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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 19, 2010 9:55:37 GMT -5
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Post by sisof9 on Mar 19, 2010 11:26:00 GMT -5
Kiery - I am so sorry. THIS is actually something I feel like I can relate to quite well. My job as a daughter was to protect my family. People in our church would judge my parents, they would call my parents and want meetings, others might not understand and call social services if i talked too much etc etc etc. And so I spent my whole life trying to protect my family. Not telling ANYONE what actually went on at home, even lying for my parents so they'd look better. "Oh, Mama has the flu." when she wasn't at church instead of "Mama's so incredibly depressed she actually hasnt gotten out of bed in 3 months". My mom says they never asked this of me, when all of this came out in my teen years all of the pressure i'd been under, but they DID! I would be spanked as a child for "sharing family secrets" (nothing huge, just stuff like "Oh my mom wore a dress and then returned it so she didnt have to pay for it." I wasnt trying to get her in trouble i thought it was a clever way to save money. or "My parents get naked and roll around together after go to bed." I was 5... i didnt know i thought this nice man would find it as funny as i had. ), and shamed as a teenager even for doing things for MYSELF asking a youth pastor's wife for prayer in a struggle or going down front and talking to a pastor's wife about my perceived lust in my heart (that story sucked! I went to get prayer after a sermon on lust, the pastor saw me talking TO HIS WIFE - and called my parents and told them i was having sex and lying to them!? WTF? That was soooo aggrevating - i was 20 years old... I was an adult, but even apart from that I DID NOTHING WRONG), but things like that would "bring shame on our family" so i had to be super careful not to "bring shame". I am so sorry you had to go through that - isn't it freeing now with our husbands to tell them whatever the heck we want AND you and hubby can tell other couples whatever you want about yourselves?! I want my kids to know that they are free to tell me ANYTHING - Ben doesn't get this one, but it's SUPER important to me that my kids are allowed to say "that makes me really angry"...they arent allowed to throw things or hit people, but I WANT my kids to tell me "I am really angry." or "I am really sad"... Ben feels that is good, SO we can "correct their wrong attitude", but I am steadfastly showing him that I refuse to stifle my children's emotions.. and he is slowly geting it.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 19, 2010 13:37:08 GMT -5
Your story is another good reminder for all parents. I've personally taken flack from some for homeschooling, and from others for "letting" my kid go back to public school. That ache for friends was the need met by public school. You help me see it was a good choice.
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Post by dangermom on Mar 19, 2010 14:21:31 GMT -5
An awful way to grow up. I am interested in the way these groups seem to encourage such obsessive maintaining of appearances. I guess the logic is that if you're faithful, then you're blessed and happy, so if you aren't happy about everything, then you must be doing something wrong?
I must say I find that to be a remarkably shallow (and anti-Christian) way to live. Just about the opposite of what the Bible/Christianity would tell us to expect from life. Life is hard, we all have struggles, sharing them is not bad. What happened to bearing one another's burdens?
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Post by ShellyC on Mar 19, 2010 17:50:58 GMT -5
Wow! I am pretty new coming out of the QF movement, and so I do still have lots of these traits that need to be worked on. This really touched me, because I still find myself telling my oldest girls to make sure everything looks perfect, smile etc. Not that everything is "pretty perfect" But, I think I try to over emphasize the perfect-ness. Thanks for sharing. *Virtual Hugs*
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 19, 2010 22:31:26 GMT -5
This afternoon, I had a couple errands to run ~ Chasse (who is 17 now) came along and we ended up at the mall. We got our nails done ("mother/daughter bonding" she says) and then went to the food court for lunch. As I was standing in line at one counter, I noticed a woman at another counter with two girls about 8 & 9 ~ and a baby in a stroller. They definitely had the "Duggar look" ~ so I glanced around and spotted grandma sitting at a table with three boys who looked to be about 3, 6 and 10 or so ~ all with neatly parted hair all combed into place, blue trousers, blue shirts with collars, polished black shoes. Yep ~ they were Quiverfull alright. At first, I felt this envy ~ as I watched her well-behaved daughters caring for the baby and standing so politely and quietly in line waiting for their food ~ in their matching blue skirts and button-down blouses ~ they looked like they had just come from a church service ~ maybe a wedding or a funeral. I was hit with the same feeling I experienced all those years ago at the homeschool convention when I saw the QF mom of 10 stair-step children