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Post by cindy on Sept 5, 2010 20:08:15 GMT -5
Let me be bold enough to say that I have both (1) "judgment" and (2) distaste for this frugal lifestyle B.S. because I DID have to grow up like this time to time during my childhood. NO, it was not fun, NO, it did NOT make me a better person, and YES I still have anger and resentment for not having enough food, Electric (when the bill wasn't paid), NO water - period - to get washed up and ready for school even when I worked in a restaurant kitchen ALL day long on Sundays and came home smelling like grease and having to go to school the next day, etc. and wondering how I would wash myself up so that I didn't stink like lard. There was nothing genius or spiritual about any of it. It was embarrassing and humiliating. Personal choice? I don't remember making a personal choice to suffer like I did as a young teen-ager trying to make it through junior high and high school and not having even my basic needs provided for (even though I started working when I was 14.) I'm 47 now, and I do NOT forget how hard that was on me, my brother, and my mother. My mother ended up dying at a much earlier age than she had to because she suffered and worked so hard. It's taken me almost 30 years to recover from some of the thoughts and bad memories that run through my head when I think of my childhood. I have no idea where this "hippy", "granola crunchy" stuff is coming in - like it's "cool" to suffer or be deprived or something. The fact of the matter is that we grew up in an extended household that was run by a mad man who took all the money that was earned in the household and squandered it all away. He also used the bible to cloak himself with. maicde, Hillary talks about this veneration of hard work and suffering in her book, "Quivering Daughters." She also did not have hot water and water was rationed. She and her siblings cared for goats all day but was not permitted to bathe very frequently. They seek out the "ancient paths" and old ways, and they resist technology in Luddite fashion. Part of this comes from their preoccupation with conspiracy and paranoia. In some circles, it comes out of the ideas of the old Confederacy, despising the industrial revolution and certain types of advances (like in medical care). In other circles, they hate the Enlightenment and see it as evil, so they idealize and seek out things from the medieval period. They want to go back to what Peter Marshall called "the family pew" when family, Protestantism, and American nationalism were more synonymous than they are today. (Many deny that America included non-Protestants and non-Religious Right types.) It's about recreating idealized periods of past, be it Jane Austen or Dabney's Virginia or a fiefdom. There are other people who have been encouraged to move into trailers to drop their living expenses so that they could afford to have more children. I know of several people who haul water daily, including Nancy Campbell's daughter. Churches view anything that these folks do to make the QF lifestyle possible as a sacrament and something to be lauded. People are rewarded and venerated for doing these things. They get lots of positive reinforcement for serving as poster children for the cause. By following these things, people who feel small and insignificant can suddenly become VIPs and they feel like they are part of something that is virtuous and far greater than themselves. For that, they are willing to endure any hardship. In that kind of process, it is very easy to lose perspective.
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Sept 6, 2010 15:06:46 GMT -5
It is their claim that there is a trend in courts, or at least a significant population of people where fathers are favored for custody. protectivemothersalliance.org/Does this group police itself when it comes to mothers who try to allege abuse in order to gain leverage in a custody fight? My fiance has been fighting to be in his daughter's life for over a year now. The entire time that mother was up here in Wisconsin, she claimed over and over to Child Support that my fiance was emotionally abusive to her and her son. Meanwhile, the mother was found guilty of harassing my fiance and then fled to Missouri when it became apparent to social workers up here that her claims were lies. She had them convinced for a long time through doctored emails and whatnot, as well as self-induced panic attacks while talking to caseworkers. I sincerely hope that this group strives for evidence other than he said - she said.
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Hillary
Full Member
"Quivering Daughters ~ Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy" Now Available!
Posts: 129
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Post by Hillary on Sept 6, 2010 18:39:18 GMT -5
Hillary talks about this veneration of hard work and suffering in her book, "Quivering Daughters." She also did not have hot water and water was rationed. She and her siblings cared for goats all day but was not permitted to bathe very frequently. Quick clarification: I did have hot water, and the times we conserved water were when resources were especially lean.
