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Post by arietty on May 14, 2010 22:44:03 GMT -5
Dangermom, to answer your questions, that's what I'd say a Christian could do. Just treat people like human beings, just show them love. Quit worrying about what denomination they're in or whether you agree with the quotes they post. Just don't talk about that stuff. Just call a person up and ask if the kids want to go swimming, or to a movie, or say you're going out shopping and could you pick up anything for them while you're out, and by the way you miss them and would they like to stop by for coffee some time--no praying involved! If they're angry, they're angry. People get that way sometimes. It's not something to fear. Maybe it's even worth asking them why they're angry, and then just listening to the answer without taking it personally. (And I don't mean to be preaching at you personally--I'm just thinking out loud and using a general version of "you.") I'm quoting this for it's great advice/comments not to in any way pile on dangermom! V, I could relate to your whole story. I know I often post about how things get better, being now 10+ years out of fundamentalism, QF and an abusive marriage. But the pain of the church and friend rejection never did get better for me. It just got less prominent as my new life gradually filled up my time and thoughts. However not a week goes by without some reminder of the most painful event of my life and it is still a kick in the gut. And sometimes I still dwell on it and have to deliberately make myself stop. The anger, yes yes yes, I was angry. And I knew that scared people off. And that made me MORE angry. I needed to actually get angry to leave in the first place, 15 years of being trained to be submissive and terrified was not going to get me out. No only anger, an anger that no longer cared what people thought or if my ex was really going to break every bone in my body as he so often threatened was going to do it. So initially I was angry at my ex, my life and myself. Then as time went on I was angry at church people who every time I ran into them or if they contacted me were all about praying my marriage would be RESTORED and who were full of deep, compassionate, nearly tearful concern for.. my ex. And expressed their concerns for "that poor man" to me. The single mother of many children living in poverty in a shack with daily phone calls from "that poor man" talking about the different ways he would hurt, burn, torture and kill me. So yeah, I was angry. And that puts people off. And I knew it did. And people also knew that I was not swayable, not influenceable in any way as to the state of my marriage, that door was firmly closed in their face. And really, it is actually normal that people cannot handle this. I was friends with them because we connected on church or QF/homeschooling culture. Now I had, by my Great Sin, stepped completely outside of that culture and I was well out of their comfort zone. Church culture is all about making a comfort zone away from the scary scary world.. everyone gets affirmed by everyone else that this is a good choice, so when someone steps outside of that the friendship becomes one way. No affirmation from the lost sheep. btw I cried when I read your blog post. I quoted that verse about the lost sheep to my pastor of that time many years ago, about 5 years after I divorced. I had asked him outright why he had abandoned me and he said, "I didn't abandon you, you didn't come to church, I can't minister to people who don't come to church." So I quoted him that verse and said "I was the lost sheep, no one came looking for me." And he responded by getting REALLY angry and denying this and then practically running to his car.
So that verse is very poignant to me.. I know what it is to be that lost sheep so well. And I still feel exactly like that in relation to the church, not just that specific church but the church as a whole. I feel as though that experience marked me for life and I can no longer see "the fold" as anything other than a conditional relationship. I have new, non-christian friends now who like me because of ME, Arietty, not because of any meetings I attend. If I became a Buddhist or did a 180 on my political beliefs they would still be my friends because our friendship is not based on ideology.
You are right Vyckie that Christ does compel Christians to move outside of their comfort zone and go after the lost sheep. But they are to go after that sheep to return it to the fold. Not to take it shopping or have coffee with it. So you are doubley in the too hard basket by being both outside the comfort zone and declaring No Returns.
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Post by anatheist on May 15, 2010 0:01:05 GMT -5
I quoted that verse about the lost sheep to my pastor of that time many years ago, about 5 years after I divorced. I had asked him outright why he had abandoned me and he said, "I didn't abandon you, you didn't come to church, I can't minister to people who don't come to church." Arietty, I'm so sorry. My former pastor told another church member almost the same thing while I was going through the divorce, so I know that it's very painful. I've thought about contacting him and confronting him, but I think it's better that he's out of my life forever and doesn't even know where I am. My father admitted to me outright that he knew that if he and my mother ever got divorced for any reason, even one that was entirely her fault (which is not a situation that's actually happening, nor are there any serious problems that I know of in their marriage), no one at their church would support him or reach out to him. And I have absolutely no doubt that he's right. He and I have a similar introverted non-touchy-feely personality. It kind of blows me away that he is able to recognize this and he's still able to go to church three times a week. It's been my perception that one doesn't just have to be the right kind of submissive and dedicate your life to god and the church, but that you also have to be the right personality - as a woman, one that other people see as docile and maternal, but also extroverted and loving to work with other people.
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Post by jadehawk on May 15, 2010 2:18:50 GMT -5
I don't really know what to say... shunning is a horrible practice, the very embodiment of the "us" vs. "them" mentality. and it destroys people.
it's very likely that this pastor is one of those "Christianity is not a religion, Christianity is a relationship" people. I personally despise this sort of special pleading, but whatever.
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Post by burris on May 15, 2010 2:43:03 GMT -5
I know you're an atheist now, and that you were deeply wounded through participation in the QF movement, but it seems to me that you're still a better Christian than some of your friends were - and I firmly, utterly believe that in the end, there is a God who will look at your honesty, and at all the hard work you've done in faith that others would benefit, and conclude you were good and faithful whether you recognized the existence of such a being or not. I'm sorry for nitpicking, but I feel that this is a very offensive and presumptuous statement. I know my claim - i.e., that God exists and would conclude Vyckie was faithful regardless of her personal belief - is a presumption; but I'm honestly not seeing how it's offensive. I certainly didn't mean it offensively, at any rate.
