy waking up for the 9-5 jobs...Not all of us are into following the crowds..Does this make sense? I guess, it just has never sat well with me with all the stereotype that I sometimes read here. That all said, Having your kids do more then you do in the house is bluntly wrong, but teaching your kids as soon as they are old enough to not just jump on the couch all day while rattling off orders for mom to get them this or that...or sleep till noon, and give you the eyes if you ask them to start a load or wash etc...Then just cough it up to teenage rebellion, that ALL kids go through..is hilarious! What about balance? Know what I mean? Since when did teaching kids to be self dependent, have a good work ethic, and think of others first..become a bad thing? Too me, we have some how got off track and have become nothing more then crowd followers in this area... I am NOT talking about the robotic kids that you see in the QF movement, but the things like, helping their parents being portrayed as idiotic..same goes for us homeschoolers...Have we all become that warped by others and the media, that our kids should run the show? Why do so many EX-QFers think that it is sooooo wrong for kids to help out? It has become a big 180 it seems. Is it out of guilt? I suppose that would make sense of it all. I am only human. I made a mistake,Took the wrong road, but moved on, and have found a great happy medium. Everyone makes mistakes. Should we spend the rest of our days regretting, and feeling so guilty that we need to go the complete opposite now? Does that help us sleep better at night? Another stereotype that I have been reading is on the Home school subject. I would never dream of sending my kids to a Public School if I am fully capable of teaching them at home. I actually enjoy spending time with my kids!! ;D I hear other mothers complain, and complain about their bratty kids..To them--Public school is the answer because that gives them at least 8 hours to not have to deal with them at home. Throw in all the extra curricular activities after school, and maybe they can get away with only seeing them a couple hours a day at most. For these moms, I want to donate a jumbo box of condoms too!! This does not seem odd to anyone?? My decision to not put them in public school~lying,cheating,bulling, drugs, alcohol,sex, etc..that they will surely get at at any secular, OR private school if their there long enough. I keep reading.."Oh, why shelter your kids...?" My question is... Why would anyone deliberately WANT to expose their kids to these sort of things at such young ages? This baffles me. Is it because we all had to go through it..so damn well make sure our kids go through it too? All my kids know about the big bad world..They know about cheating, lying, stealing,bulling etc...They actually learned all that in Sunday School!!! ;D I can say more, but I just think there should be a more balanced reading. Sometimes it comes off as just bashing the home-schoolers, dept-free folks, and the alike. I just hate labels so much..and this is why I guess. Thanks for letting me come out of hiding and share my thoughts.
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Post by hopewell on Aug 27, 2010 14:09:13 GMT -5
To follow up on Vyckie's request: Do you know of any such families who BLOG, have a web site, have been in a local newspaper or newscast [like the Bates have been] This would be very helpful. You can email me at hopewellmomschool@yahoo.com and I will take a look at anything to help in our research. Thanks!
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Post by cindy on Aug 27, 2010 14:34:05 GMT -5
Aldi brings up an interesting point about how the QF does not the bungled, botched or imperfect.
My husband spent two weeks in NYC at Columbia Presbyterian for a headache workup when he was 8 years old. I've had migraines since puberty. I also have asthma and many chemical sensitivities, many of which I acquired when I went into depression over spiritual abuse. Basically, many things that are soothing and comforting are potent allergens for me. This is quite common in PTSD. I have done much work to correct some of these allergies though natural health and good care. I am still as debilitated as I was with symptoms, but the number of significant allergies has dropped by 2/3rds. I have fewer allergies now than I had in my 20s, but my symptoms are all more severe. My husband's headaches are daily and vary by intensity.
