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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 31, 2010 8:14:11 GMT -5
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Post by stampinmama on Aug 31, 2010 10:25:53 GMT -5
Hopewell - SO well done! I'm so glad you did this article as I think people who watch the Duggars think it's all the same for all QF families when the Duggars and other QF royalty really are the minority.
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Post by burris on Aug 31, 2010 13:52:17 GMT -5
Great article! I do have one minor complaint, however: The modern crank washer is a perfectly respectable descendant of models developed in the early 1900s, before most people had electricity. A larger variation of the crank washer Emily now uses may actually be a practical alternative for families living off-grid – assuming stains are pre-treated/scrubbed and the clothes are wrung out after. It uses significantly less water and absolutely no electrical power. I don't know how Emily manages to do laundry for seven people with only a tiny crank washer, however; nor can I even guess as to why she sees it as a thrifty alternative to an electric washer. All power costs money - even arm power, which costs calories and time. A little washer for a big family is actually quite wasteful. An off-grid family the size of hers would be better off with a petal-powered machine. (Here's a great example.) Gray-water from the rinse cycle of a previous load could be used, in conjunction with more soap, to wash the next load. (Unfortunately, however, unless you have a water treatment system on-site [like this or this, the latter of which I want for my birthday!], it isn't safe to reuse wash-cycle gray-water for anything else except flushing a water-toilet - not even landscaping.)
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Post by hopewell on Aug 31, 2010 14:57:00 GMT -5
Emily considers cranking the wonder wash to be "good clean fun" [hahhah] for her poor children! I guess that's why she doesn't figure in cost. I'm afraid you may be in the minority of the general public in even knowing such a washer exists!!! You are right, though, a bigger version would be great for off-grid life.
Sadly "stampinmama," I'm sure the Duggar's lavish homes make some families miserable in their own reality in Quiverfull life. What about a family with all boys--the Mom would be worked to death!!
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Post by jemand on Aug 31, 2010 15:10:49 GMT -5
Gray-water from the rinse cycle of a previous load could be used, in conjunction with more soap, to wash the next load. (Unfortunately, however, unless you have a water treatment system on-site [like this or this, the latter of which I want for my birthday!], it isn't safe to reuse wash-cycle gray-water for anything else except flushing a water-toilet - not even landscaping.) ok... now I'm curious, why is this? because of the detergents? are there alternative detergents that would be safe for reuse on plants? (you've introduced me now to a world I'd not thought of but seems quite intriguing lol)
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 31, 2010 15:50:38 GMT -5
NLQ has the most entertaining comment section ~ esp. in the Duggars posts. If you haven't read "Helen's" defense of the Duggars and Quiverfull over on the blog, you're missing out on the wild ramblings of a psycho-troll. ٩(ï̯͡ï)۶ One nice thing about Helen ~ she's seriously increasing the NLQ page views, which increases the advertising revenue. (Not that we're getting rich ~ but when Helen comments, NLQ gets 1.30 per 1000 page views as opposed to .45 per 1000 when things settle down.) I really am thankful that we have the forum here where we can discuss these matters seriously and respectfully. Whoever it was that suggested NLQ should get a forum ~ thanks! (Sorry, I can't remember whose idea it was!) Oh ~ and a special thanks to Nikita for help with the moderating here.
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Post by stampinmama on Aug 31, 2010 17:00:25 GMT -5
NLQ has the most entertaining comment section ~ esp. in the Duggars posts. If you haven't read "Helen's" defense of the Duggars and Quiverfull over on the blog, you're missing out on the wild ramblings of a psycho-troll. ٩(ï̯͡ï)۶ One nice thing about Helen ~ she's seriously increasing the NLQ page views, which increases the advertising revenue. (Not that we're getting rich ~ but when Helen comments, NLQ gets 1.30 per 1000 page views as opposed to .45 per 1000 when things settle down.) I never read those responses because I always come over here where the sane commenters are. I didn't even know Helen existed. Wow. What a whacko! I noticed she didn't save any prayers for the rest of us but only for the Duggars. Has she commented before? I noticed you said that you get more page views when she comments.....is she linking you on another forum?
