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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Feb 2, 2010 12:24:18 GMT -5
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Feb 2, 2010 12:53:16 GMT -5
I'm beginning to think homeschooling kills women.
Of course, this is a massive generalization.
So I'll modify...
I ***feel*** like homeschooling--(Christian homeschooling)--steals and kills and destroys women.
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 2, 2010 13:03:45 GMT -5
I knew many " Kays" online. They had me, amoung other things, laying on the carpet, rubbing my face into it, while crying out to God to destroy my " self" so I could serve Him.
i can't think I would live through having one in the house with me.
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Post by hopewell on Feb 2, 2010 13:50:35 GMT -5
I think it's more "Homeschooling, when not Mom's choice, when Mom has too much else to do, and when it's done for indoctrination, kills Mom". My 15 year old son is homeschooling now and it's actually simplified my life--but I have 2 teens, a small house, an adequate income and no husband forcing it down my throat!
That said, Ruth I guess I was so radicalized in college by the beginnings of the Women's Studies movement etc that I cannot imagine Sticking around for all that your mom "took." The courts almost always grant custody to the mother, if she didn't want to lose the kids. Still, I've been seriously depressed in my life and understand not being able to get out of the "fog" [as it was to me]. I cannot imagine having to be depressed, be locked in a prayer closet and have some old know-it-all telling my husband how bad I was. I guess I'd have taken my Bible bookmark and sharpened it and done myself in. What a way to live.
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Post by philosophia on Feb 2, 2010 15:46:35 GMT -5
Probably many quiverfull women can see themselves in your mother. Ironically, home schooling was initially my idea. I had been one of those smart kids who listened to Pink Floyd "The Wall" and wanted my kids to have a bit more freedom..... But fundamentalism has an appeal to the insecure.
The heart of a woman who likes to do things a bit differently can be shredded by the authoritarians. As our family grew, if I encountered problems it was always some flaw in my character or conduct that was pointed out as the issue. Not maybe that I needed assistance, or that we were attempting too much. Or that round pegs do not fit into square holes! I had no time for any self expression except my gardening and sewing. This was very visible and accepted, but I had to force the issue to get these things done. I gave up sewing and gradually only maintained the gardens.
I cannot tell you how much resentment I held toward the Susannah Wesley pushers. You Quiverfull women know what I'm talking about. I could never be Susannah Wesley. Not only was I NOT Susannah Wesley, but I didn't have a house full of servants, NOR a husband that was AWAY MOST OF THE TIME. Why in hell did we all have to be compared to Susannah Wesley? Just the thought of it irritates the hell out of me.
For me, being a mother was tending my babies and rejoicing in their achievements. Loving them and playing with them, feeding and nurturing. Those things took priority and it required spontaneity and time. Other things were secondary, and when I saw the boys needed more structure and discipline and wanted to enroll them in school, STBX refused. We all suffered, because the boys ran over me because I was busy with smaller children. Their schooling suffered because I did not have enough time for details.
NO! I never bought Managers of Their Homes. I knew I could never handle that level of structure with a house full of children, twenty tenants, and a life of continual interruptions. But dang, I was made to feel guilty for not trying it. After all, it would be so FREEING! UGH! It gets old, working so hard and always falling short.
I feel for your mother. I feel like I was her. I'm sorry to have raised you this way. But I thought I was serving God, and I love you!
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Post by krwordgazer on Feb 2, 2010 15:53:42 GMT -5
I could hardly stand reading this. It's so similar to things that happened to a dear family member.
Not only required to be a slave, but required to be happy in slavery. Not only under a man's boots, but required to lick them and like the taste.
It makes me so angry I hardly know what to say.
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Post by dangermom on Feb 2, 2010 16:16:21 GMT -5
IIRC, Susannah Wesley ran outside stark naked when the house caught on fire one night. Did anyone ever mention that part? Yes, that is the only thing I know about her! (Actually I guess when she says 'naked' she means she was in her shift, but I don't know.)
Back later with more serious thoughts.
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Post by gardenkatz on Feb 2, 2010 17:07:11 GMT -5
Ruth:
Thank you for sharing your story.....
