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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 14, 2010 7:06:24 GMT -5
The 49 Character Qualities of Ruth #14: Sensitivity vs. Callousness - Exercising my senses so I can perceive the true spirit and emotions of those around me (Romans 12:15) by Razing Ruth nolongerquivering.com/2010/04/14/the-49-character-qualities-of-ruth-14/In order to catch up on Ruth's story, today will be "Razing Ruth Day" here at NLQ. We're behind by three installments ~ I'm planning to post #15 and #16 later today. Thanks, Ruth
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Post by hopewell on Apr 14, 2010 8:09:22 GMT -5
Glad to see more of your story here, Ruth! First, rituals like birthdays DO mean a lot to the child and I'm sorry ATI doesn't recognize this, but I'm glad you Dad let it go to some extent. I really don't see anything "wrong" with the gifts you and your brother received for the most part. My kids often receive new jammies for birthday [useful] and sometimes other "practical" gifts. The big gift is picking a special dinner, Grandma comes over and yes, there are a few small presents like a new DVD. Now that my kids are older my son usually wants to "do" something as his gift and my daughter usually choose a slumber party with 2 or 3 friends. Not at all lavish compared to many of their classmates, but they seem fine with it. SECOND: I always wondered if the Duggars "really" did birthday parties, or if that was done to make them look "normal" or "mainstream." They do sing a different birthday song and mention that the child gets one-on-one time with the parents.
Your posts and very interesting and you are doing a real service in helping people understand the good and the bad of the life style. While I happen to think the bad out weighs the good, I genuinely appreciate it when you remind us it wasn't all bad and that each family IS different in how they live.
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Post by auntbee on Apr 14, 2010 9:04:24 GMT -5
Thanks for posting your experience. I've been to the Seminar a few times when i was young ,and i had NO idea about any of that. Wow. I've been around and studied Jehovahs Witnesses, and realized there are similarities between Gothardism and the Watchtower. I almost wonder if at some point he was influenced by them in some way? Gothard and his ilk tend also to be pretty "apocalyptic" and have no problem scaring young children with fears about the Rapture and Armageddon.
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Post by janedoe on Apr 14, 2010 11:24:34 GMT -5
Ruth I don't know what to say really, other than my reactions to your story and the strongest I had was the anger or irritation of thinking how if Men were the ones to give birth there would be national Holidays, not just birthdays...[arrrgh] and that your story is sad, really sad. But then all the stories here are sad, no one should have to experience or live through these abuses and they Are abuses. Ironically I had birthday parties, but only within the family [once was allowed to invite a first boyfriend, huge mistake--the abuser chose that event-dinner to humiliate me in front of him--and these events were deliberate and would escalate into violence, which was one of the common techniques to break me down] but anyway, obviously now I hate birthdays, while they were these mock celebrations they really were more of a reminder of why I should be punished for bringing such misery into the abuser's life...and the cake was poison...that I had to sit through and pretend not to hurt and to smile...so yea, funny how birthdays can work both ways to abuse, humiliate, reduce and diminish one's human worth, because birthdays are Personal and not just to the child, but to the Mother who gave birth to that child, maybe that is what angers or perturbs me the most when reading this is that on one hand I'm thinking, OK well I thought the whole purpose was that women have numerous children as one of the signs of God's blessings yet on the other hand now we make the birthdays following minimal events so not to be 'worldly' I suppose is the logic used or that birthday parties are pagan or something, so it's almost like the belief says, you're to have all these children as specified to your role ordained by God yet you are to then feel unworthy and force humility for doing so, taking your punishment and well, yea like RA, it's just screwed up. Different reasonings but still screwed up...and I can't help but notice, Gothard, Gothard, is this truly the beliefs around Jesus or around Gothard, books and other people? Who have taken it upon themselves to be 'spokespeople' for God? Sorry but I have to ask, this seems to be the trend in every denomination too, not just QF, and Maybe that's where the problem lies. Case in point, the mentioning of the scripture ,
Romans 12:15, 5Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn.
