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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 10, 2010 12:04:34 GMT -5
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Post by stampinmama on Sept 10, 2010 12:35:29 GMT -5
It's one thing for the older children in any family to help out around the house, but I find the following really sad:
From as young as 11 the older Duggar girls have been responsible for ALL of the family’s laundry, cooking lunch (and not many years later dinner, too) and for numerous other tasks. With so many children the Duggars employ what they call the “buddy system” where an older child helps one or two little ones with their daily tasks like dressing, bed making etc. Today the oldest Duggar girls do nearly everything in the home including a large part of the homeschooling as well as the earliest music lessons—even organizing some of the youngest kids into a hand bell choir.
While that may seem admirable to many QF/P families, these girls have had their childhood stripped from them and have become surrogate mothers.
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 11, 2010 4:40:28 GMT -5
They have brought their children up to be content with their “buy used, save the difference” approach to material goods, while not skimping on what really matters: family time together.
I've got to disagree here. In the earlier days, they spent more time with the kids as a whole family, even if one-on-one time has to be scheduled far in advance. These days there's so much traveling and speakings and "tea with Michelle" and usurping MOPS meetings and all that I just don't think they really spend that much time with the kids anymore. They spend too much time patting themselves on the back over what a great job they think they're doing of raising the kids instead of giving credit where it's due - to the older girls.
The Duggars do not always understand things the way non-ATI members do. For example, they view dating as unhealthy leading to a diminished capacity to love your eventual spouse. In dating you “give away pieces of your heart.”
My daughter has a piece of my heart. So I guess this means I love her daddy less than I otherwise would. Maybe this "whole heart to the spouse" is why they don't love their children enough to actually parent them full-time. Yeah, I said it.
They believe rock and roll music and dancing are bad because they cause a person to “lose control of themselves” (as Josiah has explained on TV).
L-O-HelL. So is Christian rock bad too? Sorry, Jars of Clay, you're tools of the devil. And I wonder if they've ever tried ballet or ballroom dancing. We all know they haven't, but if they had, they'd know how in-control of your body you must be at all times. Believe me, I'm a ballet dancer and have taken ballroom, jazz, and flamenco, and will take more since I'm now working toward a dance degree. Dancing isn't "losing control of yourself."
They truly believe God provides.
This is why I don't donate anything to QF-families, to be perfectly honest. It's an insult to the people who give to have credit for their generosity given to god. The Duggars, in general, seem to give more credit to the people who give though.
Recognizing that it is actually God and others who are responsible for the achievements in my life
If you don't try, you're not going to succeed. Therefore each person has a hand in their own success and achievements. God doesn't put knowledge into someone's head. Studying and observing on one's own do.
This appears to be what the older girls do each day in giving up their own desires to serve their family.
What desires have the girls been allowed to have? They give up nothing because they have been allowed nothing.
One of the older girls memorably explained that they “accept” cousin Amy in spite of her penchant for attention seeking
Teacup calling the kettle black when the pots so clearly strive for attention.
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Tor
New Member
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Post by Tor on Sept 11, 2010 12:44:48 GMT -5
Jim-Bob’s self-control often seems cold and calculated—like if the cameras were off he’d explode.
I have seen this. There's something in the way he talks - like he scripts his own words. He sounds like a very bad actor a lot of time - like he's reciting off what he's saying, without any honesty or heart behind it, and if the cameras were gone, there would be a whole different side to his personality - but I was never sure if it was just my ears deceiving me. Since my family is a "the Duggars are the most amazing family in the history of the world" no one has ever agreed with me on it.
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jeb
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by jeb on Sept 11, 2010 14:15:54 GMT -5
ladygrace said: " They truly believe God provides.
This is why I don't donate anything to QF-families, to be perfectly honest. It's an insult to the people who give to have credit for their generosity given to god." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I always loved the story (and I think I may have told it here already but . . ) of the Muslim woman who lived next door to an atheist who, when he heard her praising Allah in her morning prayers, would shout out the window at her, "THERE IS NO GOD!".
One day her heard her explaining to Allah that she had no food to feed her children . . . could He please provide her with food for her children. So during the night he slipped off to the store and bought her a bunch of groceries and put them on the front porch for her to find in the morning.