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Post by eriktrips on May 15, 2010 3:03:01 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I didn't find this to be a self-pitying post at all. It seems fairly reasonable to wonder where one's friends are, or where they have gone, when at one time it seemed that your relationship with them could never be broken. I have a few ideas about why they are not willing to face you now, and others have already noted that the rumors being spread could very well be coming from the top--wherever that might be in any given case. I do think that your conversation with Pastor Tom illustrates a little too well how desperately some Christian sects keep an iron fist around their flocks. "Stay and suffer or leave and suffer," as another poster has put it.
I don't know quite how to express what resonates the most for me in this post without descending into my own spiritual abuse-fueled PTSD symptoms in gross detail, but maybe an example from my own life will give some hint. I haven't posted much here but I may have mentioned in the distant past that I am transsexual and that I was raised in a fundamentalist Southern Baptist church. I transitioned from female-presenting to male-presenting starting in 1997, at the age of 35. My parents had only very recently gotten used to the idea of my being a dyke--this they could not even begin to accept.
For somewhat random reasons I also experienced a very severe depressive crash a little later on, in late 97 through most of 98, and it was a truly horrifying one. I did not tell my parents much about it, given that we weren't really communicating a great deal anyway and--well, there are so many reasons that I can't get into in this small a space. However, I had been in some contact with my father, and I got an email from him sometime early in what turned out to be a lengthy breakdown and even lengthier recovery, and it said something to the effect of hoping I was doing well, but not too well, and that I knew why.
Although it wasn't quite the same as being told "hope you are miserable until you figure out that god doesn't want you to be a man," it struck me as euphemistically saying more or less just that. The fact that I was, at the time, frequently considering suicide, made it hard not to feel like my dad had just kicked me to the curb, even though what he said seemed rather vaguely ill-wishing: I could recognize in his understatement things that I had been taught when I was very young.
I dunno. Maybe I was overreacting then, but I remembered all too well the sorts of psychological threats that were made towards anyone wavering in their faith and I remembered all too well the pathos-laden scenarios in which tearful friends imagined that god would indeed make a "backslider" miserable until they came around. What made this all worse for me, and makes it difficult even to talk about now, is that the voices in my head echoed the exact same line that your Pastor Tom told you: that I was going to get worse and worse until I returned to the fold.
I don't consider myself completely free of those voices yet, but I know where they come from and I know I introjected or internalized them as a child watching fundamentalist families practically fall apart because one or more grown or half-grown children had learned to think for themselves and decided that fundamentalism was not inclusive enough to hold them. Of course, at the time I, too, thought that these people were condemned to circle the drain until they found their lost faith. The result is that, as someone who has depression inscribed in my genetics from both sides of the family, simply acknowledging when I am not doing so well carries with it this double-bind threat that such an acknowledgment might trigger my own voices. But for decent self-care, I have to be honest about what is going on in my head at any given time.
It's delicate.
But yeah. I know that particular trope very well and it is a pernicious one. If your old friends are still taken in by that kind of rhetoric, I honestly have to say that it is not surprising to me that they are avoiding you. You are dangerous and need to be prayed for from a safe distance. They are scared--some half to death--of what you represent: the possibility that they might be wrong. But of course, that is absolutely impossible, so they have to either re-save you or erase you in order to keep their own cognitive dissonance from shaking their faith too violently. Simply being as you are now is unthinkable within the system they currently obey: why would anyone give up such perfect acceptance, understanding and love?
Only for some of us, it doesn't work out to be exactly that, does it?
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Post by burris on May 15, 2010 3:56:12 GMT -5
I'm sure Burris meant well here, but I feel compelled to say this: A lot of people use the word "Christian" to imply good character. Of course, by implication, that would mean that non-Christians have bad character. Okay - well then I can see why BB was offended. It's not my intent to hurt anyone, and I'm sorry. I didn't express myself very clearly in the last post, so I'll enlarge on the point on a post tomorrow. (I've really gotta hit the hey.) I will say this, however: I in no way meant to suggest that Christianity is the pinnacle of morality, etc.
