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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 10, 2010 8:29:24 GMT -5
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Post by freefromtyranny on May 10, 2010 9:26:34 GMT -5
This post reminds me of the series by krwordgazer (isn't that her name?) on testing the QF movement and whether isolation is really biblical.
It also makes me glad that I escaped when I did.
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Post by xara on May 10, 2010 9:28:36 GMT -5
Erika, You are great. I am so glad you were strong enough to resist.
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Post by cereselle on May 10, 2010 9:29:41 GMT -5
ZOMG yay! I've been wondering what was next! But ugh, what a trap. I can totally understand escaping in books. Where else could you go to experience anything that wasn't so rigidly controlled? Even though I know the story ends happily, I can't help feeling depressed and trapped along with your teenage self.
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Post by Sierra on May 10, 2010 9:38:05 GMT -5
Aww, Erika. I really felt for you with the music! I was lucky enough to have my own computer as a teen in the days of Napster, so I had a collection of eeeevil Billy Joel and Beach Boys mp3s stashed away under a folder called something like 'English report'. I put on massive noise-canceling headphones and danced at night when my parents were asleep. ;D Then I deleted everything in an attempt to get closer to Jesus when I was 14.
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Post by hopewell on May 10, 2010 11:04:23 GMT -5
It was preached to us that the Christian life is often a lonely one, but I had a hard time believing that this was how God wanted us to live. To purposefully put ourselves in so small of a box. To segregate ourselves from everyone and everything.
So true! I have never felt we were not to know or enjoy others! "in the world, not of the world" does not at all mean CLOSED OFF ALONE. As small as the attempts were it is nice that your Mom tried to help--not in any way you wanted, but she apparently did see some of your suffering. True needlework is not friends or active fun like basketball! I'm proud of my librarian-colleagues for defying censorship and giving you the tapes!!!
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Post by rosa on May 10, 2010 11:12:14 GMT -5
Erika, you demonstrate such strength of character all through these stories. I love that the librarian was part of your little rebellion, too.
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Post by stampinmama on May 10, 2010 11:22:08 GMT -5
Erika, you demonstrate such strength of character all through these stories. I love that the librarian was part of your little rebellion, too. Thank you, Rosa. These certainly weren't the first librarians that helped in my rebellion. When we moved to PA, I had other librarian friends that came to my rescue.
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Post by humbletigger on May 10, 2010 11:50:46 GMT -5
Librarians rule!!
I feel for you, Erika. Having everything in your life scrutinized and controlled must have been horrible!
As a home school mom, I am GUESSING (only guessing, I don't know your mom) that your mom chose isolation for you because it meant community for her.
The "Christian" home school community, from a mom's perspective, is very much like public school. There are "in" ways to dress, and if you don't want to be excluded, you better wear the right stuff. There are "in" curriculum to choose, "in" conferences to attend, and- as you know too well- "in" ways to parent your children.
As a parent who very rarely agrees with what is "in" in Christian home school circles, I can say that without a doubt if your mom did not want to live ostracized, she had to conform. The more conformity, the more acceptable she would be to the other moms.
And since the strictest, most austere lifestyle was the only one no one could find fault with, they are the ones who get to decide what is sin and who is out. The Heidi Klum of the home school community wears frumpy clothes, no makeup and probably a head covering, at least at church!
It is so ironic. The very thing they claim to be saving their children FROM, the dreaded PEER PRESSURE, is a demi-god ruling their entire existence. It's religious in that the group they are trying to fit in with is religious, but it is PEER PRESSURE in its purest from, once the veneer is stripped away.
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Post by philosophia on May 10, 2010 15:12:48 GMT -5
I love reading your perspective as a daughter.
My perspective as a mother is not as different as you may think. Secretly listening to the radio at rare moments when I was alone, then feeling guilty. Trying to screen the children's reading material for good examples, but hating the sappiness of "Christian" literature. I refused to let them read some lines of christian books because I though they were just too lousy. (Eventually letting them read everything but Harry Potter, Ha ha!)
It was strange, giving the children mind numbing things to read knowing it wasn't stimulating but wanting to keep evil influences away. It was a tough line to walk.
After a while my urge for good literature took over and I began reading and having the children read classics. I think this kept a part of our minds free from total indoctrination. I'll never forget how appalled I was after reading "The Good Earth" but somehow relating to the story. Ugh!
I love your writing.
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Post by krwordgazer on May 10, 2010 23:01:18 GMT -5
Erica, my sister is a children's librarian. Sometimes she talks about how apparent QF moms (dressed frumpy, lots of kids) come into the library. They always want really old stuff-- she keeps some of the old-fashioned fiction books around just for them. She says they're mad at her because she replaced old non-fiction books where the data and information had become obsolete. Apparently these moms don't trust any book that contains knowledge discovered after 1955 or so.
I have no doubt she'd help a kid smuggle something home they weren't supposed to read or listen to-- but so far, no kid has asked her.