all lined up and following ever so meekly behind her. My heart actually jumped ~ I remembered why I wanted to be just like that woman! Chasse snapped me back to reality when she said, "Oh.my.god. ~ those poor girls!" We took a table near the woman, her mother, and her six lovely children ~ and I tried not to be too obvious as I kept glancing at them while we ate our lunch. "They look so perfect," I told Chasse. "They look like they have never had a minute of fun in their entire lives," she replied. "I bet their idea of fun is doing school work." As I watched the lady, it was apparent that she was totally focused on making a good impression ~ she spoke in a soft tone, but her eyes went instantly to each child who made the slightest peep with a look that said, "Do not embarrass me." The grandmother was equally serious. None of them smiled during the entire meal. The only conversation was mother asking questions (do you want another chicken strip?) or giving orders (use your napkin) ~ the children said next to nothing and only in subdued voices ~ the only thing I could distinctly make out was when the oldest boy responded to his mother, "Yes ma'am." I am not making this up ~ or exaggerating! The whole lot of them looked so incredibly somber ~ maybe they really did just get back from a funeral?! Anyway ~ in the middle of it all, I decided that I needed a picture of Chasse with her lovely hot pink fingernails. I got out my camera, took a picture, looked at it and said, "You look like a freak." So ~ Chasse demanded that I delete the pic ~ and when I didn't immediately comply ~ she grabbed at the camera and we had a little bit of a wrestling match as she tried to erase the picture and I tried to negotiate some sort of deal in which I agree to delete it if she promises to wash the dishes when we got home. We were being completely silly ~ laughing and making a fair amount of noise. Finally, she managed to delete the picture ~ and then I immediately pointed the camera at her and got another terrible shot of her. So, she says, "OMG, Mom!" About that time, the perfect woman and her mother gave us a disapproving look ~ they were finished eating and without a word, the two older girls cleared the table, and then they left. We watched as they were walking away ~ one of the older girls kept looking over her shoulder at Chasse ~ until her mother gave her a nudge and then passed the baby to her. "I remember those days," Chasse told me. "We were little robots ~ and you thought that was a good thing!" "Sorry!" I said, "They do look like a really nice family though ~ can't you see how that would be attractive?" "Uh ... no ~ not really!" I could see her point. Even though I have to admit that my "normal" kids can be a real handful these days ~ their manners are not impeccable ~ they are sometimes loud ~ they don't always do what I tell them ~ they whine and backtalk ~ and in general, drive me crazy ~ still, I wouldn't go back. I definitely do not appear to have it all together in the mothering department these days ~ instead of the looks of admiration that we used to get, other moms wince at me with knowing sympathy ~ the dads smile and nod their heads as if to say, "I feel for you!" I had always thought I would be mortified if my kids acted "like kids" in public ~ but now that they do it all the time ~ it's really not so terrible. In fact, there's a sort of commaraderie that I feel now with fellow parents ~ rather than feeling tense and pressured to always have my children in line ~ and feeling superior when the other parents looked at my perfectly-behaved children and started making excuses for their little monsters ~ I am relaxed ~ and I'm enjoying my kids because they are so obviously enjoying themselves ~ acting silly, not stressing about whether mom is pleased with their behavior ~ they are having fun. Speaking of fun ~ I used to believe that "fun" was really not the point. It was all about glorifying God and being a good witness. I know there are plenty of Christians who believe you can have fun and still glorify God ~ that in fact, having fun and enjoying yourself pleases the Lord and makes Him happy ~ like a mother watching her children frolicking on the monkey bars. I'm sorry to say that when I was taking the QF ideals so terribly seriously, I used to call such Believers "shallow, wishy-washy Christians" and I honestly doubted the sincerity of their commitment to Jesus. At the height of our Quiverfull life ~ when we had seven children who ~ to all appearances ~ were polite, well-behaved, and godly ~ other moms who were awed by my perfectly behaved brood would often exclaim, "I don't know how you do it! I can barely handle the two kids that I have." Secretly I thought, "If I had your two kids ~ I wouldn't be able to handle it either" ~ the implication being that, of course, my children were so much easier to handle due to my superior parenting skills. If those other moms would totally dedicate themselves the way I did ~ homeschool, "dare to shelter," etc. ~ they could have well-behaved children who never gave them any trouble too.
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Post by kiery on Mar 19, 2010 22:44:16 GMT -5
You know they had a long talk in the car about you guys too, right? Maybe even at home... Yay for allowing kids to be normal though!