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maicde
Junior Member
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Post by maicde on May 15, 2010 5:27:54 GMT -5
Vyckie, good job for getting out when you did! Your former "friends" are not stable enough in their own mental health, faith, whatever to stay friends with you. They sound to me like "birds of a feather flock together" type friends. Your particular situation is that you left their crazy "fold" and now you are no longer "one of them." In the "secular" world, alcoholics who stop drinking and stop going to bars, etc., suddenly lose their drinking buddies. Druggies who stop doing drugs lose their "let's get stoned" buddiess. Basically, you have chosen to live a different life, one that is healthy for your and your family. They are still sick. Oh, yes, they are very sick. They see you as someone who is holding a mirror in front of their own faces and they don't like what they see. They are not ready to face that. It's a simple as that. Sure, they like to think that it's YOU that's messed up and made the wrong choice to leave their perfect life/lifestyle because it's the only way that they can rationalize why their own lives stink. They can't stand the fact that you saw your life for what it was and you dared to change it!!! Oh, the horrors! New friends and new healthy situations will come into your life as soon as you drop these people from your awareness and focus. You literally have to bless them and release them from your life and let go of all of that baggage and your past. Once that is accomplished, there are loving and kind people that will come into your life. Your mental and emotional haze will begin to clear too. P.S. - Pastor Tom and the rest of the Christian fundie excuses for being representatives of Christ are just plain a-holes. They make a mockery of being Christians and representating Christ. He blames his own son for running away and turning to self-destructive behavior. God forbid that he hold the mirror of self-truth to his own face and take some accountability. Hello no! He then calls you to dump his cr*p on you. Seriously, Vyckie, they are doing you a favor (in the long run) by staying out of your life. Don't take it as a bad thing, take it as a sign that you are moving on with your life and that new people and good things will continue to fill it. Let the nastiness and all that you left stay in the past as you continue to build your life for yourself and your children in a more healthy way. I know it's hard, but anything worthwhile is hard. You are learning new ways to cope, new healthy ways. There is no way that your former "friends" can operate or function in a healthy way. They are used to operating under the guise that the "world is out to get them", that "Satan is trying to destroy them" and that they all have to stick together to combat this perceived enemy. Their misery is what holds them together. It's what they have in common. It's what they pray about. It helps when someone's misery is greater than your own and that's what gets them through their life of wifely submission, their children falling apart, their bad financial situation, their crumbling marriages, etc. And when one person dares step out of that fold, that mentality, that life, they're certainly not going to applaud them for it, instead they're going to do what all sheep do, they bleet about about how one of their own has strayed and must be brought back. Misery loves company and you've dared leave their company. Nope, you've done the right thing. Staying where you were would have eventually manifested into more dysfunction for yourself and your children. You did right by your kids for getting out. You did what a loving mother does - she protects her children from harm. Of course, your former "friends" can't accept that because that would mean that they would actually have to look at the reality of their life and take some accountability. It's easier to take the focus off their own messed up life and put the blame on you for leaving their warped world. Regarding Facebook, I'd de-friend those suckers pronto and I would never talk about them on this blog (or anywhere else) again. No focus, no problem. They are not deserving of your attention and plus, you will be stuck with your wheels spinning until you stop focusing on them completely. This might sound cruel, harsh, or un-Christian, but I'm telling you 100% that you have to save yourself first in this case, and that means concentrating on healing yourself mentally, emotionally, and physically. Right now, you have to "pivot" your focus, you must change the story that you're talking in your head right now. Change your story to say good and positive things about your life right now and eventually, it will replace the old story that you went through. You have to do this for your own self-preservation. It is a skill, a habit, that will help you. Save yourself, as that's the only person you have any control over. In time, some of your friends might have their eyes opened as you did, but that's not your job to make that happen. If and when it happens, you can be of support to them. Take care of yourself.
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Post by kisekileia on May 15, 2010 8:25:02 GMT -5
Quivery, that's horrible that your situation was handled in such a punitive way. The right way to handle it would have been an immediate psychiatrist visit and possibly hospitalization--but with LOVE, not condemnation.
Maicide, I take exception to the idea that "changing your story" and thinking positively will make everything better. That concept is basically just magical thinking, and it leads to the idea that if things aren't better, you must not have thought positively enough. That's just as much of a screwed up mental trap as "if things aren't better, I must not have been faithful enough".
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Post by km on May 15, 2010 10:40:27 GMT -5
Maicide, I take exception to the idea that "changing your story" and thinking positively will make everything better. That concept is basically just magical thinking, and it leads to the idea that if things aren't better, you must not have thought positively enough. That's just as much of a screwed up mental trap as "if things aren't better, I must not have been faithful enough". I completely agree with this.
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Post by cynicmom on May 15, 2010 10:52:17 GMT -5
My guess is the pastors son "saw the light" because with a bullet in his head he really needed his daddy's support and being Christian was the only way to get it.
I'm so sorry V. I wish there was a way to help. It seems like everyone I know who loses their religion also loses their family and friends.
FWIW, I think a large part of your stress is due to wanting to do things the way other families do. I understand your desire, but it just doesn't seem to be working for your family. What is the point if you have everything "perfect" but lose your sanity and health in the process?! Your body is screaming at you to SLOW DOWN!
What's the worst that could happen if you let things go? Your kids wouldn't die if you only did laundry once a month. Or only cooked once every 10 days. Or made it a point never to run more than two errands per day (if that).
I don't mean to suggest by the above that the stress is all your doing. It isn't! I hope you get a good nights rest tonight.
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Post by amyrose on May 15, 2010 11:26:01 GMT -5
I've been there and done that, Vyckie. On a much smaller scale, but still the same in ways.
When I resigned from the "Christian" school to take another job, I was immediately shunned by people who had supposedly been my friends for six years. There were only a few acceptable reasons to quit teaching at the school: 1-your husband got a job somewhere else. 2--you were getting married or having a baby and no longer working or 3-you were male and needed a higher paying job. Leaving for any other reason constituted abandoning the ministry and possibly Christianity. I made it worse by getting a job in a Catholic school. The following fall, that school was the visiting team at a volleyball game at my new one. Only two people spoke to me at that game. Several people purposely turned away and a number of parents stared, pointed and whispered. I found out later that the girls on the team had been told to "stay away from" me.
Just before that game, I had found out that there were rumors about me all over the school community. I had resigned and found a new position over the summer. So I had not seen students to tell them why I was leaving and where I was going. When school started, the principal issued an edict that no one was to tell them but must answer any question about me with "we can't talk about that". Of course, that was an invitation for rumors. Since I was single they included that I was pregnant, that I was in a lesbian relationship, and (unrelated to being single) that I was in drug rehab.
