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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 11, 2010 10:35:19 GMT -5
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Post by sisof9 on Mar 11, 2010 11:39:04 GMT -5
I am so sorry, K.
I sent you a message with all I wanted to say, but I am really sorry you felt you had to build a stone wall around yourself. Parents are supposed to keep kids safe, not make them feel in need of protection.
I'll say what I said again - at the heart of QF mindset in essentially selfishness. It's seeing a mission and not caring who you hurt in the interim. At least the QF mindsets represented thus far here.
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Post by journey on Mar 11, 2010 12:43:11 GMT -5
((((((hugs))))))
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Post by debrand on Mar 11, 2010 14:17:58 GMT -5
Somewhat off topic, the slogan do hard things causes me to giggle. It has such obvious sexual connotations that I wonder why the Harris brothers are using it for their movement.
Back on topic
Due to what I think was borderline personality disorder, my mother was abusive. Like the writer of this article, I learned to control my own emotions. Because my mother's emotions could be harmful to us kids, I had to concentrate on keeping her calm. So, I rarely acknowledge my own feelings.
For years, I didn't understand why some people had a need to cry. Unless I was angry, I simply did not cry. It is surprising how similar some of these stories are to my own upbringing and yet my mother wasn't a religious fanatic, she just had a mental disorder.
I think that is what bothers me so much about these stories. The almost exact harm that was done to me during my childhood is being done against other children, not because their parents are crazy but because of religion.
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Post by rosa on Mar 11, 2010 14:29:37 GMT -5
People can be crazy and religious at the same time. I wonder how much of the bad stuff we're seeing is the combination of mental illness with doctrines of faith healing/avoiding psychiatric help.
Kiery, your parents were very selfish. Lots of parents I know go to churches they don't agree with 100%, or live in neighborhoods they aren't 100% happy with, to give their kids the stability of established church, friend, and school relationships. Your parents chose not to, and it's not fair.
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Hillary
Full Member
"Quivering Daughters ~ Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy" Now Available!
Posts: 129
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Post by Hillary on Mar 11, 2010 16:42:03 GMT -5
{{{Kiery}}} I can so relate to all of this, especially the church aspect. We went through the same cycle. Go for awhile, big disagreement, leave. Thanks for writing this. I know it will touch many. <3
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Post by dangermom on Mar 11, 2010 21:41:23 GMT -5
Can someone more familiar with the fundamentalist world explain to me the connection between the Harris brothers and QF philosophy? I was under they impression that they are going around encouraging teenagers--girls and boys both-- to "do hard things" like helping the poor and needy or getting involved in the political process instead of spending all their time at the mall, which doesn't strike me as something that needs lampooning. Am I missing something?
All that aside, your experience is a rotten way to grow up and I'm so sorry you had so little solidity in your upbringing.
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Post by usotsuki on Mar 11, 2010 22:33:46 GMT -5
People can be crazy and religious at the same time. I wonder how much of the bad stuff we're seeing is the combination of mental illness with doctrines of faith healing/avoiding psychiatric help. Prolly most of it... or perhaps organized religion turns gullible people into "religiots".
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Post by kiery on Mar 11, 2010 23:54:22 GMT -5
I used to be a mod on The Reb forums, and while Alex and Brett don't condone QFness alot of the girls on there have that mindset. Anyway, the reason it's in the title, is 'cause I was a part of it, and in a way, my life kinda was the definition of DHT.