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Post by grandmalou on Mar 20, 2010 9:31:54 GMT -5
It really did my heart good, Vyckie, to read about your fun time at the mall! Some of you who are new here may not know, but as the grandmother of Vyckie's brood, I felt way left out of their lives when they were QF/P. NOT a good influence because (GASP) Grandpa and I watched TV, hung out with "those kinds " of people, slipped with an occassional cuss word, and I used to SMOKE!!! And on top of this, when going to visit families with "brats" my nerves couldn't handle it after being around Vyckie's perfect little ones...was I spoiled? No, just not getting to see the reality of what was happening. I quote Vyckie here: "At the height of our Quiverfull life ~ when we had seven children who ~ to all appearances ~ were polite, well-behaved, and godly ~ other moms who were awed by my perfectly behaved brood would often exclaim, "I don't know how you do it! I can barely handle the two kids that I have." The reality, y'all, is I am now needing "Granny" lessons! YIKES! Remembering the wonderful times I used to have with my own precious grandparents, it seemed strange to me that there was no 'connection' between us and all our grandchildren...all 36!!! of them! Because we had been deceived into believing they had to be "perfect"! And we had to back up the strictness of their upbringing, according to THE RULES...Or we're "Outta here!" And we MUST adhere to this so "other people will see what a godly family we are, and they will want Jesus too!" Are we having fun yet??? So when Chasse' came to spend a few days with us recently, Vyckie told me be sure to "work her buns off"...HA! I let her sleep in, eat junk food, and OVER use her cell phone...but we sorta bonded...and I got to spoil her a little. Isn't that what grandparents are for? Now I am looking forward to some time with each of them so I can BOND and SPOIL! Ha ha! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by dangermom on Mar 20, 2010 13:15:52 GMT -5
At first, I felt this envy ~ as I watched her well-behaved daughters caring for the baby and standing so politely and quietly in line waiting for their food ~ in their matching blue skirts and button-down blouses ~ they looked like they had just come from a church service ~ maybe a wedding or a funeral. I was hit with the same feeling I experienced all those years ago at the homeschool convention when I saw the QF mom of 10 stair-step children all lined up and following ever so meekly behind her. My heart actually jumped ~ I remembered why I wanted to be just like that woman! Chasse snapped me back to reality when she said, "Oh.my.god. ~ those poor girls!" [snip] "Sorry!" I said, "They do look like a really nice family though ~ can't you see how that would be attractive?" It's interesting that you're so attracted to the image of perfection there. I think a lot of people (me too) are more of Chasse's perspective and think it's kind of creepy or sad. Is it because it looks peaceful, or all coordinated? Like there's no chaos or difficulty? Maybe it's a bit like those magazine ads for furniture or whatever--selling an image of a happy, peaceful life where everything matches and you could plan a dinner party with ease and confidence? I totally understand wanting a lovely living room with no mess in it! This is another interesting thing to me. I've thought for a long time now that it's really important, in motherhood, to kind of let it all hang out. It's when we reveal that we aren't perfect and we have difficulties that we bond with other moms and get rid of the competitiveness that is poisoning so many of our families. American society (in general, not in QF circles) encourages us to look perfect and like we have it all together--the kids are well-dressed, popular, intelligent, and always ahead of the curve, Mom is trim and slim and keeps a Martha Stewart-worthy home (which is a McMansion with an SUV out front), no conflict here! And that isolates us. If we have to look perfect, we can't make real friends. We can't admit that we're having a hard time and we're always looking for ways to prove that our kids are doing better than those other kids over there, which makes other moms into rivals. And is there anything harder than being a mom without true friends to rely on? So much easier and better to let go of a false image of perfection, tell a funny story about a horrifying diaper blowout, and laugh together in friendship, knowing that we're all in this boat together and no one is doing all that well at it.
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Post by krwordgazer on Mar 20, 2010 13:16:44 GMT -5
Good for you, Grandmalou! You spoil away! ;D
Dangermom, that was an incredible post. Let's all declare a cease-fire in the Mommy Wars and in Keeping Up with the Joneses. ;D
Not only was Kiery's story hard to read, but Vyckie's was too. I felt so sorry for that older girl, looking with what appeared to be envy at Chasse and her mother just being natural and having fun, while she has to mind the baby and be perfect.
Kiery, one of the major things I learned while going through self-therapy as an adult child of alcholics, was exactly what you shared. Hide everything. Don't tell. Keep up appearances. Cover for Daddy. No one is to know.
If there is anything that pinpoints the QF/P movement as one of extreme codependency (lack of alcohol notwithstanding!) it's this silence and denial.
