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Post by chbernat on Sept 14, 2010 7:27:32 GMT -5
Vyckie~
Well written, and well said.
Thanks for the mention of the older daughters bearing the load. This is something that is so close to my heart.
Here is one thing that I find particularly oh, I suppose, a bit "feather ruffling" is the fact that Quiverfull families, ESPECIALLY the QF royalty, depend so heavily on the aid of others in addition to their own children, to help them promote this unrealistic ideal.
If it weren't for the help of JimBob's mom, who does every last stitch of laundry in their home, the family would literally be swamped in a mountain of clothes. According to some of the latest episodes on TLC, Grandma Duggar is there every day, managing the assembly line of industrial sized washing machines. (and that's another thing, what normal QF family can afford those?!)
They also rely on the help of their friends. When they moved from Little Rock to Springdale, they had people show up to help them move and Michelle admitted that they should have been working on it (but in the back of her mind, she knew that they would find the help because of who they are). Family friends come over and help to care for the little ones while the older ones are in their classroom upstairs.
I don't know, I guess its a hard pill for me to swallow and here's why:
I grew up in this Movement, and it was shoved down our throats at an early age that we would have multiple children and homeschool- "the next generation."
Since that time, for obvious reasons, things have changed. But when I first married, I WAS HEADED DOWN THIS PATH (God worked a miracle at opening our eyes!!). What frusterated me more than anything was that there was this unspoken expectation that my mom, who had been a leader and purveyor of The Movement, would help me. Recognizing how hard it had been in the early years of The Movement, that now that her daughter lived in the same area, she would help teach, clean, and cook. She never even came over...I even begged and pleaded for her to come and help me and when she did, she acted as though it was a complete drugery. She was free from the standards that she shoved down my throat and lived and she wasn't about to be put through it again.
The irony is that every Daughter of The Movement (many of whom are still very dear friends) have voiced the same thing to me. They got married, had babies, began to homeschool. Hoping mom would come and help.
But she never came.
So we put our kids in public school because we knew that we weren't about to live the hell that our mom's had subjected us to.
So my point is just that in my experience, most grandma's don't want this for themselves anymore. They are tired and their thinking is that if I could do it on my own, then so can she.
So this whole Grandma Duggar thing?
Its not realistic.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 14, 2010 7:46:50 GMT -5
Wow. I guess I should not be surprised that your mother wouldn't help you with your own children, Chandra. But I am. No, not surprised. Shocked and disgusted. Yet again.
I have already admitted that I am a very bad person, so it should come as no surprise that calluna's pleas for everyone to be less harsh in our statements about the Duggar's don't move me much. Life is hard. Get used to it.
Whether or not the open opinions of disapproval move moms in The Movement to stop and reconsider their lives or not is to me a moot point. Far more important to me is that the daughters of such homes feel validated and supported by what they read here.
But then as a mom ostracized by Movement home schooler for at least keeping my head on somewhat straight, it's understandable that sparing the feelings of those moms is not high on my last. In my experience, they don't have any ethical concerns about hurting the feelings of people outside the Movement...
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Post by cherylannhannah on Sept 14, 2010 8:30:27 GMT -5
So my point is just that in my experience, most grandma's don't want this for themselves anymore. They are tired and their thinking is that if I could do it on my own, then so can she. So this whole Grandma Duggar thing? Its not realistic. I'm one of those grandma's. I still have seven of my twelve children living at home and my youngest is five and is starting kindergarten today. My sixth grandchild is on the way. I've told my kids who have children now that I don't mind babysitting ONCE IN A WHILE, but I love my grandkids and want to keep it that way! The fact is that when you have a large family and still have little kids when the grandbabies start coming, you get kinda burnt out after a while and you want to do something else and explore other things out there when your kids are grown, not do it all over again. And if you are feeling burnt out, you also start to wonder why you would want to do this to your kids? I have to wonder if Grandma Duggar is delighted with the news of yet another baby given the extra laundry it means she'll be doing. I also have to wonder if she would secretly like to quit but can't do it in the face of all the publicity.
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Post by chbernat on Sept 14, 2010 9:48:56 GMT -5
CherylAnnHannah
At least you're honest about it! And something tells me that you are not so concerned/consumed with your childrens CHOICE OF LIFESTYLE/BELIEF SYSTEM as you are that you understand your own limitations.