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Post by rosa on Aug 31, 2010 18:44:03 GMT -5
Jemand, the reasoning usually given for not reusing laundry greywater is that it may contain human blood or poop - there are some really low-tech systems for settling out solids & exposing them to air so they don't go into the groundwater and pathogens die, including running them out through a very slightly inclined, non-airtight tube of bricks w/a soil floor (that one is approved as a greywater system in rural parts of the UK, in the US things vary so much I don't know if it's approved anywhere here.)
Low-phosphorus detergents in general are safer for plants and bodies of water.
(greywater info from a TAP book called "Lifting the Lid, about 10 years old)
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Post by ambrosia on Aug 31, 2010 19:53:24 GMT -5
Jemand, the reasoning usually given for not reusing laundry greywater is that it may contain human blood or poop - there are some really low-tech systems for settling out solids & exposing them to air so they don't go into the groundwater and pathogens die, including running them out through a very slightly inclined, non-airtight tube of bricks w/a soil floor (that one is approved as a greywater system in rural parts of the UK, in the US things vary so much I don't know if it's approved anywhere here.) Low-phosphorus detergents in general are safer for plants and bodies of water. (greywater info from a TAP book called "Lifting the Lid, about 10 years old) I'm getting squeamish here.... As a child, I lived in a home with no plumbing and latrine waste disposal FAR from the well (this was back at The Dawn of Time, so not quite as unusual as now), and when we did build a new house with actual plumbing, rural systems were septic tank and field, with fairly regular visits from the "honey wagon", depending on the amount of rainfall/snowmelt/other ways of soaking the back 40. These are pretty standard and safe waste management procedures in areas not served by municipal systems (some of which are pretty scary anyway). Are people who are building homes "off grid" and at the level of awareness to just move up a floor in the event of flooding paying attention? Going to shower in disinfectant now, kthxbye.
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em
Full Member
Posts: 176
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Post by em on Aug 31, 2010 20:17:00 GMT -5
HUrry up there, ambrosia. I need to bathe in bleach too. Reusable pads? Ewww! Sharing cloths for wiping your ass after using the bathroom with the rest of your (large) family? I'm cringing so bad. Ohmygod. What a horrifying idea.
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Post by fabucat on Aug 31, 2010 20:33:01 GMT -5
Emily considers cranking the wonder wash to be "good clean fun" [hahhah] for her poor children! I guess that's why she doesn't figure in cost. I'm afraid you may be in the minority of the general public in even knowing such a washer exists!!! You are right, though, a bigger version would be great for off-grid life. Sadly "stampinmama," I'm sure the Duggar's lavish homes make some families miserable in their own reality in Quiverfull life. What about a family with all boys--the Mom would be worked to death!! A friend of mine had two sons who had inherited his ADHD. My friend is one of those hippie guys who experiments with alternative energy so he somehow hooked exercised bikes to a generator and got his hyperactive sons to "ride." The kids loved it! Where am I going w/this? Maybe some quiverfull boys can siphon off some of their excess energy by using a pedal-pushing washer:)
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Post by fabucat on Aug 31, 2010 20:35:43 GMT -5
HUrry up there, ambrosia. I need to bathe in bleach too. Reusable pads? Ewww! Sharing cloths for wiping your ass after using the bathroom with the rest of your (large) family? I'm cringing so bad. Ohmygod. What a horrifying idea. How about reusing toilet paper??? Have these folks ever heard of e-coli? Thank you for the fantastic article! Informative and well-written, as usual.
