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Post by sargassosea on Nov 2, 2009 9:41:25 GMT -5
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Post by aussiemama on Nov 2, 2009 9:49:33 GMT -5
Ugh. Didn't he have any respect for you? I understand guys wanting to play, but enough is enough.
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Nov 2, 2009 10:42:42 GMT -5
That's extremely creepy. (hand on breast) So, if he was a Bible college student and Ephesians told him to love his wife as Christ loved the church, then, yikes, Exactly what did this husband think that Christ does to His church, anyway??? Christ loved His church by parking His hand on her breast? ? Really damaging representation of Jesus Christ, Mr. Bible College student.
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Post by xara on Nov 2, 2009 11:14:42 GMT -5
It is sad that you went through that.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 11:55:25 GMT -5
Ugh. Didn't he have any respect for you? I understand guys wanting to play, but enough is enough. But it's not play if it's unwanted. It's assault.
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Post by journey on Nov 2, 2009 15:16:08 GMT -5
I brought it up, that it had really bothered me...a few weeks after our honeymoon... He made me feel so guilty for being angry/hurt about it. I believed him and I felt like I didn't have the right to be upset...
The hand-on-breast thing was such a "little" thing, you know...but it wasn't little. It was representative of the way he thought about me, about marriage, and it would go on and on...that way of viewing me, that way of behaving (though he never did that particular thing again).
It was later, in reading a chapter about sexual abuse, in a book for wives escaping abusive men, I cried. It gave me permission to feel violated about something that had happened so long ago. I'd felt violated then...but I thought that was an indication that something was wrong with *me.*
The interesting thing is that, during my "wild" days, I had been in an abusive relationship with a boyfriend, and I broke up with him because of it. There was no way I was going to put up with that!
And yet, when I became a Christian, I believed (because I had been taught from early childhood in my conservative church) that what my husband did was not abuse...because if you are a Christian wife, you have to do whatever your husband says (with a smile) unless it's a sin....and, well, it's not a sin for a husband to touch his wife.
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Post by tapati on Nov 2, 2009 15:32:23 GMT -5
I brought it up, that it had really bothered me...a few weeks after our honeymoon... He made me feel so guilty for being angry/hurt about it. I believed him and I felt like I didn't have the right to be upset... The hand-on-breast thing was such a "little" thing, you know...but it wasn't little. It was representative of the way he thought about me, about marriage, and it would go on and on...that way of viewing me, that way of behaving (though he never did that particular thing again). It was later, in reading a chapter about sexual abuse, in a book for wives escaping abusive men, I cried. It gave me permission to feel violated about something that had happened so long ago. I'd felt violated then...but I thought that was an indication that something was wrong with *me.* The interesting thing is that, during my "wild" days, I had been in an abusive relationship with a boyfriend, and I broke up with him because of it. There was no way I was going to put up with that! And yet, when I became a Christian, I believed (because I had been taught from early childhood in my conservative church) that what my husband did was not abuse...because if you are a Christian wife, you have to do whatever your husband says (with a smile) unless it's a sin....and, well, it's not a sin for a husband to touch his wife. I had to stop reading this in the middle and go do something and come back to finish it, it was so disturbing for me. In the legalistic world of "what is a sin" and what is not, he could seem to make that a reasonable act. SEEM is the operative word here. To assume that as a wife you had to let him touch you wherever and whenever he wished, just because it didn't fit some narrow interpretation of Biblical "sin" is an outrageous abuse of power. Let's turn that around. Let's suppose that because it is not a sin to touch your husband by his standards, you decided that what you really wanted to do was meet him at work and grab his crotch in front of his boss and coworkers. I can only imagine how fast he would assert his own right not to be touched whenever and wherever YOU wanted! Or perhaps you could have firmly grabbed a buttcheek as he went to pay for a purchase at the counter, in full view of other customers, and refused to let go. The golden rule is also part of the Bible and covers a lot of things otherwise not spelled out. Such as "When your wife indicates she is uncomfortable with you grabbing her breast, unless you'd like her to treat you like that you should respect her right to control over her own body and remove your hand." I can't begin to tell you how sorry I am that you were treated like that and that he attempted to justify this sort of behavior. He knew it was wrong. He knew.
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Post by justflyingin on Nov 2, 2009 15:44:22 GMT -5
This one made me feel sick.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 18:21:53 GMT -5
The hand-on-breast thing was such a "little" thing, you know...but it wasn't little. It was representative of the way he thought about me, about marriage, and it would go on and on... Actually, it made me worry how bad things ended up getting, since that was literally how you started out.
