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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 16, 2010 8:14:36 GMT -5
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Post by rosa on Apr 16, 2010 10:38:14 GMT -5
MusicMom, this whole story is making me so sad. It sounds like your mom gave up the "chains" but kept the emotional over-investment in her kids, and played favorites to boot.
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Post by janedoe on Apr 16, 2010 15:41:45 GMT -5
Musicmom, [see addition at bottom] the 'dark' side of feminism...with every good there is always and evil, I see it, like a Coin, with two faces. Anyway, are you aware of these support groups? [my situ a bit similar to yours but father gone age of 6, at least where the mother-daughter issues are, to some degree though mine had the paganism/RA with religion and then for some years sorcery, so the dynamics a bit different] regardless, there is some really good info on these blogs, that helped me, and I think you'll be able to relate, to A lot on them. Warning, though, some of the abuses, are very physical and sexual too and very hard to read/triggers. What about when Mom is the Abuser whataboutwhenmomistheabuser.blogspot.com/Making Daughters Safe Again -- this was one of the first I found, years ago, I hate to say this but the US is so Backwards when it comes, including in the psychiatric fields, to Facing up that Yes, women DO abuse, including Sexually, and that it's NOT just patriarchy, women are human beings, therefore agents of will/choice, though it IS hard to work through the trauma Because we Identify with our female abusers Because we are under oppressive patriarchy, etc. Australia and Canada though, have excellent studies/therapies...] mdsasupport.homestead.com/ra.htmlBTW Vickie, though mother's may not be out right 'abusive' these blogs would Still be good for those daughters who grew up in QF where mother's didn't come to their rescue, etc, because those issues Will come up, later when that daughter is a mom. So it might not be a bad idea to have them as a resource. This one may not apply to most here, but I'm including it anyway, from Australia, Mother-Daughter Rape, can Feminists Face up to the Challenge www.secasa.com.au/index.php/workers/25/32One reason I am adding this, is because on the support groups, it's not just mothers/and other female abusers, babysitters, aunts, etc., that abuse, including lesbian abusers, but many shared the trauma of living with women caretakers who Knew about men abusing but who protected the men, and not the child, so...there's some good info here. ON emotional abuse, one I really love, because she goes into a lot about the Emotional abuse, and whether or not there has been sexual, one of the Strongest things, or issues, is the Abuse that is Control, which can be in many ways. faithallen.wordpress.com/the emotional abuse/ by either direct word attacks, patriarchal controls through women, e.g. policing, or like what you survived Musicmom, where it's the other side, the rejection of mother roles [what the Bible interestingly calls it, AFTER the men due to Patriarchal abuses/violence to women, eating their young, that is the line-cup of Iniquity, iniquity is Abuse!], anyway, the Lotus blog has several, women dealing/healing from the Emotional 'controls' including yes, emotional Incest, from Female Abusers/Neglect. I didn't have my father around after 6 to like, switch to and from, but I had two women, who well, I was the pawn between [my brother sad to say got it worse there and he has Real issues with hating women], anyway, many of the women on those support groups Did have similar situations, like what you share, so I hope, you find some solace and info, to assist in your recovery/healing in some of those... they help me, not like utopia but they help, a lot, it's I think, easier to work through those things with those who don't Deny there is mother-child abuse, which is one thing, I did run into a lot in the feminist groups, that really Did irk me to no end. Love, Jane -- addition, I wanted to say, after thinking about this, because I mentioned this before with the whole issue on raising children, one of the issues I have and still am dealing with, is how I passed on, not in the same way but through being or attempting to be not like my mother/environment, the Other extreme of the pole, to my oldest daughter. And this is something that well, I think will, no, I KNOW it will come up for many of you, years later. Even if the children don't say anything, doesn't mean, all is well. How to say this, ok