Sure enough, when she came out to pray in the morning and found the groceries she began to exclaim her praises to Allah for providing for her and her children, the atheist shouted, "Allah didn't provide that food for you . . . I did. THERE IS NO GOD!". To which she replied. "Thank you Allah, thank you Allah for all of this food . . . and you even got the Devil to pay for it!!". ;D
John
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Post by jemand on Sept 11, 2010 15:03:17 GMT -5
ladygrace said: " They truly believe God provides. This is why I don't donate anything to QF-families, to be perfectly honest. It's an insult to the people who give to have credit for their generosity given to god." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I always loved the story (and I think I may have told it here already but . . ) of the Muslim woman who lived next door to an atheist who, when he heard her praising Allah in her morning prayers, would shout out the window at her, "THERE IS NO GOD!". One day her heard her explaining to Allah that she had no food to feed her children . . . could He please provide her with food for her children. So during the night he slipped off to the store and bought her a bunch of groceries and put them on the front porch for her to find in the morning. Sure enough, when she came out to pray in the morning and found the groceries she began to exclaim her praises to Allah for providing for her and her children, the atheist shouted, "Allah didn't provide that food for you . . . I did. THERE IS NO GOD!". To which she replied. "Thank you Allah, thank you Allah for all of this food . . . and you even got the Devil to pay for it!!". ;D John honestly, that *is* quite a cruel return to generosity, if you stop to think about it. Sure, the atheist might not be the perfect person, but by the end of the story, the believer pretty much has abandoned the moral high ground pretty precipitously herself. And... from personal experience and observation of how the standards for "militant" or "proselytizing" and "being loud" or whatever, is so biased towards the "religious as normal," it's not hard to see that the story is told as perception, but that in actual decibels, it is the believer who yells and the atheist who whispers a dissent. And I first heard the story with a Christian believer, which, because I am more familiar with that religious tradition, made even less sense personally. There are the injunctions by Jesus to feed the hungry, etc, plus the parable full of the one brother who said he would not obey, but then obeyed, being lauded as the one who was actually doing right, plus the idea that just calling someone *fool* much LESS "devil" was an offense that hurt your soul.... the story as commonly understood in a "haha loud atheist, you got it coming, Christians are awesome" just makes ZERO SENSE.
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Post by coleslaw on Sept 11, 2010 15:16:37 GMT -5
Is that the point of the story? What I got out of it was that actual evidence means zero to believers.
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 12, 2010 13:16:46 GMT -5
Is that the point of the story? What I got out of it was that actual evidence means zero to believers. Yup. It's that evidence means nothing. There are a few blogs I read, parents writing about their sick kids. A couple of the kids I've come to care about. The third, sure, I care about her getting better, but I started reading because she lived in the same small town I did until a few weeks ago. All three are Christian households. Of the first two, one mom isn't a QFer. She thanks those who give gifts to her and her children. The other is a QFer, and she's posted from time to time about needs her family has had, and readers have been very generous in filling those needs. She then praises god for providing. Sadly, several of her readers will comment with more praises for god providing, completely ignoring that it was humans who filled her house with a week's worth of groceries for nine people (including steak for one of the nights!), etc.. Both of these moms though question why god is making their kids suffer. The third one I have a bit of a hard time with. The dad writes the blog (not the problem), and he is a pastor at a local church. He constantly praises god for healing his daughter, despite the cancerous tumors she has being recurring. The work the doctors have done gets no credit. Just "god is good, god heals, wow, he's so good to us." I quote this part: "Who can know the mind of God? He is so much bigger, so much more powerful, so much more… gnarly.. than I can even fathom. That’s whose hands Daisy’s life is in. We deserve nothing from Him, yet receive so much. Wow…" All I can think is, "Your young daughter keeps getting cancerous tumors 'from god,' and human doctors are keeping her alive. What is you're usurping the plans of the very god who has 'plans' you claim to trust? If he doesn't heal her without human-intervention, is his plan not for her to 'go home'?" I don't understand the mindset. Even though I was once a very sick child expected to die and had trust in god to heal me, I stopped buying it because it didn't make sense anymore. If god gives the illness and human hands cure it, this is usurpation, is it not? How is surviving a testament to god's supposed goodness if god gave an illness and wasn't willing to cure it? Also, I just have to say that it's very sad that that little girl has been quotes as saying she's "only 1 times important and god is 10 billion times important." She's accepted being insignificant and not exactly mattering a whole lot, and has been praised for her wisdom. That was upsetting to read.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 12, 2010 17:09:44 GMT -5
Is that the point of the story? What I got out of it was that actual evidence means zero to believers. What the story communicates to me is two people with a complete lack of understanding of (or desire to understand) where the other is coming from, completely disrespecting one another. I don't think the story is funny in the least. The ideal of neighbors helping one another ought to have been a value that both actors in this story had in common. Instead, it becomes a point of division between them.
