em
Full Member
Posts: 176
|
Post by em on Feb 28, 2010 14:16:44 GMT -5
It's not surprising that at 23 I find it immensely difficult to live without my mother's approval. From your post I see that this is probably a lifelong impulse. Sometimes I think it's weird how much I can relate to your posts, Sierra, considering we didn't grow up in similary ways at all. But yeah, mommybunny's post kinda gave me that realization too. Might as well suck it up and get used to it, because it's never going to end I guess. And thanks for sharing, mommybunny. It's helpful to know you can still get on, and even have better relationships with your own children (not that I want any kids, but it does give me hope that maybe someday I'll have some good relationships).
|
|
maicde
Junior Member
Posts: 69
|
Post by maicde on Feb 28, 2010 15:09:17 GMT -5
"Radical, pro-abortion feminist" is a term made up by men who hate women and want to keep them in their place: under the thumb and dominion of other men. I've never understood men who need to control other people (especially women) in order to bring themselves up. It's too bad that some women have unfortunately fallen for that line and have turned against their sisters and womanhood in general when they throw out such words which are not only untrue, but very hurtful.
Women have a nurturing and loving side to them that allows deep connections to others (their children, their parents, their spouses, friends, etc.) I find it despicable that there are those that are so threatened by this natural connection that they come up with hate speech that is meant to degrade and demonize.
My experience with posting on large family boards with SOME Christian fundamentalist/QF women has not been positive for the most part . I have found that most large family boards which were designed to give support, friendship, and encouragement for those with larger than average families are eventually taken over by the QF and/or fundamentalist women because quite frankly, people get tired of getting attacked and being made to feel like the villain. I am constantly amazed that so-called "God-loving"women could possibly be so mean and vindictive towards other women who are going through many similiar things as it pertains to raising children.
I started posting on several large family boards when my sixth child was born almost 12 years ago. At first, the boards were filled with women from various religions or no religion and as time went on, I starting seeing less and less women coming on to post and instead saw the same posters almost "wanting" a heated discussion and debate and a reason to attack someone. They reminded me of the Valasa raptors on "Jurassic Park", where one raptor didn't come in for a kill, rather, they called the other valasa raptors and they surrounded their prey before the attack. That's exactly how vindictive and hateful I saw a few of the extreme posters on the large family boards and unfortunately, they all happened to be extreme QF/fundamentalists. If you weren't one of them, you were against them and they made it known. It would be amazing how there would be days that they never showed up, but were apparently lurking in the shadows because the minute a poster that they didn't like would show up and post, they would make a mountain of an innocent molehill so that they could attack.
Another thing I found true of these women is that they could dish it out but couldn't take it back. "They" were allowed to say anything to anyone, they could attack any group or individual with absolutely hateful things, and it was all justified and okay because they were the righteous, holier than thou ones and everyone else was wrong. Bottom line is that these groups still exist, but all the wonderful women that used to post are all gone and who knows where they're at now.
I think this thread and others are good for many women (of all ages) because quite frankly, a lot of women who have been involved in the movement need a safe place to come to decompress. I think that some might be surprised to know that there are plenty of women like me, who have not been directly involved in QF, but know of QF, who have reached out to another woman with a large family, looking for friendship, fellowship, support - and have been made to feel "less than" because we are not allowed to speak our own heart and thoughts because if they are different, then we are called "radical, pro-abortion, feminists." Bottom line is that unless you tow their fundamentalist line - hook, line, and sinker, then you're not as good or as worthy.
Once again, I find it difficult to believe that woman would do this to another woman if not for the patriarchal system which encourages this type of behavior. Quite frankly, I doubt that the authoritative/patriarchal system would continue and thrive if not for the fact that it pits woman against woman and makes one woman feel superior over the next. I still can't believe how many women are still falling for this....maybe some will read this site and posts and achieve their "ah-ha" moment before they become fully entrenched in it. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
|
|
|
Post by ambrosia on Feb 28, 2010 15:18:40 GMT -5
The only commandment of the Ten Commandments that came with a promise was the fifth one: “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land.” God gives you and me the power to shorten or lengthen our physical lives. Life is not all static, set, and predetermined. Though man alone cannot change the date of his death, there are things man can do that will cause God to change it. What you do with your life determines what God does with your death. How amazed we may all be when we get to heaven to find that someone lived far longer than he would have lived because he honored his parents.This message not only defines and illustrates honor and obedience, but it also graphically demonstrates how a person can use them to shorten or lengthen his life. Your children will never forget the changing dates on the tombstones on this dramatic video!Wow! The "secular" presentations of the 10 commandments usually only give the main points, in this case, the honouring bit, not the part about living long. When I did finally get around to reading the Bible, I just took it as the companion sentiment to the admonition to stone disobedient children. I had no idea that it could be--and is--used as spiritual blackmail.
|
|
|
Post by mommybunny1 on Feb 28, 2010 19:41:42 GMT -5
After reading Vykie's story on Salon, I came over here to learn more. I felt a kinship with al of you who have lived through a lifestyle that is on the surface, quite different from mine. It took a long time for me to post. I felt like I was an outsider who did not belong. But I did post and many of the members have been very kind.