There is a special place in hell for Bill Gothard...perverter of the gospel and very essence of Jesus Christ....
What was done to your mother was unspeakably cruel. I'm sorry she didn't have the strength to leave...
GK
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Post by susan on Feb 2, 2010 17:43:15 GMT -5
Ruth, I'm sorry I ever thought or implied that your grandparents pushed your mom away! How awful that your mom was so oppressed, that she let her captors make her write that awful letter to her parents! They must have felt so hurt and rejected. And at this point, your mom must have felt so totally isolated. In a way, that evil woman your dad brought home reminds me of Vyckie's horrid midwife, who pried her cervix open and who also backed up all Warren's unreasonable demands on the children. Or, maybe I should compare women like this to people living under oppressive governments who rat each other out rather than banding together to support and help one another escape. I had been one of those smart kids who listened to Pink Floyd "The Wall" and wanted my kids to have a bit more freedom..... This is actually why I homeschool. Needless to say, I've learned that we simply don't fit in with our local Christian homeschoooling group, so we left that group a year ago and got involved with our area secular homeschooling group. The difference is like night and day -- or maybe like breathing stale air while shut up in a box (or closet) versus breathing fresh air out in the open. Meaning, I see secular as more open and conducive to child-led learning.
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sarah
New Member
Posts: 10
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Post by sarah on Feb 2, 2010 18:08:39 GMT -5
This installment of your story made me cry. How alone your mother must have felt. It's horrifying.
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Feb 2, 2010 18:21:07 GMT -5
I think it's more "Homeschooling, when not Mom's choice, when Mom has too much else to do, and when it's done for indoctrination, kills Mom Yeah. If you don't mind, I'll just say "what she said". When you have to turn off common sense and isolate yourself from your parents and micro-manage every last second of your life in order to be organized enough to, I don't know, spiritually SAVE your children... kills.
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Feb 2, 2010 18:26:28 GMT -5
Why in hell did we all have to be compared to Susannah Wesley? Just the thought of it irritates the hell out of me. As it should.
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Post by journey on Feb 2, 2010 19:07:24 GMT -5
My heart lurched as I read this account of a mother, because of her desire to please God, being forced to shut off her brain. Brought up so many painful memories.
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Post by dangermom on Feb 2, 2010 19:49:28 GMT -5
Time for my serious post. This story makes me sadder every time I see a chapter. How did your poor mom survive, Ruth? ( Did she?) This story is so terrible, it's hard to read. I do homeschool, but it's my choice. I am an oddball and comfortable that way. I do find it freeing. It's hard work though. AND I use Managers of their Chores! Well, sort of, I am a lot more relaxed about it. I took what helped and left the rest, but then I haven't got anyone telling me that it's a system I have to use in order to be righteous and a proper wife and mother. I suppose if the Maxwells saw my house and life, they'd be horrified...
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chloe
New Member
Posts: 37
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Post by chloe on Feb 2, 2010 23:21:08 GMT -5
It worries me to read these posts because my cousin started to home school this year. She has five little ones (so far), and her mother has been very impressed with how organized she seems. Now maybe it's working well, but it seems to me that even if it weren't, no one in the family would know or be able to help. Her parents are Catholic, and her extended family somewhat secular Christians, and she stopped sharing the religious beliefs she adopted when she married some time ago. In other words, I get the distinct feeling that she avoids talking about it partly so that no one can object to her choices. And, of course, everything has happened gradually. First, the very serious church, then baby after baby without really explaining that they are QF (this is something I suspect I'm the only one in the family to know about, as her mother is so hostile to the idea of having as many as she does), the Christian private school, the dresses-only rule, and now the home schooling...it's really the same step-by-step process Vyckie describes.
I just hate to think that she might be suffering and carefully concealing it from everyone.
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Post by dangermom on Feb 3, 2010 1:05:05 GMT -5
Do you live close to her? If possible, you could visit and see how she is. Show up often, lend a hand, offer to take the kids to the park while she naps, be friendly and accepting. Are the kids all very small or are they more spread out? It is possible to homeschool a bunch of kids. It isn't easy, but it doesn't inevitably and always lead to insanity either. I know at least one person who does it pretty well, but I think she probably pays for cleaning help (and she only did two pregnancies; they also foster/adopted). Don't assume that she's miserable--she might be or she might not. But if you're concerned you could certainly try hanging out with her as much as you can and showing her some caring.