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Post by coleslaw on Sept 12, 2010 18:33:57 GMT -5
Is that the point of the story? What I got out of it was that actual evidence means zero to believers. What the story communicates to me is two people with a complete lack of understanding of (or desire to understand) where the other is coming from, completely disrespecting one another. I don't think the story is funny in the least. The ideal of neighbors helping one another ought to have been a value that both actors in this story had in common. Instead, it becomes a point of division between them. Only one of the neighbors in the story helped the other, so I don't know that the ideal of neighbors helping one another is one they had in common. But I agree with you that the story is not funny.
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Post by cherylannhannah on Sept 12, 2010 21:16:43 GMT -5
I kind of wonder how I would fare having my life scrutinized and graded by others? You know, I don't agree with all that they have done and some of the decisions they have made. My main objection with them is that they are trying to entice others into this way of life as being the only godly way to go. However, given the logistics of the size of their family, I would have to say that they are doing an admirable job on quite a few fronts and that my family wouldn't have scored as well as they did.
I guess I am uncomfortable with the whole idea of judging and scoring their life. The whole "judge not that ye be not judged" and the idea that the measurement you use to judge will also be used on you thing comes to mind. Really, is there anyone who is competent in every area of their life?
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 12, 2010 23:17:30 GMT -5
I kind of wonder how I would fare having my life scrutinized and graded by others? You know, I don't agree with all that they have done and some of the decisions they have made. My main objection with them is that they are trying to entice others into this way of life as being the only godly way to go. However, given the logistics of the size of their family, I would have to say that they are doing an admirable job on quite a few fronts and that my family wouldn't have scored as well as they did. I guess I am uncomfortable with the whole idea of judging and scoring their life. The whole "judge not that ye be not judged" and the idea that the measurement you use to judge will also be used on you thing comes to mind. Really, is there anyone who is competent in every area of their life? The Duggars, at least Jimbob and Jchelle, made the decision to put themselves in the spotlight, and with this comes scrutiny and judgement. I don't think they're so stupid that they didn't realize this could happen. They aren't some random bloggers posting for their family and friends that someone just happens to come on and obsess over. These are people who intentionally put it out there, even accepting a lot of money to do it. I don't doubt that they hope to convert some viewers. Can they really expect this to happen without someone critically thinking and considering? Well, actually they probably hope so.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 13, 2010 0:38:16 GMT -5
What the story communicates to me is two people with a complete lack of understanding of (or desire to understand) where the other is coming from, completely disrespecting one another. I don't think the story is funny in the least. The ideal of neighbors helping one another ought to have been a value that both actors in this story had in common. Instead, it becomes a point of division between them. Only one of the neighbors in the story helped the other, so I don't know that the ideal of neighbors helping one another is one they had in common. But I agree with you that the story is not funny. Coleslaw, what I mean is that most religions believe it is God's will for neighbors to help one another. Atheists also usually believe neighbors should help one another. This commonality should have brought them together, not divided them. The Muslim lady should have thanked her atheist neighbor and not spoken words of hate to him. The atheist should have understood that a religious person's belief in God need not include a belief that God always has to send help supernaturally and without human agency-- or indeed, that God would desire anything other in this situation, than that a neighbor would perform an act of kindness. Each had a very small view of the other person and a very judgmental view of the other person's beliefs.
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Post by cherylannhannah on Sept 13, 2010 1:49:20 GMT -5
The Duggars, at least Jimbob and Jchelle, made the decision to put themselves in the spotlight, and with this comes scrutiny and judgement. I don't think they're so stupid that they didn't realize this could happen. They aren't some random bloggers posting for their family and friends that someone just happens to come on and obsess over. These are people who intentionally put it out there, even accepting a lot of money to do it. I don't doubt that they hope to convert some viewers. Can they really expect this to happen without someone critically thinking and considering? Well, actually they probably hope so. I understand that this is inevitable given what they are doing. My concern is less for them and more for us. What does it do to us in our own soul and spirit when we take this approach? I'm guessing very little that is beneficial. This is not to say that there isn't a place for critical thinking.