You know, I was a lot more like your sister than like you as a child-- eager to please, wanting approval even at the cost of independent thinking. My sister who is now a librarian played the same kind of role in our family that you did in yours. I know how hard it was for her, but also that she couldn't have done otherwise. I so admire her courage and the backbone she had, that I just didn't have back then.
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Post by km on May 11, 2010 8:43:17 GMT -5
Trying to screen the children's reading material for good examples, but hating the sappiness of "Christian" literature. And not just the sappiness, but the piss poor writing quality... Ugh... Even at my most fundie phase, I could not stomach Christian "literature." C.S. Lewis had at least been a decent writer, but then he got sidelined for being "interested in witchcraft" and "married to a communist." And *then* I was expected to like crap like the "Love Comes Softly" series. Argh... I am grateful that my books and music were never censored, as they were such formative, crucial parts of growing up for me. I'm glad that you were at least able to find some escape through the library. And good to see this series again, Erika!
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Post by egalgirl on May 11, 2010 8:46:13 GMT -5
Hey, look on the bright side...at least you were allowed to go to the library! I once read a fundie blog by a woman who was saying that the use of public libraries signifies a reliance on the government, and it was just as bad as sending your kids to "government schools." I don't remember how she came to this logic, but I remember thinking it was pretty odd... Or else it was a big commercial for Vision Forum's ridiculously expensive books, since she provided a link to their site!!! Reading all of your stories makes me want to hop in the car, drive for 10 hours, and give my mom a hug for NOT raising me in that kind of environment - I knew many kids who were, including family friends, and I know there was pressure [one family actually paid to send my mom and me to a Bill Gothard Basic Seminar - that was a barrel of fun, let me tell you!], but she stuck to her guns and raised her kids the way she knew we needed to be raised.
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Post by choiceisgood on May 11, 2010 9:19:18 GMT -5
I remember coming out of the first Harry Potter movie with my children and a fundamentalist Christian group picketing the film handed my nine year old daughter a flier explaining why they felt Harry Potter books and movies were evil. She was reading it out loud in the car and imagine how horrified my husband and I were when she stumbled on the word fellatio, trying her best to sound it out. My supposedly "worldly" child was handed this propaganda by another child from the fundamentalist group! Sounds like that group censored their own readings but have no qualms putting it out there for others.
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Post by humbletigger on May 11, 2010 9:42:26 GMT -5
choiceisgood,
OMG no! Who would do that to a child!? So sorry that you and your daughter experienced that.
I used to be afraid of Harry Potter books, but it was not on that level!
I just didn't want my children playing witch when they were still too young to really differentiate between fantasy and reality- though even that cracks me up now. I'm pretty sure that didn't bother me when they dressed up as Superman, pirates or princesses.
When the movies came out, the oldest was old enough to watch. The younger got nightmares from watching the Scooby-Doo movie though. He still needed to grow some. He skipped HP altogether and graduated right on through to Dawn of the Dead!
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Post by Sierra on May 11, 2010 9:59:22 GMT -5
I just didn't want my children playing witch when they were still too young to really differentiate between fantasy and reality- though even that cracks me up now. I'm pretty sure that didn't bother me when they dressed up as Superman, pirates or princesses. I was one of those sensitive kids who got nightmares from everything, so I suspect that was the real motivator behind my parents keeping me from movies like 'Nightmare before Christmas.' My mom bought all the Newberry award books for me, and some of them definitely wouldn't have passed most fundie censorship. (Mara, Daughter of the Nile comes to mind.) I read the Janette Oke books, but was much more interested in the dramatic ones like Frank Peretti's and the ones about the Zionist movement whose titles and author I've forgotten. That said, I'm curious: do you still think there is an age where children are unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality? It's been a long time since I've interacted with children, but I can't say I remember any of them not knowing that something was 'pretend' unless they were told it was real from the outset (i.e. Santa).
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Post by km on May 11, 2010 10:05:11 GMT -5
I knew many kids who were, including family friends, and I know there was pressure [one family actually paid to send my mom and me to a Bill Gothard Basic Seminar - that was a barrel of fun, let me tell you!], but she stuck to her guns and raised her kids the way she knew we needed to be raised. Ahahaha, there was a family who paid for me to go to a Bill Gothard Basic Seminar as well. I've written about it more extensively on this forum, but yeah... A barrel of laughs innit.
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Post by freefromtyranny on May 11, 2010 11:09:08 GMT -5
That said, I'm curious: do you still think there is an age where children are unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality? It's been a long time since I've interacted with children, but I can't say I remember any of them not knowing that something was 'pretend' unless they were told it was real from the outset (i.e. Santa). My 4yo is constantly asking me "Is that real?" So he is right at that age where he is figuring out what is real and what is not and we spend some portion of each movie we watch pointing out what other movies those actors have been in....so, see, they are actors. I think the issue of being scared by movies is different than thinking they are real. As an adult *I* get scared when there is dramatic music even though I know it's all pretend. Some of my kids are sensitive like me and others laugh at dramatic scenes.