well this is one reason I did, for me, find that God did a lot of healing not just for me but to heal me to where I could CUT the iniquity or begin to, the thread, that had connected to the children, especially the girls. This is the ONE thing, that I never had addressed, within the radical feminist/feminist groups, the humanist, the secularists, it was always the bad men, the patriarchy, but Never, not once, on how Women, also play a role in, and how we transfer so much toxic garbage to our daughters, even if, we are liberal. It's like two extremes, you have the policing/controlling the girls, then the other, the bird just fleeing the nest and letting the young ones sort of figure out themselves, but what I didn't expect, was the Rage that my oldest would have, for Letting her, have the freedom she had...and I'm not saying I didn't parent or set boundaries, but there is another set of Lies pushed by the 'there is no moral absolutes' mentality out there, that does a LOT of harm to yes, daughters, and sons. So like how to Weed through those and find a balance, NOT as easy as one would think, because of all the influences out there, not just for parents/women but for teens/peers. So anyway I think it IS good and healthy to be informed on the mother's role in Spite of patriarchy, and to know that the whole free love liberal alternatives aren't all they are cracked up to be either NOR are they without their own version of Misogyny and yes, patriarchy including Internalized misogyny. Adrienne Rich I believe wrote some good poetry and Audre Lorde on these issues. And ironically while feminism [the more separatist/radical/lesbian] did a lot of harm as far as I'm concerned, or at least they reminded me more of my mother--not that different from abusive Men, religious or not religious, the maternal/eco radical feminists helped me to find some balance, and heal, at least from that inner femme side. I'm not wording this right, not my area of focus usually, but the Hardest thing for me to come to grips with was that while I faced the RA in my life, I had transferred, a lot to my daughters yet on from the other side of the coin, and so now, we're all having to heal from Both poles. And I had to learn, that no matter what I do, or say, that my daughters, will sadly, have to learn many things on their own, so that means when I see them choosing some of the things that I am just like, oh no please don't go there, I can't, because they are free agents, human beings that will make their OWN decisions, and I, must respect, with guidance and love, their Right, to make those choices. So, being anti-patriarchal, is good, but there is a real danger, in pushing our daughters into the other extremes, which can not only be dangerous both spiritually and emotionally, but it can be down right Deadly. And don't think, the Predators, in the other 'camps', don't Know this, and it isn't just men, now a days, you got to watch women too. My daughter was lured into a very toxic relationship with an older bi woman, well both teens but still---the dangers are out there, and it was from there, that my daughter then got hooked up with a 30 something year old man who looked like he was 19, and my daughter hangs out with the good kids, you know, nice homes, good neighborhoods, etc. And some of them go to church--we can be So wrapped up in our anger towards patriarchy AND GOD, that we are ripe, for exploitation, from others who are Worse.
So, thought I'd throw that out there.
In solidarity,
Jane
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Post by km on Apr 16, 2010 16:09:53 GMT -5
I'm so sorry, MusicMom. This sounds awful.
By the way, the family relationships you describe remind me of my own family dynamic. I realized over the course of many years of therapy that my father had been "emotionally incestuous" with me, as my mother had been with my sister. I saw my dad as an ally at the time, but in reality, it's messed up for any parent to treat a child as an adult or de facto spouse.
Neither of them ever touched us in a sexual way, but they used as for things they could not get from each other--emotional support, encouragement, etc.
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Post by usotsuki on Apr 16, 2010 18:18:55 GMT -5
The first thing that popped into my mind from the last couple comments was the song "Alive" by Pearl Jam... (if you know what it's about -__-)
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em
Full Member
Posts: 176
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Post by em on Apr 16, 2010 20:36:34 GMT -5
Aw. *hugs* How horrible.