I am tempted to rant but will summarize by saying that there are only three items at Aldi that I can tolerate: water, their high fiber wheat bread (which I avoid because the bromine and the wheat gluten inhibit my sluggish thyroid), and a small portion bag of dried fruit which is actually not cost effective to buy compared to making my own. The last time I went into Aldi, I bought a jar of jelly that I needed and a picked up a 16 cent can of cola because I needed the caffeine. I drank two sips of the cola in the car and got sick with a migraine. Two days later, I opened the jelly and had some on a gluten free pancake I'd made. I got one of the worst food migraines I can remember having in recent years and the rescue meds did nothing. I looked on the label and there were three preservatives in it. In jelly???
Here is yet another reason why I am a pariah in these circles.
I've had Christian friends tell us that we are just exaggerating and are self-interested. I've also been criticized for spending so much on supplements and unprocessed foods, as if I did it because it was trendy. When you are sick, you have no choice but to be self-interested, particularly when you have associated symptoms like vomiting. When I've used my epi-pen and had to go to the ER because my airway and tongue were swelling closed (most recently this past New Year's Eve because of a food additive), I think self-interest is pretty appropriate.
Patriarchy only wants good stock with no defects. If you are ill affected by something, I think that many people look down on you in the way the wealthy did in the Victorian era. God decided ahead of time that you were ordained to come to earth to be sickly and among the deserving of such malady. The next extension of this idea is the concept of the deserving poor and the undeserving poor. No matter how I have tried, I always fall in at the bottom of the homeschooler patriarchy QF caste system.
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Post by cindy on Aug 27, 2010 14:43:57 GMT -5
Families trying to live in deeply rural areas like mine, Many families in extremely rural areas have no idea of the meth labs, pot growing operations, and oxy addicts, sex offenders and other "benefits" of rural life that often surround them, either! Super creepy! And so true. I spent five years of my childhood in a very small town in Oklahoma and it is, for many, a dark violent ugly place to live. Not to say that everyone there is a meth addict, dope grower, wife/child abuser- but those kind of folks live with impunity in rural areas. No cops to speak of, and if there is a cop on duty, his nearest backup is twenty-five miles away. There is a lot that just gets ignored in the country. I lived in Norman, Oklahoma for a year and a half, before meth hit it big. I loved the people there and everyone was pleasant and polite, so I guess you would not suspect that the State had such problems -- but they are rampant. My husband saw many of these deaths in the medical examiner's office there. After meth really picked up after we left the area, the toxicologists there laugh and say that they see so many decedents on meth that they wonder if it isn't a natural blood component for the Oklahoman. The same is true of the depressed areas in many states with sluggish economies. (But for some reason, people don't use much meth in our area in Michigan. Go figure. It's a heroin and cocaine area here.)
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Post by cindy on Aug 27, 2010 15:35:59 GMT -5
More on my tirade about food... I am as thrifty as they come, but it has been a real challenge to try to keep food costs low while still providing for our special needs. I used to use lots of canned soups and things until our symptoms essentially prevented us from being able to use these time savers. (They were more tolerable for us at one point.) I few years ago, I looked at Crystal Paine's blog. She had a list of all that she'd spent on food that week. I think she was pregnant and that he had a toddler then. I can't be sure, but she claimed to have adequately fed the family on something around $20. I don't know if they raised chickens for eggs to supplement, but she bought chicken breasts at Aldi which was their sole protein source for the week. Here is a link to a protein calculator: www.healthcalculators.org/calculators/protein.aspI figured that the chicken she bought would have provided for enough protein for the family for a day and a half. I asked a QF friend who has ten kids how on earth she feeds her family. They do have a garden, and she makes absolutely everything from scratch. She is exhausted from morning until night. She told me that most people do not feed their kids adequate protein, and the discussion opened up from there into how many infants she's seen that look dehydrated and malnourished because the babies aren't drawing enough milk through breastfeeding. Whether that's because of the inadequate diet of the mother or due to feeding difficulties I don't know. When I asked, she said she often didn't know, looking at sunken fontanels of these kids, but