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Post by calluna on Sept 13, 2010 8:46:39 GMT -5
Honestly it left me with a sour taste in my mouth. I do not agree with the Duggar's lifestyle, or what they believe is true godly living, and that they are associated with Vision Forum, Bill Gothard and other harmful ministries. But I really felt this article just went too far. It seemed like it was nit pick on the Duggar's article. Some of the stuff she nit picks about is really silly. Like the kids don't wear bicycle helmets. I grew up never wearing a bicycle helmet, and I grew up in a very loving and safe home. My mom was a safety freak actually. Hopewell was also very critical about Anna's desire to have a home birth. Not all patriacrial quiverful families desire homebirths. And homebirths are also done by women and families that aren't Christians, patriarchial, or relgious. Watch Riki Lake's Documentary called "The Business of Being Born". In the area that I live in (very artsy fartsy) homebirths, and birth center births are very popular. Granted, I did think it was a bit weird that Anna decided to have a home birth after she found out her perfered doctor wasn't going to be able to deliver. That did seem staged. Like that was their plan the whole time, but used the doctor for prenatals. I have had two homebirths. One was a hospital transfer because of failor to progress and having horrible back labor. My midwife thought that the epidural would help my body relax enough to dialate. And she was right! Not all homebirth proponents are as crazy as Vyckie's midwife was/is. If I ever have another child, homebirth would be my first choice, but I am not closed against going to the hospital if needed. And it disturbed me that hopewell, who is a Christian was so nitpicky about the Duggar's, who also claim to be Christians, "grey area" weaknesses. Not their false and dangerous teaching, which I do believe should be held up in the light. But We all are weak, and imperfect. If the article had concluded that no one can be of perfect character, or follow Bill Gothard's character traits perfectly, than maybe I could see where she was coming from. But she didn't do that. And she didn't write about the dangers of the quiverfull lifestlye. She just nitpicked on very, very, very grey areas, in my humble opinion. Of course the Duggars are following a dangerous and false teachings. And it bothers me, that they are on national television to be beheld by all. I think that is dangerous and asking for a lot of trouble. And it does open them to critism. But as women that want their voice to be heard about the dangerous teachings, this article, I am afriad will only close the minds of those who are on the fence. Just too many stupid silly grey areas that most parents in America, Patriarcial or not, have weaknesses in. I have never seen or heard of a perfect parent. And this isn't said in defense of the Duggars. THis is said in defense of all mothers out there. As a mother, I found this article to be defeating to *me*. I have had a homebirth, and that makes me a quack? I let my kids ride their bicyles without helmets, that makes me oblivious to things around me? The government has silly rules with building a home. My Inlaws went through this. They built a set of stairs, with 1/4 of an inch too short for the head room for going down in the basement. They had to tare everything apart, and redo it, because of a stupid 1/4 of an inch. So that makes my inlaws nutty, becaue they were upset that they had to conform to ridiculious goverment regulatations? I just found the latest piece by hopewell is distracting from the *real* issues. Those that are on the fence about these issues, (especially those that are *in* the movement, but questioning their teachings) will read it, get offended, and my fear is that they will ditch their "questionings", and won't see the dangers of the QF Patriarcy lifestyle for what it really is. They will only see a bunch of angry, bitter people who are nit picking the small stuff. And I came out of this lifestyle myself. I *write* about this lifestyle on my blog. My blog is dedicated to these issues. I have a couple of commenters on my blog that are riding the fence about these issues. If they were to come and read a piece like this by a woman that is a Christian, it will scare them to pieces, and I am afraid that they will run away, and cause them to miss the legitiment facts. The Quiverful, patriarchial, spiritual abusive groups are a very touchy subject, and I think pure objectiviy, pointing out the real facts and issues is what is needed. Sharing *personal* stories is one of the things I appreciate about NLQ. But if a piece, written about other people, or ministries, it would be a good idea to keep objective to the facts, not to devulge into our own personal opinions about very grey areas, that they believe makes the Duggars quacky is going too far. I know that when I was on the fence myself, I would become very defensive over the Duggars if I had seen a piece written like this, and would end up in a morass of confusion. I will probably get a lot of responses to this that don't agree with me, and that's fine. You don't have to agree with me. But I am giving giving another point of view to think about. I write about these issues on my blog at www.denimjumpers2bluejeans.wordpress.com
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Post by hopewell on Sept 13, 2010 9:27:42 GMT -5
Not really sure yet how to reply to some of this...........MY point was to compare the Duggars to the 49 operation character qualities taught by Bill Gothard's ATI. That's it, really.