OK so now where does This come in???
Sensitivity vs. Callousness – Exercising my senses so I can perceive the true spirit and emotions of those around me (Romans 12:15) – Bill Gothard’s Character Traits
Exercising my 'senses', I thought we were to be transformed by the Holy Spirit, not by exercising our 'sense's? How then, if that is true and I don't believe it is, would one reconcile that with this scripture?
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
that isn't just referring to 'sensual' as in sexual but sensual as in following the Senses, taste, touch, smell, hear, etc., rather than spirit, men who come in [what Jude was referring to] demanding certain things, being sensual for ungodly lusts, lusts referring to desires, ungodly can also refer to Legalism...Control, Lordship, etc.
See I guess what I'm trying to understand is that it almost seems as if these books, that are often mentioned are more along the lines of self-asceticism, not the self-restraint our of Love for others [so not to offend, be a stumbling block, inspired by Loving others--but this type of asceticism that destroys love and instills fear and reliance on 'self']
In 1 Timothy 4:1-5 St. Paul says, “Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will renounce the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared with a hot iron. They forbid marriage and demand abstinence from foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, provided it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by God's word and by prayer.”
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come ..." (Colossians 2:16-17, King James Version).
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. Colossians 2: 20-22
Not to advocate the Other extreme, license to do what we please under Grace, that isn't Love either,
but there is surely a pattern of asceticism in these books/leader's teachings and is clearly noticeable. In this aspect it's almost as if Gothard and these other teachers have more in common with Eastern ascetics, seems to be a real trend these days too,
could this be a result of a too free society and abuse of liberty in society/churches? [not that it Excuses it by no means but it seems like even among secular groups, particularly among the young adults, this whole ascetics worship is taking off, sad to say, and in the extremes at that].
Somewhere I read something about asceticism and nepotism within Islamic societies but I can't recall where, but it sure sounds familiar to what many describe here, particularly where the effects on children are concerned, where love is ridiculed and replaced with duty and strict observances, to the point where sacrificing one's children as martyrs is so normalized that society doesn't even question it. Scary really, but humans are capable of this. Governments love this because it's the perfect tool for 'controlling the masses' and keeping them in line,
works better than prozac. [sorry little dig there against Big Brother]
Or is it prozac is necessary [or other forms of front brain lobotomies, especially in Women] evil when the spirit in humans which longs to be free from tyranny and longs to breathe, decides that death would be better than life and then well, kind of hard to have a slave labor force with mass suicides so yea, like...hmmmm
yep can't have any Joy or Breathing now, might spark a fire for something else, like throwing off the yoke of despots...
You know, you all should have one Huge birthday bash, Parade and all, right in front of some big QF place, LOL, [yea terrible but oh well, :0 ],
big pink cars and balloons and music and the whole works...Seriously,
hell I would. Actually got the idea years ago from a really radical and awesome young feminist, who once said, after all the times she's been called whore and slut, that by golly, where's her damn parade and her pink Cadillac with a hood ornament of a pink vagina, with some French slogan slamming patriarchy, Pas de libération de femmes, something along those lines but she wasn't as 'lady like' about it, LOL,
yea I liked her, crazy young woman with a lot of spunk and just brave,
seriously, a huge Birthday parade, you all should organize something.
Because you're worth celebrating, Right? Your birth AND your mother's giving you birth? Tree of LIFE, you know,
take back what's been stolen and robbed you know...sometimes that's the best justice there is.
Happy Birthday Ruth, and to the rest of you....if I had a care package for all of you I'd send it, with cotton candy and good movies and amusement parks and trips to the zoo and the whole shebang...
and I know, on every birthday, God celebrates your birth and you, and would have made you a feast, for every single one of you, Every birthday.
to weep with those who weep is to be empathetic, that comes from knowing love, not by exercising self denial
and rejoicing with those who rejoice, that comes from knowing love too, knowing how precious one is to someone, how valuable they are, to share in that..not by exercising self denial
if one has to Exercise senses to love,
they have missed not only the boat, but the whole dang coast line.