You also have a large family. For some reason, its really bizarre, the families from our Movement here in MO were SMALL. I only have one brother. Most of my girlfriends from the movement only have a couple of siblings.
So when you have 6-7 kids, totally. You HAVE to limit yourself. I get it.
And its not the fact that you need to limit your time with your grandkids that bothers me.
Its the fact that my mom expected/spiritualized/guilt-tripped/brainwashed me into believing that I would endure the wrath of God should I NOT HOMESCHOOL my babies.
So, I went forward, expecting that this religion that my mom subscribed to, and wanted me to subscribe to, would be accomplished in part through her help. Because its NOT easy, and as a daughter of The Movement, I knew what I was going into and it was d-e-p-r-e-s-s-i-n-g.
In the end it was so much better for me because my eyes were opened and now I am free from it.
I was just sayin' that if you're going to talk the talk to your girls (i.e. shoving your intolerance down their throats) then at least be prepared to walk the walk with them.
But hats off to you because you recognize the need for healthy boundaries! I am all about that!
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Post by hopewell on Sept 14, 2010 10:14:37 GMT -5
Since that time, for obvious reasons, things have changed. But when I first married, I WAS HEADED DOWN THIS PATH (God worked a miracle at opening our eyes!!). What frusterated me more than anything was that there was this unspoken expectation that my mom, who had been a leader and purveyor of The Movement, would help me. Recognizing how hard it had been in the early years of The Movement, that now that her daughter lived in the same area, she would help teach, clean, and cook. She never even came over...I even begged and pleaded for her to come and help me and when she did, she acted as though it was a complete drugery. She was free from the standards that she shoved down my throat and lived and she wasn't about to be put through it again. The irony is that every Daughter of The Movement (many of whom are still very dear friends) have voiced the same thing to me. They got married, had babies, began to homeschool. Hoping mom would come and help. But she never came.
So we put our kids in public school because we knew that we weren't about to live the hell that our mom's had subjected us to.
So my point is just that in my experience, most grandma's don't want this for themselves anymore. They are tired and their thinking is that if I could do it on my own, then so can she.
So this whole Grandma Duggar thing?
Its not realistic.
It has long been speculated [TWOP somewhere in the early discussions] that Grandma wants MONEY. Her husband could earn it, but not keep it. It's my understanding that Grandma lives with them now. She may take "days off" and go to her daughter's house but I think she's mostly with the family. And, now that Michelle has to be a full-time Mom to Josie, someone has to ride herd on the choas of all those little boys while the girls help the "middle" kids with school and take care of the little girls. Grandma is also, IMHO, the "adult" required in the home when, say, Jeremiah is left as the oldest kid at home! Now about your Mom. Many grandmas are like that--"I survived it, you can too" or "I'm done." I think that's true across the spectrum of belief. Even with your help, and that of your siblings, I think it's safe to say ANY Mom of many is burnt out after the nest is empty! Glad that God worked a miracle and showed you another way to live-- hopefully your family is smaller! Thanks for your comments.
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flah
New Member
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Post by flah on Sept 14, 2010 11:06:39 GMT -5
From the posting: "When we see the long, exhausting, impossible list ~ it becomes clear and undeniable that NO-ONE, no family ~ is going to measure up. "
My dears, that's the point of religion. How can they possibly hope to sell you the cure if they don't convince you you're sick to begin with?
