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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 8, 2009 9:46:12 GMT -5
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Post by rosa on Jul 8, 2009 11:43:14 GMT -5
What a great post, Erika! Reading the story in your intro is one thing, but the way you put it together with pictures really makes the point sink home.
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Post by stampinmama on Jul 8, 2009 12:01:39 GMT -5
Thanks, Rosa.
Yah, the pic with the horrid jumper and head covering make it more real, I think.
The thing is, that 1994 pic of me makes me look about 3 times the size I was. I weighed about 120 pounds there, but we weren't allowed to wear clothing that showed off any curves whatsoever.
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kay
Junior Member
A fool hath no dialogue within himself, the first thought carrieth him without the reply of a second
Posts: 75
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Post by kay on Jul 8, 2009 12:51:51 GMT -5
Great post Erika/stampinmama. My heart goes out to you, your family, and your past. My father gave his blessing but put down very specific rules. No hand holding, no touching, no hugging, no kissing, no words of affection, no physical contact WHATSOEVER, no "I love yous" (as that was reserved for engagement). Everything was to go through the approval of my father. We were allowed one letter a week from each other (we lived 450 miles apart) and many of those earlier letters were read by my father, whether coming in or going out. We didn't have email back then. We were allowed two phone calls a week, 30 min. each. At the beginning, my father would sit in on the phone calls. He even kept a timer handy and when the 30 min. were up, the phone call was deemed OVER. No more talking. Hang it up. This part in particular really touched me. I just can't wrap my head around having a 'relationship' with all these limitations. No "I love yous"? I can't understand the concept of planning a future with someone, let alone becoming engaged with someone, that never expressed love for me. Love, relationships, and emotions shouldn't be controlled like that.
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Post by stampinmama on Jul 8, 2009 13:02:19 GMT -5
This part in particular really touched me. I just can't wrap my head around having a 'relationship' with all these limitations. No "I love yous"? I can't understand the concept of planning a future with someone, let alone becoming engaged with someone, that never expressed love for me. Love, relationships, and emotions shouldn't be controlled like that. Kay - Thank you. The limitations were so suffocating. Especially because my family was so incredibly in tune with affections. My parents were always very affectionate with us. It wasn't like we were starved for affection growing up. In fact, some people would have probably felt smothered living in the family that I grew up in. We've always been huggy people, I still give my mom a kiss on the top of her head when she's sitting at my dining room table. I still think nothing of coming up to my father and giving him a great big hug and telling him I love him out of the blue. It's just the way we always were. And never in any sexual sort of way. So, to have those sorts of limitations put on my relationship with David was like tying my hands behind me. It got to the point that David and I would barely hold hands in the car when no one could see, or we'd sit with our arms crossed on the couch so that we could hide our fingers touching. I remember going to the 4th of July fireworks with my family and his family in 1996. All of us kids were lying on big blankets on the ground. We all had our arms behind our heads so that we could prop up our heads. David's elbows were touching mine and my father saw it and insisted on laying behind us and putting his hands between David's elbows and mine because he was convinced it would arouse sexual desires between the two of us. Frickin' ridiculous! It was embarrassing. I was 19 and David was 21. My father's motto was, "You don't marry the one you love, you love the one you marry." Interestingly enough, he got to choose the one he married and he married her because he loved her. My sister and I were not allowed that same freedom. I remember questioning him as to why I couldn't do both....marry the one I loved and love the one I married. That was considered selfish to him. What was good for the goose wasn't good for the gander. David and I "rebelled" in secret and told each other we loved each other. We just couldn't bear not to express those feelings and emotions to each other.
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Post by castor on Jul 8, 2009 13:07:10 GMT -5
I agree with Rosa, this is a great post. And yes the pictures make it more real. the picture from 1994 is so horrible, I'm sorry but in my opinion those really are the ugliest clothes ever. Clothes like that aren't flattering on anyone, but I guess that's the point.