stopping the breast for the bottle is seen as admitting failure as the perfect mother. There is a lot of thrifty savings type of materials on these blogs, and people boast about the money they've saved. There are two things that she feels accounts for this. First is the fact that many of these families do survive off of too many carbs and that they do skimp on protein. You can tell when you go to dinner at their homes. Some people can cope on lower protein diets or can do better on a modified vegetarian diet. But put an Eskimo on such a diet. Nicholas Gonzales, MD of NYC who uses natural health to treat cancer patients says that a vegetarian diet will kill an Eskimo. People of African descent have high incidence of lactose and dairy intolerance. Some people with certain health conditions need a third more protein in their diets, particularly hyper children. The other way these ladies can boast these low grocery bills comes through failing to report their pantry expenses and trips to warehouse clubs for staple items. Some have extended families (the grandparents) who will often pay for these kinds of supplements to the food budget, and these are not reported. As a nurse, I am concerned about the way people tend to ignore these nutrition needs. I grew up in a part of the country where beans are not exactly considered staple foods. They may make the table once a week, but it is probably no more often than twice a month in the homes in my family and extended family when I was growing up. That doesn't mean that families cannot be healthier by changing their diets to include more healthy legumes which supply not only protein but also fiber. But you do have to supply a daily minimum amount of protein for good health, particularly for children. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? (I found Crystal's solutions empty for me, as I cannot buy chicken at aldi either because it is treated with a glutamine/unstable glutamate broth which induces migraines.)
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Post by cindy on Aug 27, 2010 15:44:11 GMT -5
I'm also curious about the use of the WIC program.
I love WIC, and as a nurse, I think it's one of the best if not the only well-run government subsidiary that exists for food.
One church I attended loved using WIC, and mothers would even trade to get what they needed. They essentially formed their own informal co-ops, if you will. Someone would have bread, and others would have milk. Some had kids that couldn't drink milk, but they'd trade their milk for something else among our friends. Once, my friend gave me a brick of cheese from WIC, saying that she didn't need it and couldn't use it. I went home and turned it into a gooey cheeseburger casserole with peas and corn in it, and took it right back to her house. The kids inhaled it. (It always troubled me that so many of my friends had to go to WIC to start with.)
But some of these groups look down at WIC as a government handout that is evil and I assume will make you beholden to the system if you partake of it.
Did anyone have any experience with WIC (which actually does help provide protein for pregnant women, infants and smaller children)? Any thoughts about how certain QF groups refuse WIC and call those who partake of it "Communists"?
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Post by cindy on Aug 27, 2010 15:47:34 GMT -5
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Post by cindy on Aug 27, 2010 15:55:52 GMT -5
If anyone wants to write a post on the QF diet and these problems, I have a ton of concerns and a whole lot more to say about fatty acids, fat peroxidation, and things like this that affect life-long health. There are cheaper ways of doing protein that have healthy fatty acids in them...
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Post by cindy on Aug 27, 2010 16:03:49 GMT -5
Hopewell,
Didn't I read a reference over on YUKU about that Bates fellow actually giving a lecture at an ATIA meeting on how to live on the cheap?
Essentially, people are supposed to donate everything for you to build a house, and if you just wait, someone will feel guilty and sorry for your kids and give you what you need, if I recall correctly. And much of the things they were given actually came from the Duggars, like their very large dinner table, and a dump truck or something?
I am on such another planet, because though you can be blessed by gifts and help (like my girlfriend's cheese!), I was taught to do right by people to bless them for the work that you do, showing them honor. I am just grateful that , thus far, we've been able to have means to meet our needs, having money to pay for what we need. I'm blessed that we can make it by not shopping at Aldi, something that is a cause to be thankful, not a cause to berate other people. My parents and their parents would think it was a scandal to beg for things like this, feeling entitled to have other people provide. (My grandfather had wood floors in his house because he rescued the boards from an old basketball court when a school was torn down, something he paid for.)
