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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Feb 27, 2010 10:57:06 GMT -5
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Post by coleslaw on Feb 27, 2010 11:31:35 GMT -5
Good grief! What were those people thinking?
I can't imagine having baby after baby and not even being able to enjoy their babyness. Watching them reach for toys, seeing them crawl around and then walk and the ingenuity they use in getting to stuff, hearing them babble, and of course, that wonderful high-pitched baby gurgle first laugh that changes all too soon - who would want to interfere with those magical things? I can only imagine the tremendous terror the idea of disobedient children would have to strike in people to make them willing to do away with all the charm of babies. And anyone who could be terrified by the idea of a disobedient 6 month old really shouldn't be allowed within a country mile of children, let alone be in charge of them.
I don't think there is any question that what happened to you was abuse, Ruth. What else could you call it? Certainly not parenting.
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Post by kiery on Feb 27, 2010 11:37:03 GMT -5
*hug* we never did the Gothard system, but we knew people who did, and their poor kids were just.......*is so sorry*
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Post by xara on Feb 27, 2010 11:41:42 GMT -5
*Hugs* for Ruth. They shouldn't have had responsibility for a houseplant let alone children. No one should have to go abuse.
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em
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Post by em on Feb 27, 2010 12:27:25 GMT -5
*hugs* Poor, Ruth. How awful. That's just cruel. *hugs*
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Post by km on Feb 27, 2010 12:59:56 GMT -5
Ugh... That's awful. I'm so sorry. Fourteen hours shut in a closet at *five* for an accident? And no food? That's so wrong. And, yes, of course you should feel validated in naming it as abuse.
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Post by mommybunny1 on Feb 27, 2010 13:55:15 GMT -5
Ruth, I am so very sorry that your childhood was taken from you this way. How horrible and tragic for everyone in your family.
I am with coleslaw...witnessing the wonder of a world all new is a special gift. The joy of discovery and learning and the laughter of infants and children are special special things. In fact, these are the things that make me hold out that there could be a G-d. Doing the very things that you were trained to fear is exactly what you should have been doing.
The prayer closet story is horrific. At most, I would have made a point that wild play is dangerous and asked you to get your brother and ice cube to soothe the soreness. It was an experience to teach sibling to care for one another when things happen. It opened an opportunity to nurture each other.
I am so glad that you are discovering the joy of living now, even if doing so as a young adult is scary and awkward. We are meant to appreciate true joy and to learn about other people. Thank you for sharing this with us. As a health care professional, I will pay more attention to this.
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aimai
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Post by aimai on Feb 27, 2010 17:54:02 GMT -5
Ruth,
Truly, you have suffered. I can't imagine the sorrow of having been forced to conform, from such an early age, to a system so utterly devoid of sense, or love, or joy, or sensual pleasure. I'm appalled, though not surprised, that your parents were willing to do to you, in the name of g-d, what torturers and inquisitors have done to helpless prisoners throughout history.
aimai
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Feb 27, 2010 18:13:26 GMT -5
Ruth, your days as a child and teen in your home must have felt like an eternity.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 27, 2010 19:21:01 GMT -5
Ruth,
I am so sorry that you went through all that - what joy your parents missed out on by repressing you as a baby and a child. Let alone what joy YOU missed out on by not getting to be one. So very sorry.
Your comment about there being no difference in your mind between hanging a towel wrong and hitting someone (can't remember if that was the comparision exactly) really made me think. I remember when my ex and I followed the Pearl's ideas and that was definitely one of the concepts: that everything the kids did wrong came down to one thing: disobedience. So, if one of the children left their sippy cup in the back yard even when I told him not to - well, he is disobedient. There is no allowance for forgetfulness or being busy, or anything. Everything is treated as defiant sin.
The result of this became something that I am still struggling with with my eldest kids - the ones who got the most of this kind of - dare I say...discipline? (It doesn't deserve that name - it is just brainwashing abuse).