I still have a tendency to double-check what I say and do before I act or speak, because of a deep emotional need to keep everything smooth and conflict-free. Most of the time my intellect is able to override this, telling me to be myself and be free. But the patterns I learned as a child are still there, easy to slip into. The difference now is that I know what those patterns are and can choose to walk away from them, day by day.
What I learned as a recovering co-dependent is that what I was really seeking was a way to live that would "fix" my life, rendering it perfect and peaceful. I think it's that desire to "fix" and "make perfect" that motivates many of those who choose fundamentalist lifestyles. Ultimately, it's based on fear: fear of letting go and letting life happen, letting ourselves and our loved ones be who they are. If only we can stay in control, nothing bad will happen-- like the bad stuff that hurt so much when we were little and helpless to stop it.
In Kung Fu Panda (loved that film!) the master sensei says, "Let go of the illusion of control." Because that's all it ever can be-- an illusion. We can't really be in complete control of life-- but maintaining that illusion, particularly over our kids, sure causes a lot of pain! From a Christian perspective, I see it ultimately as a lack of trust in the diety I professed to trust. But as far as I can see, that diety has never actually been very interested in controlling my life, either. . .
The comfort is that now that we understand the dynamics, we who have walked away can become part of the solution. We can let ourselves and our loved ones be free, let life be messy and uncontrollable-- and teach ourselves not to be afraid.
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Post by arietty on Mar 20, 2010 18:42:00 GMT -5
Vyckie I kind of think the appeal is similar to the appeal of the beautiful catalog display as dangermom mentioned, at least for me. I would like to be the kind of person who lives in that IKEA display.. and I would like to be the kind of person who runs a home that produces such children. Nowadays when that appeal strikes again, which it occasionally does if I look at QF blogs I like to examine what the nitty gritty of the attraction is and look to see how this already exists in my life or how I wouldn't actually like it if it did exist in my own life. I also look to other family models that attract me, such as some alternative type families I know.
Yes they definitely talked about you guys later in the car!!
I think it's great when your kids are teenagers to see them as so different from you, to see them launching off into their own generation. The appearance you and Chasse gave was of FREEDOM. Loud, fun and relaxed in your own skin.
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Post by arietty on Mar 20, 2010 18:55:56 GMT -5
Kiery your post was great! I was hoping KR would talk about the codependance of having to maintain family secrets and image and she has The pressure is really on in many christian circles, not just QF, to repackage everything in terms of christian triumph. You have to work hard with some people to get to the reality of what their life is like. I had a friend a couple years ago who when I first became friends with her was a newly converted christian. She was great, she loved reality, she would call shit, "shit" literally. She had a lot of struggles in her life and she was really upfront about them. Fast forward a few years into her Christian walk (she's attracted to pentecostal teaching/worship) and I can hardly stand to talk to her. Shit is no longer shit, it is "spiritual warfare" or "Philippians 4: 13" or "the Lord is really building my faith this week, PRAISE GOD". And me, with my reality, the same reality that I had when I met her, am the "negative" person. She used to enjoy my talking about life as reality but now she sees it as negative and a lack of faith. UGH, I feel like Jesus stole my friend! Anyway thank you for your very valuable insights into what it is like to be raised in this. The denial of your own reality, the forced reality of christian triumph which doesn't actually exist. Let's all pretend it does though.
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Post by arietty on Mar 20, 2010 19:13:17 GMT -5
I am so sorry you had to go through that - isn't it freeing now with our husbands to tell them whatever the heck we want AND you and hubby can tell other couples whatever you want about yourselves?! I want my kids to know that they are free to tell me ANYTHING - Ben doesn't get this one, but it's SUPER important to me that my kids are allowed to say "that makes me really angry"...they arent allowed to throw things or hit people, but I WANT my kids to tell me "I am really angry." or "I am really sad"... Ben feels that is good, SO we can "correct their wrong attitude", but I am steadfastly showing him that I refuse to stifle my children's emotions.. and he is slowly geting it. That is great Sisof9. My kids (teens) had a big fight this week and I said to each of them that it was fine they were angry, my only objection was one of them namecalling and one of them swearing. But go ahead and express your anger. I do try and get them to express it without crossing certain lines and this works for the most part, as in they will retract the namecalling even while they are still arguing. A couple of my kids have commented that their friends cannot speak freely to their parents or get mad about something without being punished in some way, or without shocking their parents. They DO appreciate, especially when they see the contrast, that they have open lines of communication with me. My (second) husband's emotions were completely stifled by his evangelical family. Any depression or sadness was "anger turned inwards" and since ALL anger was bad you were sinning whether you were angry or sad. I am happy to see how he reacts to out little ones expressing anger, he usually thinks it is hilarious when the toddler is stomping her feed and shrieking. He sees their emerging into loud and sometimes angry opinions as their personalities developing. His own mother boasts that she had to "break his will" as a child (this was straight Dobson I believe) and it thrills me to see him so vividly enjoying his own childrens "will". We don't have to repeat what we were raised with. I've been meaning to reply to your intro post sisof9, will do that now.