/edit for clarity
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Post by margybargy on Mar 12, 2010 10:24:49 GMT -5
People can be crazy and religious at the same time. I wonder how much of the bad stuff we're seeing is the combination of mental illness with doctrines of faith healing/avoiding psychiatric help. One of the reasons that I think religion is so dangerous is that you don't have to be grounded in reality at all. You can justify your choices with Bible quotes. Most people won't even bat an eye unless things get really bad. No need to worry about results or consequences (especially to other people). Bad things that happen as a result of your choices are attributed to Satan or God testing you. Multiply that by billions of people and....oh no. I think religion can be beneficial for those who are able to strike a balance between their faith-based beliefs and reality. The vast majority of people find a way to reconcile what's right and healthy with their religion. But there are plenty of others who simply can't do that for whatever reason: mental illness, abuse, lack of alternatives.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 12, 2010 11:04:50 GMT -5
Can someone more familiar with the fundamentalist world explain to me the connection between the Harris brothers and QF philosophy? I was under they impression that they are going around encouraging teenagers--girls and boys both-- to "do hard things" like helping the poor and needy or getting involved in the political process instead of spending all their time at the mall, which doesn't strike me as something that needs lampooning. Am I missing something? As Kiery's story progresses, the reason for having "Do Hard Things" in the title will be very clear. And while I agree that the Harris brothers have a good idea and the best of intentions ~ to encourage high standards and doing "hard things" ~ the underlying premise is the whole "fallacy of the teenager" idea which does not allow for normal questioning of parents' values. It is ironic that they are promoting a "rebelution" in which the "rebellion" means NOT rebelling ~ it's about accepting and embracing your parents' fundamentalist Christian values and being wholehearted and even "radical" in taking action based upon an extremist belief system. So when, for instance, the Rebelution encourages young people to get involved in political campaigns ~ they are presenting opportunities to work for political candidates such as Mike Huckabee. When Angel responded to their call for campaign workers, she went to Alabama to promote the "Ten Commandments" Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore.
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Post by krwordgazer on Mar 12, 2010 13:57:55 GMT -5
I'll say what I said again - at the heart of QF mindset in essentially selfishness. It's seeing a mission and not caring who you hurt in the interim. At least the QF mindsets represented thus far here. Or perhaps (as I keep seeing in QF) what it really is, is selflessness gone horribly wrong. Everyone-- including oneself-- gets subordinated to the mission. Missions are supposed to be about the greater good-- but this mission subsumes all the smaller good-- including the individual lives it was originally meant to make better. Kiery, my heart goes out to you. I went through a period of emotional shut-down as a child too. In my case I was being bullied so bad in the public school that my life had become a living nightmare. Part of why I got into organized religion later was to get rid of that feeling of being a reject, an outcast. (Then that very desire to belong and be acccepted got used to support the mission my religious group was pursuing.) At home I lived the life of a placater, keeping my alcholic parents from fighting with each other. But they were much better to me than the school kids were. Even a dysfunctional home, was a refuge from school. Your story seems very familiar, just with different dynamics. It's hard not to just get to be a kid. *hugs*
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 12, 2010 14:38:17 GMT -5
((Kiery)) I'm so sorry. :-( There have been times when I shut down emotionally as well. I would reason my way out of feeling sad and try to ignore it and just do what I was asked. But wow...to not cry at your brother's funeral. I'm so sorry.
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Post by usotsuki on Mar 12, 2010 14:55:44 GMT -5
Or perhaps (as I keep seeing in QF) what it really is, is selflessness gone horribly wrong. Everyone-- including oneself-- gets subordinated to the mission. Missions are supposed to be about the greater good-- but this mission subsumes all the smaller good-- including the individual lives it was originally meant to make better. THIS. I don't think that's specific to QF, but to all religious cults. Ugh. *rubs the scars on my head from where I needed stitches in 1996, and staples in 1999* I know a thing or two about being bullied in public schools... in my case I was a bit of an outcast anyway, because I had emotional trauma from my upbringing, because circumstances had left me 2 years behind in school, because I was autistic, because I was a redhead, because I was no good at sports (I'm not a woman so I can't exactly identify with everything you people have been through, but I do identify with some of it)...and even because I was at that time still a fundamentalist in doctrine.