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Post by rosa on May 11, 2010 11:24:00 GMT -5
Sierra, there's definitely a time when kids can tell you what's real or not real, but they are busy experimenting with the world to see how what they learn applies, so they mix the not-real stuff up with the real in practice. My son is still in it, he's almost 5. I don't know when/if it ends. But for instance, there was a time when he was maybe 3 when he watched too much Word World and made himself a rocketship out of pillows and was just obviously disappointed when it wouldn't launch. He kept trying different things - I know! I forgot my helmet! I will put on my helmet and try again. Oh, no. Maybe it needs a steering wheel to work!
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em
Full Member
Posts: 176
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Post by em on May 11, 2010 12:42:38 GMT -5
I'm glad you were at least able to smuggle some music and the occassional talk with your friends. I can't imagine how lonely you must have been, Erika. How awful.
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Post by anatheist on May 11, 2010 18:15:42 GMT -5
That said, I'm curious: do you still think there is an age where children are unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality? It's been a long time since I've interacted with children, but I can't say I remember any of them not knowing that something was 'pretend' unless they were told it was real from the outset (i.e. Santa). I don't think that I could distinguish fantasy from reality when I was "saved" as a 4 year old. I was willing to accept that Jesus and Moses and David, etc were "real" instead of stories, even though they seemed just like stories. I guess that according to most evangelical theology, after being "saved", even at a young age, the Holy Spirit should have guided me and made the truth of Jesus real to me, but that just never happened. So I grew up having a problem with what was reality. Were the Zionist books Brock and Bodie Thoene's Zion Covenant? I thought that the story telling was decent if you took out the Christianity parts - but I feel generally cheated by the quality and content of the books that I was allowed to read. I was able to sneak a few secular YA type books that didn't contain sex or violence by the censor.
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Post by Sierra on May 12, 2010 4:23:37 GMT -5
I don't think that I could distinguish fantasy from reality when I was "saved" as a 4 year old. I was willing to accept that Jesus and Moses and David, etc were "real" instead of stories, even though they seemed just like stories. I guess that according to most evangelical theology, after being "saved", even at a young age, the Holy Spirit should have guided me and made the truth of Jesus real to me, but that just never happened. So I grew up having a problem with what was reality. Were the Zionist books Brock and Bodie Thoene's Zion Covenant? I thought that the story telling was decent if you took out the Christianity parts - but I feel generally cheated by the quality and content of the books that I was allowed to read. I was able to sneak a few secular YA type books that didn't contain sex or violence by the censor. Yes, those were the books. I thought the Thoenes and Peretti were good storytellers at the time. Now, Peretti's politics make me cringe, but it all just went over my head as an adolescent. Frankly, I used to skip over the heavy religious sections in almost every book I read, because I was more interested in finding out what happened next! Anyone else remember the Mandie books? I was much more interested in the plot and the characters than the random Bible verses that got plugged in to drive home the moral. As for the fantasy/reality divide, it sounds like the consensus view is that kids sort this out quite young (<5) and thus should really have their ideas straight by the time they start reading novels of the caliber of Harry Potter.
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Post by freefromtyranny on May 12, 2010 7:21:33 GMT -5
As for the fantasy/reality divide, it sounds like the consensus view is that kids sort this out quite young (<5) and thus should really have their ideas straight by the time they start reading novels of the caliber of Harry Potter. I don't think the issue was whether the *kids* would believe the stuff in Harry Potter, it was that the adults believed there was some truth to Harry Potter.
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Post by humbletigger on May 12, 2010 9:00:37 GMT -5
"In the latter part of the preoperational period, the child begins to have an understanding between reality and fantasy." From Piaget's Stages of Cognitive Development in Children: found at this link www.telacommunications.com/nutshell/stages.htmPiaget's Stages of Cognitive Development are commonly accepted and taught in sociology and early childhood development classes at all colleges and universities. Sorting out fantasy from reality starts at around the age of seven but happens at different ages on an individual to individual basis. Many seven year olds are already questioning cultural stories about the easter bunny, tooth fairy, etc. but some persist in believing in this sort of magical reality until much later- the oldest I've ever met was an 11 year old with developmental issues. Oh wait, my neighbor's cerebral palsy daughter held out on Santa until she was 14. I thank God I was not discouraged from learning about child development and sociology, etc. I am more grateful that my mom was a feminist every day. Even though she used feminism, like she used Christianity, only to manage her public persona and thereby gain narcissistic supply, both of those worlds have had an enormous positive impact on me. ps how do you apply blockquotes?
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Post by humbletigger on May 12, 2010 9:08:44 GMT -5
"I don't think the issue was whether the *kids* would believe the stuff in Harry Potter, it was that the adults believed there was some truth to Harry Potter." Not at my house, it wasn't. I am quite honest about the reasons we held back on HP until the middle school years. On the other hand, the "fact" that J.K. Rowling was Wiccan was widely circulated in fundamentalist circles, and many people did believe that. Guilty by association! I guess it was feared your children could become Wiccan by reading her stories? I haven't ever researched it to see if it was true, though it hardly matters to me, since (disclaimer: I am a Christian!) the book series was a fiction, not a systemic theology textbook.
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