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Post by synesthesia on Sept 13, 2010 11:52:29 GMT -5
Sadly, several of her readers will comment with more praises for god providing, completely ignoring that it was humans who filled her house with a week's worth of groceries for nine people (including steak for one of the nights!), etc.. Both of these moms though question why god is making their kids suffer.
[/quote]
Hmm. That reminds me of a documentary I saw about North Korea in which this doctor came and dig surgery on people's eyes and everyone went to a picture of the dictator in charge and thanked him profusely for giving them sight.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 13, 2010 12:29:56 GMT -5
Not really sure yet how to reply to some of this...........MY point was to compare the Duggars to the 49 operation character qualities taught by Bill Gothard's ATI. That's it, really. I started to respond to this, Hopewell ~ and after writing, decided the charge of "Duggar Bashing" needed to be addressed on the blog: nolongerquivering.com/2010/09/13/duggar-bashing/
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maicde
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by maicde on Sept 13, 2010 15:04:38 GMT -5
I kind of wonder how I would fare having my life scrutinized and graded by others? You know, I don't agree with all that they have done and some of the decisions they have made. My main objection with them is that they are trying to entice others into this way of life as being the only godly way to go. However, given the logistics of the size of their family, I would have to say that they are doing an admirable job on quite a few fronts and that my family wouldn't have scored as well as they did. I guess I am uncomfortable with the whole idea of judging and scoring their life. The whole "judge not that ye be not judged" and the idea that the measurement you use to judge will also be used on you thing comes to mind. Really, is there anyone who is competent in every area of their life? I can understand your not wanting to be scrutinized or put in the limelight in order to be scrutinized and judged (none of us would like it I would think), yet they have put themselves in that position. Furthermore, the Duggars seem to have no problem judging other families, including women who work outside the home by choice or need and they teach their children to parrot the same. I think that's what bothers me the most. When you hear their young kids spouting off the same judgmental rhetoric that Jim Bob and Michelle routinely spout off, then that's when I lost all sympathy for them....if they wish to dish it out, then other people are going to dish it back.
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Sept 13, 2010 15:08:13 GMT -5
Not really sure yet how to reply to some of this...........MY point was to compare the Duggars to the 49 operation character qualities taught by Bill Gothard's ATI. That's it, really. Well, that's what it appeared you were doing, Hopewell, but I guess people interpret things in different ways and through their own filters. Personally, I think the piece written about the Duggars and the 49 character qualities was on the lenient and generous side. Trust me, Hopewell, the same people who are saying that the Duggars were judged or scrutinized unfairly would have NO problem ripping into others who think differently then them, who don't fit their mold (and that includes other Christians). I am quite certain of that. Like I've said before, I posted for over 10+ years on a few large family boards until it got to the point where all the normal women stopped posting and all that was left were think-alike ultra-right fundie clones who wouldn't hesitate to rip you to shreds and serve you up for dinner on silver platter. The finishing touch was the signing off the nasty post with "Blessings" or "God bless you." No sympathy from me WHATSOEVER to those who think the Duggars are perfect and no one should dare touch sacred ground by writing about them.
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Sept 13, 2010 15:54:13 GMT -5
Honestly it left me with a sour taste in my mouth. I do not agree with the Duggar's lifestyle, or what they believe is true godly living, and that they are associated with Vision Forum, Bill Gothard and other harmful ministries. But I really felt this article just went too far. It seemed like it was nit pick on the Duggar's article. Some of the stuff she nit picks about is really silly. Like the kids don't wear bicycle helmets. I grew up never wearing a bicycle helmet, and I grew up in a very loving and safe home. My mom was a safety freak actually. Hopewell was also very critical about Anna's desire to have a home birth. Not all patriacrial quiverful families desire homebirths. And homebirths are also done by women and families that aren't Christians, patriarchial, or relgious. Watch Riki Lake's Documentary called "The Business of Being Born". In the area that I live in (very artsy fartsy) homebirths, and birth center births are very popular. Granted, I did think it was a bit weird that Anna decided to have a home birth after she found out her perfered doctor wasn't going to be able to deliver. That did seem staged. Like that was their plan the whole time, but used the doctor for prenatals. I have had two homebirths. One was a hospital transfer because of failor to progress and having horrible back labor. My midwife thought that the epidural would help my body relax enough to dialate. And she was right! Not all homebirth proponents are as crazy as Vyckie's midwife was/is. If I ever have another child, homebirth would be my first choice, but I am not closed against going to the hospital if needed. And it disturbed me that hopewell, who is a Christian was so nitpicky about the Duggar's, who also claim to be Christians, "grey area" weaknesses. Not their false and dangerous teaching, which I do believe should be held up in the light. But We all are weak, and imperfect. If the article had concluded that no one can be of perfect character, or follow Bill Gothard's character traits perfectly, than maybe I could see where she was coming from. But she didn't do that. And she didn't write about the dangers of the quiverfull lifestlye. She just nitpicked on very, very, very grey areas, in my humble opinion. Of course the Duggars are following a dangerous and false teachings. And it bothers me, that they are on national television to be beheld by all. I think that is dangerous and asking for a lot of trouble. And it does open them to critism. But as women