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Post by humbletigger on Apr 17, 2010 20:00:22 GMT -5
(((music mom))) My mother was both abused by patriarchy and an abuser. But as a kid, I didn't know that. All I saw was large doses of feminist ideology at the time. I thought that she rejected my sister and me (the twins) because feminism taught that children were a burden. Twins are double burdens. Now I know that she is incapable of love because she has NPD. The feminist movement simply provided her with a venue for mock heroism. The irony? Feminists actually helped save my butt by getting mom out of the home and giving her other venues for narcissitic supply. My life would have been a thousand times worse if she had been a SAHM! As a woman, I chose to be SAHM and even make a career out of it by home schooling as well. I wanted my children to KNOW they had value! They were worth my time and attention! But like daughters of NPD are prone to do, I married a man who would be emotionally distant and later abusive. My husband is getting help- has been diligently for a year and a half now. And while I wouldn't call him cured (how long will he have to be symptom free for that pronouncement?) cuz I think it's like alcoholism. If you think you're cured you fall right back into it. And no, I don't believe it has anything at all to do with my praying or having faith or anything else like that. If I have contributed anything, it is by being willing to leave. My feminist influence growing up paid off! ;D Incidentally, for anyone still practicing the Christian faith, Jon Zen just published an excellent, excellent book titled What's Up With Paul and Women? I hate patriarchy and complementarianism, the longest lasting and ugliest heresies to ever afflict the church.
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Post by km on Apr 18, 2010 8:40:03 GMT -5
Now I know that she is incapable of love because she has NPD. The feminist movement simply provided her with a venue for mock heroism. Well... My father has NPD as well. Diagnosed and everything (I point this out because I understand the diagnosis as such to be fairly rare, as many NPD individuals avoid psychotherapy.). In my own experience (which includes many different kinds of strategies focused on my own self-protection)... It's been most helpful to me to drastically reduce my expectations of my father. That means that I'm less vulnerable to being hurt and disappointed. But I wouldn't say that my father is "incapable of love" because he has NPD. Instead, I would say that he experiences love as much as he possibly can, that his experiences of love are often distorted because of his narcissism, and that his way of loving others can be harmful/abusive to the person who is loved. But "incapable of love" feels a bit too simplistic to me in thinking through my own experiences. Hope this isn't too much of a derail.
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Post by janedoe on Apr 18, 2010 11:37:22 GMT -5
RE: feminism
I just wanted to say, that I think, one of the areas we see a lot of turmoil and/or conflict with how feminism has either negatively or positively influenced us and often times both,
is that feminism in of itself like many 'good foundational' emancipation movements was Hijacked and Colonized by several non-friendly to women, even Patriarchal & Misogynist groups, who 'manipulated' and Still are, btw, feminism for their own political and/or social engineering agendas.
Actually I first became aware of just how much feminism was colonized when I was heavy into communism-socialism. I was doing some archival studies on women in socialism-communism because I was seeing just how much references to the history of revolutions were Always centered about men and their contributions, with only a few 'women' mentioned and usually the Wives of prominent men OR their lovers,
so I started to research. I pulled up tons of history, took some time however, from other countries of women who had been huge contributors [other than Rosa Luxembourg whom Lenin cheered once she was murdered] in both socialism, anarchism and communist movements and I had to look in translated documents from numerous countries. The studies/documents from the former Soviet weren't too difficult to find, I simply followed anything around Kollantie, Alexia, and Shockingly it was there that I would find major and Deliberate manipulations and betrayals to women/Feminism. BTW these Same Methodologies are still being used to influence young feminists in the West.
What I would also find out, is HOW many women, who actually did More to Contribute to the causes were Literally, and quite Cleverly, 'erased' or 'shelved' to the degree that unless one really Digs you'd never hear or know of these women--and Each one of those women, were Betrayed, by the very 'comrades' [men] and yes a few women who had Sold out women for Power. Not only were they betrayed AND the 'feminist causes' they Fought for,
they were often set up and murdered, or put in a position where they would be easily murdered or simply, made invisible to the public, over time through clever censuring of any writing these women may have done. Women from Cuba [one in particular who was Chi's assistant and most today have never heard of her--she was conveniently used and tossed aside] and one in Italy [who actually did survived and warned, died being very disillusioned], a couple in South Africa, numerous in France, all former Soviet Bloc countries, the Scandinavian countries, etc.