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Post by kisekileia on Sept 7, 2010 14:33:00 GMT -5
HUrry up there, ambrosia. I need to bathe in bleach too. Reusable pads? Ewww! Sharing cloths for wiping your ass after using the bathroom with the rest of your (large) family? I'm cringing so bad. Ohmygod. What a horrifying idea. That part of it isn't as gross as you might think. In my mother's youth, never mind my grandmother's there weren't disposable paper products for sanitary pads. One used rags and washed them. Same for toilet "tissue". There is a "clean" box and a "used" generally covered container with bleach water or other disinfectant. As with cloth diapers (same idea, same risk), the "used" ones are washed thoroughly and frequently. My squickies came from wondering if the family sanitary arrangements for dealing with the waste a large family inevitably produces are dealt with as cavalierly as the heating and air quality. ETA In a family with an endless progression of infants, the diaper pail could do double duty, but I'm just guessing there. Where I draw the line is with items that are going to be used by more than one person. I have a few reusable panty liners, and I may cloth diaper when/if I have kids, but I would never dream of having a "family paper" arrangement or cloth pads that are shared among mother and daughters. If only one person is using an item, and it's not washed with anyone else's stuff, there's little potential for disease transmission. Making items that have held bodily fluids communal is just gross.
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jeb
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by jeb on Sept 7, 2010 15:31:54 GMT -5
Aug 31, 2010, 8:34pm, ambrosia wrote: Aug 31, 2010, 7:17pm, em wrote: HUrry up there, ambrosia. I need to bathe in bleach too. Reusable pads? Ewww! Sharing cloths for wiping your ass after using the bathroom with the rest of your (large) family? I'm cringing so bad. Ohmygod. What a horrifying idea. That part of it isn't as gross as you might think. In my mother's youth, never mind my grandmother's there weren't disposable paper products for sanitary pads. One used rags and washed them. Same for toilet "tissue". There is a "clean" box and a "used" generally covered container with bleach water or other disinfectant. As with cloth diapers (same idea, same risk), the "used" ones are washed thoroughly and frequently. My squickies came from wondering if the family sanitary arrangements for dealing with the waste a large family inevitably produces are dealt with as cavalierly as the heating and air quality. ETA In a family with an endless progression of infants, the diaper pail could do double duty, but I'm just guessing there. Where I draw the line is with items that are going to be used by more than one person. I have a few reusable panty liners, and I may cloth diaper when/if I have kids, but I would never dream of having a "family paper" arrangement or cloth pads that are shared among mother and daughters. If only one person is using an item, and it's not washed with anyone else's stuff, there's little potential for disease transmission. Making items that have held bodily fluids communal is just gross. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Forgive me but you guys are cracking me up with all of this. I was telling Vyckie the other day (and I'm still not sure she believes me) but when I was a wee kid I spent a lot of time on my grandparents farm. They had no electricity or indoor plumbing so kerosene lamps and the 2-holer out back were the 'facilities'. Back then huge catalogues were the norm from (in Canada) Simpsons and Eatons and there was always this 3" thick catalogue between the holes for the purpose of cleaning yourself. You just tore out a page or two and crumpled it up and did the necessary. And if the next page was one of the slick, coloured pages ? ! ? ! don't you dare jump ahead to the newspaper type pages. Just crumple a little harder and go on. One does what one has to, eh? ;D Reminds me of that reality in England a century or 3 ago where in the public, on the street outhouse one was supplied with a stick to do that job and if, in the dark, your grasped the wrong end of the stick, it was called 'getting the mookey end of the stick. Oh ugh, ugh, ugh,. Anyway, I don't know what we'd do without Simpsons, or Eatons or Sears or Mongomery Ward catalogues in this day and age . . . . reusable rags I guess, eh? John
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Post by liltwinstar on Sept 7, 2010 16:10:50 GMT -5
Heh - that reminds me. One branch of my family lives in Rural Georgia, and they've been farmers for several generations. One of my older family members mentioned that when she was a girl and they ran out of the Sears Catalogue, they would use old cornhusks. I don't want to think about the specifics of that, but there's one answer.