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 14, 2010 11:10:34 GMT -5
Chandra ~ I understand what you're saying here ~ As a QF mom, I remember having conversations with other Moms of Many (and, of course, the only way that we could even have a chance to talk was if our older daughters were taking care of the kids for us while we visited) ~ we would talk about all the responsibility our daughters were carrying and often we would speculate about whether the girls would get burned out on taking care of babies and not want any of their own. Well ~ we would reassure ourselves ~ and our daughters ~ by saying that the way extended family works (and this, of course, is the biblical way) is that everyone helps each other so a woman doesn't have to do it all herself. I remember telling Angel, when I was laid up in bed after another difficult pregnancy/delivery and she was there helping out with the baby and little ones ~ that when she had her babies, we'd all be there ~ she'd be surrounded by younger sisters who would wait on her hand and foot, take care of her little ones, homeschool, cook, clean ~ and her younger brothers would be doing all her yard work, fixing her car, painting her house, whatever needed doing ~ she'd be the pampered queen with nothing to do but love and nurture her newborn. It seemed like a really awesome set up ~ and I honestly could picture it happening. So I can understand why you would have the expectation that when it was your turn to do the baby thing ~ you'd have help from your family. Your disappointment is justified ~ esp. if this QF ideal of "extended family" is what you were taught was to be the expected norm for biblical families. I, like Cheryl, am so burned out on the whole baby business ~ that the thought of becoming a grandma fills me with dread and I honestly hope it'll be a while yet, because ~ I still do have that ideal in my mind ~ and having been in the position of new-mommyhood so many times ~ and being so, so grateful for the help and support that I received ~ knowing that without my older children's help, the hell of it would've been a thousand times worse ~ I know that when it comes time ~ if there's any way that I can be there ~ I will be the most helpful grandma that I possibly can ~ and I will expect my children to be there helping out too ~ not as slaves, but as family/siblings/friends. For all the effort I put into producing a large family ~ even though I no longer believe the QF philosophy ~ I'm still hoping to reap some of the promised extended-family benefits for my children. I dread the thought that any of my children would have to go through a major life circumstance such as childbirth, hospitalization ~ even birthdays, etc. ~ alone or unsupported. ((((Hugs, Chandra))))) ~ I'm so sorry your mother wasn't there for you when you thought she would be.
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Post by calluna on Sept 14, 2010 11:35:22 GMT -5
I know life is hard, and that's why I try to be kind to people that are imperfect.
Everyone blames me for loaded lanugage, yet you say I "plea" for everyone to be kind to the Duggars.
That wasn't my intentions. I was bringing to the table a different perspective.
But it seem obvious that just because I had a different perspective than the majority of ya'll, that you think I am am a sympathizer of the movement.
I do not sympathize with the movement. I sympathize with those who feel trapped and want out. Daugthers and Mothers.
I am sorry you feel like being compassionate for those who have conflicting feelings about this subject.... mothers and daughters and, *shock* some *men* is a moot point.
Vykie asked me to write for NLQ. I told her that I had reservations and why. I don't think I would be welcomed to share my story here.
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Post by nikita on Sept 14, 2010 12:28:14 GMT -5
I know life is hard, and that's why I try to be kind to people that are imperfect. Everyone blames me for loaded lanugage, yet you say I "plea" for everyone to be kind to the Duggars. That wasn't my intentions. I was bringing to the table a different perspective. But it seem obvious that just because I had a different perspective than the majority of ya'll, that you think I am am a sympathizer of the movement. I do not sympathize with the movement. I sympathize with those who feel trapped and want out. Daugthers and Mothers. I am sorry you feel like being compassionate for those who have conflicting feelings about this subject.... mothers and daughters and, *shock* some *men* is a moot point. Vykie asked me to write for NLQ. I told her that I had reservations and why. I don't think I would be welcomed to share my story here. I understand where you're coming from -- it is my perspective as well. My intentions at NLQ are to be welcoming and supportive to women (and men if they show up) who are questioning and looking for alternatives to the lives they have been leading and the bill of goods they have been sold, and to offer them support as they work through what this kind of monumental life change means for them. Everyone here is in a different place in their lives, some firmly out of the QF/P/cultic movements and others never in it in the first place. There are those who remain conflicted about it all. And there are daughters (and perhaps sons) who have been damaged and are angry by their involuntary subjection to it. We are all working out our lives and how we think and feel about all of this from different perspectives, and some need to feel their anger and express it and others are not in that place yet or have moved past it to something else. We all react differently to these articles. But whoever we are and wherever we've come from and wherever we are now, I hope that we will remain aware that there are those coming to this place who are just beginning to work things out in their minds and hearts and that we will always be gentle and welcoming to them. However angry we are with the Royalty of these movements -- like the Duggars -- there are many hurting people out there who may just be starting to wonder about the choices they have made or which have been pressed upon them. Everyone needs to feel free to express their point of view, even if it's an angry one, in the forums. For the most part I think we do a great job of balancing it all out. I hope we can always remain approachable. A refuge. A place of gentle acceptance where questions can be asked and answered and emotional support given where needed. There's a difference between the justifiable anger pointed at the people who promote these destructive lifestyles and a harsh judgmental mocking attitude presented to any followers who wander in.