Two years later, a teacher from there invited me to her wedding. She had sometimes wanted to keep in touch and sometimes not. We had been very close when working together. I arranged to go to the wedding with a couple who worked at the school that I had remained close to. A week before, that woman got a phone call from another teacher telling her that she had heard I was coming with them and telling them to please be aware that a number of people were uncomfortable with that and would not be able to associate with them or me at the wedding as I had 'clearly fallen away' and the bride should not have invited someone involved in a cult (Catholicism). I went with the other couple anyway, because they didn't care what others said or did. We spent most of the time with just the three of us and one woman came up to me in the food line and told me she was praying for me to come back to faith and morality. She knew nothing about my life, just assumed that I was somehow behaving immorally because I was out of the confines of their fundamentalist ghetto.
Nine years after I left, I got married. I invited the couple I had attended the other wedding with, another teacher and his wife, and the woman who was married at the other wedding. The first two couples came happily. The woman who got married two years after I left did not come. She let the others know that her husband had decided that it would be "too dangerous" and probably "sinful" for them to attend a Catholic wedding as they would have to be in a Catholic church and because there would probably be alcohol at the reception (there was). About a month later, she sent a note. Not a wedding card and no gift. The note told me why they didn't come and that they were praying for me because they heard that I had actually become Catholic. They are praying that I "find Jesus again" and "get away from evil Catholic influences"--like my husband, I guess. After all, people in their denomination are on the forefront of "preserving the sanctity of marriage", right?
My Maid of Honor from my wedding is some bizarre hybrid of left-wing liberal and fundamentalist Christian (Jesus eats local and shops at Whole Foods??) . She pretended for some time to be okay with my becoming Catholic. But once she had to actually absorb it as fact at the wedding, she was not. The last conversation we had was 13 months ago--a month after my wedding. She happily told me that my wedding mass wasn't actually very Catholic because Catholic masses and weddings are cold and distant and do not feature any reading from the Bible. Since our wedding mass did, clearly, I have been able to keep the Catholic church at bay and stay "evangelical" and she was happy about that. I explained that our wedding mass was straight out of the Archdiocese's wedding liturgy and I have the booklet we chose the prayers and readings from to prove it, and that I am not at all Evangelical anymore. End of friendship. She ended it, not me.
These are people who cannot have their status quo challenged. And a huge part of their status quo is that you are either one of them or you are living a very very bad life. You can't leave their world and be happy or whole or deal with struggles or have any virtue or decency. Their entire means of conversion relies on that being true. Think about all the testimonies---someone was drug-addicted, sleeping around excessively, in prison, that sort of extreme stuff and found Jesus and everything became perfect for them. Or the whole "people want what we have" line of thinking. How everyone who is not "saved" is unhappy and unfulfilled and is going to look at the "saved" group and say "what do you have that I don't have?" and the good evangelizers are going to say "JESUS!" and save them. I've heard evangelism spiels where they basically try to convince an audience or presumably unsaved people that they are miserable and don't know it but if they get saved, they'll be so happy that they'll see how miserable they were before the magical transformation of repeating the sinner's prayer after the leader.
That way of conversion doesn't work if people who are "unsaved" aren't miserable in some way. So they have to stay far away from people who leave the fold and find fulfilling happy lives. That fact will upset everything they've been taught to believe. If you can have a satisfying life without their belief system...their belief system can very easily fall apart. My old friends had to avoid me because I was much happier after I left their warped and emotionally destructive world. And Vyckie, you and your children may not have the perfect life now, but you've said over and over that in spite of the struggles you all are more relaxed and free than in your previous life. They can't risk seeing that. Contentment and freedom are only possible if you're saved and living by their rules; that has been drilled into them and it is way too big of a risk for them to possibly see that that is not true.
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Post by ashmeadskernal on May 15, 2010 11:30:30 GMT -5
When somebody comes over to your house, sees that you are hurting, and tells you that they wish for you to get shot in the head, do you really think your brain takes it figuratively? or literally? It is the equivalent of saying "I hope you burn in hell!" It really does hurt, and it really is a psychological attack. The question is, do you defend yourself? Do you attack back? Do you banish the attacker from your life forever? If you banish all attackers, you run the risk of banishing everybody, because sometimes people just have bad days and repeat scripts they've been taught since childhood. But, sometimes, attacking back doesn't work. And sometimes it does. Sometimes it takes a return attack for people to snap out of it and realize what they've done. You know, by not feeding you, the lost sheep, the least of these, they've not fed Jesus. Or do you endlessly turn the other cheek? Yeah, that worked well. Do you ignore the bad behavior and praise the good behavior? Really hard to do, when you're angry, or hurting. People are complex creatures, and everybody is vulnerable. Everybody hurts. So, you do whatever it takes to raise your children right. You can't prevent all attacks. You can't prevent heartbreak, nor falling out of love. You can't prevent disillusionment. You can't prevent death, or taxes, or laundry. Indeed, it's not your job to do so. Embrace the pain. Don't run from it, or shove it into the corner to focus on other happier thoughts. Life is suffering. Only when you have fully embraced your pain, can you then be able to fully embrace the other emotions as well, all of them, your anger, your sadness, your joy, your humor, your gallows humor, your disregard for some things, and intense focus on others. You change, and you stay the same at the same time. There is more to life than being "happy" "successful" "popular" "righteous" "mom". Ah hell, what do I know? I'm younger than you, and I have much less on my plate.