She herself in her later years lived in a nice modern home with a bathroom, and yes, toilet paper. And she didn't apologize for it.
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Post by amaranth on Sept 7, 2010 16:23:53 GMT -5
I visited some cousins when I was a kid, and they had an outhouse. I glanced in and noticed that there was no toilet paper. So I turned to my cousin and asked what I was supposed to wipe with. He handed me an empty milk jug. I decided to wait.
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Post by tapati on Sept 7, 2010 18:24:17 GMT -5
Ahhh, outhouses! My grand and great grandparents had them. For my grandparents' farm, it was just a leftover from earlier days but for my great-grandparents it was the only bathroom available.
They used to say that sears and roebuck catalog pages made for good wiping material.
Indian hygiene required washing with water rather than using toilet paper.
I also got poor enough to use cloth for sanitary napkins during my early married years.
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 8, 2010 1:40:28 GMT -5
I also got poor enough to use cloth for sanitary napkins during my early married years. Funny how poor people can't usually afford cloth these days. $15 for one good cloth pad. Pays itself off over time, but too much of an up-front investment for many. I'll be doing it soon so I have a stash for when my post-baby period comes back, but damn it's gonna be expensive.
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Post by tapati on Sept 8, 2010 2:16:51 GMT -5
I also got poor enough to use cloth for sanitary napkins during my early married years. Funny how poor people can't usually afford cloth these days. $15 for one good cloth pad. Pays itself off over time, but too much of an up-front investment for many. I'll be doing it soon so I have a stash for when my post-baby period comes back, but damn it's gonna be expensive. LOL, my "cloth" consisted of torn up strips of my ex husband's dhoti (those long saffron or white sheets of cloth folded into the loose "pants" devotee men wore) folded over several times. They were his old saffron dhotis, no longer suitable for him to wear as a married man. (Single guys wear saffron, married wear white.)
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Post by kisekileia on Sept 8, 2010 12:38:00 GMT -5
My family's cottage has an outhouse, but it's only used when someone's in the bathroom or there's a power outage, and it has toilet paper.
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Post by km on Sept 19, 2010 19:05:51 GMT -5
That part of it isn't as gross as you might think. In my mother's youth, never mind my grandmother's there weren't disposable paper products for sanitary pads. One used rags and washed them. Same for toilet "tissue". There is a "clean" box and a "used" generally covered container with bleach water or other disinfectant. As with cloth diapers (same idea, same risk), the "used" ones are washed thoroughly and frequently. My squickies came from wondering if the family sanitary arrangements for dealing with the waste a large family inevitably produces are dealt with as cavalierly as the heating and air quality. ETA In a family with an endless progression of infants, the diaper pail could do double duty, but I'm just guessing there. Where I draw the line is with items that are going to be used by more than one person. I have a few reusable panty liners, and I may cloth diaper when/if I have kids, but I would never dream of having a "family paper" arrangement or cloth pads that are shared among mother and daughters. If only one person is using an item, and it's not washed with anyone else's stuff, there's little potential for disease transmission. Making items that have held bodily fluids communal is just gross. Yes. It's like sharing underwear. Which we wouldn't really do.
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Post by km on Sept 19, 2010 19:08:35 GMT -5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Forgive me but you guys are cracking me up with all of this. I was telling Vyckie the other day (and I'm still not sure she believes me) but when I was a wee kid I spent a lot of time on my grandparents farm. They had no electricity or indoor plumbing so kerosene lamps and the 2-holer out back were the 'facilities'. Back then huge catalogues were the norm from (in Canada) Simpsons and Eatons and there was always this 3" thick catalogue between the holes for the purpose of cleaning yourself. You just tore out a page or two and crumpled it up and did the necessary. And if the next page was one of the slick, coloured pages ? ! ? ! don't you dare jump ahead to the newspaper type pages. Just crumple a little harder and go on. One does what one has to, eh? ;D Yeah, pretty much. My great-grandmother grew up in a rural area before modern sanitation, and she talked about using dried corn cobs once the corn had been removed. I think that would...kinda hurt!