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Post by nikita on Sept 14, 2010 12:38:39 GMT -5
I don't know your story, but I trust Vyckie's judgment. There are many different stories -- where one person's experience and perspective might not touch someone, another's might be exactly the thing they needed to hear. I don't think you need to fit some particular mold to share your story here -- you may find that you have more in common with less vociferous posters than you realize. Just a thought.
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Post by chbernat on Sept 14, 2010 13:27:19 GMT -5
Vyckie~ Thanks for the (HUGS). Right back at ya! Like I said I totally get that as a grandma you just are DONE. Its time for other things in life. And honestly, I will probably BE one of "those" grandmas! Its just hard for me personally, because when I chose to recognize my own limitations, and place my children in a great public school district, I was the brunt of my mom's judgement. And she hadn't been there to help. My husband and I both say that we hope that we are the kind of parents/grandparents that will be there for our adult children when they need or ask for our help (within our natural boundaries of course)...not spurn our flesh and blood because they choose a different lifestyle or system of belief. And I am really not trying to be a wimp. I just think that Grandma Duggar helping isn't realistic. Because according to all of you lovely Grandma's here...ITS NOT! ha! Someone stated that they didn't want to share their story here on NLQ...not sure who, but if they are reading, I would encourage you to share it anyway. Please don't think you aren't welcomed.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 14, 2010 14:12:32 GMT -5
Calluna said: It would behoove, those of us who escaped to not critisize those on the fence and be gentle and kind with them. And yes, I would of left a lot sooner if I had found resources that were gentle and concerned about the people still caught up in these systems instead of berating them.I think Nikita is making a good point-- the anger that is being expressed is towards the Duggars as the Royalty, the poster family, of this movement. Not towards every QF family that is struggling along and trying to hide from themselves the fact that it just isn't working for them the way the Duggars seem to be sailing through it. Perhaps what needs to be communicated on the blog is that the Duggars are using the mass media to actively promote this lifestyle, and some of what they are saying, when you look at how they actually live, is false and deceptive advertisting. Just like when a fast-food company shows you a TV image of their carefully photoshopped hamburger with its perfect slice of red tomato and its lettuce with the little bead of dew standing on the edge. The burger you get in the store doesn't look anything like that. And when an image is presented via media that doesn't match reality, the truth needs to be told. Hopewell is trying to tell the truth about the difference between what the Duggars promote and what their actual lives really look like. This is not about "let's judge the Duggars and find them wanting," which is what has happened to so many of us that when something even sounds like that towards someone else, it gives us a bad taste in our mouths. But this is about "Let's see if this lifestyle, even in Duggars' own lives, is everything they claim it is." I think a little caveat at the beginning of Hopewell's post would make this difference clear, and ease misunderstandings between us here, too. Just because the Duggars are being subjected to such scrutiny, does not at all mean that Calluna need fear being subjected to the same.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 14, 2010 21:01:13 GMT -5
Calluna ~ I have been slow to respond to your comments here because I kept waiting for my initial irritation to pass and for something level-headed, positive and encouraging to come to me to replace my first response which would've been something snippy and defensive ... I've been thinking about your comments ~ thinking about Hopewell's article ~ examining my own motives ~ reading the responses of other NLQers such as Nikita, KR, etc. ~ and still this irritation persists. I still have not been able to put my finger on exactly what it is about your admonition which so bugs me ~ and I really am straining my brain to puzzle it out ~ but so far ... there's just this not-very-nice feeling in reaction to your criticism and I've decided to try writing a response and see what comes of it ~ maybe I'll get it half done and delete it ~ or PM it to you instead ~ I don't know ~ but I'm hoping that writing will help me think about this ... Calluna: I just found the latest piece by hopewell is distracting from the *real* issues. Those that are on the fence about these issues, (especially those that are *in* the movement, but questioning their