em
Full Member
Posts: 176
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Post by em on Oct 5, 2009 17:08:02 GMT -5
Funny how often the system fails victims by refusing to really listen ... and then one time it's all a lie, they refuse to listen to that. Ugh.
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Post by kisekileia on Oct 5, 2009 22:22:39 GMT -5
And in most situations like that the system would have been right, because people who abuse often display a pleasant exterior. But you had heard straight from the girls at the time of the allegations that they were lying, hadn't you?
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Post by stampinmama on Oct 6, 2009 6:44:47 GMT -5
And in most situations like that the system would have been right, because people who abuse often display a pleasant exterior. But you had heard straight from the girls at the time of the allegations that they were lying, hadn't you? Yes, they were quite proud of themselves for finding a way out, though it was very much the wrong way.
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Post by rosa on Oct 6, 2009 15:40:39 GMT -5
It really does seem like a formal version of the informal system we already have, where older teens can usually just say "I'm going to go live with grandma/my other parent/Aunt Jane" would help a lot of people - the reason for leaving could be much less than the reasons needed for legally terminating parental rights over younger kids, and teens who are unwilling to admit to physical or sexual abuse, or kids who just can't articulate what emotional abuse is, would be able to use it without the parents suffering the negative consequences of being labeled bad parents. Especially because people are so different, there are family situations that can be fine for one kid and terrible for another. Though I would say that it's inherently abusive to not allow a teen to leave a situation that makes them miserable.
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Post by kisekileia on Oct 7, 2009 0:35:22 GMT -5
I agree with you, Rosa.
Stampinmama--there's no way that your having heard straight from the girls that they were lying at the time of the lies would affect their father's legal status if you went to the court?
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Post by stampinmama on Oct 7, 2009 6:57:48 GMT -5
I agree with you, Rosa. Stampinmama--there's no way that your having heard straight from the girls that they were lying at the time of the lies would affect their father's legal status if you went to the court? At the time that they came up with their story, they were telling people they had lied about it, but they were denying the lie to the authorities, so it was their word against other people's. Also, they were telling their friends about the lie. They were telling adults the false story, so the system believed the adults, and not the peers.
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Post by kisekileia on Oct 7, 2009 9:36:06 GMT -5
Ohhh, got it.
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Post by sargassosea on Oct 7, 2009 10:14:14 GMT -5
Erika - I am sooo late to the game! I just finally had a minute to read your post this morning (and not even the whole thing because my 'puter froze... ) and I haven't as yet read through this thread but I just needed to ask: Power Forward???
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Post by tapati on Oct 7, 2009 13:50:37 GMT -5
It really does seem like a formal version of the informal system we already have, where older teens can usually just say "I'm going to go live with grandma/my other parent/Aunt Jane" would help a lot of people - the reason for leaving could be much less than the reasons needed for legally terminating parental rights over younger kids, and teens who are unwilling to admit to physical or sexual abuse, or kids who just can't articulate what emotional abuse is, would be able to use it without the parents suffering the negative consequences of being labeled bad parents. Especially because people are so different, there are family situations that can be fine for one kid and terrible for another. Though I would say that it's inherently abusive to not allow a teen to leave a situation that makes them miserable. I agree, especially given the high rate of teen suicides vs other age groups. Only the elderly have similarly high suicide rates. It would also be a good idea for social workers or parent coaching people to work with the family to see if those issues can be resolved. Maybe, for example, such a person could have come into Erika's home and seen that the other children were content but that she really needed the social outlet and mandated that she go to public school or at least the activities she enjoyed there. If the parents were not willing, then she could have been offered the opportunity to move in with a relative, be emancipated, or matched with a good foster family (if one existed--there needs to be more quality foster care).
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Post by jemand on Oct 7, 2009 14:37:39 GMT -5
you would though have to worry about other adults coercing or luring a teen into being dissatisfied with an actually good home situation. I'm not sure what you could do about that.
