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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 16, 2010 8:48:26 GMT -5
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Post by nikita on Sept 16, 2010 9:44:43 GMT -5
Spooky. It's like you're walking around in my head...
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Post by journey on Sept 16, 2010 11:48:37 GMT -5
I think the ability to have a variety of different spiritual beliefs is highly important. If you leave QF and yet still "have to be" (or "cannot be") a certain type of Christian, then the spiritual abuse is STILL going on. Leaving QF means you are leaving the world where someone else tells you what God says you "have" to do. So, now out and able to think and feel for herself (perhaps for the first time in her entire life), it is important for the new free person to be able to sort out her religous/spiritual inclinations, thoughts, feelings and beliefs, without pressure to fit (or not fit) inside a certain mold. This sorting process may be fairly quick, or it may take years. It's important to have a safe place where sorting, thinking and considering about these matters are allowed. I appreciate the NLQ's open armed approach at allowing every participant the freedom to hold and evolve their own beliefs. Good job, Vyckie!
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Post by MoonlitNight on Sept 16, 2010 12:38:09 GMT -5
The reason you're getting such a wide spread of opinions is that you're getting visited by fundamentalist Christians, hardcore secular types, and everything in between. To the fundamentalists, I would guess much of this site must seem worldly and even heretical. Myself, I was brought up without any religion at all, and I'm sure many others were brought up without much more. I've never intentionally been to a church service in my life. Most people that I know are nonreligious enough that I am not sure what faith they have, or any at all, and I usually don't ask because it doesn't make any difference to how I will treat them. In our daily lives, weeks and months go by without any Bible quotations or allusions whatsoever. (I'm Canadian -- apparently we're more secular.)
You can see how, compared to that, there is a huge amount of discussion about Christian practice and theology happening here, and for those that don't know much about fundamentalist beliefs, well, then it probably all looks like Christianity. Many, many people haven't got the training to distinguish viewpoint A from viewpoint B that easily. Myself, I've been in an academic program that covered parts of the Bible from a historical-critical approach, so I know what the writers are doing when they start into the exegesis and prooftexts. But honestly, even though I have the training to do it, I don't read those articles very closely, because I don't need to be convinced of their conclusions, and don't know anyone who does.
I can certainly see why someone without critical Bible study training, or much knowledge of fundamentalist beliefs, would look briefly around NLQ, and think it's very Christian indeed.
My opinion, having been here a while, is that NLQ is a place for people to discuss emotional and spiritual abuse, the systems that allow and encourage it, and how to heal from and prevent abuse in future. The sister topic of being second-class citizens is also discussed heavily, and seems to be a very, very strong predictor of abuse, whether personally intended or systemic. It's a fascinating and sometimes tragic and horrifying intersection of religion, psychology, history, anthropology/sociology, women's studies (including feminism), and probably some other disciplines I can't think of right now. I find it much, much more interesting to listen to you folk than to the academic feminists discussing the same stuff. And if more abusees from other traditions, Abrahamic or not, join NLQ, we are going to be able to figure out much better which things those situations had in common, and gain a better understanding of what things allow and encourage second-classness and abuse, so that we can join in the long, slow process of rooting them out.
I think the mothers of feminism are very proud of you ladies.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 16, 2010 14:58:02 GMT -5
Good post, Vykcie. I will say that not only is each of us at a different point in our path out of spiritual abuse, but that for each of us, that path is personal and unique.
If I may show my geekiness here for a moment-- "Is NLQ Christian, or is NLQ atheist?" sounds a lot like what the Vulcan authorities asked Spock: "Are you Vulcan, or are you Human?"
The answer, of course, is simply not as simple as the Vulcan authorities wanted it to be, and for Spock to have answered "yes" to either one would have been to deny his own unique individuality.
NLQ, the website for people finding their way out of restrictive categories, should not itself be categorized.