that want their voice to be heard about the dangerous teachings, this article, I am afriad will only close the minds of those who are on the fence. Just too many stupid silly grey areas that most parents in America, Patriarcial or not, have weaknesses in. I have never seen or heard of a perfect parent. And this isn't said in defense of the Duggars. THis is said in defense of all mothers out there. As a mother, I found this article to be defeating to *me*. I have had a homebirth, and that makes me a quack? I let my kids ride their bicyles without helmets, that makes me oblivious to things around me? The government has silly rules with building a home. My Inlaws went through this. They built a set of stairs, with 1/4 of an inch too short for the head room for going down in the basement. They had to tare everything apart, and redo it, because of a stupid 1/4 of an inch. So that makes my inlaws nutty, becaue they were upset that they had to conform to ridiculious goverment regulatations? I just found the latest piece by hopewell is distracting from the *real* issues. Those that are on the fence about these issues, (especially those that are *in* the movement, but questioning their teachings) will read it, get offended, and my fear is that they will ditch their "questionings", and won't see the dangers of the QF Patriarcy lifestyle for what it really is. They will only see a bunch of angry, bitter people who are nit picking the small stuff. And I came out of this lifestyle myself. I *write* about this lifestyle on my blog. My blog is dedicated to these issues. I have a couple of commenters on my blog that are riding the fence about these issues. If they were to come and read a piece like this by a woman that is a Christian, it will scare them to pieces, and I am afraid that they will run away, and cause them to miss the legitiment facts. The Quiverful, patriarchial, spiritual abusive groups are a very touchy subject, and I think pure objectiviy, pointing out the real facts and issues is what is needed. Sharing *personal* stories is one of the things I appreciate about NLQ. But if a piece, written about other people, or ministries, it would be a good idea to keep objective to the facts, not to devulge into our own personal opinions about very grey areas, that they believe makes the Duggars quacky is going too far. I know that when I was on the fence myself, I would become very defensive over the Duggars if I had seen a piece written like this, and would end up in a morass of confusion. I will probably get a lot of responses to this that don't agree with me, and that's fine. You don't have to agree with me. But I am giving giving another point of view to think about. I write about these issues on my blog at www.denimjumpers2bluejeans.wordpress.com Wearing a bicycle helmet is now "silly" and your mother was a safety freak? Regardless of what your mother was/is, the fact is that when a little child's head (or an adult's head for that matter) goes "clonk" on the cement or ground and it cracks open, this is a very serious thing leading to brain injury, trauma, including long-term, life-long consequences or even death. Of course, the first thing that would occur is a world-wide chain prayer event, totally ignoring that the whole tragedy could have been avoided if the child was wearing a safety helmet. If bicycle helmets are not necessary for a child's safety, then why are car seats necessary? What's the probability of getting into a bike accident vs. a car accident? People don't get into car accidents every day, in fact, some never get into a life-threatening accident, while some do once or twice in their whole life, yet children fall off of bikes and get hurt (sometimes fatally) every day. Just about every piece of baby/child equipment has a restraining belt, yet what's the probability that the child is going to fall out and critically injure him/herself? Bike helmets are not that expensive and considering that the goal is to prevent a head/brain injury, I consider it a piece of equipment that is necessary to avoid horrific tragedies. But since it's the Duggars that are negligent, then we're just supposed to ignore common sense. See what I'm talking about? Am I understanding you to say that women are on the fence about leaving restrictive, controlling, abusive religious systems and home environments and if they read this piece they will suddenly chicken out because they will feel "attacked"? Sorry, but people will leave when they are good and ready and not a moment sooner. No one can make anyone do anything unless a gun is being held to their head in which case they are under duress. As far as you not ever seeing a perfect parent, this is true. None of us are because none of us are perfect beings. On the other hand, I do believe that the Vision Forum's choice of Michelle Duggar as the "mother of the year" was quite clear in saying that she is darn near perfect as far as a mother/parent goes. So, I do believe that she is being touted as the "perfect mother", while in all essence she doesn't do much actual "mothering" unless mothering now means incubating and delivering a baby. If the latter is the case, then indeed Michelle is the winner! A woman isn't going to be "scared to pieces" because she reads an article on NLQ, she will be scared to pieces when her husband beats the living sh*t out of her and her kids, when the kids run away from home because they can't take what is happening anymore, or one of them tries to commit suicide, or things take a turn for the worse in other ways. This "blame" left at Hopewell's feet for writing this article is the old "guilt" card trick. It's a means to shut someone up. P.S. - as far as homebirths, birth away! As long as you are comfortable with what is happening, then more power to you! It is your life, your body, your baby. Who said that you're a quack? That's your own internal filtering speaking and interpreting what Hopewell said as a criticism against you or other homebirthers. As far as your in-laws and the 1/4" head room differential clearance building code, your in-laws are not immune to building codes and safety standards. This is not about the "dreaded government", it's your own local building codes. I know it's "cool" in fundie circles to blame everything on "the government" and paint this big picture of how the government is trying to do this or that to you; there always has to be some scapegoat to blame for all that is wrong. It's the tie that binds. They always want to blame the "stink" on some outside force(s) totally ignoring that the "stink" is coming from within.
