debd
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Posts: 4
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Post by debd on Oct 28, 2009 1:13:36 GMT -5
It is truly a shame that this sin of "patriarchy" -- and it IS sinful and selfish -- has damaged so very many families for so many years. The apostle Paul never intended for men to get the "I'm the ruler" thinking -- on the contrary -- he told men FIVE times to agape-love their wives --- as well as to lay down his life for her, cherish and honor her, live with understanding with her, etc. as well as to "mutually submit" (Eph 5:21) Men were told more than once in Malachi "do NOT deal treacherously with the wife of your youth" and then pastors/leaders only seem to focus on the second part "for the Lord hates divorce" so as to further control women out of guilt. Please do not turn away from Jesus Christ, who lovingly came and gave His life to pay for your sin, JUST BECAUSE we have selfish men who decided years ago to misinterpret the scriptures to their liking. The New Testament church knew exactly what Paul was talking about. They understood Jesus fully when He said to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Back then, women always had to be under the dominion of men because they were still under the curse, however JESUS REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE! It is mankind that wants to keep women under the curse... even if they "lovingly?" say that the husband is to be the "servant-leader" -- that is just code for "husband rules" www.MinistrytoMarriage.com teaches the proper principles of what God's Word says. The Man of Her Dreams / The Woman of His and Livin' It and Lovin' It are wonderfully written books by Joel and Kathy Davisson -- he was previously a patriarchy-type of pastor, but NO MORE -- and their marriage has been transformed. Were it not for this ministry I would be separated or divorced. re: Children --- my having believed the lies of Planned Parenthood and then repenting of it, I am so very glad to have welcomed my children (six of them plus two miscarried early into heaven) and at least had a husband who did not make me deliver anywhere but where I wanted to deliver. God says children are: gifts, rewards, exaltation, blessing, fruit, arrows, etc and I am not going to argue with Him about that. He is the want who wants me to trust Him in every area of my life. Don't ever feel bad about having children, please. He desires us to fill the earth with godly offspring. Christians, especially, should be having children instead of getting sterilized or taking harmful or abortifacient drugs. When we are excepting with joy of the children, we are also letting our other children know that we love them, too. This does NOT have to be a part of patriarchy, but rather a surrendering to the Lord for He knows best. Blessings, DebD
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Post by jemand on Oct 28, 2009 11:21:54 GMT -5
Please do not come here to preach to us. We have our own thoughts, beliefs and actions and "keep searching.... until you think like me" is most assuredly NOT welcome.
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debd
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Post by debd on Oct 28, 2009 11:45:48 GMT -5
say what?
I am not allowed to post that patriarchy is sinful? or where to go to find the truth about what scriptures really meant?
or about my experiences with deception of Planned Parenthood? or about what the scriptures say about children?
or request that others don't turn away from Jesus just because men have misinterpreted the scriptures and turned them into dominion over women?
Am very confused at your rant against me.
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Post by jemand on Oct 28, 2009 11:55:33 GMT -5
note that there are a lot of us have been burned, burned BADLY by preaching at us. And when you say "don't turn away *just* because of the people" you remind all of us of those who are belittling or second guessing our decisions, psychoanalyzing us and telling us our decisions are based on something that they don't believe to be solid-- implying that it IS why we left.
It reminds us of the people who not only say just what you did, but also are implying THAT's why we left. That it WAS just people, that we had no problem with the theology.
Your post pricked, the places apologists and evangelists and ALL the people you rail against have rubbed raw. And yet you're coming and telling ME this, telling me they are wrong, telling me I should second guess my reasoning. Why don't you go find someone ELSE? All those other evangelists and apologists and take it up with THEM before they rub someone else raw? And then that you totally ignore that and come at me in the same place? I don't want to be preached at. Pretty sure other people here don't either.
I left because of the beliefs, the theology. The actions of people just influenced my beliefs with regard to how dangerous and destructive religion is, not that it's false. That I decided before.
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Post by jemand on Oct 28, 2009 12:02:20 GMT -5
it's just... I think that your points could have gone towards the "faq" pages but most certainly NOT be directed directly towards one woman's story, or generally to the atheist readers here. You shouldn't have posted it here. Your points belonged elsewhere. Pointed at the people who are actually DOING the harm in the first place, not us who've been hurt and left, or written to those who are trying to escape patriarchy and yet still believe in god. Not in this thread, in this subforum.