Love,
Jane
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Post by dangermom on Apr 14, 2010 12:50:42 GMT -5
I'm all sad for the little Ruth and siblings, each wanting a cupcake! The rationale that if the world does it, Christians should not is pretty troubling. The world eats dinner, wears shoes, and enjoys picnics in the park.
It's interesting that even "Happy Birthday" was too worldly. I'm curious as to what the words to a Christian happy birthday song are. My own church has several different birthday songs in the children's songbook, because each child gets sung to on the right week, which means you sing every week, and you want to change it up a bit (and IIRC the HB song is still in copyright), but they're just cheery little songs, there's nothing very specific about them.
I'm looking forward to seeing more Ruth posts today.
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Post by arietty on Apr 14, 2010 18:56:56 GMT -5
I have known a couple homeschool families that had no birthdays, and no Christmas as well. In both these families it was 100% the father's idea, and he was just a control freak jerk about it. Both of them seemed to get some great pleasure out of NOT having birthdays and sermonizing to anyone who would listen about why his kids were spared this horrible paganism.
There is something about withholding enjoyment from others that controlling personalities really run with.
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Post by freefromtyranny on Apr 14, 2010 20:26:11 GMT -5
so sad
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Post by musicmom on Apr 14, 2010 21:34:03 GMT -5
I have known a couple homeschool families that had no birthdays, and no Christmas as well. In both these families it was 100% the father's idea, and he was just a control freak jerk about it. Both of them seemed to get some great pleasure out of NOT having birthdays and sermonizing to anyone who would listen about why his kids were spared this horrible paganism. There is something about withholding enjoyment from others that controlling personalities really run with. That is too true, Arietty I began to dread birthdays, holidays and any kind of celebrations beyond the strictest religious ones. My ex just felt it his bounded duty to ruin each and every family celebration we had. We'd all work so hard - decorate, cook a great meal, the kids would be so excited. Then Daddy would get home and find some trivial, tiny thing that was wrong and the whole thing would be derailed and we'd all be sitting their with resigned faces once again. Definitely, he was uncomfortable with any joy.
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Post by Ex-Adriel on Apr 15, 2010 18:48:04 GMT -5
Here's where I actually ENVY Ruth - her experiences with the birthdays are shared (at least as described so far) by her brothers...
Thankfully, we did have birthdays that were semi-normal. I even remember a skating-party one time (all girls, all in skirts with long hair - we must have looked SO strange...)
We didn't do Christmas or Easter for a long time - it was a Pagan celebration, we were meant to uplift the Jewish people (Hanukkah with no presents - what fun! and oh man, Passover bitter herbs instead of chocolate bunnies. Yay us.) There are pictures of christmas trees and christmas portraits of me when I was tiny, but I was too young to remember. By the time I was participating, it was all religion, and deadly serious.
Oddly enough, once my brothers were born (10 years younger than me) it was 'unfair to them' to deprive them of their cultural heritage and guess what holidays came blazing back with trees and stockings and presents and Easter baskets for the boys.
It was (still is) infuriating. I did get presents as well, but since I was 'older' and 'knew they were pagan institutions, obviously I didn't WANT presents, because I wanted to be like Christ and avoid sin' so I got trinkets to their big-ticket items.
I think the one that's most memorable is the time I got a broken second-hand bicycle, the tools to repair it, and a hitch to attach to it, so I could pull the brand new high-sided red wagon the boys got around the neighborhood with them in it.