You mention being old enough, at twenty, to make your own decisions. And I agree. You were old enough, all twenty-year-olds are. You made a good decision when you chose to marry your husband. But even if you had made a mistake that wouldn't have "proven" you weren't old enough (or fully human enough) to make your own decisions. I'm twenty-one, I make a lot of mistakes, I expect to keep making mistakes my entire life. But I'm old enough to make my OWN mistakes. I don't need my parents to make mistakes for me. And no twenty, or twenty-one-year-old does.
You were a very strong teenager and young adult. You kept your own opinions and your sense of self-worth in an environment that did everything it could to make those things disappear. And you were lucky too, you found love, real love while still in that lifestyle. (And yes, love takes work, and it has to do with more things than luck. But it takes work from both partners, and that's why I think you were lucky. Lucky to find a man who really loved you, and really wanted to work for that love, while you were still in this fundamentalist religious environment. How come he didn't get "corrupted"? he grew up very much like you did)
And yes, not being able to express your love. Yes, that's so terrible.
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Post by stampinmama on Jul 8, 2009 14:09:55 GMT -5
Castor -
I totally agree on the ugliness of that outfit. I really didn't have much of a choice, though. I did have some flashier outfits, but for the most part, if it didn't fall within my parents' requirements for our clothing, I wasn't allowed to wear it. And you're absolutely right....they weren't supposed to be flattering. God forbid that a woman actually LOOK beautiful.
And I also agree with you about being old enough to make mistakes. Even looking back, my parents were old enough to make good decisions, but they also made plenty of mistakes and were old enough to do so. The problem with the patriarchal lifestyle is that, while the parents drill into the minds of their children what good and right decisions are, they never give them the chances or the trust that they can make those decisions....and they're even more afraid of their children making mistakes. Most of these parents feel like they're responsible for the choices of their minor children AND their adult children. They take it one step further and a fearful of God punishing them for the mistakes their adult children make. They are scared of looking like an awful parent. Or of looking like a failure.
But even if I had made a mistake, that would have been mine and mine alone. Not in their eyes. Since I didn't have a right to make those big decisions, they felt it reflected on them.
Sure, it's great to make good decisions, but we also learn from our mistakes, too.
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Post by madame on Jul 8, 2009 14:53:35 GMT -5
Erika, Great post! I agree that you were a very mature 20 yr old. At that age, I doubt I would have done what you did.
I didn't grow up in such an extreme patriarchal home, but our home was patriarchal nonetheless. My father had the last word, and he made us feel very bad for choices we made that he didn't agree with. Like when I left the family house-church and joined a more mainstream evangelical one. I had left the "true church" and gone to the "light christians" who don't take Christianity seriously.
You've brought up a few very interesting points about patriarchy: - FEAR. - the need to have a perfect, peaceful home - control.
I think patriarchy appeals to people who want the fairytale of a perfect marriage, a happy, harmonious home, and perfectly behaved children that never embarass them. The wives will often be the ones who buy into it first! But just look at their forums and blogs, 75% of the content is about how you should keep that peace, artificially. They talk about how their submission has finally brought peace, but all they've done is bottle in their feelings, opinions, instincts... They're switching their brain off. Which brings me to another point why I think it sells so well.
Some men are not into discussing and reaching a consensus. They want someone to have the last word, and if that can be them, then better! They get told that God has given them the last word, and the responsibility to have it, and they are relieved: they don't have to deal with the mess of real life and relationships. I don't think it's so much selfishness as much as it is a desire to have order and get on with life efficiently. If someone challenges them, they would more easily let that other person take over than try and find a middle ground. It's an issue of control too.
Control over one's children is the way to ensure they won't embarass us and make us look like bad parents. I remember how my mother used to reproach us for giving them a bad reputation. I wonder how many times we got smacked out of anger, because what we had done made them look less than perfect.
Add fear of upsetting God or not reaching the mark or something, and you keep everyone toeing the line.