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Post by burris on May 15, 2010 12:55:43 GMT -5
In claiming that Vyckie the atheist is a better Christian then her friends, I’m saying she exhibits more of the positive character traits I believe are supposed to be the fruits of “Christian faith.” ( These good qualities exist among atheists and among people of all faiths, and don’t have a special relationship to Christianity; but Christians are told through numerous passages in the Bible to embrace many of the qualities Vyckie now exhibits. Her former friends, while still being Christian, have managed to abandon those qualities without realizing it and without having damaged their perception of a great relationship with God.) I read the Bible every day. I read books about the Bible including modern and early expositions, as well as critical scholarship and alternate translations. I read a few peer-reviewed journal articles – most from a historical-critical position – on subjects related to the Bible every month. (I am, in short, what my hubby calls a “Bible Geek.”) The reason I’m telling you all that crap is because I want you to know I don’t have any illusions that the Bible is a warm, fuzzy book filled with nothing but good instructions for life in the 21st Century. (Reading through Joshua and Numbers should disabuse anyone with such notions.) There are, however, some principles that anyone who professes a belief (even an ever-so-slight one) in the inspired nature of the book are supposed to follow: Gentle speech: Colossians 4:6, Galatians 5:23, Ephesians 4:2, Philippians 4:5, Colossians 3:12 etc. Generosity: Leviticus 19:9-10, Proverbs 14:21, Luke 3:10-11, 1 John 3:17, A certain level of consideration for enemies: - “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, lest the LORD see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.” – Proverbs 24:17-18
- “You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust…” – Matthew 5:43-8
But then there are guys like Pastor Tom: He wasn’t at all concerned with compassion or justice of mercy or other “weightier matters”; he was simply – and I can think of no other way to put this – a self-serving asshole. (Oh, he’s still a Christian. I don’t doubt that. He’s just not a very good person, and he managed to ignore a whole raft of important Christian tenets when he spoke to Vyckie.) Here’s the model verse he should have considered before opening his mouth: “A bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench; he will faithfully bring forth justice.” – Isaiah 42:3 There are so, so many more verses and even whole books (e.g., Ruth, Jonah, and James) I could mention that contain the principles above, but this isn’t a Bible chat. The point I’d hoped to make was this: Vyckie maintains good qualities – those that are supposed to be practiced by Christians – merely for their own sakes, and helps other people – “the least of these” – without expectation of eternal reward of fear of eternal damnation. I would argue those amorphous things called “belief” and “faith,” however much they’re touted as the only path to salvation by Vyckie’s former QF friends, are treated merely as interior emotions by those same people. They “believe.” They “have faith.” They spoke some magic words, putting together the correct formula to gain God’s favor. They listen to the right music, buy the right DVDs, read the right version of the Bible, give money to VF. And many of them are appalled by the suggestion that belief and faith are anything other than emotions or intellectual decisions. They hate the claim that belief and faith are acts – things they must do, not to themselves (as is the case with QF women who risk their own lives through multiple pregnancies) but for others. Faith, in my own opinion, isn’t merely demonstrated by how a person lives; it’s entwined with compassionate living, and there’s no way to uncouple the two that won’t destroy the former: Mathew 25:33-39 (compare with Matthew 7:22 and James 2:15-17). Spurgeon made a similar point in 1855: “Let your conversation be redolent of heaven. Let your hearts be perfumed with affection for men's souls. So live that men may take knowledge of you that you have been with Jesus, and have learned of him…” Vyckie could have turned into a nihilist. She could also have kept this story to herself, or kept whatever money she earned to herself. There are a lot of things she could have done, and most of those things would make perfect sense in a world without innate purpose. But she didn’t. She told her story and encouraged dialogue and put up with mountains of flak from her former “friends.” She set up a foundation for other women wishing to escape QF. In part by encouraging guest-posts and FAQs by practicing Christians (such as krwordgazer), Vyckie made respectful space for people – for all her readers – to maintain their own belief systems even though she no longer has a share in theism. Because I believe in the existence of a creator who has an interest in world events and in individual lives, and because I think faith in the existence of such a being is necessarily entangled with benevolence and service towards other people (and animals), then I would maintain that Vyckie’s refusal to throw in the towel and her interest in helping other people are evidences of…well…faith (and whether that faith is in humanity or God doesn’t matter, because the ultimate test is “whatever you do to the least of these…”). I know that statement doesn't line up with formal logic, but it's what I believe. Tom and Trish (?) and others who made cutting comments and justified them through a belief in Christianity – these people all claim to have faith. They ‘prophesy and cast out demons.’ And Vyckie, an atheist, still manages to be better at doing Christianity than they are.