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Post by rosa on Mar 20, 2010 19:47:31 GMT -5
Yeah, Arietty, that's straight-up Dobson. Never back down, you always have to win. I had this girlfriend who came from a really abusive family - she acknowledged the sexual abuse but the beatings were just old-fashioned discipline, not a problem, totally out in the open (as long as you didn't tell anyone at school or the shrink you got sent to). One time we were hanging out with her little brother and a new neighbor of theirs, who had a hobby farm and a really well-trained big dog. The dog did some trick and her brother said "That dog behaves like it's been beat!" That's what I think of when I see those "perfect" kids. I'm sure not all of them are abused - it *is* possible to occasionally all behave perfectly all at once. But I don't believe any free person is always well-behaved. And the one-upsmanship over what the girls can achieve - it's regular parental pride but totally misplaced, I think. It's admirable when people thrive and succeed in really difficult circumstances, but it's not admirable to be the person who put them in that situtation.
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Post by dangermom on Mar 20, 2010 21:35:31 GMT -5
What I learned as a recovering co-dependent is that what I was really seeking was a way to live that would "fix" my life, rendering it perfect and peaceful. I think it's that desire to "fix" and "make perfect" that motivates many of those who choose fundamentalist lifestyles. Ultimately, it's based on fear: fear of letting go and letting life happen, letting ourselves and our loved ones be who they are. If only we can stay in control, nothing bad will happen-- like the bad stuff that hurt so much when we were little and helpless to stop it. In Kung Fu Panda (loved that film!) the master sensei says, "Let go of the illusion of control." Because that's all it ever can be-- an illusion. We can't really be in complete control of life-- but maintaining that illusion, particularly over our kids, sure causes a lot of pain! From a Christian perspective, I see it ultimately as a lack of trust in the diety I professed to trust. But as far as I can see, that diety has never actually been very interested in controlling my life, either. . . The comfort is that now that we understand the dynamics, we who have walked away can become part of the solution. We can let ourselves and our loved ones be free, let life be messy and uncontrollable-- and teach ourselves not to be afraid. Excellent. I really think this is a big feature of modern American life. We're told all the time that we should be in control, that everything should look good. I guess that's what TV and advertising and commercialism has done to our society. There seems to be an intersection here with evangelical --I don't know, prosperity theology? This idea that the faithful are blessed and therefore should have no problems--and mainstream American society that says we should all have picture-perfect lives. I'd be quite interested in reading an article on that, anyone want to write it? To me, this idea in evangelicalism looks quite new, even if prosperity theology isn't. I mean, I remember reading lots of 19th-century books with religious characters (Charlotte Yonge, Mrs. Gaskell, even Laura Ingalls Wilder), in which ideals of "resignation" and not repining are huge. Problems are expected, everyone has severe trials, and 'good' characters are expected to deal with them gracefully, without whining--but they're real and acknowledged and exhausting or tragic, whatever. I wonder if this trend is something we could only get now, in a society where death and disease and starvation-level poverty are not constantly around us, and we can finally pretend to ourselves, a lot of the time, that we control our lives. I wonder if it's possible to get it in 3rd-world countries. I think you're right that it is a mistake from a Christian perspective. Christian thought, for centuries, has been "we never know what's going to happen, so we have to trust that eventually we'll come out OK in the end." That's still true--it's just harder to see now.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 21, 2010 13:20:55 GMT -5
I think perhaps part of the reason that many Christians have the perpetual smiley face is something that Vyckie has talked about before. Many of us, myself included, treated Christianity as some kind of insurance policy against all the uncertainties of life. We paid into it by our total obedience - giving up our very selves, our goals, our children's wills, etc - and we expected a perfectly controlled, charmed life in return.
Personally, life did not seem to know about this insurance policy I'd taken out and doled out the usual consequences and accidental disasters to me. But, until I saw the Ponzi scheme that I had bought into, I could never admit when things were bad. It would be like admitting that I had been royally scammed and that life REALLY WAS unpredictable and full of sadness and tragedy (as well as full of lots of good things too).