The ONLY women who seemed to have survived in someway still intact and loyal to feminism were those women who had strong ties still to ethnic nationalism, and there are some of those groups of women still in America [e.g. Radical Women] though I don't know really how strong of a momentum they have, I found that there tends to be within those groups more of a nationalist leaning, which then, goes Right back, to supporting or selling out to Patriarchal Nationalism. [the whole Mutter-land philosophy--with Stalinist bent]
What many don't realize that these influences are HUGE today within the Liberal and Humanist feminism, they may not come across that way but Behind the scenes there are the more powerful groups of people who work to see that these influences are there and like Marketing, they use the same marketing techniques that capitalists use for business.
These influences are from the 'international' socialists, some are yes, very good,
but within those international there has been numerous compromises with the Nationalist bent that are extremely patriarchal, therefore, what you get is a Face of liberal women centered feminism [and abortion is one of the huge marketing-and manipulative agendas they use BTW, see note at bottom] but behind that face is the machinery of a far worse patriarchy that does NOT ALLOW
for feminist-woman AUTONOMY, either group OR individual, ONCE there is a hegemony Any feminist [truly Autonomous pro-woman] group that is NOT willing to sacrifice the emancipation goals for women to be FREE FROM MALE ENTITLEMENTS TO THEIR BODIES/SEXUAL DEMANDS AND LABOR] will be
as they so put it, 'disposed of' when no longer necessary to the goals.
By the time feminists [those who are working toward women's emancipation in numerous areas] Realize this...it's a catch 22, this is why many in Sweden for example did break off into their own however, there simply is not the support and once that generations dies off, they become sadly, forgotten and irrelevant. That however, is exactly how the engineers plan it...
these engineers are your higher echelons in social infrastructure development and academia [yes believe it or not] and within the sciences [those who work with government] and Economics, Resources, and it IS
GLOBAL.
Many 'THINK' they have autonomy but really they are simply puppets-Marionettes, having their strings pulled and they DON'T, EVEN REALIZE IT.
IF you want Evidence of this, all one has to do is look at how Grass Roots Autonomous 'feminist' groups in numerous countries are singled out and targeted for extermination [and they use sexual violence/terror to silence them, targeting the more vocal and diligent abolitionists, anti-patriarchal that is] OR
they simply out voice them, through Pacifying through 'policy', and this is actually more powerful in that many women buy into the being pacified hook, line and sinker, believing they have arrived at a level of equality and freedom when in fact,
they've been cleverly manipulated into a passive 'compliance' and acceptance. And yes, they engineers are Experts, at using psychology, social psychology in manipulating the masses with these policies. It is a LABYRINTH that women are fighting,
with numerous 'feminist' groups actually working to Assist that LABYRINTH because they have gotten some power/AND pacification, power corrupts absolutely,
and have sold out, numerous women to fight or suffer on their own.
For those of you who may not think this possible, I would suggest you do some reading, on the obstacles of De-Colonization in continents such as Africa,
because it's really the same methodology, that was used to keep the Africans under colonization. Not just the imperialists mind you,
but the Marxists 'nationalists' and the Maoists, State Capitalists really is what they are--or what I would term as Patriarchal via State Feudalistic with a 'socialist' face.
That is why you have the dichotomies within feminism today, and well prior to, the Hijacking and Colonization of feminism goes Way back...
and I can Guarantee you, the more the Ex-Religious patriarchal allies with the secular HEGEMONY the more they too, will become
COLONIZED.