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debd
New Member
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Post by debd on Oct 28, 2009 12:17:40 GMT -5
I, too, have been hurt by "patriarchy" --- especially in the SBC church --
"Woman, are you willing to submit to my authority?" was shoved on me by assoc pastors and also implied in my marriage.
Patriarchy is sinful as I stated FIRST sentence... and it hurts women, children, the men (because they end up not ever growing up), the family, the church and society as a whole
I am now free from "patriarchy" because of finding out that man misinterpreted scripture, realizing that I no longer have to feel guilty about not following the patriarchy lies...
Hoping that others will not turn against Christ because of the distortions of man's teachings is not wrong, but apparently you are quite offended by it. Offending was never the intent... only to encourage.
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Post by Sierra on Oct 28, 2009 15:28:17 GMT -5
or about my experiences with deception of Planned Parenthood? or about what the scriptures say about children? Deb, I appreciate that you are offering a perspective of a Christian woman who's found peace within Christianity minus the patriarchy. I think we need such voices around here, especially to remind women who are so afraid of rejecting patriarchy that they don't have to renounce their entire set of beliefs in order to do so. I've hesitated to touch this because I don't want to appear to "run you out of town." I think you should stay. Your perspective is valuable in the fight against patriarchal religion. However, when you mentioned the "lies" of Planned Parenthood, I didn't hear personal experience. I heard more Christian Right propaganda about "killing babies." Planned Parenthood is an organisation that provides medical services and medication to low-income women in the US. It's not a polemic organisation dedicated to making women abort their pregnancies - unlike organisations like Operation Rescue, which are dedicated to advancing a certain (militant) worldview. The pill is generally not regarded as an abortifacient within the scientific community, as the definition of pregnancy is an egg implanted in the uterus and the pill does not dislodge an already implanted egg. Even if it were an abortifacient, there are those among us (myself included) who just wouldn't care. Abortion is not a moral evil to me. And the reasons for this bring me to my second point. I never in my life wanted to have children. What the Scriptures say, or at least what people with the Scriptures in hand always say to me, is that a woman must have children, that her only God-ordained role is housewife-mother. I could choose to live my life celibate - was once convinced that I would, in fact, since sex and the pill were evil - to avoid having children. But I've always known that life will throw the unexpected in your face even if you spend years guarding against it. So I've considered the possibility that I might end up pregnant somehow. And for most of my life, the only viable outcomes for me were abortion or suicide, because there was no way in hell I was going to be a mother. I've heard it all before about how I'd love my children once I had them, or being pregnant would pump me full of hormones to make me love the baby and want it... sorry, but no. I know myself better than that, and I'm sick and tired of other people thinking they can convince me of something I've been thinking through for at least fifteen years now. None of those points are terribly new anymore and none of them apply to me. (Here's a hint: when you've got an eating disorder, you don't want to dramatically reconfigure your body and share it with another living thing - there is quite possibly nothing more horrifying to an ED sufferer. And since recovery is a long, halting process that collapses easily and leaves you at the beginning, there's no way to prescribe a "get over it and then get pregnant" timeline. Even if it were somehow acceptable to tell a woman she needs to get pregnant! ) So I've chosen not to care what the Scriptures say about children, because I think the Scriptures were written in a time and place where the only option for women was to have them: a time and place where I'd have been stoned to death before my 15th birthday. Now I've gone to Planned Parenthood to refill my BC a few times - I've spoken to their staff, and found them to be professional, kind, and disinterested in pushing me toward any particular ideology. I know that their doctors perform abortions on young women who recover from the surgery and turn around to spit on their shoes and call them babykillers. Yet they go on serving women, helping them deal with unexpected situations that could ruin their lives. At least one (George Tiller) has died for providing these services - in Tiller's case, services that saved women's lives and prevented them from feeling the horror of giving birth to a baby that had no brain or having to carry a dead fetus to term. As for the pill itself, it saved me from agonising pain, mood swings and severe cystic acne. Harmful, eh? I also didn't see anything in your post to contradict the "women should submit to their husbands" doctrine - only that husbands should be nicer about their domination. Wouldn't we all like kind masters? No, actually. I've heard lots of patriarchists attempt to make their message more palatable for women by emphasising husbands' duties while still insisting on wifely submission. Is this something you believe in? Because I suspect I am not the only one keeping a wary eye out for this idea to creep back in. As jemand said, your post did come across as pretty preachy - and maybe that could be solved by adding some personal examples to all the statements you were making. I'm here to point out that many of us are no longer Christian and are not interested in hearing repeated appeals to rethink our decision. Believe us, we have - over and over and freaking over again - we haven't had the choice not to, but at least we keep coming to the same conclusion. I'm not here to attack, but I am here to defend (Planned Parenthood against libel, for one thing). Be aware, as you post here, that many of us are dead tired of hearing about the "real meaning" of Christianity as we've identified so many common threads in these meanings that they've all become cliche.