My oldest who are teens now, still sometimes claim that anything they do wrong is only wrong because I, as the parent, say so. They have trouble going beyond parental authority to a universal law - for instance "do unto others..." because when they were little, everything was taken as disobedient to parents. Made it seem to them, as if the only thing that really mattered was not making mom and dad (especially dad) upset. And that things are only wrong because we think they are wrong - not because somethings ARE WRONG.
Thanks again for sharing your story. (((((Ruth))))
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Post by ronica on Feb 27, 2010 22:20:49 GMT -5
I think the thing that blows me away so much is not the abuse (though it is horrific and YES IT IS ABUSE), but that fact that through your disclaimers and your apologetic tone, it is clear that you still feel guilt for thinking it's wrong or abusive. You are still (slightly) defending them, and that makes me so sad. This was wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. I know you can't help the way you feel, but in a few years I hope you are in a place where this isn't even a question any more, where you just see the fact that they abused you and it wasn't OK and you didn't deserve it. You are a victim. It's obvious to me that you still have feelings and love for these people. That is testament to what a wonderful heart you have, Ruth. And honestly, kind of surprising--in this type of situation, I would imagine many sociopaths are bred. It is truly frightening. But this also shows that you have the capacity for healing.
I hope God will be with you as you heal. (((Ruth)))
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Post by asteli on Feb 28, 2010 0:07:04 GMT -5
Ruth, I am so sorry you were abused. And it was abuse, no question. You must be very strong to have come out of it as a sane & decent person. *hugs* if you want them.
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Post by gardenkatz on Feb 28, 2010 2:11:24 GMT -5
"And they brought young children to Him, that He should touch them: and His disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, He was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God' (Mark 10:13-14)."
Is this verse missing from the ATI/Vision Forum/ Bible? How can anyone read that verse and treat their children like this and think they are doing God's will?
Keep up the good work Ruth. Be not Afraid!
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Post by susan on Feb 28, 2010 2:12:10 GMT -5
(((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))) I'm so sorry you were abused like that, Ruth.
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Post by Sierra on Feb 28, 2010 7:36:03 GMT -5
Wow, Ruth. I finally had the chance to read your post, and I am so sorry you had to go through all that. It strikes me that there really is no allowance for love in these teachings. The impulse to dominate and control, and the sadistic pleasure in levying punishments unfit for the 'crimes,' strike me as the products of abuse themselves. It makes me wonder if Gothard and at least one of the Pearls weren't abused as children. Because 'breaking' a baby and demanding perfection of it calls out, 'Hey! It's my turn to be the boss! You can't do this to me anymore.'
My mom subscribed to the following tenets, as taught by our church: -Delayed obedience is disobedience -All disobedience is sin -God does not 'rank' sins - they all equally displease him (it sounds so absurd now!) -Ergo, anything short of instant obedience is akin to murder
But they were merely parroted at me rather than enforced.
I escaped the beating and sadism because my mother simply wouldn't go there. She never followed a child-training manual of any kind, but she tended toward the attachment parenting style. My father was absentee.
I was a sensitive kid. All you had to do was frown at me and I would cry about it for hours. I don't know if I would have survived in a Pearl-following family.
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Post by calluna on Feb 28, 2010 10:06:35 GMT -5
(((ruth))) Cyber hugs seem so trite, but I really am sorry that this sort of thing happened to you.
THANK YOU for sharing your story. Because *I* *was* heading down that path. I have attended the Basic Principle seminar twice, wanted to go to the Advanced, but was always "hindered" (THANK GOD I WAS!)
I was homeschooled and I listened to all these teachers, but this stuff was never enforced in our home. My dad just had "better things to do" and thank God he did.
But sharing your story gives me enlightment on how things turn wrong with these teachings that are made to sound sooooo good.