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Post by janedoe on Apr 15, 2010 20:30:41 GMT -5
We didn't do Christmas or Easter for a long time - it was a Pagan celebration, we were meant to uplift the Jewish people (Hanukkah with no presents - what fun! and oh man, Passover bitter herbs instead of chocolate bunnies. Yay us.) My husband wanted to know, they don't do bitter herb as main course do they? There is far more to Pesach than bitter herbs??? Just curious, but where do they get their ideas of Judaism? Because, my husband, Orthodox Jew, and one thing I've notice's, they do a lot of referencing of Jews and Judaism, For one, Hanukkah, we have 8 days of gifts for all the kids [we celebrate both, families may differ on this, we do small gifts and one big gift the first night or on the last, this past year we did the big gift on the first] and we set up lights and decor [it's blue and gold of course] and the whole thing, it's just as festive as Christmas. I will say, that Hanukkah I think has far more Spiritual meaning than Christmas, it seem to me to come out more, maybe because it's not been hijacked with the commercialism. Passover or Pesach, is more than bitter herbs, LOL, no starch, no leaven, Anywhere in house, though I don't observe to those standards...[have thought/and we've discussed but well, long story, he's observant on some things and on some he's not, but with the recent anti-antisemitism in our area That may soon be changing, no need to go into this here]. [btw liberal or reformed Jews don't observe all the standards but Kosher where food is concerned I know they do, etc] my point is, I have noticed that the QF take from like OT and say it's Jewish but like it's way off, from what the Torah is, Especially marriage and Gender Roles, most Jewish women I know would smack those men upside the heads. And I do mean that Literally, don't get me wrong, Judaism has it's own issues with Patriarchy believe me, but, LOL, some of the stuff coming out of QF in this guise of 'following OT law' is downright Laughable, so I'm curious as to where they Get their ideas from, because even in OT, they are still, Way off, does QF celebrate the Sabbath-Chavis on Saturday? do they drink the wine? Because, that's another thing, with this whole anti-wine thing, tell any Jew they can't drink wine, and on Chavis [Kosher though, of course] and you'll hear, bwaaa lol lol lol lol lol... esp hitting Friday night. me's think the QF need to go hang out in the ole neighborhood for a while, and learn what Judaism really is, one thing, Birthdays, [actually the wine thing the Christians at least western seem to have it way off too, when I told my husband that the wine in NT, where many churches say, was more like grape juice, I thought he was going to piss in his pants, literally, laughing. tell any Jewish mother she can't celebrate her child's birthday hmmmmm, thinking about my mother in law here, LOL, uh, yea, husband 50 years old and still, Still goes to his birthday celebration mother gives [lunch, gifts, etc], I wouldn't THINK of even telling, even Hinting, at telling her no go this year, yea, Right...this year she gave his this 'I'm special tee shirt' and my son Always get clocks, LOL, 9 years old and wall clocks, OK.. I love her, she's a Riot, and the Farthest thing from submissive, ROFL, in fact, a tad controlling, like the Mothers seem to RULE the houses in Judaism, the Husband might be the lead but what Mother says goes...usually, though I have heard of some horrible abuses too, within Jewish homes, but it's not like this 'accepted norm', at least not what I have seen. so it's interesting where they [QF] get their fundamentalisms from, because it sure as heck, isn't Judaism. Jane
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Post by Ex-Adriel on Apr 16, 2010 15:23:53 GMT -5
I don't know about how traditional QF families do it - like I said, I had no idea until this past year that that's what we were!
I do know that my mother was very heavily into Jews for Jesus, and my father was tolerant of her religious quirks.
All I can remember of Passover was lots of odd foods in little tiny dishes, and matzo crackers, and wine (yes, we did drink real wine) and lots of prayers and repetitive speech-things (like call and response type?) in Hebrew that certain family members had to say and do for it to be correct.
Hannukah was lots of prayers, candle-lighting, and no presents. There were supposed to be presents, we knew that. However, since I still got 'real' presents from relatives on Christmas (we had no QF or Fundie relatives) mother didn't support buying 8 more days of presents for no reason.
For a while, we did celebrate Sabbath, but it was hard as there wasn't a church or homegroup that did the same, and father was involved in a church, so we HAD to worship on Sunday - I think the eventual compromise was that Sabbath observance was at the start of every month.
We also did first-fruits from the garden, and whatever holiday it is where you build little arbors in your yard to live in? That one's really fuzzy, but I know it happened at least a few years in a row - I remember being totally humiliated by having to stand and listen to my mother explaining (trying to convert) the neighbors every year....