And don't think, for a minute, that this isn't already in process, OR planned that way, because it sure as hell is...this is Why,
there are numerous Grass Roots AUTONOMOUS FEMINIST GROUPS that do NOT align, with in any form or manner, with
media, with political or secular institutions [same with grass roots labor groups] because you see,
the engineers LOOK and SEARCH OUT for what is term the 'disgruntled', to further their overall agenda,
while I realize many of you will think this is conspiracy, or right wing [and I'll get into that here in bit] it is not,
I know, because for Years I worked within that LABYRINTH, on the lower rung but still, I worked with them, and this is how they work...the more I got into and was working my way up the more I saw it. I'm referring to the 'behind the scenes' engineers that you would Think are just the 'fringe' but they are far from Fringe,
far from being just fringe--that's the Illusion they want you to believe.
Now, regarding the right wing--they too, work very similar to the fringe of the left/secular, and they too, will hijack and colonize, yes even feminism.
What is more strange is how some in both poles, will work toward similar goals Together and ally themselves, Particularly where women are concerned,
so my point is, feminism today [and well I would say really since the 60s and late 50s] is a type of merger really of numerous political and social agendas that having hijacked/and colonized numerous feminist and Gender Studies [gender studies has been Extremely hijacked by the intelligentsia of these other 'State patriarchal and Misogynist groups--particularly those who oppose AUTONOMY].
Some forms of liberal and maternal and Eco-feminism are a real threat simply because they are more Autonomous, meaning, they believe in a woman's right to All autonomy, that she have Rights to Reproductive Rights, not just abortion rights, that she has Right to decide whether or not to be het or lesbian, that she has Right to decide to marry or not, to be a mother or not,
as an Individual, not as a 'cog' in the machine.
ON the other hand however, and here's the clincher, these more 'liberal' groups have Also been colonized/hijacked but in a more sinister and actually harder to tell way, by the pro-sex groups [which are Also, part of that whole hegemony] because those are tied into the Commerce, of commodification of women,
and it's both Right and Left wing there, and you really see this in trafficking IF you follow the MONEY TRAIL, of where the monies from the sale of women/children go,
to either arms, drugs that go into arms and for guerrilla and other forms of warfare OR for business...tourism and banking. You really see the connection if you research global feminism,
because Those women, those who do NOT have the power that we do in the West, are fighting both fronts.
You just don't hear about them [and don't think that isn't deliberate] unless they are of the 'nationalist' bent, for those nationalist propaganda, etc..
People just 'assume' that on-line it's only just individuals with opinions, WRONG,
while there is that, yes, there ARE those, who work in a type of I suppose you could call it, psyops/marketing, who target autonomous, emancipation, abolitionist, groups WHO get a large
AUDIENCE.
They don't bother with the odd individual here and there, no,
because they aren't a threat, [though if that individual gets too many readers well then, why several anarchists have been well, taken care of, I guess you could say--left anarchists as well as your right wing kind],
and here's how you can tell. IF you, lets say a group is going after certain 'individuals' or 'agencies' that those in lets say, the higher echelons Want to rid of, you're fine...
the Minute, you begin to confront other forms of patriarchal abuses, Particularly porn/trafficking and it's relation, Rape, rape is a huge one esp if one is going after institutional 'rapes' and the minute you don't just target only certain groups,
they'll come on the attack, from rape threats, death threats, threats to your self, children, they especially target children, etc., till they psychologically terrorize you into silence or shutting down,
IF you are getting a huge readership that is. The minute you Compromise,
you're safe,
for the time being.
And that is the problem with feminism today...what was termed as Backlash, sadly today, could be termed, Colonization and selling out.
But the selling out, wasn't really a selling out--but just how the engineering worked and quite well I might say,
which is Why yes, you had mothers, women, who turned on their children, don't think for a minute, that these were just NPD, that is a Part of it, yes,
but do some looking into the rates of NPD today and where those me, me, me came from, the whole I'm OK and You're OK kind of 'philosophies',
think it's just coincidence?
Hardly--and of course, now it's drug them into a state of stupor, so they Don't even 'feel' any pain to question anything,
the perfect 'sheep' just ready for the slaughter.