So, until I was ready to admit that I had been had, I put a holy, happy spin on everything that happened. I was like one of those annoying yellow happy faces that you see all through Walmart. And woe to anyone around me that admitted depression or discouragement. It is not a very human way to live life - as a perpetually, pathologically happy person. Now when I hear Christians talk like this, it makes me want to slug them - but I think it's because they remind me of ME.
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Post by grandmalou on Mar 21, 2010 15:59:54 GMT -5
Thanks, Kristen. Wow, do I ever get it, what you said here, and I quote: "If there is anything that pinpoints the QF/P movement as one of extreme codependency (lack of alcohol notwithstanding!) it's this silence and denial. I still have a tendency to double-check what I say and do before I act or speak, because of a deep emotional need to keep everything smooth and conflict-free. Most of the time my intellect is able to override this, telling me to be myself and be free. But the patterns I learned as a child are still there, easy to slip into. The difference now is that I know what those patterns are and can choose to walk away from them, day by day. What I learned as a recovering co-dependent is that what I was really seeking was a way to live that would "fix" my life, rendering it perfect and peaceful. I think it's that desire to "fix" and "make perfect" that motivates many of those who choose fundamentalist lifestyles. Ultimately, it's based on fear: fear of letting go and letting life happen, letting ourselves and our loved ones be who they are. If only we can stay in control, nothing bad will happen-- like the bad stuff that hurt so much when we were little and helpless to stop it." Mom has been gone since 2002, and I still often find myself thinking before doing something...I wonder if Mom would like this or that? I tape things on our VCR with Mom in mind...she will like seeing this or listening to that...and FIXING things? It's just nuts, isn't it? Kind of like talking to oneself. Where is that 'slapping forehead' smiley when we need it, huh? (((HUGS)))
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Hillary
Full Member
"Quivering Daughters ~ Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy" Now Available!
Posts: 129
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Post by Hillary on Mar 22, 2010 7:36:49 GMT -5
"I defended them . . ." Boy, can I relate to this! Even after I moved out, I defended them for years. {{Hugs Kiery}} Excellent article.
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Post by janedoe on Mar 23, 2010 1:40:04 GMT -5
Everyone of you should Really read this, it takes about twenty minutes, if you read the second [I'm including both] it will take forty--read thoroughly, I think many of you will be Shocked, to say the least, Vickie, I think you will really find a lot of wealth of info and some support for you here, and for the work, for the Take Heart Project. www.awid.org/eng/About-AWID/AWID-Initiatives/Resisting-and-Challenging-Religious-Fundamentalisms/What-s-new-from-this-initiative/Ten-myths-about-religious-fundamentalismson this one, and the one above, I think, many moderate Christian women, will be APPALLED [or I would HOPE they would be, when they find, how human right/women rights activists, have been treated by Christian 'missions' and not just fundies--many so called progressive, in Africa, Asia, South America--e.g. Liberian Christian pastors forcing women to not have medical while pregnant and these women are DYING, in churches giving birth--in Nigeria Christians supporting POLYGAMY all with Tithes, from yes, moderate 'patriarchal' churches--but it's not just Christians, these Human Right activists--from ALL OVER THE WORLD, expose the brutal realities of Fundamentalisms from Islam to Buddhists--Hindus etc., suicides of women in Iran far higher than men--and this is increasing World Wide-- one thing they All have in common, is hate of women, want of control over her sexuality [little girls included] AND VIOLENCE. Not just against women, but against HUMAN RIGHT ACTIVISTS. Read, also, the RISE of Religious Fundamentalism Globally-- www.awid.org/eng/About-AWID/AWID-Initiatives/Resisting-and-Challenging-Religious-Fundamentalisms/What-s-new-from-this-initiative/Religious-Fundamentalisms-on-the-Rise-A-case-for-actionIn solidarity Jane
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Post by janedoe on Mar 23, 2010 2:13:40 GMT -5
News from the anti-patriarchal [and anti-child abuse/immunity protections Regardless of religion or culture], related to above, from Human Rights perspective--
speaking of hard things--[and from EU news]
TURKEY: 17 WOMEN KILLED, 26 COMMIT SUICIDE IN 2 MONTHS (ANSAmed) - ANKARA, MARCH 18 - A total of 43 women lost their lives (17 murdered and 26 committed suicide) in eastern and south-eastern Anatolia alone in the opening two months of this year. These figures appear in the pro-government newspaper, Sabah, which cites as its source Birgul Kitay, the head of the Ka-Mer (Women's Centre)Women's Association in Bingol, in this Kurdish majority eastern part of Turkey. The area rose to prominence in news reports a few days ago when a man, who had been given a three-month sentence for beating his wife, six-months into pregnancy with her fifth child, cut off his wifés nose and ears as a punishment for having reported him. According to the figures supplied by Ka-Mer, the first 59 days of this year saw nine women victims of domestic violence in the South-East of the country alone; five were killed for reasons unknown will another three were victims of "honour killings": accused or suspected of having sullied the good name of the family. The same region saw a further 16 women and 10 girls take their own lives, almost all under family pressure, and almost all for "reasons of honour". "Honour" killings remain a sore on the face of Turkish society despite recent efforts by the government in Ankara to stiffen penalties for those found guilty of them. According to a report presented last year in Istanbul by John Austin, a British MEP at the Council of Europe, there is at least one death every week in Turkey in connection with "honour". More than one thousand one hundred women were killed in this way during the five-year period 2003-2007. (ANSAmed).