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Post by km on Sept 19, 2010 19:11:18 GMT -5
Heh - that reminds me. One branch of my family lives in Rural Georgia, and they've been farmers for several generations. One of my older family members mentioned that when she was a girl and they ran out of the Sears Catalogue, they would use old cornhusks. I don't want to think about the specifics of that, but there's one answer. She herself in her later years lived in a nice modern home with a bathroom, and yes, toilet paper. And she didn't apologize for it. Oh! That'll teach me to comment before finishing the thread.
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Post by nikita on Sept 19, 2010 19:20:04 GMT -5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Forgive me but you guys are cracking me up with all of this. I was telling Vyckie the other day (and I'm still not sure she believes me) but when I was a wee kid I spent a lot of time on my grandparents farm. They had no electricity or indoor plumbing so kerosene lamps and the 2-holer out back were the 'facilities'. Back then huge catalogues were the norm from (in Canada) Simpsons and Eatons and there was always this 3" thick catalogue between the holes for the purpose of cleaning yourself. You just tore out a page or two and crumpled it up and did the necessary. And if the next page was one of the slick, coloured pages ? ! ? ! don't you dare jump ahead to the newspaper type pages. Just crumple a little harder and go on. One does what one has to, eh? ;D Yeah, pretty much. My great-grandmother grew up in a rural area before modern sanitation, and she talked about using dried corn cobs once the corn had been removed. I think that would...kinda hurt! Due to the vagaries of age at conception and birth order I have grandparents who were born in the 1870s and 1880s in rural Illinois and their perception of what is necessary was a great deal different than what my young perception was (way back when I was young and they were really really old people). It's hard to even conceive of it but they just thought we were all wusses about stuff. I stand by my wussdom, however. Nothing but involuntary poverty would possess me to give up proper toilet paper and pads, no matter how green/frugal I was trying to live. It really is a matter of perception and expectation, though. It is all just so relative to one's experience and attitude. Corn husks. Eurgh...Edited because corn cobs would hurt a lot more than corn husks do. Still, not gonna try it.
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Post by kisekileia on Sept 19, 2010 22:08:02 GMT -5
Where I draw the line is with items that are going to be used by more than one person. I have a few reusable panty liners, and I may cloth diaper when/if I have kids, but I would never dream of having a "family paper" arrangement or cloth pads that are shared among mother and daughters. If only one person is using an item, and it's not washed with anyone else's stuff, there's little potential for disease transmission. Making items that have held bodily fluids communal is just gross. Yes. It's like sharing underwear. Which we wouldn't really do. My thoughts exactly.
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Post by rachelserine on Oct 3, 2010 23:42:10 GMT -5
We lived with a lot of the frugal ideas espoused in this article when I was growing up. If my family had had the money I doubt we would've lived with 10 people in a 1,400 sq ft house or had five boys and three girls sharing rooms or waited through two MN winters to change out a cracked window in the girls bedroom... But it WAS qf type ideas that contributed to our $10,000/year below-poverty-line income and lifestyle. The "don't go into debt" idea and the "mothers shall not work outside the home" idea. Now my mom is working from home making more than your average woman doctor in the states and my younger siblings have all kinds of exciting things. My husband and I, on the other hand, are pretty frugal, but in more mainstream ways. We only use the dishwasher when it's full. We take shorter showers than we want to - but still at least 15 minutes. We buy used cars, we don't eat out much and we clip coupons. We have three kids in diapers so we basically HAVE to use cloth diapers or we would be broke. One of our friends just got a raise at work - and her raise was equal to what we make in a year. For us, though, it's a temporary situation. We don't plan on living extravagantly once we're past this stage, but we do plan on living with heat, water and a dishwasher. And we hope to save money carefully and give away as much as possible. Even though I really really appreciate frugality and appreciate others who don't go all out extravagantly on themselves but share with those less fortunate I absolutely do NOT understand making this excessive-uber-frugality into a self-righteous-holiness thing. Or a competition. Everything is a competition with these people!!
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