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Post by ambrosia on Aug 31, 2010 21:34:26 GMT -5
HUrry up there, ambrosia. I need to bathe in bleach too. Reusable pads? Ewww! Sharing cloths for wiping your ass after using the bathroom with the rest of your (large) family? I'm cringing so bad. Ohmygod. What a horrifying idea. That part of it isn't as gross as you might think. In my mother's youth, never mind my grandmother's there weren't disposable paper products for sanitary pads. One used rags and washed them. Same for toilet "tissue". There is a "clean" box and a "used" generally covered container with bleach water or other disinfectant. As with cloth diapers (same idea, same risk), the "used" ones are washed thoroughly and frequently. My squickies came from wondering if the family sanitary arrangements for dealing with the waste a large family inevitably produces are dealt with as cavalierly as the heating and air quality. ETA In a family with an endless progression of infants, the diaper pail could do double duty, but I'm just guessing there.
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Post by nikita on Aug 31, 2010 21:45:00 GMT -5
HUrry up there, ambrosia. I need to bathe in bleach too. Reusable pads? Ewww! Sharing cloths for wiping your ass after using the bathroom with the rest of your (large) family? I'm cringing so bad. Ohmygod. What a horrifying idea. That part of it isn't as gross as you might think. In my mother's time, never mind my grandmother's there weren't disposable paper products for sanitary pads. One used rags and washed them. Same for toilet "tissue". There is a "clean" box and a "used" generally covered container with bleach water or other disinfectant. As with cloth diapers (same idea, same risk), the "used" ones are washed thoroughly and frequently. My squickies came from wondering if the family sanitary arrangements for dealing with the waste a large family inevitably produces are dealt with as cavalierly as the heating and air quality. Whenever I am tempted to wax romantic about prior ages, I just reflect on plumbing and toileting issues and the nostalgia evaporates. Just. Like. That. Excellent article, Hopewell. It reminded me of my old hippie kid/early cult days. I found out quickly that living close to the earth was a very uncomfortable proposition and yurts and outhouses played better in theory than in real life. All hail indoor plumbing and electricity!
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Post by ambrosia on Aug 31, 2010 21:49:43 GMT -5
All hail indoor plumbing and electricity! I could get behind a religion like that! ;D
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Post by rosa on Aug 31, 2010 23:38:11 GMT -5
Personally, I find the washables a lot less gross than a garbage can full of disposable diapers or sanitary napkins, that typically sits for a week before trash pickup day.
And as for laundry grey water, the vast majority of homes around here, the laundry machine empties into a "laundry sink" because basements weren't built with laundry hookups the way they are in newer houses. Nobody washes these sinks. Lots of people also use them for handwashing, hair dying and washing, pet washing - and yet, we don't have outbreaks of typhus or other diseases you get from human waste or blood - because dirty laundry doesn't usually have that much of either, the water is also full of detergent, and most people don't have the diseases to pass on anyway.
Which is not at all to give Miss Emily a pass on her detergent-free soap nut kitchen diaper washing operation.
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Post by nikita on Aug 31, 2010 23:53:08 GMT -5
The Apple Farm Hotel and Restaurant near Santa Cruz California uses a laundry runoff to toilet flushing system that is pretty cool. The toilets flush with warm soapy water which is weird but I like the concept. Also, as a side note, the food is to die for. Really.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 1, 2010 13:38:04 GMT -5
NLQ has the most entertaining comment section ~ esp. in the Duggars posts. If you haven't read "Helen's" defense of the Duggars and Quiverfull over on the blog, you're missing out on the wild ramblings of a psycho-troll. ٩(ï̯͡ï)۶ One nice thing about Helen ~ she's seriously increasing the NLQ page views, which increases the advertising revenue. (Not that we're getting rich ~ but when Helen comments, NLQ gets 1.30 per 1000 page views as opposed to .45 per 1000 when things settle down.) I never read those responses because I always come over here where the sane commenters are. I didn't even know Helen existed. Wow. What a whacko!
I noticed she didn't save any prayers for the rest of us but only for the Duggars. Has she commented before?
