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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 13, 2010 19:50:27 GMT -5
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Post by usotsuki on Mar 13, 2010 20:44:12 GMT -5
Ugh! And you know they're gonna trot out that verse to justify things, "oh, I'm older than you so you can't question anything I do or say, because that's what ghed says" (abusing and taking 1 Timothy 5.1a completely out of context, as was normal where I grew up). It makes it worse when they put you in a double-bind like that. >_<
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Post by susan on Mar 13, 2010 20:51:05 GMT -5
Oh, Ruth! ((((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))) I'm so sorry for all that you were put through! I've just shared your article with my daughter who's about to turn 10 next month, and here's what she wants me to say about it -- "I think that all children have rights, and that they shouldn't be treated like robots just to get them to be obedient. And I think the way that they train kids is stupid."
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phatchick
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Post by phatchick on Mar 13, 2010 21:55:04 GMT -5
{{{{{Ruth}}}}} Oh god, Ruth, it makes me sick to think of any kid going through something like that! I am so sorry that happened to you and your brothers, you deserved a lot better.
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Post by kiery on Mar 13, 2010 22:25:14 GMT -5
((((Ruth)))) sooo sorry
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Mar 14, 2010 1:06:21 GMT -5
Ruth, this awful treatment wasn't your fault, and I believe God loves you exactly the way you always were and are...He loves you, everything about you, that deep true you...YOU. God loves you. From birth. From before birth. And continuing into now.
Sorry if this is off-putting to anyone who's tired of "God"...but I gotta be honest, I believe in Him, and I believe He loves Ruth. The poisonous, toxic, cruel, unfair, soul-crushing abuse of children STILL cannot separate them from the love of Christ.
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Post by margybargy on Mar 14, 2010 9:47:17 GMT -5
Ruth, I'm so glad you're out of there and getting some help. How sick. When I hear your story and others like it, I think of my own sweet daughter. How can people treat children like this? It's inhumane. It's irrational. I don't care how much Jesus-paint they try to cover it up with. It's just plain wrong.
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Post by xara on Mar 14, 2010 10:54:51 GMT -5
Hugs to Ruth.
If an order makes no sense or seems dangerous, a kid should ABSOLUTELY be able to feel as though she can question it or refuse to follow it.
Teaching a kid to suppress that healthy response is dangerous.
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phatchick
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Post by phatchick on Mar 14, 2010 11:00:48 GMT -5
The more I read about these people, the more pissed off I get. What I wouldn't give for 10 minutes in a locked room with Bill Gothard and a big stick.
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Post by lg61820 on Mar 14, 2010 11:14:32 GMT -5
Ruth, Your home life sounded so much like the Stanford Prison Experiment that I had to Bing it and read about it. You should read about it too. It shows that absolute power over another individual is a very dangerous thing to have. It also shows what damage can be done to the powerless person in the situation.
The things that were done in your family were wrong and appear to have been pure evil. I am so sorry that your childhood was full of suffering. I hope things are better for you now.
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Post by debrand on Mar 14, 2010 14:38:43 GMT -5
Ruth, that was so sad that it hurts to read. There is a similar obedience training session in the Pearls' book To Train Up A Child. Were your parents influenced by the Pearls or did the idea for these types of training sessions come from somewhere else?
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Post by krwordgazer on Mar 14, 2010 19:34:53 GMT -5
I found this story very, very disturbing. Has anyone read William Sleator's House of Stairs? www.amazon.com/House-Stairs-William-Sleator/dp/0140345809/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268613130&sr=1-1One by one, five sixteen-year-old orphans are brought to a strange building. It is not a prison, not a hospital; it has no walls, no ceiling, no floor. Nothing but endless flights of stairs leading nowhere —except back to a strange red machine. The five must learn to love the machine and let it rule their lives. But will they let it kill their souls? It is so hard to realize this isn't just science fiction; that people actually raise their own children in such a soul-killing way. And yet, like the protagonists in Sleator's book, you refused to let yours die, Ruth. You are amazing.
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Post by dangermom on Mar 14, 2010 20:47:13 GMT -5
I've read that book. I see what you mean.
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Post by loverofpurple on Mar 14, 2010 22:32:35 GMT -5
Ruth,
This is just sickening. I'm so sorry. All of you ladies are sooo brave to recount your stories. If they are this hard to read, it's hard to imagine how hard it must be to relive/write. Thank you, though, because this stuff needs to be known. I hope your life is a whole lot better now.
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Post by denelian on Mar 15, 2010 3:45:49 GMT -5
WTF *is* it with sexual predators then turning around and accusing their VICTIMS of being "sexually enticing" or whatever?!?! if it makes you feel any better - telling that man "no" [even if he didn't then go straight to your dad and get you in trouble for THAT] probably would have led to something much worse that's what i learned, anyway - adult male with authority wants something sexual, saying no = something broken. and chances are [if i read it correctly] he'd have hurt your brother then told you "if only you'd done what i told you, your brother would be fine." sick, sick you have *hugs* and GoodThoughts - this shit is SO HARD to work through!!! and good luck, too.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 15, 2010 10:37:02 GMT -5
Ooooba-dooba, Ruth! I know the Duggars have said they play "games" to teach the kids obedience. I bet this is the "game." Rick Boyer goes on and on about "basic German Shepard" training kids to be instantly, willingly and blah blah obediant.
This brings to mind a tragic case involving McDonald's and a young woman from a very religious family. This occured a few years ago and was well-covered in the Louisville, KY and national media [Dateline or 20/20 I think]. A young woman, working at McDonalds, had grown up with this type discipline. A phone hoaxer called the restaurant and got the manager on duty. The male manager, being truly stupid, believed the caller was in fact the police. The hoaxer described a "generic" young woman and the Manager said "yes" they had "her", at the callers request she was brought in, STRIP SEARCHED. At one point another employee came to the door--the girl was given a plastic apron to put on. The employee did nothing. The caller and manager went on to do a body cavity search and later perform sex acts on her.