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Post by kisekileia on Sept 16, 2010 19:22:35 GMT -5
I've thought for years that if I owned a car, I might like to have both a Darwin fish and a Jesus fish on it. No wonder I feel like I fit at NLQ even though I'm not a QF/P survivor (though I am an escapee from evangelicalism and a spiritual abuse survivor).
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Post by nikita on Sept 16, 2010 19:54:56 GMT -5
I've thought for years that if I owned a car, I might like to have both a Darwin fish and a Jesus fish on it. No wonder I feel like I fit at NLQ even though I'm not a QF/P survivor (though I am an escapee from evangelicalism and a spiritual abuse survivor). I couldn't get behind the fish symbols At All until I finally saw a version I couldn't resist -- which is why my car has a vampire fish affixed to it. ;D NLQ is the only place I've come to that immediately felt like 'this fits'. And this in spite of the fact that when I came on the forums most of the discussion was centering on feminist and atheist issues and I posted Very Carefully so as not to offend anyone who was nonreligious because I thought that was the clear majority here. Eventually I realized that I was not the only person who held onto their faith while rejecting the abusive religious system I had been involved in and that I could actually express myself honestly and respectfully without being attacked by the secular and atheist forum posters. That was a new experience for me. The idea that people could hold different ideas and points of view and still talk to each other, even get angry with each other's point of view, but still work through it and respect each other and remain civil was a shock to me. I spent sixteen years in a cult where you had to monitor what you said and did very carefully or suffer that most terrible of fates: being thrown out and shunned, even by your own spouse. My own family was the same way, so there was a double effect at work -- conform in thought and behavior on everything or be cast away. One of my sisters threw me violently out of her house during a Mother's Day gathering because I offhandedly said I wanted to have another child when my first was two and a half and she had decided that five years was the perfect spacing and any less was unacceptable and if I couldn't admit that I was completely wrong and vow not to get pregnant then I should just leave! Now! That was a fun day. Anyway, the idea that people can have such wildly divergent ideas and beliefs and still be nice to each other is not something I am used to experiencing. It's a true gift, this site and these people. After all these years I am finally learning how to talk to people who don't agree with me without freaking out and/or becoming extremely depressed. It's so childish but that's where I'm at. I am very grateful for NLQ and for all of you.
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Post by humbletigger on Sept 16, 2010 21:09:01 GMT -5
Darwin fish, Christian fish, vampire fish. You ladies are making me hungry for fish! ;D
I appreciate all of the posters here at NLQ and the wide variety of spiritual beliefs/wisdom/experiences they bring to the discussion. This is truly a unique place of good will. May it always be this way!
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Sept 18, 2010 12:40:55 GMT -5
To me, I don't really see true atheism here on the blog or on the boards. Agnosticism, definitely.
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Post by jemand on Sept 18, 2010 13:14:49 GMT -5
To me, I don't really see true atheism here on the blog or on the boards. Agnosticism, definitely. well of course, we don't have any *true* Scotsmen here lol. We do though have several people who self-identify as atheist and it's probably best to let people self-define like that even if under your terminology you consider our position more agnostic than that.
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Sept 18, 2010 16:50:30 GMT -5
it's probably best to let people self-define like that even if under your terminology you consider our position more agnostic than that. For individual beliefs of board members, I agree, but one of the definitions of agnostic is as such: "A person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist)" The main site, as a whole, is saying that no one human really has absolute and true knowledge of a higher power, therefore these movement leaders and husbands and whatnot shouldn't be claiming to know The Word better than anyone else. To me, that's agnosticism at it's finest.