and
on the War against Child [forced marriages, well, lets be truthful, Legalized RAPE of children/women] in Yemen--keep a watch on this--this will have domino effect--Sadly, Saudi just voted Yes on protecting--forced marriages, of girls, young as 8 years old, but hey, that's Patriarchy for you--and our leaders kiss their hands, shame shame shame [surprise, NOT]
Yemeni Women against Fixing Marriage Age The controversy over the marriage age in Yemen is back again after Parliament approved last month amendment to the personal affairs laws fixing the age at 17 years.
After the move, the law was back in the council under pressure from clerics and tribal sheikhs urging the government to deal with this sensitive issue accurately and seriously in a way that never disagrees with Islam.
On Sunday, hundreds of Yemeni women marched along the street leading to the headquarters of Parliament in protest at the law of fixing marriage age.
They presented cartoons containing the signatures of a million Yemeni children and clerics against fixing the marriage age at 17 years.
Most of them are against fixing the marriage age and want no limits to it. We got married when 13 years and had children without any troubles or damages, some marchers claimed.
Others said that those who say that early marriage is a crime, they contradict with Islam and should accuse Islam.
On the clerics' opinion, the Yemeni clerics issued a fatwa banning to legalize the marriage age. Any attempts to do so are deemed opposing the Islamic teachings and the Sunna of Prophet Muhammad, the Fatwa said.
Yemen Post Staff
Also news on the War for Womens' Reproductive Rights--Central America--women being raped in high numbers, El Salvador by Police--and the abortion/in Nicaragua--oh yea, Supported by none other than the LEFT WING/commies & socialists-Catholics on this one, a woman,
has been Sentenced to Death, reason: the unborn must live, no intervention Allowed to save mother's life
Nicaragua Anti-Abortion Law Amounts to a Death Sentence
A pregnant 27-year old Nicaraguan woman, "Amelia," with metastatic cancer has been denied medical treatment on the grounds that it might harm her baby.
Nicaragua passed a draconian anti-abortion law in 2008 which criminalizes abortion even in the case of rape or incest or when the mother's life is in danger. Nicaraguan doctors are prohibited from treating pregnant women with cancer, HIV/AIDS, malaria and cardiac diseases, and threatened with prison sentences for providing health services or information related to abortion.
Amelia has effectively been handed a death sentence by her government. Each day she is denied treatment, she edges closer to death; in a tragic irony, she will most likely die before the baby is even born. Her 10-year old daughter will be left without a mother, since the Nicaraguan government values the life of an unborn fetus over that of a mother.
Please ask Luz Patricia Mejía Guerrero, Chair of the Inter-American Commision on Human Rights, to urgently petition Nicaragua's government to allow Amelia treatment and overturn this brutal law, which not only prevents women from receiving essential health services to save their lives but also forces rape and incest victims as young as ten years old to carry their pregnancies to term. And tell Nicaragua's president and other Nicaraguan authorities on health, justice, and women's issues that the international community is watching and not to commit this egregious abuse.
Nicaragua's government must be told that this law is an egregious violation of women's most basic human rights.
Sign the Petition.
March 10 is National Appreciation Day for Abortion Providers. In recent years, this may have seemed like a silly appreciation day: why go out of our way to celebrate people who do their jobs? However, the sad truth is that, in this country, health care providers who give counseling, advice and schedule, and perform abortions do so against mounting hatred and controversy. They do a job that carries not only a stigma in our society, but that bears the risk of being threatened, hurt, or even murdered. Their bravery deserves our heartfelt appreciation.