teachings) will read it, get offended, and my fear is that they will ditch their "questionings", and won't see the dangers of the QF Patriarcy lifestyle for what it really is. They will only see a bunch of angry, bitter people who are nit picking the small stuff.I read Hopewell's article thoroughly as I was formatting it for posting ~ and I went back and read it again after seeing your reaction to it ~ and I honestly do not sense any mean-spiritedness in Hopewell's critique of the Duggar family ~ in fact, there are places where she's being much too kind. Yes ~ it is a long list ~ and yes, these 49 Character Qualities are not salvation issues ~ but they are, nevertheless, *real* issues which are very much relevant to NLQ and to the Quiverfull philosophy and lifestyle. The way I see it, the reason the list comes across as nit-picky is because it exposes just how burdensome and oppressive Bill Gothard's 49 Character Qualities really are for QF families. And there's nothing inherently wrong with these particular character qualities ~ it's just that, in ATI/IBLP families ~ this list becomes the primary focus and is studied in minute detail over and over ~ I have known families in which the 49 Character Qualities literally IS the entire scope and sequence of their homeschool curriculum. Reading Hopewell's list did get tedious and seemingly nit-picky after a while ~ GOOD! ~ that is a powerful demonstration of the legalistic and spirit-sucking nature of Quiverfull!!! Like a very dull, never ending sermon ~ Hopewell's list gets tiresome and even all the A+ and Bs do not provide any relief from the sheer "too-much-ness" of it all. Welcome to Quiverfull ~ welcome to ATI ~ welcome to the world of Quivering children ~ this is their LIFE day in and day out!!! This dreadful reality is a *real* issue ~ and if it's painful to read and makes us feel judged and inadequate ~ GOOD again! Now readers are getting a glimpse into Gothard-style homeschool. I've been reading Hillary's "Quivering Daughters" amzn.to/9Wm2c3 ~ and I can only think to myself, THIS is the way the kids experience QF ~ it is very different from the way the mothers experience it ~ Mom's need to know how it feels to be a 'blessing' being raised to be one of 'God's Mighty Warriors.' The overwhelming pressure! The feeling of being a total failure and of never living up to the expectations! Never being good enough ~ never winning the desired approval no matter how hard they try! And I came out of this lifestyle myself. I *write* about this lifestyle on my blog. My blog is dedicated to these issues. I have a couple of commenters on my blog that are riding the fence about these issues. If they were to come and read a piece like this by a woman that is a Christian, it will scare them to pieces, and I am afraid that they will run away, and cause them to miss the legitiment facts. I've read your blog ~ you have quite a story ~ and I appreciate the whimsical style in which you are telling it. Even so, I noticed that your latest post is titled: "Are Amish People Truly Happy?" To me, there's judgmentalism and condemnation built right into the headline. How is that different than what we're doing here at NLQ? We are not even questioning Quiverfull believers' salvation ~ and when they claim to be happy ~ we say, good for you ~ nevertheless, here's what happened to us and to our children ... I guess I just don't really see you tip-toeing around on your blog for the sake of not scaring away QFers on the fence. As a formerly fully-convinced Quiverfull believer myself, I am constantly evaluating the over-all "tone" of NLQ and the forum ~ asking myself, from my former perspective ~ how would I have reacted to No Longer Quivering? I am always careful not to post anything which is outright offensive and I make a special effort to highlight information and perspectives which I believe will resonate with ~ and possibly even get through to QF readers. My guess is that if I'd read Hopewell's article when I was still convinced of the Quiverfull way ~ I'd have been offended, yes ~ but deep down ~ I'd have known that the reason I hated the article was because my own life had become a drudgery ~ my children were just as painstakingly scrutinized over every little detail of their thoughts/beliefs/behaviors ~ they were constantly being weighed in the balance of "godliness" ~ and even though they scored quite well in attitudes, behaviors, beliefs, etc ~ it was the imperfections which stood out and were noticed and highlighted ~ and we were all sooooooooooooooooo sick and tired of trying to live up to those standards. If I'd have read that list as a practicing QFer ~ I'd have went away thinking, "We have no JOY." Calluna: The Quiverful, patriarchial, spiritual abusive groups are a very touchy subject, and I think pure objectiviy, pointing out the real facts and issues is what is needed. Sharing *personal* stories is one of the things I appreciate about NLQ.