Or drones, either way,
read Camus "Algeria Unveiled", it's a good observation of how Women, have been manipulated, quite cleverly, through colonization.
there are various forms of Imperialism, and the worst, women will find themselves up against,
is the misogynist imperialists on All sides of the political wheel and what many don't get,
is that there for Years, Decades even on both sides of the political and Secular [yes including humanism] poles, there are WOMEN, not just men, but WOMEN, self proclaimed FEMINISTS,
who have been nothing more than Parrots for the Machinery of Misogynist Totalitarianism...
Mary Daly touched on this a lot, but there I believe, is another form of colonization, that is more sinister, harder to see, that is also working,
and you See the fruits of it, in cases of female to female abuse. It's not just NPD or Patriarchal 'damages' or Internalization's, sure that's a Huge part of it,
but it IS a social psychological manipulation, controls, that have and still are, working to perfection,
those who Question it, are labeled crazy, unstable, unbalanced what have you...
but remember something,
look at the women raped, butchered in numerous countries, who said the Same exact thing, going on today,
were they Wrong?
Cross study, you'll see it, if you take the time to really research, follow the Money Trail, the Power Trail, and the connections Globally--with a historical analysis.
Not only will you see it, you'll see Just how many women, were set up, who Thought, they were fighting among those who supported Women's Autonomy, and those women were killed, erased and/or
shelved, in some archive somewhere, and unless you Dig to find them, you would never know they existed or said anything, you'd never know, what they WARNED....all women, to pay heed to. Especially those women, who fought, patriarchy and injustice along side those she thought were comrades but who were really Foes.
In solidarity,
Jane
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Post by lg61820 on Apr 18, 2010 13:22:11 GMT -5
MusicMom, When I read, "So I had found the winning combination: attach yourself to a man and learn to please him for your emotional survival" Shivers ran down my spine.
I left my husband 6 years ago, but I live only about 6 blocks away and have not yet obtained a divorce. We see each other several times a week to arrange care for the grandchildren and take the grandchildren on outings together. We are friendly and trust one another but we will never reconcile.
I couldn't figure out why I can't divorce him, but that one sentence may help me. I thought it was because I took that for better or worse part of the vows seriously due to my own fundy background. But recently I've wondered if I won't end it with him because I don't have someone to take his place emotionally. If so, that embarrasses the feminist in me and brings me to tears.
Thanks for sharing your story and providing me much food for thought!
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Post by sargassosea on Apr 19, 2010 7:22:27 GMT -5
Musicmom – Boy howdy, your mom is starting to sound a lot like mine… Feminism appealed to my mom, I think, because she never really wanted a partner and kids – she wanted to do whatever she wanted whenever she wanted to do it and, as we women know, being born a girl doesn’t exactly rocket us out into the big wide world. It also appealed to her because it was what all the Cool Kids were doing. She’d started back to college in her early 40s and the campus was alive with young women working for the ERA. That atmosphere allowed her to kind of re-live her youth but also allowed her to be in a position of power by virtue of her age – likewise, the younger women benefited from having her around because she had money and transportation, etc. NPD – I’ve suspected for some time that my mom is also a sufferer and of course she’s not interested in my suggestion of mom/daughter counseling because all of our problems are my fault! Gee, I wonder why I grew up thinking I couldn’t do anything right? Janedoe – I’m glad you bring up the issue of colonization and especially on the Left – it’s something that gets pushed behind the curtain because the colonists don’t want women to see them for what they are. I call them Liberal Dood (the women of their numbers, too) because it’s all about the wonderful progressive things we should be doing for the People of the world – destroy capitalism! Stop the wars! Fair working wages and conditions! Abolish the death penalty! - all worthy goals to be sure… Unless, of course, those People are women and girls. They’ll just have to wait (another few centuries maybe?) because there are more important things to do – there are some men out there suffering and we must start with them because men matter more.