In trial, when the attorney for McDonald's [for whom I then worked] asked if it occurred to her to SCREAM people lambasted him for insensativity. As a father, he was truly horrified by the crime--be even more so that this poor young woman "took" it all without even trying to get away or get help.
It's sad that so many of the parents who NEED to hear this won't--they don't have "worldly" tv and wouldn't watch a "pornographic" discussion of this case. Yet it happened, others were in the working area of the restuarant at the time and no one did anything.
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 15, 2010 10:39:13 GMT -5
((((Ruth)))) I have no words.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 16, 2010 9:23:58 GMT -5
"Parents, when you’re teaching your children obedience, make sure they understand that there are some orders that a child has a right to deny. Otherwise, you’re creating the perfect victim."
Yes - and the flip side of that is you're also creating the perfect abuser who feels no compunction or pangs of conscience because he was brought up to obey order unquestioningly. This is, of course, the very excuse that Nazi soldiers used to put people in gas chambers.
((((((((Ruth)))))))))
Oh my goodness. Those obedience games are the very definition of the "double binds" that they have found as one of the causes of serious mental illness. You must be a such a strong lady to have fought this and come out on the other side. You are truly a survivor!
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Post by margybargy on Mar 16, 2010 10:00:44 GMT -5
Oh my goodness. Those obedience games are the very definition of the "double binds" that they have found as one of the causes of serious mental illness. You must be a such a strong lady to have fought this and come out on the other side. You are truly a survivor! [/quote]
That's interesting about "double binds" causing mental illness. It makes me wonder how much our society suffers as a whole because of these child rearing practices. So sad. Such a needless waste.
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Post by francescateresa on Mar 16, 2010 10:04:01 GMT -5
(((((((((((Ruth)))))))))))
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Post by cereselle on Mar 16, 2010 12:33:00 GMT -5
Lisa Whelchel is apparently a Christian parenting guru now (hey, she was on Facts of Life, so she must know what she's talking about, right?) She also "plays" these obedience games with her kids. “As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them silly commands that they must obey without arguing, such as ‘Walk backward,’ or ‘Stop and touch your toes,’ or ‘Give me a kiss.’ Occasionally I’ll throw in a real command, like ‘Don’t touch that,’ or ‘No, you may not have an Icee.’ My favorite curve, however, is to say no to some reasonable request, like ‘May I go to the bathroom?’” Creative Correction, p. 138. Let me ramble for a bit here... I am not a mom. I will never be a mom. The closest I'll come to that is watching my nieces and nephews when their parents go out. But the first time I took my eight-year-old niece shopping, I told her to hold my hand crossing the street. And she did. And it hit me-- this child will do what I tell her. And immediately afterward-- this is an awesome and terrifying responsibility. I'm still not used to the idea that I'm a grownup. The fact that I'm seen as an authority figure to be obeyed is sobering. Knowing that I'm so implicitly trusted by small human beings, and knowing how easily trust can be taken advantage of, abused and broken, makes me absolutely determined NEVER to do anything that could cause them harm. When I was engaged to Rob, we visited his family and went Christmas shopping with one of his sisters and her kids. Her oldest was three. I told her I was going to be her aunt, and her eyes opened wide. "You're my aunt? Oh!" And an hour later, in the car, she stopped singing a little song to tell me, "I love you." I almost cried. Just-- kids are so fragile, they are so vulnerable. How can anyone hurt them like this? How can they not feel that tremendous and weighty responsibility to protect and care for them?
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Post by usotsuki on Mar 16, 2010 13:04:15 GMT -5
Lisa Whelchel is apparently a Christian parenting guru now (hey, she was on Facts of Life, so she must know what she's talking about, right?) She also "plays" these obedience games with her kids. “As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them silly commands that they must obey without arguing, such as ‘Walk backward,’ or ‘Stop and touch your toes,’ or ‘Give me a kiss.’ Occasionally I’ll throw in a real command, like ‘Don’t touch that,’ or ‘No, you may not have an Icee.’ My favorite curve, however, is to say no to some reasonable request, like ‘May I go to the bathroom?’” Creative Correction, p. 138. Emphasis mine. :@?! That's torture!
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Post by sisof9 on Mar 16, 2010 15:46:44 GMT -5
WHY ON EARTH would you tell a child no about going to the bathroom?? how sadistic can you be? unless i am missing something and she is teasing them?
I am not opposed to "obedience games" within reason - I think it CAN be helpful for a toddler, as long as you are making it fun and not doing the Pearl's "put something in their reach they want and smack them when they follow their natural instinct" *ugh*
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Post by asteli on Mar 16, 2010 18:03:45 GMT -5
No, she's not teasing. Yes it is sick.
*hugs* if want them Ruth!
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Post by krwordgazer on Mar 17, 2010 12:42:21 GMT -5
With regards to the "perfect victim" scenario, I read an article not long ago that said that it is the children who are taught this kind of obedience who will get into the car of a stranger who pulls up to the curb and says, "Your dad sent me. He says you are to go with me right now."
The children who have not been taught this kind of obedience/authoritarian control will hesitate, ask questions, even run away. One child, questioned after an incident where he escaped by running away, said his father had taught him to think for himself, and the whole thing seemed fishy to him.
Another bad result of this kind of authoritarian teaching is the learned helplessness. Children will grow up believing authority is arbitrary, capricious, and that rules need have no basis in rationality.
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