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Post by krwordgazer on May 15, 2010 15:11:16 GMT -5
Burris, I think you make a lot of sense. The perspective of the Bible you present could have exposed the insanity that nearly killed poor Quivery, for what it really was. I understand Quivery's parents pulling her out of that cultish college, though I'm very disturbed at their reaction to their own daughter's plight. As for the parable of the lost sheep--a parable is intended to illustrate one idea, not a whole systematic theology. The idea that the lost sheep parable presents is that God loves and seeks the lost sheep-- there is nothing about the Good Shepherd hurting the sheep in order to drag it back into the fold. Tom was absolutely in the wrong. His job was to love even a person who, from his perception, had been a "sheep" and was now his "enemy," as Burris says. There are plenty of other parables and teachings of Jesus that talk about how we relate to others who are not of our group, and none of them involve either abandoning them, or trying to drag or drive them back into the fold with threats and condemnation. Blech. In fact, it's not the sheeps' job to return a lost sheep to the fold-- it's the Shepherd's job. And his folds are bigger and more numerous than most of the sheep want to believe. He even said he had other sheep in other folds. (I'm frankly appalled by the story of the "Christian" free health clinic that would only treat other professing Christians. Did they just take some scissors and cut the Good Samaritan parable right out of their Bibles? ) Shunning those who dare to leave is a characteristic of cults. But I also think it's just plain human nature (as Maicle pointed out) to pull back from those who not only leave our group, but then begin exposing the group's problems. From the perspective of a Quiverfull "sheep," Vyckie is not only a sheep who has left the fold, but has also started calling to the sheep that are still in the fold, "Hey, are you unhappy? From out here where I am, I can see that you've been herded into a tiny, airless cage inside the fold-- the fold is much bigger and more open than you think it is! And it's not so bad outside the fold, either! Are you sure the shepherds who put you in that tiny cage inside the fold were acting on the orders of the Good Shepherd?" And then the sheep hear that Vyckie has come to doubt whether there even is a Good Shepherd. Even though she is not trying to make them doubt, they are upset by that. The sheep in the cage feel that the lost sheep has not only rejected them, but is now attacking them and their safe little cage. It's not surprising that they feel defensive. Though they are supposed to love their "enemies," they are probably too upset to do so. Some of them are even lashing out in response to the perceived attack. I know how hurt you feel, Vyckie-- I've been shunned and attacked too, by scared, angry, defensive "righteous" sheep. It seems to me that it's harder to have compassion for them than for just about anyone else-- and I think that voicing your very legitimate disappointment and pain is an important part of your healing. But I also know I was once one of those who shunned and rejected people who left my cult too. Eventually, I found a way to forgive myself, and to forgive them. Broken relationships often just stayed broken, though. But new relationships came along, as others have also said here. We on this forum are all in your corner. ;D
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Post by MoonlitNight on May 15, 2010 21:03:17 GMT -5
Most people have already said what I could say and better. I especially agree with what maicde and amyrose said. So let me present you all with some highly relevant links. These two are about the people in authoritarian movements and the leaders of such, and about what drives people to get out of such movements. dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/cracks-in-wall-part-i-defining.htmldneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/tunnels-and-bridges-part-i-divide-and.htmlThe Slacktivist, slacktivist.typepad.com/, is just wonderful to read -- compassionate, skeptical, and mercilessly insightful. Please consider reading his tear-down of the Left Behind series from the very start. (Currently at slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/page/28/. It shows newest first.) I particularly like that he analyzes it from so many angles: writing, world-building, evangelical theology, and basic human decency. The comments are worth reading too! And I just remembered the other thing I wanted to say that I don't think anyone else has: when you are living in a bad to intolerable situation that you cannot get out of, your brain skews your thinking to help keep you from going insane from the pain and dissonance. While I've never been a prisoner of the patriarchy the way most of you have, I grew up with a seriously neurotic and controlling mother who, if I asked a therapist, would probably be considered emotionally abusive. Within a year or two of finally moving out for good, I started being SO much happier and able to notice and understand just how broken my parents and therefore I was. I no longer had to pretend that misery was normal in order to cope. I had also finally gotten some experience teaching me how other, less broken people relate to eachother. That skewing is operating on at least some of your former friends, Vyckie, but *yours* is fading away. It's been wonderful watching you heal and gain experience.
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Post by quivery on May 15, 2010 23:04:56 GMT -5
Vyckie,
If I could hug you for as long as I could hug you, I wouldn't let go for YEARS. (((V)))
Kise, thank you for your compassionate and loving reply--which warmed my heart. As for my parents, they were overwhelmed with anger when they first saw me in my reeking, wretched state--and that was when they made the comments I mentioned. They now understand where I was coming from, and what made me turn to an online Ouija board in hopes of contacting Grandma. Mom is still a fundamentalist Christian, but I'm not.
Some believe if you're not a fundamentalist Christian, you're not a Christian. What??
I was hospitalized for 3 days in 1999 and had plenty of psychiatrist visits after that. *heh* I most recently, last November, had a relapse due to job burnout and stress and had to go back into the hospital for 3 more days. Ihought I didn't need my meds anymore because I was doing great. WRONG! I hadn't taken them for about 6 months, and my mood deteriorated to the point where I was having severe panic attacks again.
Now I'm back on my meds, and better, though I have some real trouble turning my brain off at night when it's time to go to sleep. It's just *thinking, thinking, thinking*!!!!!!!!!!
One question: What does "love the sinner, hate the sin" mean in non-religious terms?
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Post by thatgirljj on May 15, 2010 23:21:19 GMT -5
Vyckie, I don't read your blog super regularly, nor usually comment, so I hope this doesn't come out of the blue... especially since it's not related to the main content of your blog post. Awkward, I know.
You mentioned at the beginning of this post that you have a migraine, and over the last few weeks that you've had a pencil shaving smell that you just can't shake. Please talk to your doctor (or physician assistant, whoever listens best!) about whether the smell might be part of a migraine aura. If you google "olfactory aura" it might be helpful. I don't get the typical auras, but I do get the smell hallucinations, and for me it's usually a clear sign a migraine is coming.
OK... tangent finished. Hugs to you and I hope you're feeling better.