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Post by tapati on Oct 7, 2009 18:39:44 GMT -5
you would though have to worry about other adults coercing or luring a teen into being dissatisfied with an actually good home situation. I'm not sure what you could do about that. That's why it's good if a kid has their own advocate/lawyer and then someone oversees in mediation, then court if that fails, the final outcome. There should be good checks and balances and good training. One of the main reasons we don't have a good system is that as a society we aren't willing to pay for all it would take. Overworked CPS people have high turnover so we're often dealing with new trainees. A friend of mine went to school for social work (master's) and CPS made a deal to finance her education if she agreed to work for them a few years after she was through. So she had to tailor her courses to the skills they needed and do her internship with them. They burned her out so bad during the internship she decided to pay them back the money rather than work for them! The system is so broken--better than nothing at all but that's not saying much. We ought to fund it better and also redesign it so it works better and people don't get their kids taken away for a few photos of their little ones bathing while real abusers or parents who are temporarily incapacitated get away with neglect. The system shouldn't be SO bad that children and teens fear it more than they fear their abusive families! I think teens should be involved in meetings where new solutions are brainstormed. They have a unique point of view. Teens with siblings and teens with neglectful, sick or abusive parents should be consulted every step of the way regarding what they'd like to see in any ideal solution. But it's difficult to get people on board to raise taxes to care for other people's kids.
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Post by jemand on Oct 7, 2009 19:21:34 GMT -5
But it's difficult to get people on board to raise taxes to care for other people's kids. yeah, because they clearly *choose* which family THEY would be born into I know the attitude, it just strikes me as fabulously stupid. We do need a better system, and if we'd just stop going and killing *other people's* children on the other side of the world we'd be able to do it.
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Post by rosa on Oct 8, 2009 15:03:58 GMT -5
It's actually not that easy to lure a kid out of a good situation. Teenagers are not stupid - and if they had a way to go to a new situation without burning bridges or setting up legal barriers to going home, that would make it easier to unmake bad choices. Which is part of what having a good home is about for a teen - a safety net so you can practice making adult choices without facing all of the adult consequences.
Anyway, when my brother was a teenager, whenever he was mad at my mom he'd say "I'm going to go live with dad!" and she'd say "Fine!" - but he never did because when he *could* get my dad to actually show up, he'd quickly remember all the reasons mom was better. There are actual bad reasons to choose another situation - addicts would choose their enablers, among other things - but there could be safeguards against that (there already are *some* for adult addicts and people with mental illness.)
Tapati's right, overall, of course - any good social welfare system needs good funding and none of ours get it.
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Post by tapati on Oct 8, 2009 15:36:31 GMT -5
What we don't realize as a society is the lost potential when children are not protected and nurtured properly.
Sure, some of us manage to survive our bad childhoods and go on to become productive adults. But even we could have been more productive and happier if we hadn't gone through what we did, if there had been a good alternative.
Others are lost for life, or for decades before they get mental health care that helps them turn things around. Some never do and end up in prison, an institution, or dead. Some perpetuate the cycle of abuse and create a new generation of abused or neglected kids.
We'll never know what we lost as a society--what books, art, technological advancements, valued public servants, or other contribution that never got made. We'll never know which children wouldn't have been victimized at all if their abuser had received help when they were children. We'll never know what could have been done with all the money that goes into extra law enforcement and prisons and DEA budgets as the wounded adult children self medicate and commit crimes or simply bounce from one bad scrape and relationship to the next, needing more resources from social welfare and law enforcement than those who had stable child hoods.
We are penny wise and pound foolish.
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Post by km on Oct 9, 2009 23:26:58 GMT -5
"I've only seen clips of the show, since we don't have that channel on our programming, but what I've seen makes me so angry."
I'm not sure how to do the quote boxes, but in any case... What bothers me about the show is that they're presented as this quaint, happy, friendly, slightly out of the ordinary family. I've only seen one episode--the one in which they all went to the Vision Forum, and it was so maddening to see Vision Forum shown as such a harmless, apolitical group of people who want nothing more than to see family-friendly films. The show blatantly displays QF as a positive--if quirky--lifestyle, and I can't tell you how many non-religious people I've met who find themselves drawn to that because "they just seem like such a nice family!"