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Post by calluna on Sept 13, 2010 19:12:07 GMT -5
Not really sure yet how to reply to some of this...........MY point was to compare the Duggars to the 49 operation character qualities taught by Bill Gothard's ATI. That's it, really. Hopewell, I am not attacking you personally, or your motives for writing about the Duggars. But I am just giving the perspective, that it came across as nit picking them on areas that any "normal" person has problems with. I really didn't get out of the article that you were trying to expose their lifestyle by the teachings that they adhere to, but that you were just picking on some grey areas. I know you are passionate about helping women and others see what this type of Christianity dose to others, and that is admirable. I almost ran away from home because I couldn't live up to these "Christian Standards" But I do know that I make mistakes as a mother every day of my life. When people point out grey area issues, I go through a mental check list in my head, and think, "Gosh, I am a bad mother because I did this or that". I am still healing from my "fundy" days. I am still trying to find the correct balance, and it isn't easy. I just didn't see the character qualities being compared to the false teachings. And you didn't explain that was your intentions in the article. And I know as a Christian, I HATE when other Christians imply to me what a horrible job I am doing as a mother. Either I go too soft on them. Or I am too hard. Or I don't adhere to this or that. *I* just felt it was fundamentalism swinging on the pendulum to the other extreme.
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Post by nikita on Sept 13, 2010 19:44:25 GMT -5
I wasn't particularly thrilled with this article either, and was thinking about how to respond to it when Vyckie did so perfectly in her own article. I did think that it seemed a little like an attack piece on areas in which we all can come up short, because the list itself is so completely wrongheaded and unattainable. I am no fan by any means of the Duggars, and I think they are promoting a lifestyle that is harmful to those who attempt to follow them in it, but I don't doubt that they are very sincere in their beliefs and that they do, in their own way, love their own children. They're trying. They are really really wrong, but they are trying.
The idea that anyone can measure up to those forty-nine 'perfect' character qualities really does make me angry. That kind of impossible pressure for perfection at all times is bound to end in failure and misery and it's hard to watch good people try so hard to severely suppress and extinguish all that makes them human. Far from mocking someone or some family for being unable to achieve this, I agree that it is more important to point out that even the best have no hope of achieving this, no matter how much they would hope to do so. This legalistic worldview is truly unsustainable because we are human and individuals and we simply were not meant to be judged on such a scale, as though by the gift of salvation we had become as gods and were now to act accordingly or else.
This list is set up perfectly to result in perfect failure. And I think pointing this fact out by using the Duggars as examples of why it's wrong is a good thing, as long as we are not actually condemning the Duggars or any one else for coming up short on any of it because that criticism would apply to anyone who is breathing on planet earth.
Thank you Vyckie for putting it all in perspective and rounding out the intent and impact of the article, and thank you Hopewell for showing in such stark terms the hopelessness of measuring any one up against Gothard's forty-nine character commandments. I momentarily wished that when he dies he is presented with this list at the gates of heaven and treated to an evaluation on how well he stood up to the rigors of his own commandments, but I wouldn't wish that upon anyone, not even him. And my God, at least, is more merciful than Gothard is.