But if a piece, written about other people, or ministries, it would be a good idea to keep objective to the facts, not to devulge into our own personal opinions about very grey areas, that they believe makes the Duggars quacky is going too far. Calluna ~ there is no such thing as "pure objectivity" Precisely *because* spiritual abuse is so intensely personal ~ exposing the dangers cannot be "just the facts" ~ the hurt and the anger and the wasted years and the guilt wrt what we've subjected ourselves and our children to ~ all with the best intentions! ~ it gets very messy ~ and because it is so ~ NLQ is going to reflect the mess ~ and sometimes with great intensity which will make QFers upset and uncomfortable. Calluna: I know that when I was on the fence myself, I would become very defensive over the Duggars if I had seen a piece written like this, and would end up in a morass of confusion.This is most probably true ~ but is it a bad thing? When you read more of my story ~ I have a post which I wrote to my uncle in the midst of coming undone ~ and the confusion and panic was so overwhelming that I honestly considered that we might all be better off dead! I actually spent a lot of time thinking about how I might get us all in the van at the same time ~ under some pretext of an outing or whatever ~ and then get out on the highway and deliberately smash us all head-on into an on-coming semi-truck. I know that's horrible ~ but that's the reality of how painful the paradigm shift can be at times ~ a paradigm shift which is necessary to break away from a head trip as powerful and all-encompassing as Quiverfull. Just like a thorough house-cleaning ~ sometimes it gets a lot messier and can look like a total disaster while things are getting sorted through, tossed out, and whatever's left is organized and put neatly back in place. Calluna: I will probably get a lot of responses to this that don't agree with me, and that's fine. You don't have to agree with me. But I am giving giving another point of view to think about.This really is the part, I think, which has had me so irritated because ~ I feel that while you say, "That's fine" if we don't agree that Hopewell's piece is inappropriate for NLQ ~ when I wrote an entire blog post stating why I believe it does belong here, and others have also explained the merits of the article ~ you come back and tell us that you feel attacked and you write: Vykie asked me to write for NLQ. I told her that I had reservations and why. I don't think I would be welcomed to share my story here. Honestly ~ I've read over the responses to your comments and I do not know what we could do to make you feel more welcomed here. This is going to sound mean, Calluna ~ but your choice to not write for NLQ comes across as grandstanding and a persecution complex. It is almost as though you set us up to disagree with you ~ and when we did disagree with you ~ then we're not welcoming and you are justified in the reservations which you initially expressed. You do understand about self-fulfilling prophecies? I'm asking you to consider, Calluna, if you might still be dealing with the self-defeating mechanism which many of us learned as submissive Quiverfull wives and fundamentalist believers. This is not an attack ~ it's just a question which arises as I've observed your interaction with non-believers and even Christians who have differing perspectives than your own. It takes strong-minded women to rid ourselves of the QF virus of the mind ~ that's the kind of women you're going to encounter here at NLQ ~ and I believe that we can count you among the strong-minded as you've already demonstrated here and on your own blog. Take it another step, Calluna ~ it is good and right that you have your opinions and that you express your thoughts and feelings ~ we welcome and encourage that ~ but also, please allow us to do the same. I respect your choice to stick to the safety of your own blog rather than take the risk of sharing here at NLQ ~ only you know what is right for you and what you can handle at this stage in your journey. We all process and heal in our own way and at their own pace. Those of us who are writing our stories here are finding that it really does help ~ we do feel supported, affirmed and validated through the interactions here on the forum. If ever you are at a point when you feel that sharing here at NLQ would be beneficial to you too ~ you are most welcome.
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Post by cherylannhannah on Sept 14, 2010 21:57:15 GMT -5
CherylAnnHannah At least you're honest about it! And something tells me that you are not so concerned/consumed with your childrens CHOICE OF LIFESTYLE/BELIEF SYSTEM as you are that you understand your own limitations.
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Post by calluna on Sept 14, 2010 23:29:23 GMT -5
This will be the only thing I say in defense of myself Vykie. First of all, I did write a post after you wrote the piece you did why you think the piece that Hopewell wrote should be on here. It's on the first page, I think the last post.
What you wrote made sense, and I think if Hopewell, had prefaced her report card with something along those lines, it would of been easier for me to "get" where she was coming from.
I did not take issue with those feeling that they explained the merits of the article. They are entitled to their opinions, but the big difference is that I didn't sling personal attacks towards them.
I take issue with these things that were slung at me in a bitchy way:
Can't we discuss merits and dismerits without slinging personal attacks? Why is it OK for those on here to say stuff like this to me, but it isn't OK for me to post my opinions on the article, and be upset, when someone personally attacks me?