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Post by stampinmama on Oct 10, 2009 7:27:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure how to do the quote boxes, but in any case... What bothers me about the show is that they're presented as this quaint, happy, friendly, slightly out of the ordinary family. I've only seen one episode--the one in which they all went to the Vision Forum, and it was so maddening to see Vision Forum shown as such a harmless, apolitical group of people who want nothing more than to see family-friendly films. The show blatantly displays QF as a positive--if quirky--lifestyle, and I can't tell you how many non-religious people I've met who find themselves drawn to that because "they just seem like such a nice family!" I have a friend who thinks the Duggars are the most wonderful family in the whole world. I keep trying to explain the dangers of Patriarchy and the QF movement to him, but I always get the same answer: They just seem like such a nice family. GAH!
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Post by grandmalou on Oct 10, 2009 8:48:41 GMT -5
I'm not sure how to do the quote boxes, but in any case... What bothers me about the show is that they're presented as this quaint, happy, friendly, slightly out of the ordinary family. I've only seen one episode--the one in which they all went to the Vision Forum, and it was so maddening to see Vision Forum shown as such a harmless, apolitical group of people who want nothing more than to see family-friendly films. The show blatantly displays QF as a positive--if quirky--lifestyle, and I can't tell you how many non-religious people I've met who find themselves drawn to that because "they just seem like such a nice family!" I have a friend who thinks the Duggars are the most wonderful family in the whole world. I keep trying to explain the dangers of Patriarchy and the QF movement to him, but I always get the same answer: They just seem like such a nice family. GAH! Hi, Erika, and Welcome, KM! There is a lady at our church who is like this over the Duggars. "I just LOVE the Duggars! They are just so WHOLESOME, so SPIRITUAL! So GODLY!" And recently a whole family of hers came up from Missouri, and they are like copy cats of the same...7 boys, 3 girls...boys in black slacks, white shirts, neckties...Dad the same. Singing, looking like carbon copy peacocks. Mom and the three girls in the typical denim jumpers! ACK, and each of the girls holding a little boy who was "too little to be allowed to run around and be disruptive!" YIKES! Mom and girls...looking at their shoes...no eye contact with any one. Made me want to RUN! RUN! RUN!
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Post by km on Oct 10, 2009 9:06:11 GMT -5
"Mom and the three girls in the typical denim jumpers!"
Most of the guys I knew in QF got to dress fairly normally. But those denim jumpers... oy. They're...really not flattering on anyone. I look back and think, "Why was I doing frumpy at 14?"
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Post by verklempt on Oct 17, 2009 18:57:04 GMT -5
I identify with your story on so many levels its kinda freakish.
It boggles my mind to see how much of our lives my parents relinquished to complete strangers and for what? Promises of perfection?
School was the first thing to go for me, too. Then sports. Then any kind of non ATIA approved media. Then non-ATIA family and friends. Then enjoyable, non martyr related books... and then.... and then...
Thanks for sharing your story, Erika. I get it.
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Post by stampinmama on Oct 18, 2009 19:30:05 GMT -5
Then any kind of non ATIA approved media. Then non-ATIA family and friends. Oh man.....you had to endure the whole ATIA thing? You have my deepest sympathy. Thank God my parents didn't get into that, even though what they were doing was bad enough. Every time I hear the name Bill Gothard, I throw up in my mouth a little.
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Post by verklempt on Oct 21, 2009 14:21:23 GMT -5
Then any kind of non ATIA approved media. Then non-ATIA family and friends. Oh man.....you had to endure the whole ATIA thing? You have my deepest sympathy. Thank God my parents didn't get into that, even though what they were doing was bad enough. Every time I hear the name Bill Gothard, I throw up in my mouth a little. Yeah, he tends to have that effect on those who have had experience with fundamentalism.
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