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Post by AustinAvery on Jul 8, 2009 16:04:10 GMT -5
And that is the "condensed" version. Wow. I've been prodding Vyckie for some time (unfairly I know because she has plenty on her plate) to come out with a book about her experiences. Perhaps a compilation of "escape" stories would be in order. Your story is an interesting contrast from her stark separation from all that was before because in your story I see a sort of slow decent by your entire family into a patriarchal dungeon--a dungeon of your parents' own making, and one that even they now seem to be climbing out of, albeit some time after your flight away. If you do write more, I, for one, would be interested in reading more about the inner turmoil and rebellion that you allude to in the "Reader's Digest" version. The growth of the feminist within--reflected, for example, by your thought process in the following passage--makes compelling reading: But you did question it, didn't you? And when you put it out of your mind, given God's command, did it stay out? Or did it seep back into your consciousness from time to time. That I find very interesting and I wonder if it is a common thread among "escapees."
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jennie
Junior Member
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Post by jennie on Jul 8, 2009 17:09:49 GMT -5
I loved hearing your story, Stampinmamma! Many of your themes sound so familiar to my days in a legalistic homeschool setting: it's all about appearances, someone wanting you to follow their will but putting it under the guise of "God's will", people feeling like their flavor of legalism is better than other's. I could go on and on.
When you said that your parents were "influenced by man and movements that are wrapped up in a shiny package of perfect families and godly living." Yep, been there, done that. As soon as you get up close enough to the shiny package, though, you find out that it's a very thin veneer, and what's inside the package is a big load of you know what.
I'm so glad I woke up before my two children got into their teenage years. My children were just as strong willed as you were, and if I had not woken up, I would probably be in this story in the place where your mom was when you left home.
I'm so glad your parents have left legalism, and you have a good relationship now. It sounds like your escape helped them wake up. Do you think that was the case?
Thanks for sharing your story with all of us.
Jennie
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Post by stampinmama on Jul 8, 2009 17:38:37 GMT -5
You were a very strong teenager and young adult. You kept your own opinions and your sense of self-worth in an environment that did everything it could to make those things disappear. And you were lucky too, you found love, real love while still in that lifestyle. (And yes, love takes work, and it has to do with more things than luck. But it takes work from both partners, and that's why I think you were lucky. Lucky to find a man who really loved you, and really wanted to work for that love, while you were still in this fundamentalist religious environment. How come he didn't get "corrupted"? he grew up very much like you did) Castor- I'm not really sure how the two of us turned out normal. His upbringing was different than mine, but just as bizarre. He's had a lot of issues to work through, as well. He's got a pretty powerful story of leaving that crazy, jacked-up "church." We actually left a little over a year after we got married. I only went because he asked me to. He never forced me to, but I went because I loved him....and would then pick apart every fool thing they said during the sermon (which sometimes lasted a good 2 or 3 hours). His mother really did a number on him and his brothers. Their father is a spineless nimrod who let her rule the roost (matriarchy on speed) and that just resulted in the boys learning to coddle her and wait on her hand and foot. She'd throw temper tantrums to get what she wanted....still does, actually. One of the good things that came out of that is that he learned to treat women good. Surprising that he didn't grow up hating women, the way his mother treated them.
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Post by tapati on Jul 8, 2009 18:51:03 GMT -5
What a wonderful story! I look forward to reading your additional guest posts and learning more of your story. It's sad that parents can so control their children and teenagers' lives in such painful ways. I know in the Hare Krishna movement we were all told to send our young children off to "gurukula," an institutional school. Sadly many were abused in those schools by the young people put in charge of them, many of whom had zero teaching experience and little interest in being saddled with the job. They were simply assigned to do it and had no choice. We didn't imagine that other devotees of Krishna would do such things to children, being fairly young and naive. Fortunately I left before my kids were that age. But again, what horrible prices children pay for their parents' belief-systems. The former gurukula students are still paying in trying to reclaim their education, which was poor, and recover from the abuse. Some have committed suicide. I'm so sorry that your parents got caught up in this evil guy's preaching just when you were entering the best part of your teen years. Thank you for sharing your story!
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Hillary
Full Member
"Quivering Daughters ~ Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy" Now Available!