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Post by janedoe on Apr 19, 2010 13:57:46 GMT -5
Unless, of course, those People are women and girls. They’ll just have to wait (another few centuries maybe?) because there are more important things to do – there are some men out there suffering and we must start with them because men matter more.
Oh my gosh Beautiful! Where were you when I could have So needed to hear that back in the day, LOL? You are So right, sargassosea, you know the last anti-war protest I attended, I went representing the Women, both Civilian [Iraq/Afghanistan] AND the Women in OUR Armed Forces who are raped, horribly with men getting by with it with Total Impunity [what they call command rape/men also get raped/those deemed weak, inferior, etc--it's a Huge problem and Pentagon has had the case on dockets for some time now], but anyway, I mean, even the women there, it's like, I don't know if it's just this mentality that Women are just to accept this crap or what, but Yea I ran into that mentality ALL the time, be it anti-war or labor [esp labor Unless it's of course, let's rally the women oh you know because they too are workers, just don't mention Unpaid domestic labor, , it's like, duh, what's that? ] and I can't Count the times so called radical, progressive MEN would say, well that's Just how it's always been and well Women will have to change that? Like, #%#%%%#%#% you know, it was one of the Most infuriating things to always run into that... but you know it was Worse, getting this mentality from Progressive/Radical WOMEN, That one, That one to this Day, I just don't get, and especially the younger women, I just don't get it, maybe it's just they don't recognize gender oppression or the culture, I think a lot of it IS the media culture, especially music/movies. [you know the heroine but Always the heroine that really likes to be 'taken by force' by a stronger man or Vampire, the new trend or the Beast or what have you...or she's strong but Ooooh has the baseball size breasts with the shorts that how she runs in them, beats me, Ouch!] I really see this in my daughter's generation [14-17] and sometimes I cry, sometimes I just think, oh my gosh...I just don't know., maybe I should just give it up and just drink myself into a stupor? [it's in my blood though so dang, even if I wanted, to not protest, arrrrrgh] And you bring up a good one on capitalism too, I actually can't stand a lot about Capitalism, BUT.... here's the clincher on that one, or I guess better term, the double edged sword where women and children are concerned [though I don't in Any way, know where to even BEGIN with answers or solutions] when I was researching/writing on the cotton slavery [children/Uzbekistan and other nations] where a lot or majority of our cotton comes from, that and the Blood Chocolate, you know if we End all those labors, and they Should be ended at Least the exploitation of and the raping of resources... but the thing is, like the Labor and so forth, it's like they STOP there, but What happens, when those children/women have then no Work or way to feed themselves? Then they are ripe for a Worse exploitation--trafficking into sex and domestic slavery. And what is frustrating is that Those true life problems are NOT dealt with--within those circles, it's like, analysis of the problems, but with short sighted solutions, I wonder, really, if that is the fact that we don't Have a Woman Centered Economics in the world, i.e. feminist or woman centered economics? Because it seems like, when women Do come together and start joining forces, to form coops and micro-businesses, like with other feminism, they then also get Hijacked by none other than 'big benevolent brother' corporations, etc. It's just a dang double edged sword really. You know what blew me away, when I started getting really into the whole Indie Homemade, was looking into Etsy, which not Knocking it o.k., but, when I found, all these women, great work, you know, I so concur with it, but it's MEN who, have benefited from the profits, a percentage off of every woman's sales, at least from what I have read, I don' t have confirmation on this, but Wall-street Men [they did same with daycare in NY from what I read years ago], and I find that a tad ironic....how women's labor, especially that considered inferior or domestic [esp in Arts, which they deem as crafts, a term I won't use, it's ART, just as Intelligent as any ART form, something Women need to take Back], anyway, how those things, deemed inferior Labor, by the Patriarchy--they sure don't seem to mind, when Women begin to Build-Form a Powerful Hegemony of Independent and Autonomous Economic Power, it's MEN then who want to get their hands in the cookie jar and then Reap Profits from it...of course, with them at the head of the ship. I always wondered about that one. I don't mind working egalitarian, but why is it it always seems, that it's in word, egalitarian, but in the end, it's women, with men holding the reigns? [and those few women who assist them] And that may well be why Change, really will have to come to the micro for it to really change in the Macro, I wonder about that, a lot. In solidarity, Jane