Sierra and Em surprised and delighted me because you actually 'get' why I belong here. Many of the details are different, but the effect of being cloistered and put into an unwinnable situation are very much the same. In fact, the underlying motivation is the same. It is the role of women as stated in the Old Testament. It is Patriarchy.
It is so important for NLQ to have a voice that is heard. On first blush, it is a story of how a small group of people were led astray. But it is more than that. Because patriarchy is part of the underpinnings of all Abrahamic religions, your stories will ring in the ears of mainstream religionists. It is true that most churches and synagogues champion women's rights. Many have allowed women in the clergy. But it is not enough. Progressive congregations turn a blind eye to these movements. Since they are under the Judeo-Christian umbrella, they are supported. (and yes, there are extreme Jewish groups who let G-d do their family planning as well. And yes, women do have to submit to their husbands.)
Thank you all so much for helping me understand so much more about society and about how religion shapes our world.
|
|
phatchick
Junior Member
Medicated for Your Protection
Posts: 80
|
Post by phatchick on Feb 28, 2010 22:05:20 GMT -5
MusicMom... it hurt to read your introduction, as this is exactly what I'd be afraid of happening, should I ever have children. I often ask myself, if after sustaining so much damage from my days in fundamentalism, I could raise a child who would not grow up to hate everything I stand for because I am incapable of loving a child adequately. It's a question that haunts me even though I'm under no pressure to have a child... I've never wanted any (nor does my partner), and when I think through the details I still don't, but the nagging sense that I'd raise a militant fundamentalist follows me... Truly, that was one of the reasons I don't have children. I honestly don't feel, after my fundy upbringing, that I have much to offer in the way of motherhood. I feared I would damage my kids as badly as I was and while my parents weren't nearly as bad as some I've heard of on this and other boards, I still wouldn't wish how I grew up on anyone.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Mar 1, 2010 1:52:21 GMT -5
Mommybunny, your story wrings my heart. Whatever "honor" means, it can't mean having to be a mirror reflection of everything your parents are and believe. It's so hard when you know with your mind that you're not a failure, but those messages your parents gave you aren't going away. I found that over time, by continuing to repeat to myself the truth I knew with my mind, emotional messages from my parents did eventually fade. I did want to say something about this: The Old Testament affected me in many ways just as it has affected you. This is why I question my faith. We have been abused. The Bible was used to abuse children and marginalize women. The words are in there. We can study and mince words and try to interpret it from the point of view of language and human understanding at its writing or/and translations. But the words are there. I am afraid to completely throw away the belief in this G-d we have. And yet, I am really having difficulty worshipping this being. If you're clinging to belief in God only out of fear, it seems to me that a god you believe in only because you're afraid not to, is too small to be the real God. I think that if there is a real God at all, we must seek what has been called "the God beyond god"-- that is, a concept of God that goes beyond the narrow understandings we were given. I'm not saying this to try to convince anyone there's a God or isn't a God-- but if you find yourself drawn to belief in God, then what you're looking for has to be beyond human comprehension anyway-- and certainly at least as much beyond the comprehension of those tribes in the desert of Sinai as God is beyond our own comprehension here and now. Here's a link to some thinking about God which has been helpful to me. Take note that the author is dyslexic (though he has a Master's in theology), so don't let the occasional spelling error put you off. But if you are interested in looking deeper into theology, you might find this interesting. I know I came to a point in my life where I knew I had to move beyond the thinking about God that I had been taught. The author's perspective is liberal/neo-orthodox Christian, but he also values other religions. www.doxa.ws/Theology/My_theo.htmlDisclaimer to anyone who doesn't believe in any god and feels no need or desire to: I'm not posting this to start a debate over theism here or to try to convince anyone to think like me, ok? I just thought it might be helpful to people who do believe in God and don't necessarily want to stop believing, but are finding the way they've been believing to be less than helpful.