-Jennifer
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Post by anatheist on May 16, 2010 0:26:27 GMT -5
Because I believe in the existence of a creator who has an interest in world events and in individual lives, and because I think faith in the existence of such a being is necessarily entangled with benevolence and service towards other people (and animals), then I would maintain that Vyckie’s refusal to throw in the towel and her interest in helping other people are evidences of…well…faith (and whether that faith is in humanity or God doesn’t matter, because the ultimate test is “whatever you do to the least of these…”). I know that statement doesn't line up with formal logic, but it's what I believe. I don't want to derail the main conversation topic, and I also don't want to be overly antagonistic, so this is the last thing I have to say about this. Because people have a variety of beliefs here, we generally try to only make positive assertions about our own faith or lack thereof, and not ascribe "faith" to people who have rejected it. I still feel that you crossed that line. I'm dealing with a similar attitude with my mother right now. Although typically she takes a more evangelical/fundamentalist stance on salvation, she just isn't willing to accept that I will not be saved (IMO because there is nothing to be saved from, but in her beliefs, because I am going to hell). Therefore, she tells me things like that god exists but I am moving toward faith and acting in faith even though I don't even know it myself. Very, very, very triggering. I don't expect a Christian to agree with me that there is no god, but I do not appreciate hearing non-Christians be told that they actually aren't aware of what's really going on in their life, which is what you're saying if you're telling someone that "there is a God who will look at your honesty, and at all the hard work you've done in faith that others would benefit, and conclude you were good and faithful whether you recognized the existence of such a being or not." I hope that you can see that from my point of view.
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Post by burris on May 16, 2010 5:56:29 GMT -5
I'm dealing with a similar attitude with my mother right now. Although typically she takes a more evangelical/fundamentalist stance on salvation, she just isn't willing to accept that I will not be saved (IMO because there is nothing to be saved from, but in her beliefs, because I am going to hell). Therefore, she tells me things like that god exists but I am moving toward faith and acting in faith even though I don't even know it myself. Very, very, very triggering. With respect, you're basing assumptions about me on experience you have with your own family. I'll try to be sensitive, but I don't think I "crossed the line." I think I initially expressed my opinion without enough explanation and, as I said, it was not my intent to hurt anyone. For that, I'm sorry. I also made an effort to expand on my original thoughts in a subsequent post. But again, I don't think I crossed any line. If I want to tell someone she's 'not aware of what's going on in her own life,' then I'll come right out and say it. I won't bury it between the lines or couch it in positive terms. So since I didn't actually say that, you can be assured I don't believe it.
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maicde
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by maicde on May 16, 2010 6:02:10 GMT -5
Maicide, I take exception to the idea that "changing your story" and thinking positively will make everything better. That concept is basically just magical thinking, and it leads to the idea that if things aren't better, you must not have thought positively enough. That's just as much of a screwed up mental trap as "if things aren't better, I must not have been faithful enough". I "take exception" with you taking exception with me, basically on things you conjured up in your own mind and then transferred to me, making me take ownership of YOUR thoughts and biases. Here are my points: (1) "Magical thinking" - NO, it is not. (2) Whatever it actually "is" works for me; it works for others as well. (3) About the "not being faithful enough" and "screwed up mental trap" - I have no clue where that came in?? Not only did I never say it, but I also never thought it. The "not being faithful enough" (and that's why you're suffering) mantra is SO repulsive to me that it brings up the past which makes me sick to think about it. For you to even accuse me of it, makes me extremely angry because it's not true. Do you see what I mean about projecting your own thoughts and biases onto me? Let me judge you from afar even though I know nothing about you and see how YOU feel. (4) Just because we might not understand something, doesn't mean that people who have different thoughts should be attacked/bullied. For the record, I have my own issues which HAVE affected my 26+ years of marriage and also 7 children. "THIS" is what I have found that has worked for me. Let's not be like the people some of us left behind. Understand that there are many treatment/healing modalities out there. Understand that there are different ways of healing, different paths to healing. People are going to have different takes on/advice/thoughts on Vyckie's life/situation. Like I said, Let's not be like the people that some of us left behind. Otherwise, we are still there...in our own mind. And that's what matters the most. Perhaps only certain mindsets are excepted on this forum, time will tell. People come in all shapes, forms, mindsets, if this is a one-size fits all, then that's too bad because life is not all black and white or so rigid. Vyckie, you WILL get through this. It took a long time to get fully entrenched in the mindset/belief system you were in. It's going to take a long time to disengage from it. I know that you're suffering in many ways now as you're going through your healing process, but you also suffered while you were entrenched into the life you used to lead. However, you rationalized your suffering as "doing it for God", "giving it up for God." Now, you're doing it for yourself and your children. Remember that it's a process, not a one-time shot. You're going to be re-learning things you forgot or were stifled and you're going to be learning new things along the way! You're going to come through it all in time. Take it one day at a time. One thing for certain, YOU ARE LOVED. One more thing, we are all on a journey, your past is just part of the journey, NOT the whole journey. You've changed the course, the route, and you will eventually find your bearings and you will fly and soar. Wishing you good health, love, and peace to be happy and well.
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Post by krwordgazer on May 16, 2010 12:27:36 GMT -5
Maicle's "changing your story" actually sounds pretty much like what I learned as the final step in codependency therapy. After you have gone through your grieving process and expressed the anger, pain, etc., that had been denied-- you figure out what the messages are that you've been sending yourself and learn to send yourself new ones. This takes some mental discipline, but it does work.