Posts: 129
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Post by Hillary on Jul 8, 2009 18:56:22 GMT -5
Erika...amazing. Hugs to you!!!!!
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Post by rosa on Jul 8, 2009 19:53:24 GMT -5
Control over one's children is the way to ensure they won't embarass us and make us look like bad parents.
That's an interesting statement, Madame - because at the same time they set up that control, these parents make it so basically anything a child does (wear regular clothes, talk loudly, run, not do everything you say, express themselves, get angry, be unhappy) are embarrassing - so there's no real gain for the parent, just more things to worry about and more contests of will with the kids.
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Post by passionfruit on Jul 8, 2009 20:11:22 GMT -5
Wow, that's an amazing story. Glad you found your way out of it. ;D
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Post by arietty on Jul 8, 2009 21:25:30 GMT -5
Thanks for your story Erika It's interesting how often people in this movement end up marrying young. You were lucky in your choice of husband but a lot of folks just grab the first one that seems reasonably okay because that is their only route to being an adult. Outside of this movement you would normally spend a few years in a relationship before marrying with the choice to break up if it didn't work out. The whole courtship thing, ending it is seen on par with divorce so young people are just compelled to marry once they start that process. Even in my mainstream church they all get married several years earlier than the norm. 19, 20.. and they're married.
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Post by stampinmama on Jul 8, 2009 21:35:35 GMT -5
When you said that your parents were "influenced by man and movements that are wrapped up in a shiny package of perfect families and godly living." Yep, been there, done that. As soon as you get up close enough to the shiny package, though, you find out that it's a very thin veneer, and what's inside the package is a big load of you know what. I'm so glad your parents have left legalism, and you have a good relationship now. It sounds like your escape helped them wake up. Do you think that was the case? Jennie Jennie- You're so right about the thin veneer. Interestingly, that head honcho at the church ended up being put under church discipline and refused it, thinking that he was above it. His older daughter married the man of his choosing. He found the guy on a website specifically for fathers looking for matches for their daughters. The guy handed him $20K as "good faith" money and the rest was on a handshake. Like selling a piece of livestock. SICK. His youngest of the three daughters (no sons...thank God....I can't imagine another version of him running around and trying to rule the world) eloped with a JW while he was away on a conference about patriarchy. He refused to acknowledge his daughter's marriage and shunned her from the family until her husband finally converted and now they're living in the same town and going to this guy's new church. His middle daughter met a guy online from Germany and packed her bags and high tailed it out of there and never looked back. She was the smart one. Of course, he's STILL teaching his seminars on how to raise a godly family, but his track record shows that his methods DON'T work. I have run out of fingers and toes while counting how many young people in that church have ruined lives. He left a wake of destruction when he left, yet he's blinded to it. I really do believe that by my sister and I leaving, that we helped them to wake up to what was going on. They were scared out of their mind of losing my brothers when that happened, and wouldn't allow us to talk to them for almost a year. Later on, they realized that they had pushed too hard and saw what it did to their family. I dare say that if my sister and I hadn't left, they'd still be in those chains.
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Post by arietty on Jul 8, 2009 21:36:49 GMT -5
Control over one's children is the way to ensure they won't embarass us and make us look like bad parents.That's an interesting statement, Madame - because at the same time they set up that control, these parents make it so basically anything a child does (wear regular clothes, talk loudly, run, not do everything you say, express themselves, get angry, be unhappy) are embarrassing - so there's no real gain for the parent, just more things to worry about and more contests of will with the kids. That pretty much describes my husband's childhood. Their mother's list of things that embarrassed her is VERY long.. and pretty much anything the kids did outside of existing in silence meant her disapproval and religious lectures, because in her mind it made her look bad. She had many very odd things that were on her list of rules, where she got them I have no idea.. certainly not from her mainstream evangelical culture. She raised three children to never express any opinion or preference for anything.. even today when they are with her they just sit and wait, in a state of eternal deferring, for her to make even the simplest decisions such as whether to put coffee on. A few times I have witnessed the more lively one express a preference first, without waiting the customary (and very long) deferment time for the mother to express her will.. and this is promptly rebuked. The one with the temerity to have a preference is rebuked for selfishness and not taking into consideration that others might feel differently. This is for the SIMPLEST day to day things. Everything is expressed in religious guilting terms. When I was first with my husband I would get frustrated at how he would immediately back down and how he would simply not be able to tell me what preferences he had about anything. Now I only see him like that on the (thankfully very rare) visits he has with his mom.