Be INFORMED--BECAUSE THESE FUNDAMENTALIST-MISOGYNIST POLICIES AND GOVERNMENT BODIES/RIGHT AND LEFT,
ARE JOINING MORE AND MORE--
why we NEED to Ratify CEDAW
Far more info but thought--this would inform many, that the War for women, is not just the war against Christian Fundies--
either we wake up, or
get ready for the future Witch Hunts
your call, I've made mine, I blame the Patriarchy, Relativism, and the Colonization of Feminism. The 'fundamentalisms' are increasing--globally, and they are tied into corporate levels. [interesting note about the Fast Food industry support/corporations of Numerous, Anti-Women, global legislation]
In solidarity,
Jane Needle Workers and Sewers Union Fighting for Women's Economic Human Rights--because Patriarchy doesn't just rule by philosophy, but enforces the emprisonment of women through the feminization of poverty.
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Post by janedoe on Mar 23, 2010 2:14:06 GMT -5
typo--should be imprisonment
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Post by ShellyC on Mar 24, 2010 21:05:41 GMT -5
That was a very intresting story Vyckie. I am still this way too, so I guess I too, have a long road ahead of me. Just when I think I am "over it" sorta speak..I see the occasional family like this and my eyes are like glue. I think unless you have personally been through something simular, it is hard for others to undertsnad the feelings that we have regarding these type of families. The one thing that did stand out to me, is when I was a QF fundi, I would never dare to ever be seen, or take my kids to a mall! ;D In fact, I just started taking my kids to the mall last year!!! I would totally down nose Christains that would be seen at such a worldy place. All this coming from a former Mall Rat! Ugh! ~S
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Post by janedoe on Mar 26, 2010 13:58:58 GMT -5
They 'sacrificed' the Children, to Marduk, the same way...read first book of Daniel,
I have found the connection to Why I was lead here in the first place, why the ritual abuse in my childhood--how it is Connected to your stories here,
it's NOT just in the QF, it is NOT just in Fundamental Christianity==beware,
read the first book of Daniel...
Love, Jane
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Post by janedoe on Mar 26, 2010 14:11:50 GMT -5
To those of you who still want to maintain relationship with Jesus, but not wanting to remain in the 'temples', [where the son of perdition is being revealed],
read Daniel, study the ancient cults of Mesopotamia, read Isaiah and Jeremiah, especially about the connections between the Judah/Israel priests and politics, what was Required to have political Power, find out about the worship of Baal and Ashtoreth, etc.,
you'll see it. And then, read up on what Jesus said, a great falling away, [Paul who Warned of the wolves before his death] and about the separation of 'wheat and weeds, the good fish/bad fish', at the end or near the end, it's the angels [doesn't say which ones] that do the separating...
they 'create' the wounds, then they feed on them--others, who are allies, just like in Any war, will 'manipulate' the wounds, a promise of liberation,
but it's just another deception--the mask, is a mask of good. Beware,
tree of good and evil,
tree of life.
They use that good contrasted with evil, to keep many ensnared in, and they sacrifice young women/girls/children, because it's
Blood, they need to thrive and live on.
That is why, the blood sacrifice, of Jesus...the first sacrifice, was Cain killing Abel--sacrifice to Who?
think about it...may sound crazy--but don't quit on Jesus--do some praying and reading, searching,
I did, the ritual abuse that many children have suffered, is from the same source...
there is a Reason for it. Some will be delivered, and purified, by fire, that is what Daniel says...Satan hates women, the enmity,
the son of perdition is in the temple--and it's not just fundie Christianity--this is Global,
the trafficking of girls, is Related.
Solidarity,
Jane
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Post by musicmom on Mar 26, 2010 17:58:16 GMT -5
Ok, but this is my whole problem with Christianity, Jane.
What is it, basically, except divine child abuse? From Abraham sacrificing Isaac, to Lot offering his daughters to the mob, to God offering his only son on the cross.
It took me a long time to figure it out, but I really think that a huge purpose of Christianity it to allow parents to abuse their kids in the name of God. Every time you look at a crucifix and you see what the creator of the world did to his only son, you count yourself lucky to just be alive and kicking. This is a huge symbol of Christianity and, I think, controls children just by its very subconscious meaning.
I agree, Jane, that sacrificing children is pervasive and has sustained civilizations at times - just think of the Incas and the Aztecs. I believe Christian parents have done it too - in the name of God. Just read a Charles Dickens novel to see how kids were treated in the name of God.
So...how exactly does Jesus come into all this? How does he prevent children and women from being sacrificed and oppressed? How exactly does his blood prevent our wounds?
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