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Post by musicmom on Apr 20, 2010 12:38:47 GMT -5
Hey everyone Many thanks for the comments - you have all given me so much to think about. It just feels so darned good to tell a story like this and be heard - really be heard. Not that anyone can change the past for me - as much as we'd all love to do that for each other - but I swear it's healing for me just to tell this and have your loving responses. I have been so busy with school lately and gotten into some serious on-the-side reading (Jane, ordered "The Creation of Patriarchy" that you mentioned as well as Andrea Dworkin's "Right Wing Women") and I'm wishing I could just hole up and do a few years of my own self-directed study in feminism and the history of women's struggle. I am learning a lot and it is really helping explain a lot of the feelings I struggle with now - why, as a single mom, I feel this kind of shame from the rest of society, as if I'm not a respectable woman anymore, now that I'm not under a man...Things like that , that I really didn't understand. Setting myself apart from my mother's feminism - or whatever it was, maybe that was just a front - really did set me back about 1000 years as far as knowing when I was being abused or taken advantage of. I have a LOT of catching up to do, but I do feel myself to be getting stronger. Keep those suggestions coming!! I will check out that Pearl Jam song - thanks. Jane - mulling over your responses. Makes me realize how much I still have to learn. Anyway, I'm glad you all appreciated the story. As I told Vyckie, it didn't seem totally NLQish in its theme, but hopefully you all could kind of see where it was leading me (no where good!). Peace to all
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Post by grandmalou on Apr 20, 2010 18:21:10 GMT -5
Sargassosea, I just finished reading a book on this subject...NPD. I didn't know that was what it was called, what my mom had, but WOW! The book opened my eyes...seems we can also carry this crap over into our own lives with our own daughters...and the book can help us recognize the characteristics...YIKES! Vyckie, Sandy, if I got 'em, please tell me! The book, which I think EVERY abused woman needs to read, is: "Will I Ever be Good Enough?" Healing the daughters of narcissistic mothers by Karyl McBride, Ph. D, who also has a website. "NPD – I’ve suspected for some time that my mom is also a sufferer and of course she’s not interested in my suggestion of mom/daughter counseling because all of our problems are my fault! Gee, I wonder why I grew up thinking I couldn’t do anything right?"
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Post by krwordgazer on Apr 21, 2010 0:39:57 GMT -5
Musicmom, my heart goes out to you. I related to my dad kind of like that, too. *hugs*
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Post by humbletigger on Apr 21, 2010 12:34:35 GMT -5
My mom is not diagnosed NPD, because of course nothing is wrong with her, she's perfect! I have read widely on the subject (just finished Will I Ever Be Good Enough? Great read.) so when I write that my mom is incapable of love that is exactly what I meant to write. Experts now propose that there is a continuum of narcissism; that both biological and environmental factors affect the development of NPD; and that for some there CAN BE improvement with treatment. Those "some" are the ones low enough on the continuum to SEEK treatment. I am glad for the poster whose father is included in this lucky group. My mom is not in that group. She will never seek treatment. Since *I* diagnosed her as NPD and modified my expectations and behavior in accordance, my relationship (such that it is) has improved dramaticallly. Not all my sisters agree with the label. The more enmeshed sisters have a hard time accepting that. But we all agree that my mom is incapable of love, or hasn't ever truly loved anyone ever that we know of and we do not expect that to change now that she is in her seventies. For other grown daughters suspecting that might be the case, the book GrandmaLou recommended is a great place to start. I also like Children of the Self-Absorbed.
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