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Post by nikita on Sept 18, 2010 17:26:11 GMT -5
it's probably best to let people self-define like that even if under your terminology you consider our position more agnostic than that. For individual beliefs of board members, I agree, but one of the definitions of agnostic is as such: "A person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist)" The main site, as a whole, is saying that no one human really has absolute and true knowledge of a higher power, therefore these movement leaders and husbands and whatnot shouldn't be claiming to know The Word better than anyone else. To me, that's agnosticism at it's finest. I don't consider that NLQ itself has a belief system. It is only reflective of the perspectives of its members and its stated purpose. That it is welcoming to people of all faiths or no faith doesn't somehow propel it into a place with a particular faith such as agnosticism would imply. When someone asks if NLQ is Christian or atheist I take that to mean is it really promoting one or the other worldview above others or to the exclusion of others. Of course, it is not. But it is also not promoting questioning whether any faith at all is valid either. It isn't promoting any particular faith or lack of faith whatsoever. It is promoting a worldview that rejects Q/P and cultic and abusive religious systems and worldviews and offering people information and support in leaving them or processing having left them. Just because a person questions the legitimacy of a particular teaching or religious movement doesn't mean they question the existence of God or whatever religion they happen to follow. I don't think NLQ is Christian or atheist or agnostic or Hindu or Muslim or Pagan or whatever else people here have believed, continue to believe, or choose to start believing. It is simply a refuge, and as such does not fit into any of those categories. It's very usefulness lies in it's lack of fitting into any of those categories. That's not agnosticism. That's freedom.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 18, 2010 22:30:42 GMT -5
Very true, Nikita. I've been thinking about this, and I think that what NLQ really is about is a place to unite against a common enemy: spiritually abusive fundamentalism, in whatever form it might appear.
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Post by rosa on Sept 19, 2010 12:39:43 GMT -5
I think we have a set of shared beliefs.
We believe that individuals should have the freedom to make decisions for themselves; we believe that good people can disagree about religion; we believe men should not be elevated over women just by their gender; we believe children exist for their own purposes, not just as tools/receptacles/reflections of adults. We believe that breaking a person's spirit or causing them to believe they are unworthy of love, freedom, or safety is wrong.
These don't look like beliefs because they're so basic, like air doesn't seem like one of the necessities of life because you always have it. But we've all brushed up against groups or individuals who don't share them.
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haley
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by haley on Sept 20, 2010 20:07:28 GMT -5
I don't think NLQ is an atheist website in the same way that Pharyngula or Skepchick is an atheist website. There are a lot of voices here, and they have varying beliefs. I think a sense of basic humanism is present in most people here- we are all concerned with human suffering, and our morality has a foundation in minimizing suffering on earth. You can be a Religious Humanist or -gasp- a Secular Humanist. I may have this totally wrong, I'm relatively new here, and one of those hardcore secular humanist atheist feminist types. Maybe I'm just reflecting my own values on the website.
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Post by andromeda on Sept 25, 2010 19:58:01 GMT -5
I've thought for years that if I owned a car, I might like to have both a Darwin fish and a Jesus fish on it. No wonder I feel like I fit at NLQ even though I'm not a QF/P survivor (though I am an escapee from evangelicalism and a spiritual abuse survivor). I couldn't get behind the fish symbols At All until I finally saw a version I couldn't resist -- which is why my car has a vampire fish affixed to it. ;D I want the one that says "Sushi!!
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Post by pollypinks on Oct 13, 2010 10:55:57 GMT -5
I am a newby here. Fundamentalism coupled with evangelicalism is partly to blame for the vitriol and hatred in our political arena today. Also, I have found, that they think they have the power to decide who will enter heaven and who will not. I consider my beliefs very liberal, yet still within the Christian realm, and chose to attend a church that supports me regardless of my political or personal beliefs on subjects. Like rabid women standing in the streets showing dead fetus's, assuming that will bring people to Christ. Or only voting for a candidate because of a pro-life stance, knowing full well that nobody's ever going to take on "Roe." If we want to be Christians, fine, if not, fine, but to beat people over the head with a bible and a version of events that never took place is ridiculous. My daughter is buddhist, and I'm fine with where she's at. Life's too short to let these people judge you with their venom.
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