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Post by stampinmama on Jul 8, 2009 21:44:30 GMT -5
in your story I see a sort of slow decent by your entire family into a patriarchal dungeon--a dungeon of your parents' own making, and one that even they now seem to be climbing out of, albeit some time after your flight away. If you do write more, I, for one, would be interested in reading more about the inner turmoil and rebellion that you allude to in the "Reader's Digest" version. The growth of the feminist within-- But you did question it, didn't you? And when you put it out of your mind, given God's command, did it stay out? Or did it seep back into your consciousness from time to time. That I find very interesting and I wonder if it is a common thread among "escapees." austinavery - My parents have pretty much climbed out of the hole for good. My parents stay far away from it all now. They still have a lot that they feel guilty for, but there's only so many times you can apologize without it affecting how you feel about yourself in a negative way. They choose to move on and that's all I can ask of them. They've asked for forgiveness and I've given it to them. It's time to move on with our relationship. I will definitely be writing more about my feministic growth in future posts. Along with the inner turmoil. As I was writing this article, I started a list of all the off-shoots that I could write about. It was crazy how many things I was putting on that list. Yes, I did question it. I was constantly questioning. Sometimes it was verbal and there were consequenses to questioning it. Most times, it was silent, simply out of survival instinct. But I was always questioning. It never stayed out of my mind. It was always there. It was something I thought about constantly.
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Post by stampinmama on Jul 8, 2009 21:53:46 GMT -5
Thanks for your story Erika It's interesting how often people in this movement end up marrying young. You were lucky in your choice of husband but a lot of folks just grab the first one that seems reasonably okay because that is their only route to being an adult. Outside of this movement you would normally spend a few years in a relationship before marrying with the choice to break up if it didn't work out. The whole courtship thing, ending it is seen on par with divorce so young people are just compelled to marry once they start that process. Even in my mainstream church they all get married several years earlier than the norm. 19, 20.. and they're married. arietty- Ya know, years ago I saw girls getting married young in this movement. I don't really see that much any more. The norm is girls sitting around, waiting for someone to come along, but not being able to pursue anyone because that wouldn't be the right course of action for them. They sit there, in their late 20s and early 30s, still at home, working for their parents, taking care of their younger siblings, dreaming of some day having their own family and wondering if they're going to be too old to even conceive by the time someone comes to their father to ask about them. I have SO many friends that are sitting around waiting just like this. They're hitting close to 30, content to stay where they are, because that's the only way to do it right, while their dreams of starting a family at 18 years old had died 12 years earlier. The reason for this, I believe (and this is something Vyckie wants me to touch on as a catch-22 article later on), is that the young men are all getting a set of balls and leaving, while the girls have been so beaten down with no higher education, no job, no license, etc. and are stuck at home. I definitely picked a good one. But....I was "rebellious" enough earlier on to experiment and knew what I was looking for. My sister and BIL, on the other hand, didn't last and I think it's partially because they were just together so they wouldn't be left out of the "courtship loop" and looked at the whole thing as a binding commitment and went for the first relationship they'd ever had.
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Post by arietty on Jul 8, 2009 22:04:01 GMT -5
That is interesting Erika, and very sad. Think how hard it would be to walk out and start from scratch after living at home with no real job for years and years.. how intimidating for some.