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Post by madame on Feb 3, 2010 3:37:56 GMT -5
Ruth, That post was so hard to read! Especially when your father realized your mother needed help, and he brought that older woman. She sounds like Debi Pearl, only it's not just her book you get, you get HER.
Those older women perpetuate the notion that women ought to be like play-doh, ever ready to be molded into whatever their husbands wish them to be.
My mother also had four children under 5, and my father was also "in ministry" at the time. But shortly after having her 4th, her 1st went to school. A year later, I went, and so on. And I think that not homeschooling was what kept my mother somewhat sane. She also had baby after baby, and my dad was also gone most of the time. I also remember our home being very chaotic, and my mother is a person who needs order, cleanliness and control over her domain. She would sigh in relief when the sounds of "the elephant stampede" would fade, giving her the time she needed to do all the housework.
She also never had any older woman tell her she was WRONG for being depressed (which she often was). The older women we knew would tell us to help our mom and be nice to her. I think many people felt sorry for us because my dad was very strict and set in his ways. I can't imagine having people support him against my mother and us.
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Post by susan on Feb 3, 2010 14:29:57 GMT -5
In other words, I get the distinct feeling that she avoids talking about it partly so that no one can object to her choices. And, of course, everything has happened gradually. First, the very serious church, then baby after baby without really explaining that they are QF (this is something I suspect I'm the only one in the family to know about, as her mother is so hostile to the idea of having as many as she does), the Christian private school, the dresses-only rule, and now the home schooling...it's really the same step-by-step process Vyckie describes. I just hate to think that she might be suffering and carefully concealing it from everyone. Bolding mine. Although we are not QF/P, and are no longer even fundamentalist, I can identify with your cousin's desire to create a little distance from relatives who are openly hostile to her choices. I used to be more open about our unschooling with my extended family. But I started gradually shutting up about it because it seemed like they just weren't getting it and it was causing them to feel alarmed. About a year and a half ago, we still had a relationship of sorts with my mom and other relatives -- but I had to set some boundaries. I.e. when my mom would start rambling on and on saying all kinds of critical stuff about me, and wasn't open to me changing the subject, I'd abruptly end the visit. And when my oldest (now 9) was 4, we realized we couldn't trust my relatives to spend time with her without us being there, because they kept upsetting her by going on about all the fun stuff she was going to miss if she couldn't persuade us to send her to kindergarten. So, we had a very limited relationship. NO dropping off the kids with anyone. But then my sister called Children's Services and accused us of educational neglect. It never came to anything, we got one visit and the caseworker said our home was obviously safe and there was no reason to open any case. So, I'd like to say "no harm done" -- but this incident really and truly served to break my trust in my extended family. I continue to have occasional phone contact with my mom, but I don't feel safe having even her spend time with my children, because I know it was the stuff she was saying about me -- I had a friend inform me of how badly Mom was talking about me at her church -- that gave my sister the ammunition and impetus to call. And though Mom wasn't involved with the call, she told me she didn't blame my sister for doing it. While our situation is obviously vastly different from your cousin's in some ways, I thought I should share my perspective ... because if you want to be a genuinely supportive person in her life, it will be very important that she doesn't see you as someone who might "report back" to her "hostile" mother or to other hostile relatives about any concerns you might have. I, personally, would love to have a supportive family-like community in our lives -- but of course supportive means respecting that your cousin will be making some different choices than the ones you would make. If you feel like you're basically-tolerant of different ways of doing things, and aren't set on there being one "right way" to raise and educate children, then it sounds like you could end up being a welcome friend and confidante to your cousin.
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Post by juliacat on Feb 4, 2010 11:35:12 GMT -5
"Many times a day, she would gather me from my blanket or playpen, sit down to nurse me and cry. She would sit in the rocking chair, in the midst of the noise and activity generated by the boys, and stroke my back while tears poured from her eyes."
This has been haunting me ever since I first read it a few days ago. What an image. Wow.