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Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 18:34:28 GMT -5
OH dear.. that is a very disturbing thing to happen. I remember my ex used to reach out and just grab parts of my body in passing, shove his hand up my skirt, grab my breast.. and I just HATED IT. I eventually learned to dodge and pull back in time though it angered him and he would accuse me of being "cold". It's so disgusting to be treated like that, you have my great sympathy. I can see he was really staking his claim and putting you in your place from day 1.
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Post by redheadedskeptic on Nov 2, 2009 18:36:01 GMT -5
Abstinence only doesn't work. I strongly believe it leads to pathologies like this. For every couple that makes it work, I wonder how many end up like this? I know my relationship was more like yours rather than the idealized version seen in I Kissed Dating Goodbye and TLW rallies. What a jerk. I can identify, at least a little. I don't know how yours ends--sounds like yours may wind up being more extreme than mine, but I know how it's not a little thing. Not at all.
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em
Full Member
Posts: 176
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Post by em on Nov 2, 2009 18:50:11 GMT -5
I brought it up, that it had really bothered me...a few weeks after our honeymoon... He made me feel so guilty for being angry/hurt about it. I believed him and I felt like I didn't have the right to be upset... The hand-on-breast thing was such a "little" thing, you know...but it wasn't little. It was representative of the way he thought about me, about marriage, and it would go on and on...that way of viewing me, that way of behaving (though he never did that particular thing again). It was later, in reading a chapter about sexual abuse, in a book for wives escaping abusive men, I cried. It gave me permission to feel violated about something that had happened so long ago. I'd felt violated then...but I thought that was an indication that something was wrong with *me.* The interesting thing is that, during my "wild" days, I had been in an abusive relationship with a boyfriend, and I broke up with him because of it. There was no way I was going to put up with that! And yet, when I became a Christian, I believed (because I had been taught from early childhood in my conservative church) that what my husband did was not abuse...because if you are a Christian wife, you have to do whatever your husband says (with a smile) unless it's a sin....and, well, it's not a sin for a husband to touch his wife. I really feel for you, Journey. I've been sexually assaulted myself a few times. Thankfully it's not been anything major. Drunk jackasses trying to kiss me when I say no, and one unwanted touching incident. At first I kinda did the same you did. I sort of shrugged it off, after all you weren't really violated in an awful way ... it was just some little thing, it could have been a lot worse but it wasn't so it wasn't *that* bad. A while later I found out that what happened to me actually was considered sexual assault. I was floored. The reality of it just hit me at once. I completely understand where you're coming from here (er well kind of. I didn't have an asshole of a husband doing this to me, just some random guys I haven't seen again). I hope you're ok now. I hope you've gotten some healing over it. Because, believe me, I know what a number it can do on you and how it can affect how you deal with men for a long time after.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 19:19:00 GMT -5
OH dear.. that is a very disturbing thing to happen. I remember my ex used to reach out and just grab parts of my body in passing, shove his hand up my skirt, grab my breast.. Oh my god. This just floors me. The worldview in which sexual assault is permissible because it's "not sin." Where partners don't talk about what is and is not okay. I mean, did you ever really consent to sex? I just... I'm glad you all got out. And... And... I would like to say something Very Bad about your exes that I think Vyckie wouldn't appreciate because of "the tone" of the blog, so I won't... But I'm *thinking* it.
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Post by jemand on Nov 2, 2009 19:45:56 GMT -5
what kind of mentality grabs a breast, or ass, or up the skirt first? Instead of maybe caressing a shoulder or lightly holding a hand and seeing if there is interest/response or if perhaps the other person is just busy at the moment? What kind of person just starts feeling their partner up without some physical/body language "conversation" working up to it?
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Post by journey on Nov 2, 2009 20:15:40 GMT -5
what kind of mentality grabs a breast, or ass, or up the skirt first? Instead of maybe caressing a shoulder or lightly holding a hand and seeing if there is interest/response or if perhaps the other person is just busy at the moment? What kind of person just starts feeling their partner up without some physical/body language "conversation" working up to it? Yes... Like arrietty's husband, mine used things like the above (grabs without checking on the other person's body language, or even being ABLE to check on their body language) to comment on my *own* sexual problems. That my reaction proved I had problems, because I wasn't comfortable with his grabs. That I wasn't being forgiving or gracious, because it bothered me. That I was a prude, because it bothered me... Which, in turn, got me all confused. Instead of it being simply about the issue, my head got all spinned around and soon I was defending *my* actions, not his, and soon it was somehow my fault, my issues... "Am I a prude? I didn't used to be a prude, ever...but am I one now? Oh no..." His manipulation worked so well, because I had NO clue, and not one suspicion, that there was any manipulation at all. I thought we were both operating on the same page: wanting a healthy, happy marriage. It took me a long long long time to realize that we did not have that as a common goal.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 20:18:29 GMT -5
what kind of mentality grabs a breast, or ass, or up the skirt first? Instead of maybe caressing a shoulder or lightly holding a hand and seeing if there is interest/response or if perhaps the other person is just busy at the moment? What kind of person just starts feeling their partner up without some physical/body language "conversation" working up to it? The kind of person who wouldn't see marital rape as real rape. The kind of person who sees marriage as a property contract.