Honestly, I don't mind disagrement...and *discussion* of those disagreements without the need to throw personal, bitchy attacks towards someone who points out their differences of opinion. How is that promoting a safe and "supportive" enviroment?
You yourself said to me in a PM,
Again, how does the above quotes about me blaming people, telling them to shut up, life is hard, get used to it, safe and supportive community?
You are probably right in that aspect Vyckie. And with MOST "quivering" girls that I have talked to that were raised this way, they still deal with the self-defeating mechanism. You said yourself that those on NLQ were all at different parts in their journey, and that you accepted each other for where you were at, but is throwing personal attacks and making personal assumptions based on nothing I said, really considered accepting each other, and supporting one another in where they are at in their journey?
I am sorry if this sounds irritating to you. But I am being honest. I did say, I was afraid that my perspective would bring judgment, and you assured me that for the most part, I would be accepted.
One thing I did learn through my own journey.... is to try and not to go from one pendelum swing to the next.
I don't know how to write this without it coming across the wrong way.
But just because I don't agree with the lifestyle, movment, or ministries, or teachings of the Quiverful, Patriarchy lifestyle, doesn't mean that I will nod my head in complete agreement with *anything* said against it, until I first evaluate what is being said has any vaildation.
Again, I am stressing that your article about *why* hopewell wrote the article made more sense, and I wish hopewell would of done that, then I wouldn't of been so "offended"
Yes, I do agree that Hopewell said some very nice things about the Duggars. But it was clear her article was meant to critisize them. But the *WHY* she critisized was left out, which gave me the sour taste in my mouth.
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Post by chbernat on Sept 15, 2010 6:48:06 GMT -5
CherylAnnHannah Incidentally, I learned far more about parenting from watching SuperNannny than I ever did from reading What the Bible Says about Child Training and other books of that ilk. Her methods really work. And they are compassionate and respectful of children. I love that show! There really are some great techniques and I love her creativity! Did anyone else find last night's episode of 19 Kids a bit offensive? So Michelle FINALLY answered her critics. "But I'm the MOM." Michelle that's not what I am critiquing. I am critiquing the overwhelming load of work on your girls, the fact that four of your "helpers" have graduated and as referenced by Jill, they love their family so much they don't want to leave the nest. I am critiquing that you don't think enough about your children. Jordyn does not know you. Jennifer is being potty trained by her sisters. You didn't want the girls to feel "that kind of responsibility" over the care of Josie, but why doesn't it matter to you that they feel enormous responsibility towards the other little ones? And Jessa is teaching the younger ones? Seriously, I need to quit watching and supporting this madness.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 15, 2010 7:43:24 GMT -5
Calluna ~ I have added a preface (written by KR) to the beginning of Hopewell's article along with a link to my "Duggar Bashing" post. After writing my response to you last night, I went to bed and thought about how we all have such different perceptions and how good and necessary it is that we should all be able to openly express our unique perspectives in order for a whole and true picture to emerge. Many of us here read the Duggar Report Card and thought ~ why's Hopewell being so nice to the Duggars? Others, such as yourself, read it and wondered why she's being so critical and nit-picky. There was a lot of back-and-forth with various perspectives being shared ~ and that exchange resulted in a better understanding and better article ~ which is how the whole processing thing works. I am sorry that you did not feel supported through that process ~ it probably would have helped if I had addressed your concerns directly to you rather than just writing the "Duggar Bashing" post with no comment to you personally. I am encouraged that you are not giving up on this discussion ~ it shows that you are willing to take constructive criticism as well as contributing your own take on things. I've been thinking lately how ironic it is that NLQ seems to be perceived quite differently depending on the perspective of the reader. We have several new readers who are commenting on the blog ~ conservative Christians who are convinced that NLQ is nothing but angry, liberal, feminist Atheists. On the other hand, MoJoey at "Deep Thoughts" recently called NLQ a Christian website and over at Free Jinger, someone was asking, What's with all the bible quoting at NLQ? The reason we get such a mixed reaction is because NLQ regulars are, on the one hand, individually unique and diverse, and on the other hand, we're pretty much the same in our refusal to be pegged ~ not one of us here fits neatly into any pre-defined category of "Christian," "Atheist," "Pagan," etc ~ we've grown past the labels and we want to be known for our distinctions rather than how closely we conform to a set of doctrines or stereotypes. It is for this reason that I invited you to share your story here at NLQ, Calluna. Your story ~ and the place you are now ~ is an important piece of the whole picture. While I do feel that NLQ would benefit by including your perspective ~ you certainly are under no obligation ~ only you can determine if sharing your story here is beneficial to you. You are saying that you don't feel safe and supported ~ I am having a difficult time seeing it that way ~ but I am not going to dismiss your feelings or say you don't know what you're talking about and continue to press you to stick with us and write for NLQ. I will, however, make the point that if you feel your perspective is missing, misunderstood, or underrepresented here at NLQ ~ you really are welcome to speak up and continue to challenge us and make sure that your point of view is heard. I hope you will ~ it's your decision.