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Post by AustinAvery on Feb 4, 2010 16:25:57 GMT -5
I feel for your mother. I feel like I was her. I'm sorry to have raised you this way. But I thought I was serving God, and I love you! philosophia: After noticing your generous comment about the clarity of my posts, I went back to read several of yours. That line stopped me in my tracks. I read it several times, and literally felt tears welling up. The pivot was clever, yet so genuine that the tug at the heart strings was a welcome pleasure. I hope RazingRuth saw it. And for my money, you take a back seat to no one in your ability to express yourself.
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Post by razingruth on Feb 4, 2010 16:58:59 GMT -5
Thank you, ladies, for the feedback.
I would say more but I'm feeling really bad today.
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Post by journey on Feb 4, 2010 20:26:12 GMT -5
www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9&Itemid=5Absolutely fascinating article on brainwashing stuff... Reminded me of what happened to me....in the state of exhaustion of having a 4-5 week old baby, which is when my husband dropped the bomb that he had been told by God that my soul/salvation was in danger because I was full of rebellion, etc.... And I thought about Ruth's mother, exhausted from having all those babies, and then that woman coming over and joining her father's condemnation... A perfect set up for wiping the slate of the brain clean and accepting new programming, if there ever was one. Anyways, thought some here might find the article as interesting as I did.
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Post by hopewell on Feb 5, 2010 10:34:52 GMT -5
A little off topic....SUSAN: you are in good company. My sil is a childless school pyschologist. I'm a liberal Christian, and from time-to-time we've done homeschool. As a single Mom homeschool is tough, but do able. Short version: my 15 year old is in Juve system now on home arrest. I removed him from the horrible high school he was in and he's doing homeschool. My sil threaten what she calls "legal action." My kids post-adoption issues have made me very familiar with CPS and what they can and can't do. Long story short: While we are very open with my Mom, my sil and brother [sadly about my brother] are just no longer part of our lives. She even forced her way into a joining one of my son's counseling sessions. The psychologist leading the session told me we need never see her again!! It happens. Sometimes family members are toxic, sometimes friends are. I've also had a blast trying to be part of any Christian homeschool group. Just try saying the words "single Mom" and see how fast they scatter! Our homeschool group is a 45 mile drive away but it has "everything" in the way of families!
juliacat : I totally agree--that image has haunted me too. I also wonder how many other QF kids have been rocked to sleep bathed in Mama's tears.
As for the image of Susanna Wesely running naked! Well, I DIDN'T Know this and spit tea at the screen!! Too darned funny!!
Finally: If you read FreeJinger you know the Maxwell's are favorites of mine. Their "Chore Packs" and "Managers of their Homes/Schools" are very, very well intentioned--they just take it all way too seriously! I'm a FlyLady drop-out multiple times, so I've never bought MoTHs.....
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Post by krwordgazer on Feb 5, 2010 12:01:47 GMT -5
Razingruth, I hope you feel better really soon!
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Post by susan on Feb 5, 2010 15:17:56 GMT -5
hopewell, thank you for sharing -- and I'm sorry for how your SIL's meddling has effected your family relationships! I really wasn't trying to go off-topic by sharing about my personal experience with toxic family ...
I guess I was just trying to explain that there are sometimes healthy reasons for being wary of "concerned" friends and family who want to "help." Not that we are in Patriarchy -- just that we Attachment Parent and do child-led learning, and other stuff that makes us different from the mainstream.
After my experience with my sister, I find that I'm very wary of getting too close to other people. On the one hand, I feel isolated and crave more close relationships, and I feel our family needs community, so I'm (cautiously) trying to branch out.
On the other hand, I've learned that getting close to the wrong kinds of people can be risky.
I think my experience really might parallel the experiences and feelings of some QF/P homeschooling families. Espececially if there are concerned people trying to get closer, who seem like they're "looking" to find signs of unhappiness, depression, or abuse.
So in a way I'm trying to advise anyone here who's concerned about a family, and wanting to get closer in order to be a help to that family -- I'm trying to say that your overtures will be more welcome if the mother perceives you as trustworthy, and if she realizes you're genuinely wanting to help and to be a friend, and aren't "investigating" in order to see if intrusive measures are warranted.
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