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Post by fabucat on Aug 27, 2010 16:27:17 GMT -5
Aldi brings up an interesting point about how the QF does not the bungled, botched or imperfect. My husband spent two weeks in NYC at Columbia Presbyterian for a headache workup when he was 8 years old. I've had migraines since puberty. I also have asthma and many chemical sensitivities, many of which I acquired when I went into depression over spiritual abuse. Basically, many things that are soothing and comforting are potent allergens for me. This is quite common in PTSD. I have done much work to correct some of these allergies though natural health and good care. I am still as debilitated as I was with symptoms, but the number of significant allergies has dropped by 2/3rds. I have fewer allergies now than I had in my 20s, but my symptoms are all more severe. My husband's headaches are daily and vary by intensity. I am tempted to rant but will summarize by saying that there are only three items at Aldi that I can tolerate: water, their high fiber wheat bread (which I avoid because the bromine and the wheat gluten inhibit my sluggish thyroid), and a small portion bag of dried fruit which is actually not cost effective to buy compared to making my own. The last time I went into Aldi, I bought a jar of jelly that I needed and a picked up a 16 cent can of cola because I needed the caffeine. I drank two sips of the cola in the car and got sick with a migraine. Two days later, I opened the jelly and had some on a gluten free pancake I'd made. I got one of the worst food migraines I can remember having in recent years and the rescue meds did nothing. I looked on the label and there were three preservatives in it. In jelly??? Here is yet another reason why I am a pariah in these circles. I've had Christian friends tell us that we are just exaggerating and are self-interested. I've also been criticized for spending so much on supplements and unprocessed foods, as if I did it because it was trendy. When you are sick, you have no choice but to be self-interested, particularly when you have associated symptoms like vomiting. When I've used my epi-pen and had to go to the ER because my airway and tongue were swelling closed (most recently this past New Year's Eve because of a food additive), I think self-interest is pretty appropriate. Patriarchy only wants good stock with no defects. If you are ill affected by something, I think that many people look down on you in the way the wealthy did in the Victorian era. God decided ahead of time that you were ordained to come to earth to be sickly and among the deserving of such malady. The next extension of this idea is the concept of the deserving poor and the undeserving poor. No matter how I have tried, I always fall in at the bottom of the homeschooler patriarchy QF caste system. That's sad that many QF families don't accept people with allergies or handicaps. I'm gluten intolerant, so I have to buy special products. But what I suffered while eating glutens is nothing compared to migraines! As far as the debt-free philosophy, I've got to respect that. I wonder how many QF families have gone into debt out of necessity? What if they've got a special needs child, or a child has a serious medical condition?? The most common cause of bankruptcy is a serious family medical emergency. I'm concerned that the children aren't allowed to excel in higher education. College isn't for everyone, but people without higher education tend to make less money.
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Post by fabucat on Aug 27, 2010 16:35:28 GMT -5
To follow up on Vyckie's request: Do you know of any such families who BLOG, have a web site, have been in a local newspaper or newscast [like the Bates have been] This would be very helpful. You can email me at hopewellmomschool@yahoo.com and I will take a look at anything to help in our research. Thanks! The top two at the moment, may be ones y'all are already familer with. They are Zusannas and Candys blogs. Zusannas husband has been on the news repeatly in the past year..Candys family..well, you'd have to read for youself. Her e-books tell of the sadness of things they have had to do without. It is very crazy. If I recall, DSS did step in once. Anyways just in case your not familiar, here they are. Candys~ myblessedhome.blogspot.com/Zusannas~http://stevenandersonfamily.blogspot.com/ Zusanna has a whole slew of QF blogs linked on her site. She is pretty well known in the community. There are other empty nesters such as Lady Lydia. Then there is the Sweeping the Cobwebs blog, which is sorta like here..but they focus mostly on discussing QF blogs and the mothers. sweepingthecobwebs.blogspot.com/I checked out the Candy's website. There's all this stuff about "femininity" etc. and then there's this picture of the mother holding a rifle. That's fine and all, but I never connected guns w/femininity:) I guess if mom hunts what's for dinner, it's not considered too macho, lol. Also, Mrs. Candy is 32 yo and "only" has 4 kids. What a slacker!!