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Post by mommybunny1 on Sept 15, 2010 8:42:14 GMT -5
Let us do some simple mat regarding the second generation of QF. Which child is Grandma going to visit all day to help with the yung'uns and the chores? Grandma has too many needy daughter and daughters in law to even visit them all regularly.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 15, 2010 10:56:11 GMT -5
Vyckie, I notice that the new opening "Note" doesn't appear in the text that appears on the home page. It appears when you click on "Full Story" -- but by the time the reader clicks on "Full Story," she will have already read the beginning of the post and will go on from where she left off, not seeing the opening "Note." Also, since it's in italics, the spots where I put in italics are actually turning off the italics and then turning them back on again. Assuming you intend the whole "Note" to be in italics, I would recommend putting the words "can" and "can't" in bold, in the sentence with the word "televisions" in it, and in the sentence following.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 15, 2010 11:16:26 GMT -5
Vyckie, I notice that the new opening "Note" doesn't appear in the text that appears on the home page. It appears when you click on "Full Story" -- but by the time the reader clicks on "Full Story," she will have already read the beginning of the post and will go on from where she left off, not seeing the opening "Note." Also, since it's in italics, the spots where I put in italics are actually turning off the italics and then turning them back on again. Assuming you intend the whole "Note" to be in italics, I would recommend putting the words "can" and "can't" in bold, in the sentence with the word "televisions" in it, and in the sentence following. Thanks for bringing that to my attention! As much as I am liking the look of the new site layout ~ I have to admit it can be a real pain to format, edit, etc. posts. If I make a change in one spot ~ it doesn't automatically update everywhere else ~ and it's easy to lose track of all the places I have to manually add the change.
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Post by nikita on Sept 15, 2010 19:20:33 GMT -5
I think this notation makes all the difference in the world. Thanks Vyckie, that was very well done. It pulls together both the original article and the subsequent one you wrote and wraps it all up in one unified thought.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 15, 2010 19:58:02 GMT -5
"Life is hard. Get used to it." Those words are for the Duggars. They are on a reality TV show! Their entire life iis up for discussion and they're getting paid for it. They invited the cameras into their home. They invited scrutiny. I am sure being grown adults they KNOW that people will find fault with them.
I was certainly not calling you any names, calluna. I just was not moved by your plea to be less critical of the Duggars.
Am I bitchy? I didn't think my post was over the top. But, eh, I've been called worse. *shrugs*
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Post by chbernat on Sept 15, 2010 20:25:56 GMT -5
seriously even the sweetest person such as yourself is entitled to be bitchy!
But then again, I suppose I shouldn't be saying that word. "You wouldn't put garbage in your mouth so don't put it in your head."
Can you guess where THAT quote came from, Humbletigger? ;D
Hugs!
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Post by cherylannhannah on Sept 15, 2010 20:51:44 GMT -5
I was thinking about the picture perfect way that some of the QF'ers try to present their lives and it reminded me of The Teaching Home magazine. I used to HATE all those pictures of perfectly coiffed, neatly dressed, happy families in extremely clean and tidy homes happily homeschooling or working cheerfully at some task. My homeschool was such a far cry from all that and the contrast was painful. In fact, I don't know a single hs family who was able to accomplish that sort of perfection and order.
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phatchick
Junior Member
Medicated for Your Protection
Posts: 80
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Post by phatchick on Sept 15, 2010 21:40:37 GMT -5
But then again, I suppose I shouldn't be saying that word. "You wouldn't put garbage in your mouth so don't put it in your head. {wry grin} Did you and I have the same baptist momma?
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