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Post by arietty on Mar 12, 2010 19:14:18 GMT -5
As Kiery's story progresses, the reason for having "Do Hard Things" in the title will be very clear. And while I agree that the Harris brothers have a good idea and the best of intentions ~ to encourage high standards and doing "hard things" ~ the underlying premise is the whole "fallacy of the teenager" idea which does not allow for normal questioning of parents' values. It is ironic that they are promoting a "rebelution" in which the "rebellion" means NOT rebelling ~ it's about accepting and embracing your parents' fundamentalist Christian values and being wholehearted and even "radical" in taking action based upon an extremist belief system. So when, for instance, the Rebelution encourages young people to get involved in political campaigns ~ they are presenting opportunities to work for political candidates such as Mike Huckabee. When Angel responded to their call for campaign workers, she went to Alabama to promote the "Ten Commandments" Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore. I remember seeing the FLDS on some talk show many years ago, I think it was even the guy that recently went to prison, with all his wives. One woman in the audience stood up to ask a question about all the hard work his 16 year old wife was doing and he answered with some disparaging comment about "hanging out at the mall" and did the questioner want that for her daughter. To which she replied, YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT I want her to enjoy hanging out at the mall. So true. You have the rest of your life to "do hard things' if hard things for girls is babies, housework, self sacrifice. I enjoy my teenagers enjoying themselves!! I have read their forum in the past and there is some scary stuff there. People with huge family problems and no real help except a constant exhortation to prayer and encouragement to always put self last. You'd get more real help from a random stranger in the street. There's a claustrophobic blind leading the blind element to it. Some stuff is quite dangerous, you can see some of these teens are dealing with mental health issues. I only hope some adult moderator is contacting them off the forum and trying to help, but who knows. If your family is in chaos or you have depression etc.. you are only going to feel like a HUGE failure in this environment, especially if you are 14. And yeah, you can only do hard, adult things if they are in that subculture. You could never protest against the war for example. It's an indoctrination into one subculture. It's a shame because the idea has merit and there is a lot more that could be done with it to encourage teens to think outside of themselves and have values that improve their lives and the lives of others. It would be great to see a respect for diversity as a part of that but you won't find it in the rebelution.
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Post by dangermom on Mar 12, 2010 23:00:48 GMT -5
And while I agree that the Harris brothers have a good idea and the best of intentions ~ to encourage high standards and doing "hard things" ~ the underlying premise is the whole "fallacy of the teenager" idea which does not allow for normal questioning of parents' values. It is ironic that they are promoting a "rebelution" in which the "rebellion" means NOT rebelling ~ it's about accepting and embracing your parents' fundamentalist Christian values and being wholehearted and even "radical" in taking action based upon an extremist belief system. So when, for instance, the Rebelution encourages young people to get involved in political campaigns ~ they are presenting opportunities to work for political candidates such as Mike Huckabee. When Angel responded to their call for campaign workers, she went to Alabama to promote the "Ten Commandments" Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore. OK, thanks for the explanation. I guess I'll partly have to take your word for it for a little while, since I'm not familiar enough with any of it to know. I read the "Do Hard Things" book several months ago out of curiosity, and thought it was a pretty good message, but I really did not take it as "do big things within the fundamentalist boundaries and only work on the political campaigns we tell you to." I assumed that one could take the message into any sphere.
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Post by ShellyC on Mar 13, 2010 14:50:12 GMT -5
This story really moved me too. We have jumped threw 6 churches in the past 5 years. Finally we just stopped going all together, because of what it was doing to the kids, as well as us. Thanks for opening my eyes even more so though. ((HUGS))
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Post by kisekileia on Mar 13, 2010 15:08:50 GMT -5
I believe the Harris brothers who wrote that book are younger siblings of Joshua Harris, who wrote I Kissed Dating Goodbye. That's reason enough to be wary of them.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 15, 2010 10:41:26 GMT -5
Thanks for this post. We moved a year and half ago and have been visiting Churches ever since. It makes me mindful of what my kids go thru and glad that I've always said "let's take a vote" on whether we visit again, join or flee in horror!!!