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Post by km on Feb 28, 2010 10:51:30 GMT -5
I think the thing that blows me away so much is not the abuse (though it is horrific and YES IT IS ABUSE), but that fact that through your disclaimers and your apologetic tone, it is clear that you still feel guilt for thinking it's wrong or abusive. You are still (slightly) defending them, and that makes me so sad. This was wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. I know you can't help the way you feel, but in a few years I hope you are in a place where this isn't even a question any more, where you just see the fact that they abused you and it wasn't OK and you didn't deserve it. You are a victim. It's obvious to me that you still have feelings and love for these people. That is testament to what a wonderful heart you have, Ruth. And honestly, kind of surprising--in this type of situation, I would imagine many sociopaths are bred. It is truly frightening. But this also shows that you have the capacity for healing. Ronica: My sense was not that Ruth is defending any of these practices here. I only noticed that she feels defensive of her brothers in the post, which I think is completely understandable given that they were also children who were entrenched in an abusive system. Also, I could see that she was writing from a perspective of having defended her experiences against those who would say that "the problem isn't the ATIA teachings. Rather, it's the fact that your family members were abusive." In opposition to that claim, she clearly demonstrates that the ATI/QF/P teachings lead to abusive "disciplinary" practices in her own home. I think this series could be incredibly helpful/instructive for people who are researching homeschool curriculum and considering bringing ATIA into their own homes. So, I guess I'm just saying... What you read as apologetic, I read as strategically geared toward a certain audience for the purpose of advocacy. Besides that, though, I do want to affirm that what Ruth is naming as abuse is/was abuse. It can be hard to get to the point of naming these kinds of practices for what they were, and I know that it was very validating for me when others could also see that what I experienced as abuse was, in fact, abusive. It is not uncommon for abusive families to be in denial about the abuse, and those of us who come out of such experiences sometimes feel a little nervous about whether or not we'll continue to be invalidated in the outside world as we were in our families. I can't speak to Ruth's feelings or motivations, but I know that it was helpful for me to find that outsiders could see what I was saying--and never thought that I was "crazy" or "deluded" for interpreting my experiences as abuse (the way my family always had).
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Post by razingruth on Feb 28, 2010 14:44:03 GMT -5
Hi guys, I have to make this quick for two reasons. 1. I'm on my way to a study group/lab. 2. This is just a really hard topic for me to spend time thinking about when I don't have support people (physically) around me. Someone mentioned that it still comes off as me being protective of my parents and not maybe defending their actions for not calling abuse "abuse". You're right. For me, these actions were normal growing up. At some level, I really believed that all children were brought up with this sort of discipline and I was told that those who weren't were lost to evil (the wolves). It wasn't until I was much older (probably in my late teens and thinking about leaving) that I figured out that people didn't use prayer closets as punishments. That's part of the reason ATI/QF/Fundamentalist/Cults isolate people - to make them think that the way life is being lived is the only way. I have a hard time defining abuse because to me it's normal and that's part of what my therapist is having me discover before I get into any other relationships. I'm a prime target for more abuse - I know this.
I love my mother. If I'm honest with myself, I love my father as much as I despise his methods. That makes it doubly hard to call what they did abuse (even though it was).
Thank you for your words of encouragement. GIANT HUGS IN RETURN
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Post by xara on Feb 28, 2010 17:17:35 GMT -5
*hugs* for Ruth. Hang in there. And I agree when abuse is normal to you, you need to see other options before you can name it abuse.
Take care.
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Post by km on Feb 28, 2010 17:52:43 GMT -5
Ruth: I just have a quick question for you if you have a moment to answer. I've been seeing a lot of evangelical language here, mostly used as a way to comfort and encourage you. I know that I personally have had a fraught relationship with this kind of language, and I sometimes find it triggering. I can see that the people who are using this language mean to be kind and encouraging, and I wonder if the best way to deal with this matter is to check in with you?
Do you identify as a Christian? If not (or, actually, even if you are and find the lingo triggering as I do), then I want to be careful not to use language that speaks to Christian experience, etc. as a means of encouragement. In other words, I don't want to jump on people and assume that this is automatically problematic for you, but if it is problematic for you... I hope that this feels like a safe place to say so.