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Post by calluna on Sept 13, 2010 22:25:34 GMT -5
I am not saying that there isn't a place for bicycle helmets, nor is there not a danger in not wearing one.
I rode horses and yes, my mother *forced* me to wear a helmet, when other mothers didn't seem to care that their child didn't want to wear one. I fell of horses plenty of times, and hit my head, and was greatful for the helmet.
Bicycles are smaller fall to the ground than a horse, and I have fallen off of them too, and usually land on my hands and knees.
Should we start wearing helmets in the winter time too, so if we should happen to slip and fall on the ice, we should god forbid crack our heads open?
Or should we make kids wear helmets when they are playing out in the neighborhood streets, and running races or playing baseball, should they trip and fall and hit their heads?
Or should we not wear helmets when we ride in cars, because we could get a concussion if we are in an accident?
My point is, that just because Michelle doesn't make them wear a helmet doesn't make her negligent. There are waaaay bigger issues than bicycle issues that is questionable to her negligence.
Such as, not taking care of the toddlers, and letting her older daughters do most of the work. Neglecting her younger child's need for "mommy" at this critical stage, and neglecting her older daughter's needs to be free of that kind of heavy responsiblity
That just speaks of total unconcern of others feelings. I have one girl commenting on my blog that is very confused, and she is really struggling with the facts that she has been shown, and the twisting of scripture that she is being shown by others. She puts on a "front" of accepting patriarchy, but I know she is torn up on the inside.
It would behoove, those of us who escaped to not critisize those on the fence and be gentle and kind with them. And yes, I would of left a lot sooner if I had found resources that were gentle and concerned about the people still caught up in these systems instead of berating them.
And I don't disagree with you there about Michelle Duggar being the "perfect" mother of the year. I watched the ceremony on Vision forum and found several things in there disturbing and disgusting.
Not all patriarchal men beat their wives. Not all children run away, and not all mothers try to commit suicide because of these teachings. And again, I have had experience with these things myself. *I* almost ran away from home because I couldn't commit suicide because I thought I would end up in Hell. But I could run away and abandoned my children and husband so they wouldn't have to put up with me.
But a lot of people in these movements seem smugly satisfied with how they are living.
You aren't going to get them to see your point of view by writing a bunch of subjective rants. It is best to stick to the facts.
This isn't to down play those hurt in the movement (again, I am speaking from personal experience) But it was the false teachings that led me to become so desperate.
And hearing things like, "You're brain washed", or "Your crazy", or "Your self-righteous" only made me more resolved to continue in the craziness.
If someone had sat down, and logically explained to me, why these teaching were wrong, harmful, and toxic, I would be a bit more willing to listen, question, and deal with it.
And finally someone DID sit me down and explain to me logically why these teachings were false and dangerous. And they didn't call me brain washed. They didn't nit pick on my dress style. They didn't nit pick on how I related to my children. They didn't nit pick on how utterly ridiculous I looked to the normal outside world.
And it wasn't until I found freedom, that I could look back and see that I was brain washed, that I was weird in my dress style, and I related to my children badly, and I looked very weird to the outside world.
But they took me in where I was at, and gently explained the fallacies of this system.
Listen, I am not laying the blame at Hopewell's feet. I am not pulling and old guilt card trick. I am writing out my own thoughts, feelings, and opinions, about this article. It is *NOT* meant to shut her up. It was meant to show that my perspective on the article wasn't a positive one, and I explained why.
In essence you are guilting me that I am telling her to shut up. I never told her to shut up. You're implying that is what I am telling her to do that, is unfair.
It's called discussion and reasoning. Hopewell wrote the article, and just like the Duggars, she opened herself up to criticism by publicly posting it on an open forum. I am not attacking Hopwell's character, her dress styles, the way she parents, etc. I am trying point out the flaws that *I* saw in her piece.
I don't blame everything on the government. I am thankful for many things that our government provides for us. And here where I live, we have hurricanes. The government heightened their standards of building after Hurricane Andrew, and I am grateful for that.
But there are some idiotic things the government does do, that just doesn't make sense. So if someone writes out their frustrations about it, it makes them a conspiracy nut?
And I agree there is a lot of stink coming within these movements. Not disagreeing with you one bit.
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Post by calluna on Sept 13, 2010 22:49:55 GMT -5
Thanks Vyckie for that recap on Hopewell's post. I guess that is what I found disturbing me Hopewell's post originally.
If she had prefaced or concluded with somewhat of what you said, than it would of made more sense to make a report card like that.
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