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Post by cindy on Aug 27, 2010 16:47:07 GMT -5
I mentioned this elsewhere online. Dear friends of ours came out of our same wacko church about the same time that we did, but they did not feel comfortable entertaining the idea that their mindset was cultic.
They relocated to where we lived in Maryland, just after baby number 3, the husband a laborer who was able to find a job paying about $9/hr in the late '80s. They had no money for a home, so a wealthy friend asked her parents if they'd buy a house and rent to them for peanuts. The man was in real estate anyway, so he agreed to do it. They paid rent of $250 a month from then until 2002. During that time, they grew their family to seven, with lots of miscarriages in between.
At some point, the man who owned the property approached the family and said that he'd never thought that they would have lived there that long, and he asked for them to assume the mortgage or move on. Of course, they had good savings and had cashed in their retirement before the Y2K scare... But they decided that they should owe no man anything but love and proceeded to wait for God to provide them with the home they always wanted, for free.
They ended up living on a campground for most of the summer, then they had to divide their kids up and farm them out. The husband and wife stayed in a retirement condo with a parent until they decided that "God just wasn't in this." They looked into renting, but who will rent a home to someone with seven kids? One woman offered to take them, but she wanted a year's security deposit, and it was a place in a bad area.
They eventually settled on a home that they could manage, but they were just as miserable as they could be about it, feeling almost cheated. They had to change churches, as people in their church were quite disgusted, acting as though people were expected to give them handouts. To be honest, they were expected to do so. Frankly, I don't know how I would have reacted. We'd moved out of the area by then, and I was glad to see them get in a safe home eventually. (It was not exactly a smooth transition, and they remained "house poor" for about two years until he took another job.)
They really believed that they were exercising their faith and doing what God required of them in terms of good stewardship all along. (Were they good stewards when they were "kept" in a home on charity, too?)
I love my friends dearly, but they are COMMITTED to the whole Bill Gothard lifestyle ideal (though they can't afford ATIA). They believe that God will provide because they've been faithful to Him to oversee their family. They don't get it.
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davel
New Member
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Post by davel on Aug 27, 2010 16:58:59 GMT -5
I don't think the discussion of Jim Bob's real estate deals is complete without mentioning one of the biggest economic phenomena of the past decade: the Real Estate Bubble. Without it I'm sure a savvy investor could have made some money off real estate speculation but nowhere near the amounts he did in so short a time.
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 17:14:59 GMT -5
You know, ShellyC... Most of us can't afford not to have any debt. You are lucky that you have enough resources not to have any. And you are in the minority, even here in the so-called first world.
Have your own convictions all you want, but... That long post felt awfully shaming on my end...
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valsa
New Member
Posts: 46
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Post by valsa on Aug 27, 2010 18:12:34 GMT -5
You know, ShellyC... Most of us can't afford not to have any debt. You are lucky that you have enough resources not to have any. And you are in the minority, even here in the so-called first world. Have your own convictions all you want, but... That long post felt awfully shaming on my end... Not to mention the condescending and misguided "Oh, I don't send my children to public school because I like spending time with them". Because, obviously, no one who sends their kids to public school must like spending time with them. Of course, it took me three tries to actually finish her post because I couldn't figure out who in the world would be opposed to people "going into depar tments" (and yes, I know that's petty but it literally caused to stop reading her post twice because it drove me so nuts)
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Post by nikita on Aug 27, 2010 18:24:15 GMT -5
Shelly wrote:
Shelly. Shelly.
Can you go back and read that paragraph and not see how offensive that statement is to people who either cannot or choose not to homeschool their children? In this statement you remove the argument from the realm of 'which education is best' and catapult it into an argument about 'who loves their children more and deserves to actually have given birth to them, that obviously you don't like or want to be with your kids if you don't teach them at home'. That is a hairpin curve in logic right there.
And condoms? Really? If you don't homeschool your kids you should have just bought a box of condoms?
Please tell me that you don't really believe this. Please.
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