Apologies if you've already clarified this matter elsewhere and I've just been too dense to find it!
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Post by francescateresa on Feb 28, 2010 18:15:24 GMT -5
I have been a 'lurker' on this site for quite a long time. I found NLQ due to concerns I had about my step-son's mother and step-father, their new found fundamentalism, and subsequent child abuse issues in their home.
My step-son's experiences have lead me to want to find out about the Q/F and fundie perspectives and their respective theological underpinnings, etc.
I want to thank each and every one of the contributors and commentators.
Also, Ruth, Thank you for this post. Your coping mechanisms that you mentioned in this post are the same as my step-son's.
((((( hugs for Ruth )))))
* I edited out a type-o
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Post by razingruth on Feb 28, 2010 19:57:09 GMT -5
km- I don't know how I indentify myself right now. My heart wants to believe in a loving, nurturing God, who promotes and inspires good in others. I want to believe that with all my heart and, to that extent, I pray for it. It may sound strange, but I pray that God will show me this is true. My head, on the other hand, tells me that truly bad things can happen when people become too invested in believing they follow God. Even if that belief and devotion is with the best of intentions, it can lead to the most horrible outcomes and so I have to question what sort of all-knowing, all-powerful God would allow those things to happen to innocents. I think it's safest to say I'm in flux. I want to believe but I am struggling to accept. I'm not bothered by the words of love and encouragement that I've received here or elsewhere. If something triggers a feeling within me, I try to remember that it was said by someone who wants good things for me. If I ask people to excuse something offensive I might say (or consider the context in which I say it), then I have to excuse them.
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phatchick
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Post by phatchick on Feb 28, 2010 21:26:35 GMT -5
{{{{{Ruth}}}}} I am so sorry you kids had to go through that. I'm sure you've heard it before but I have to say it, your father shouldn't have been allowed to raise a goldfish, let alone children. Reading that broke my heart.
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phatchick
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Medicated for Your Protection
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Post by phatchick on Feb 28, 2010 21:38:38 GMT -5
Ronica: My sense was not that Ruth is defending any of these practices here. I only noticed that she feels defensive of her brothers in the post, which I think is completely understandable given that they were also children who were entrenched in an abusive system. And, sadly, Divide and Conquer is, IME, a part of fundy family life. You do NOT want the kids banding together against you, especially when they reach their teens. So you pit them against each other by making older kids responsible for younger kids behavior (but don't give them the authority to back it up). And in true bootcamp form, punish everyone for one person's infractions. By the time you're done, the kids trust only the parents (even if it is only for negative reasons) and have little or no bonds with each other at all. Friends wonder why I don't have a lot of interaction with my younger siblings. I just tell them we were never a terribly close family; I just don't tell them why.
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Post by km on Mar 1, 2010 9:14:28 GMT -5
km- I don't know how I indentify myself right now. My heart wants to believe in a loving, nurturing God, who promotes and inspires good in others. I want to believe that with all my heart and, to that extent, I pray for it. It may sound strange, but I pray that God will show me this is true. My head, on the other hand, tells me that truly bad things can happen when people become too invested in believing they follow God. Even if that belief and devotion is with the best of intentions, it can lead to the most horrible outcomes and so I have to question what sort of all-knowing, all-powerful God would allow those things to happen to innocents. I think it's safest to say I'm in flux. I want to believe but I am struggling to accept. I'm not bothered by the words of love and encouragement that I've received here or elsewhere. If something triggers a feeling within me, I try to remember that it was said by someone who wants good things for me. If I ask people to excuse something offensive I might say (or consider the context in which I say it), then I have to excuse them. Hey, thanks for answering this. I just wanted to check in to see how you were feeling about this stuff. By the way, I can relate a lot to your feelings about faith. I've been in flux for *years* and find that I'm more comfortable just staying in flux than I was when I felt certain about anything. I call myself an agnostic Christian.
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