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Post by sisof9 on Mar 15, 2010 21:33:06 GMT -5
The Harris twins go to my church. I havent read this book, but I am sure I would agree with most of it, and I definitely love Josh's books. (He spoke at my church 2 sundays ago) I wouldn't throw the whole book away just because of how some people have chosen to apply it.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 16, 2010 9:29:04 GMT -5
((Kiery)) I'm so sorry. :-( There have been times when I shut down emotionally as well. I would reason my way out of feeling sad and try to ignore it and just do what I was asked. But wow...to not cry at your brother's funeral. I'm so sorry. I think I was completely shut down as a kid as well. I remember sitting there with a few friends watching the movie, "Fiddler on the Roof" and they were just sobbing at the sad parts (when Tevye wouldn't take back his daughter). And I just felt nothing. I remember feeling at that moment, that there must be something really wrong with me. I had no access to my emotions.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 16, 2010 9:34:51 GMT -5
People can be crazy and religious at the same time. I wonder how much of the bad stuff we're seeing is the combination of mental illness with doctrines of faith healing/avoiding psychiatric help. One of the reasons that I think religion is so dangerous is that you don't have to be grounded in reality at all. You can justify your choices with Bible quotes. Most people won't even bat an eye unless things get really bad. No need to worry about results or consequences (especially to other people). Bad things that happen as a result of your choices are attributed to Satan or God testing you. Multiply that by billions of people and....oh no. I think religion can be beneficial for those who are able to strike a balance between their faith-based beliefs and reality. The vast majority of people find a way to reconcile what's right and healthy with their religion. But there are plenty of others who simply can't do that for whatever reason: mental illness, abuse, lack of alternatives. Yes, I agree. I never thought I'd hear myself coming out against religious freedom, but that principle lets people get away with craziness and abuse. I remember when I was against vaccines for medical reasons, I got out of having my kids get them because of a "religious exemption". Not that my church was against them, but it was just the only way that I could get my kids in school without the shots. Now, not to turn this into a discussion on vaccines, but just to say - there is some kind of "carte blanche" in our country if you just wave the "religion" flag. Suddenly, no one can argue with you anymore. No fact, studies, evidence matters because it is your RELIGION and therefore, safe from any or all logic. And from there, we get things like parents not giving their kids medicine, medical care, education, etc. etc. I mean, I am all for as much freedom as possible. I just don't think religion should be used as a "magic excuse" to do whatever we want to innocent minors.
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Post by francescateresa on Mar 16, 2010 10:14:13 GMT -5
I agree musicmom. Religious freedoms are the cornerstone of our nation, but we can't allow certain behaviors, in the name of religious freedom, to harm children. However, our response and reaction to fundamentalism can not be completely knee-jerk - it must be thoughtful and with compassion in mind. Child abuse and neglect - medical, emotional, physical, or otherwise should never be allowed to hide behind the all too convenient religious freedom excuse.
*clears throat and quickly steps off little soapbox*
*edited for excessive comma usage ;D
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Post by usotsuki on Mar 16, 2010 11:06:25 GMT -5
Now, not to turn this into a discussion on vaccines, but just to say - there is some kind of "carte blanche" in our country if you just wave the "religion" flag. Suddenly, no one can argue with you anymore. No fact, studies, evidence matters because it is your RELIGION and therefore, safe from any or all logic. And from there, we get things like parents not giving their kids medicine, medical care, education, etc. etc. I mean, I am all for as much freedom as possible. I just don't think religion should be used as a "magic excuse" to do whatever we want to innocent minors. That's one of the major principles by which Scientology stays alive, and the fundies I'm starting to see are like Scientology with Christian trappings tacked on. Crudely. And just as evil and misguided, sometimes.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 16, 2010 21:57:41 GMT -5
Somewhat off topic, the slogan do hard things causes me to giggle. It has such obvious sexual connotations that I wonder why the Harris brothers are using it for their movement. Back on topic Due to what I think was borderline personality disorder, my mother was abusive. Like the writer of this article, I learned to control my own emotions. Because my mother's emotions could be harmful to us kids, I had to concentrate on keeping her calm. So, I rarely acknowledge my own feelings. For years, I didn't understand why some people had a need to cry. Unless I was angry, I simply did not cry. It is surprising how similar some of these stories are to my own upbringing and yet my mother wasn't a religious fanatic, she just had a mental disorder. I think that is what bothers me so much about these stories. The almost exact harm that was done to me during my childhood is being done against other children, not because their parents are crazy but because of religion. Maybe religion is just a societal version of borderline personality disorder? (only half kidding)
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