My MIL believed firmly that a woman must NEVER express that she likes a man in any way, she must wait for him to come to her. She impressed this on her meekest child who had a man she liked who was just a friend. She waited 8 years, always deferring to her mother telling her that godly women don't pursue men.. finally she rebelled and wrote him a letter asking if he had any romantic feelings for her. He replied: "no". Now personally I think the fellow is probably gay and deeply in a religious closet. The mother makes excuses for this and would be happy for her daughter to STILL be waiting on this man ("he is very busy.." wtf?!) It's completely nuts and my SIL is staring down the barrel of never having kids, she's in her 30's now and never had a relationship.
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Post by stampinmama on Jul 8, 2009 22:20:03 GMT -5
That is interesting Erika, and very sad. Think how hard it would be to walk out and start from scratch after living at home with no real job for years and years.. how intimidating for some. My MIL believed firmly that a woman must NEVER express that she likes a man in any way, she must wait for him to come to her. She impressed this on her meekest child who had a man she liked who was just a friend. She waited 8 years, always deferring to her mother telling her that godly women don't pursue men.. finally she rebelled and wrote him a letter asking if he had any romantic feelings for her. He replied: "no". Now personally I think the fellow is probably gay and deeply in a religious closet. The mother makes excuses for this and would be happy for her daughter to STILL be waiting on this man ("he is very busy.." wtf?!) It's completely nuts and my SIL is staring down the barrel of never having kids, she's in her 30's now and never had a relationship. I just recently spent a weekend in May with a few girls for a mutual friend's wedding. One of the girls is 29 and still living at home and works for her parents, getting paid (not sure how much) for child care (she's the oldest of 10) and housework. I asked her if she'd ever thought of moving out and getting another job. She said, "This IS my job. Why would I want to move out? Besides, I'd have to pay rent and commute here if I moved out." There wasn't any thought of getting another job and being on her own. Her parents had finally built a new house and had built a room on just for her.....to make it convenient to have her stay. That is SO sad about your SIL. Is there any way that you could convince her to get a life and get out?
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Post by philosophia on Jul 8, 2009 22:37:46 GMT -5
Erika,
I enjoyed your story so much. The daughter's point of view is different from the mother's. My daughters were in the movement from the time the oldest was 6, and we were dressing horridly until just a few years ago. It started out with quaint prairie dresses, and descended from there....
Looking at photos of a family trip to San Diego and Sequoia Park, there were some shots of our girls in their homemade denim culottes. (We were the liberal type, my girls wore sacky skirts with hidden crotches) My oldest, now in blue jeans exclaimed "Oh Gosh, WHAT were we THINKING!" And yes, my kids had matching jumpers with that cow, farm scene patch on the bib.
There are so many serious things that I would love to comment on in your post, but it hurts to know that I bear a great deal of responsibility for warping my daughter's thinking. My oldest desires to be married, but thinks that the solution to that is wait for Dad to find someone for her. That scares the fire out of me! I can only hope that my emancipation does something to her thinking.
Thank you so much for sharing.
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Post by kisekileia on Jul 8, 2009 23:45:31 GMT -5
It's interesting that the women who go so far as to believe that their fathers must find them a husband end up not marrying. I think some of the not quite so extreme ones have trouble finding husbands as well, because their sexuality is so repressed. But in my parents' church (complementarian/soft patriarchal, but actually does preach that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church, so it's not good but not as bad as QF), a lot of people seem to marry young and the norm is 4-5 kids. A lot of my online friends from evangelical backgrounds have married young as well, although several have also had kids out of wedlock (using no birth control or only condoms, I think). People even in mainstream evangelical culture are raised to value marriage and family very highly and see them as the normal course of action once one reaches adulthood, and to not have sex before marriage (or, at least, to think they shouldn't have sex before marriage even if they actually end up doing it). I think those people tend to marry young.
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Post by kisekileia on Jul 8, 2009 23:47:30 GMT -5
And Erika, I really appreciated your story as well. It's interesting to see what it's like to be raised in the most radical parts of patriarchy--I really only had brushes with extremist Christianity, and generally not as extremist as QF, but I realize now that even mainstream evangelicalism has ideas about sexuality that are seriously problematic and frequently spiritually abusive.
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