I noticed you said that you get more page views when she comments.....is she linking you on another forum? Erika ~ so good to see you on the forums again! The reason Helen's crazy rantings increase the page views is because she posts her outrageous stuff ... and then continually refreshes her page to see if anyone has responded yet. LOL
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Post by stampinmama on Sept 1, 2010 13:53:24 GMT -5
Erika ~ so good to see you on the forums again! The reason Helen's crazy rantings increase the page views is because she posts her outrageous stuff ... and then continually refreshes her page to see if anyone has responded yet. LOL She's an ornery one, eh? Glad to be back. I took a break from a lot of stuff during some family stuff and my own spiritual redefining.
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Post by synesthesia on Sept 1, 2010 15:05:49 GMT -5
That helen chick needs to distract herself with cute seals... No one can stay vitriolic looking at such cute faces.
Also some folks on GCM use family clothes. It seems slightly... icky to me. I really love toilet paper a lot.
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Post by montanamom on Sept 1, 2010 15:26:15 GMT -5
That article described most of my lifestyle choices. And I'm certainly not quiverfull. Or even conservative. Though I have been called "crunchy" so that might be why. Personally, I don't have a problem with most of what you wrote here. And I don't think lack of electricity to be "abuse" or "neglect". Really? My husband and I both spent much of our lives living that way. His parents were hippies and mine were poor. We always had enough to eat, were warm, and could get clean. Sure, we had to go get our firewood, trade working on a farm for produce, and sometimes bath in a creek. But what in the world is wrong with that? We both loved our childhoods. And we look back on them with fond memories, even the difficult times. Reading around here, I am detecting a distaste for anyone who chooses to live how you described. Which makes me rather sad. I get that many here had to live this way due to no choice of their own and in much worse circumstances. But there are many people who choose these types of lifestyles because they want to...they see a benefit in it or perhaps can't afford what "normal" people have. I shop at thrift stores. Pretty much all the time because I can't afford to buy new clothes. Why not when I can get practically new Old Navy and Gap clothes for my kids for 50 cents? I homebirth and homeschool and cook from scratch and practice herbal medicine and am against vaccinations. I just got done baking bread from scratch using my Wonder Mill and Bosch. This has NOTHING to do with anything religious. It's just what I believe is best for my family. I'll be the first to argue with anyone who claims these things to be "more pleasing to God" or some such BS. I guess I'm just seeing alot of judgement on this forum toward people who live this type of lifestyle, regardless of motive. It would be nice for others to realize that this is just another personal choice that, at least for me, has nothing to do with anything religious.
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Post by stampinmama on Sept 1, 2010 15:35:35 GMT -5
Reading around here, I am detecting a distaste for anyone who chooses to live how you described. I guess I'm just seeing alot of judgement on this forum toward people who live this type of lifestyle, regardless of motive. It would be nice for others to realize that this is just another personal choice that, at least for me, has nothing to do with anything religious. The distaste the you see here is toward the self-righteous people that are denying basic necessities for their families, thinking it makes them more godly. And by basic necessities, I mean things like heat, clean water, basic nutrition. Sure, there are some of us that find reusable pads as gross, but if some of them use them because they are trying to cut back on costs, I don't have a problem with it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that most of us have a beef with people doing things to appear more holy or to attain holiness, the ones that do things expecting everyone else to do it, too, and judge for not doing it, the ones that neglect their family through their own religious ambitions. I'm sure there are some things that I do in my family that some people might think is gross or unnecessary and that's okay. Just as I find some things to be gross (family cloth toilet paper), it doesn't mean that I think someone's off their rocker completely and have a distaste for them if they're doing it for the right reasons.
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kathe
New Member
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Post by kathe on Sept 1, 2010 15:43:51 GMT -5
If it's a matter of personal choice that's one thing. I have no problem with that, and respect people who make the choice to live a simpler life than most of us. So many of the women here have come from circumstances that forced them into such a lifestyle for "religious" reasons - I think that influences most of the discussion.