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Post by rosa on Nov 2, 2009 22:30:43 GMT -5
..and sexuality as being all about himself & God, not really about the other person involved at all.
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Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 22:48:25 GMT -5
OH dear.. that is a very disturbing thing to happen. I remember my ex used to reach out and just grab parts of my body in passing, shove his hand up my skirt, grab my breast.. Oh my god. This just floors me. The worldview in which sexual assault is permissible because it's "not sin." Where partners don't talk about what is and is not okay. I mean, did you ever really consent to sex? I just... I'm glad you all got out. And... And... I would like to say something Very Bad about your exes that I think Vyckie wouldn't appreciate because of "the tone" of the blog, so I won't... But I'm *thinking* it. km this grabbing body bits is not that uncommon and it really has nothing to do with religion. I've known many males that think this is just fine, and women who joke about it. It's definitely a "this is mine" action. As to sex, well my ex was all about control and being the one in charge of everything. If I wanted sex you can bet there would be no sex because that would be him giving in to my request which, frankly, never ever happened in any kind of sphere. It was a personality issue that wasn't sex specific, it affected everything.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 23:49:04 GMT -5
km this grabbing body bits is not that uncommon and it really has nothing to do with religion. I've known many males that think this is just fine, and women who joke about it. It's definitely a "this is mine" action. Yeah, but if women joke about it and are okay with it, then it's consensual. If they're not, it really is sexual assault. I mean, that's the definition of sexual assault--being touched in any sexual way that you are not okay with. And it doesn't at all shock me that there are men out there who feel sexually entitled irrespective of religion (I don't think QF helps things, but I also know that sexism extends far beyond QF, as does the tradition of "marriage as property contract."). I think one of the worst things about abstinence only education may be that a lot of women are never taught to be assertive about what they like and don't like, never learn how to have conversations about what is and isn't okay. Not that I learned to do any of those things in my regular sex ed classes either, though. Honestly, I didn't really get any of that stuff until I got a feminist education of sorts. We don't just automatically *know* how to talk about our sexuality when it's repressed and ignored for so much of our lives.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 23:54:57 GMT -5
also, arietty, I think that we're taught to normalize these things--to treat them as "not that big of a deal," to think that this is the kind of thing that happens to everyone. And I don't just mean we're taught these things in QF cultures, but certainly in mainstream culture too. And non-consensual sexual contact definitely does happen to far more people than it should, but I'm uncomfortable with normalizing language that gets the bastards who perpetrate this shit off the hook. It IS a big deal. And it's also a big deal when women's sexual desires are considered immaterial and unimportant. We're just as sexual as men are, you know? And in a real partnership, sexual relationships are about what *both* people desire and need.
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Post by km on Nov 2, 2009 23:56:47 GMT -5
Basically, I'm just saying all this to say... These stories make me *angry* on your behalf. I just have a thing about entitled assholes who abuse other people... (sorry.)
But mostly, I'm really sorry that you and Journey had to go through that.
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Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 23:59:35 GMT -5
Just because women joke about it doesn't mean it's consensual.
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Post by km on Nov 3, 2009 0:44:57 GMT -5
Just because women joke about it doesn't mean it's consensual. You're definitely right there. I guess I just interpreted you as saying that this wasn't that big of a deal, people joke about it all the time. And sometimes, yeah, I do think it's consensual, but certainly not when someone says it's happened against her will.
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Post by km on Nov 3, 2009 1:12:10 GMT -5
Anyway, arietty, I wanted to say before I go to bed, that I'm sorry for being all "OH HORRORS!!!" about something that had become a mundane reality for you. I know better than to do that, and I'd really regret it if I triggered you about this stuff. I was mostly trying to express solidarity, but I can see that I crossed a line. I'm sorry. I value your presence here quite a lot, and I'd hate to have caused you more pain.
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Post by arietty on Nov 3, 2009 1:22:38 GMT -5
Don't worry KM, I live on the internet and I have a very thick skin when it comes to online interactions though I know this is not so for many people. Thanks for your post though because it clarified a frustration I have.. which is precisely what you described, getting horrified reactions to what is just one tiny piece of my life story. I have felt a few times like I'm justifying putting up with something as though that were my peak abusive experience when in fact it's just one element and not the big picture at all. I know all this crap was bad but if I had to have folks reeling in horror at each element it makes me feel like quite an idiot LOL!
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