It's all a bit fuzzy, because when I turned 12, father considered the boys old enough to reinstate Christmas and Easter, and all of the "jewish nonsense" even on other dates vanished completely.
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Post by janedoe on Apr 16, 2010 16:41:01 GMT -5
Ex-Adriel,
I'm glad you replied, you know I had thought about the Messianic Jews, like maybe going on a Saturday since I don't the church thing [I'm a believer in Jesus but the churches just trigger way, WAY to much so I stick to worshiping outdoors/ it's lonely yea but, a lot easier than dealing with the wanting to blow up in a pew, LOL, I tried to go back but one pastor-guest and this was in a moderate start ed with the whole you must submit to authority no matter What/forgetting women are in the pews, and I'm thinking, of a boss who once said, screw me or lose your job, I lost the job, and thought, so I'm supposed to Submit to THAT?! And then God will 'protect me', well I walked out and lit up a cig right in the parking lot, fuming at God and well--yea, I'm just not of the mind to deal with that misogynist/mind control toxic dominion crap anymore].
But I am glad, you wrote because I kept having like this hesitation...while my husband is Orthodox [from extreme Orthodox] he doesn't observe all the laws, I think because his first wife was Lutheran and so now he can't be buried in Jewish cemetery, I mean, yea there is a lot of legalism there but I think, like with religious/doctrines of man Christianity, so much was Added to 'laws' that had nothing to do with OT law, I know, he told me they added like 500 plus some laws,
now I think, that those laws were mixed or like an osmosis of pagan cultures in those days [B.C.] because they sure sound more familiar when reading about those ancient cultures to those other culture-laws than anything I've read in the first five books, etc. And the whole thing which is kind of ironic is that it says in NT, if you Obey the law, you must obey every single ONE,
well, I don't see any atonement sheep/doves being gathered by every family today? You know,
so, yea...and matzo crackers, yea, yuck, LOL...like Cardboard folks, just cut ya some cereal boxes, yum, LOL, and I thought those Quaker 'oat cakes' were bad, remember those? Those round things, just perfect with cottage cheese they said [back in 80s I think] yea, like Right,
hand me those chips and dip like NOW, ROFL.
I would Never be a good Orthodox...
my husband grew up with that thought, went to the Yeshiva and the whole works, and I think that is why he probably rebels so much now against even government, very anarchist, well, of course he hangs onto the whole 'males are entitled' crap...go figure, why I love the term,
'malearchy',
LOL.
But I thought the Messianic would be a bit more free, maybe not, and I don't know if I'm strong enough, to like, tip my toe in and find out. I don't mind doing the Sabbath on Saturday though--not like I ever did much on Saturday's anyway, but it took some getting used to.
I will always do Christmas, it was the only time remember in childhood I looked forward to, so it has personal meaning...yea, the whole don't do holidays and eat this and that,
to me, just, it's Suffocating, it's bad enough, just dealing with the hassles of life without adding a ton more burdens. Besides, I think, really, the whole message of the Gospel, was not obeying 'laws' but knowing Mercy,
and reaching out to those in need, to Love. And thing is, following laws people can do, hell we have HOW many laws on the books today in our society? Loving people, really loving,
including those who hate us,
that's not so easy...and it's not something we can do, I don't think, without some kind of transformation--that only God can do. Oh people can be tolerant, liberal, etc.,
but that's not the same, as love, laying down one's goals so others can live...including those who are unlovable. That may be, why there has always been Religion, or Knowledge/man's wisdom,
the 'lie' that really, is just avoiding, the light and hiding the evil. That mask...we don't get to the light, with that mask on--but with the darkness still there, other wise, how do we ever see it?
Laws I think, are one of the most hardest masks to remove--or hiding behind them.
In solidarity,
Jane
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Post by usotsuki on Apr 16, 2010 18:24:34 GMT -5
Rice cakes? Those things that tasted like styrofoam. REAL big back when I was a kid. >_>
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