|
|
em
Full Member
Posts: 176
|
Post by em on Mar 1, 2010 13:28:46 GMT -5
MusicMom... it hurt to read your introduction, as this is exactly what I'd be afraid of happening, should I ever have children. I often ask myself, if after sustaining so much damage from my days in fundamentalism, I could raise a child who would not grow up to hate everything I stand for because I am incapable of loving a child adequately. It's a question that haunts me even though I'm under no pressure to have a child... I've never wanted any (nor does my partner), and when I think through the details I still don't, but the nagging sense that I'd raise a militant fundamentalist follows me... Truly, that was one of the reasons I don't have children. I honestly don't feel, after my fundy upbringing, that I have much to offer in the way of motherhood. I feared I would damage my kids as badly as I was and while my parents weren't nearly as bad as some I've heard of on this and other boards, I still wouldn't wish how I grew up on anyone. I don't know why I didn't comment on this before, but I couldn't agree more. One of, maybe the, biggest reasons I don't want kids is this. I don't think I'd be a good mom. I'm not patient. I'm kind of an obnoxious know it all who corrects others too much. Too often I'd rather just be left alone and not have to deal with someone else's drama or problems. I'm always stressed and feeling like I don't have time to do everything that needs done, and if I had a kid I honestly would go crazy with having to add constantly caring for it on top of everything I have to deal with now. I'd always be worried sick and anxious over the kid. I'm usually depressed, and I wouldn't want my kid growing up knowing there's something wrong with mommy but there's nothing you can do to fix it the way I did (my mom has MS, and for what it's worth I think this would be worse for my kid than it was for me, because I could see feeling somewhat responsible for depression or for not being able to help it whereas I know there's nothing I could do to fix/help my mom's MS). And I don't know, but I just feel like if I know any kid I have would just end up growing up at least a little miserable, and for reasons that are my fault, I just feel like I should not have any kids. I'm perfectly fine with my adorable new nephew (all the good parts, none of the dirty diapers or responsibility. hehe).
|
|
|
Post by purpleshoes on Mar 1, 2010 13:55:28 GMT -5
You know, I know there are a variety of opinions on abortion in the world and in this forum, but this is always one of the places where I took comfort from being a pro-choice child: my mother is ambivalent about children (she was the oldest of a non-contracepting Catholic family and was expected to care for the children until she got married, which she did young because there was no longer room for her in the house - so she had enough of babies young in life) and didn't particularly enjoy the work of caring for young children, but I always remind her that she thought about having an abortion and she chose us, just the same as she chose to get a degree in this field instead of that field and move to our state instead of Colorado or France, and that everyone makes decisions and accepts the consequences. The key is to choose, and to take ownership of the consequences. I know all mothers love their children, regardless of how they got here - but in my own life, I always feel reassured that I didn't just happen to my family - they decided.
|
|
|
Post by purpleshoes on Mar 1, 2010 13:57:04 GMT -5
hah, remind her and myself, I mean. Because no mother-daughter relationship is free of conflict, and I don't know if anyone ever takes a path in life without wondering about the could-have-beens - but my mother is a good parent and I love her deeply.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Mar 9, 2010 16:59:55 GMT -5
Haven't had time to read all the comments, but oh my, the OPs story? I had to hear how my twin sister and I were conceived through condoms, spermicide and a diaphragm!
My mom ranted on and on about hating motherhood and men, and I for many years blamed feminism for my mom's rejection of my sisters and me.
Now I know my mom is mental, and I actually think the only way life could've been worse for me is if my mom had stayed home and home schooled us! Feminism wasn't the reason my mom is mental, it was just a convenient banner to wave to justify her hard heart.
She waved any banner that would suit her ends. Single, divorced and on the prowl on one hand- attending patriarchal fundamentalist church that upheld her AUTHORITAY over her children on enough Sundays to be part of that crowd too. The lives never overlapped, and if they had she just would've changed churches.
But I digress. Her rejection is exactly why I chose to be a SAHM and home educator. I nursed and nurtured my babies all the way.
Thankfully I avoided the rabid pro-life crowd, got my tubes tied after #2, and read Dr. Sears and Penelope Leach instead of the Pearls (yuck!) and Ezzo.
And I have decided to let feminism off the hook for my mom, though it still gets a knee-jerk reaction out of me at times to hear that word.
(Feminst! Fem-in-ist. feminist feminist feminist. Just practicing. =)
|
|
nora
New Member
Posts: 2
|
Post by nora on Mar 17, 2010 13:55:38 GMT -5
Well, I had to hear how I wasn't supposed to have been conceived because "they" told my mother she couldn't get pregnant if she was breastfeeding, and how I was alternately, depending on her mood, God's "joke" on her or God's punishment for her.
I wish she'd embraced feminism. I wish she'd done anything but either lie in bed all day or sit in the window seat chainsmoking.
Hell, even a bad mother would have been better than a completely depressed mother.
And the reason she was depressed? Because she, like so many Irish Catholic women at the time, were forced into pregnancy after pregnancy by men who drank, were abusive, cared more about their immediate sexual gratification than their wives' health, and who simultaneously told their wives it was the women's fault for enticing their menfolk into the evils of sex -- even though they were married.
If the women went to the Church for guidance, they were given the cold shoulder and told it was their fault for not praying for their husbands, or it was their Catholic duty to stay home and make babies for the Church.
I don't know much about this quiverfull nonsense, but I do know the only reason to have a child ever is because you want one, are prepared to be a parent, and because you are committed to being there for that child.
My husband, too, grew up in a too-large Catholic family with an alcoholic, abusive father. He was neglected and forgotten most of the time because there were just too many kids, too few resources, and parents who weren't prepared for parenthood.
We chose to have two children, to be true parents to them, to provide for them on all levels, and to raise them to be independent, free-thinking adults.
We would never visit the kind of emotional coldness and physical neglect upon them that our parents, knowingly or not, visited on us.
|
|