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Post by coleslaw on Oct 28, 2009 15:31:18 GMT -5
Hi, debd. Welcome to our rather outspoken group.
There's a difference between saying, "This is my experience with the patriarchy, but now I have found a Christian movement that does not teach the same things and my marriage is much better", and saying "This is my experience with the patriarchy, and this is what you should think." Your post came across as using your experiences with patriarchy to tell other people what they should believe, and nobody here likes that. If you want to tell about your own experiences and how they shaped what you now believe, that's different. I think it's possible that you are so accustomed to hearing other people preach and to preaching that you don't realize when you are falling into that pattern, but it is apparent to others.
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Post by Sierra on Oct 28, 2009 15:32:18 GMT -5
I, too, have been hurt by "patriarchy" --- especially in the SBC church -- "Woman, are you willing to submit to my authority?" was shoved on me by assoc pastors and also implied in my marriage. ... I am now free from "patriarchy" because of finding out that man misinterpreted scripture, realizing that I no longer have to feel guilty about not following the patriarchy lies... Hoping that others will not turn against Christ because of the distortions of man's teachings is not wrong, but apparently you are quite offended by it. Offending was never the intent... only to encourage. I think I do hear your intent here. Of course you don't want people to turn away from Christianity because you find solace in it. This post felt more real because you mentioned your own experiences - I am truly sorry that abusive individuals attempted to control you as they did many of us, too. I am not against hearing a Christian voice here, and I don't think jemand is either, but we both want you to please be careful of what could be considered "triggering" language - words that remind us of the bad places we've all been to.
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Post by kisekileia on Oct 28, 2009 20:52:08 GMT -5
Planned Parenthood is not anything close to how the Christian right stereotypes it. I dated a devout Catholic for two years, and I was looking into natural family planning in case he and I got married. What was the website with the best information--which was actually rather encouraging? Planned Parenthood's.
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Post by xara on Oct 28, 2009 21:46:56 GMT -5
I agree with Sierra and kisekileia about Planned Parenthood.
For many women PP provides the ONLY healthcare they can afford. It screens for STDs, breast cancer, cervical cancer, and many other health issues that women and men face.
I have used Planned Parenthood's services in the past and I also found them to be nothing less than professional and caring. They helped me to get the care I needed at the time because I had no health insurance. And I was there to get the pill because like Sierra, I have NO desire to have children.
But it turns out that I have a health condition that REQUIRES me to be on hormone replacement to live and I could not sustain a pregnancy even if I wanted to. The pill is no longer strong enough for me.
Planned Parenthood does provide birth control, and hormone replacement, and many other services, including at some locations abortion, and they do it in a way that lets the patient decide what is best for her with guidance from the physicians and nurses based on the patient's specific circumstances. Just like any doctor. They are just more affordable for those who do not have insurance.
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em
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Posts: 176
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Post by em on Oct 28, 2009 21:50:53 GMT -5
Oh, Sierra. I couldn't agree with you more on the not having babies thing. I'm still young, so I guess it's possible that someday I will change my mind (but I think that's next to impossible since the odds of me getting my shit together enough to feel I could reasonably be able to be in charge of another person's life are not very likely). But God. My little sister is pregnant now and it's just soooooo creepy thinking about it. Being pregnant, having my body hijacked for 9 months, giving birth (that's what scares me the most. God, I'm barely 5ft and 95 pounds, how on earth could I push a baby out? And huge babies (like 10 pounds and bigger) run pretty heavily on both sides of the family), raising a kid ... makes me want to run screaming.
Always nice to find another like minded baby-phobe. Lol. ;D
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