It's the patriarchal mindset, that the woman has no choice in the matter but must live as her husband dictates, that is the sticking point.
Also, there are ways to live without electricity and still stay warm, dry and fed. There are ways to live even without running water and do rather well. But to voluntarily live in a manner that really does endanger the children, as some of these families apparently do, isn't acceptable to most people.
One of the things that stands out to me is that montanamom has chosen to live simply, and seems to know how to do it well. A lot of these families live that way and have no idea how to do it. They just live that way because it's "God's will" that they don't have electricity, or running water, or flush toilets, or whatever. That's ridiculous.
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Post by ambrosia on Sept 1, 2010 15:44:53 GMT -5
[snip] Personally, I don't have a problem with most of what you wrote here. And I don't think lack of electricity to be "abuse" or "neglect". Really? My husband and I both spent much of our lives living that way. His parents were hippies and mine were poor. We always had enough to eat, were warm, and could get clean. Sure, we had to go get our firewood, trade working on a farm for produce, and sometimes bath in a creek. But what in the world is wrong with that? We both loved our childhoods. And we look back on them with fond memories, even the difficult times. [snip] I guess I'm just seeing alot of judgement on this forum toward people who live this type of lifestyle, regardless of motive. It would be nice for others to realize that this is just another personal choice that, at least for me, has nothing to do with anything religious. I'm sorry that those views came across as universally judgmental. I don't think they were meant that way (mine wasn't anyway). The disapproval I have is for people who want to live that sort of lifestyle without understanding how to do it safely and sensibly.
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Post by nikita on Sept 1, 2010 15:48:13 GMT -5
That article described most of my lifestyle choices. And I'm certainly not quiverfull. Or even conservative. Though I have been called "crunchy" so that might be why. Personally, I don't have a problem with most of what you wrote here. And I don't think lack of electricity to be "abuse" or "neglect". Really? My husband and I both spent much of our lives living that way. His parents were hippies and mine were poor. We always had enough to eat, were warm, and could get clean. Sure, we had to go get our firewood, trade working on a farm for produce, and sometimes bath in a creek. But what in the world is wrong with that? We both loved our childhoods. And we look back on them with fond memories, even the difficult times. Reading around here, I am detecting a distaste for anyone who chooses to live how you described. Which makes me rather sad. I get that many here had to live this way due to no choice of their own and in much worse circumstances. But there are many people who choose these types of lifestyles because they want to...they see a benefit in it or perhaps can't afford what "normal" people have. I shop at thrift stores. Pretty much all the time because I can't afford to buy new clothes. Why not when I can get practically new Old Navy and Gap clothes for my kids for 50 cents? I homebirth and homeschool and cook from scratch and practice herbal medicine and am against vaccinations. I just got done baking bread from scratch using my Wonder Mill and Bosch. This has NOTHING to do with anything religious. It's just what I believe is best for my family. I'll be the first to argue with anyone who claims these things to be "more pleasing to God" or some such BS. I guess I'm just seeing alot of judgement on this forum toward people who live this type of lifestyle, regardless of motive. It would be nice for others to realize that this is just another personal choice that, at least for me, has nothing to do with anything religious. I think the key word here is 'choice'. You've made a considered choice to live a particular lifestyle. I love that lifestyle (sans the no vac part) and if I were a different person with a different set of circumstances I could see myself living it. My attempts to do so were thwarted by my need for a little less hardship. Plus I really do like electricity and running water and toilet paper. I'm kind of a wuss about that stuff it turns out. So there's that. But I get you. The problem with the lifestyles we are talking about here is that they aren't just a considered choice by a couple of people who love that lifestyle, they are usually dictated outside of them. Their religious leaders demand it of them. They are shamed to want anything other or more. It's not freedom, it's become enslavement to others' ideas of what is proper, Christian, and correct. I think that makes all the difference. And I hope you'll continue posting here. Your voice is very welcome and you have an interesting perspective to add.
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