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Post by zoeygirl on May 16, 2010 16:14:42 GMT -5
First, I want to thank everyone who has shared their story in this thread. There are a lot of truly amazing people here. One question: What does "love the sinner, hate the sin" mean in non-religious terms? I've heard this quote many times, and I used to say it myself back in the day. I don't know how to explain it in non-religious terms since "sin" is innately a religious term, but I'll try. The fundies I used to know loved to use this one on homosexuals. What they supposedly meant was, "We love you, homosexual, but we hate the fact that you are engaging in homosexual sex." So they looked like good Christians because they didn't outright hate anybody, they just hated their sin. How this really played out in real life was quite different. This phrase just became an excuse to shun someone. It really meant, "We hate your sin, and we are going to cut you out of our lives until you change your ways. We are going to tell people we still love you, and yet we have a free pass to treat you with hatred, because we said that clever little phrase."
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Post by tapati on May 16, 2010 17:00:25 GMT -5
I think there is a difference between reframing your experience and the kind of magical thinking that is going around following the publication of "the secret."
I think reframing can help to counteract learned helplessness, but it is realistic, not pie in the sky. I think this is what maicde is referring to. It's an old therapy technique.
I, too, have a strong reaction to proponents of "the secret" and "the law of attraction" when they appear to blame the victim for not being "positive" enough. One of those people said I shouldn't talk about abuse "because you attract it."
Uh, ok, so let's leave all those women presently in abusive situations to suffer because of our own selfish interest in "not attracting" abuse.
BS.
Besides, I am not presently being abused--and that's the whole point of my story, in the end, that it was and is possible to escape it--but not just by "being positive." It requires action and work ALONG WITH the belief that things can be better.
(The following is something I wrote as a response to the suggestion that I stop talking about abuse.)
28 March 2008 @ 08:17 am
Pretty Happy Thoughts
Just think positive he said just forget all that negative stuff what a bringdown if you just think positive all good things will come into your life and I think will the memories of his fists recede like a wave to be replaced by pretty happy fairy dust will all women magically rise up and leave their abusers if I shut up and just think happy pretty thoughts and will their children magically forget the scenes of violence in their homes day after day or night by night as they lie huddled under their covers hands over ears wishing it would all go away and their daddy would love their mommy again or their mommy didn’t deserve it the stupid bitch but they are half mommy half daddy so they hate or fear part of themselves but it will all go away if I just shut up and think happy pretty thoughts of oceans and lakes and river streams and nature and shit like that or maybe just shit because that’s what violence against women and children is our subconscious shit manifest upon this earth in rivers of blood and landscapes of bruised flesh and sometimes a corpse or two even whole families murdered because some man couldn’t share his woman or kids or some woman went mad from abuse or having too many kids too fast too soon too much postpartum depression craziness from not thinking pretty happy thoughts while she carpooled and bottle fed and listened to the crying of her brood who she sacrificed all hope of being herself for and one day she snapped and thought they’d be better off free of her resentful presence and she meant to go with them but when it was all done she lie dazed and spent yes if I just think positive thoughts all these things will be automagically solved and world peace will break out and global warming will just chill or maybe chill too much are we ready for the ice age yet and what will we do when we run out of oil but I must think pretty happy thoughts and we’ll find new technologies while chanting Om or affirmations and our mental masturbation will sustain us in our time of need we need I need you need some peace and if I think happy thoughts then peace will come but I wonder how all these things will happen if we don’t name the problems if we don’t claim our solutions if we don’t step up and step out of this crazy paradigm if we don’t look at the shit at the steaming piles of shit we’ve made if we just pretend it smells like roses and live behind our new age poses will it just evaporate or will it penetrate?
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jtn
New Member
Posts: 11
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Post by jtn on May 16, 2010 17:31:42 GMT -5
I have spent my life as the family grey sheep in the religion world. I'm not exactly the black sheep, but I never drank the fundamentalist kool-aid. I have, at various times, been a project to bring into the fold, shun, shame, convert, etc. You name it, I'd had it happen to me.
I'm still the same person. Raised born again... family trended more fundamentalist. I've never been baptized (my choice). I've had letters from family members pleading with me to find God, Jesus, and church. My general reply has always been "I didn't know they were lost."
In all sincerety, the people who didn't stand by you and now shun you... I'd say screw them.
One of the biggest issues I've had with faith growing up is that most people who adhere to it, have never questioned it. They like to measure themselves by how many Boy Scout badges they get for God or something. They can't fit things outside their worldview into their lives.
For me, faith can only occur after truly and completely pondering the absence of it. I have found very few Christians who have ever really 'put themselves in other shoes.'
Looking back, I think I lost alot of my faith as a child when I started asking "What if there is no God?" "What if this is all there is?" "What is the purpose of life if there is nothing more?" "What is our responsibilty to ourselves and the world if there is no judgement and we really are alone?" My family and peers within Christianity told me such questions are silly and stupid. They never looked inward because these questions may require answers that are uncomfortable and impossible. It's easier to just think of God as the big "Scout Leader in the sky" who rewards us for good stuff and thus all bad stuff is caused by our own missteps. The idea that bad things happen because life just sucks occasionally challenges their worldview in ways beyond their programming.
I don't really know where I'm going with this, but your personal growth is probably well past whatever they will ever achieve. That doesn't fit into their world so you can't fit into their world.
At the end of the day, if you can sleep with your choices, then you've made the correct ones. If your friends don't stand by you, then they weren't your friends. At least now you know.
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Post by wlotus on May 16, 2010 19:12:05 GMT -5
Your post wasn't self-pitying or pitiful at all. It was a well-said criticism of the difference between those Christians' faith and behavior.
I am glad you got out, glad you got your children out, and glad things are getting better!
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