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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 4, 2010 7:31:32 GMT -5
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Post by grandmalou on May 4, 2010 8:24:06 GMT -5
Thank you, Sierra. Beautifully written, and so sad that you had to lose your friend in this manner. This is such a reality though, in the totally gender-conscious planet we live on, isn't it? I found out way too late in life, that best friends make the best husbands.
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Post by xara on May 4, 2010 10:00:33 GMT -5
Great post Sierra.
How awful that must have been. All my life most of my friends have been guys. I usually have a couple of close female friends but the guys definitely outnumber the girls. And being stuck doing things like playing with dolls and watching younger siblings would have pissed me off big time.
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Post by rosa on May 4, 2010 14:24:21 GMT -5
The way you were pressured to not just give up that friendship, but "choose sides" is so cold - your friend's mom was overt in making you give up the friendship, but the kids obviously had internalized the rules too.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 5, 2010 8:23:03 GMT -5
Sierra ~ this post reminded me of an incident when we first started home churching at Dale and Laura's house.
Angel was about 12 years old. Due to our homeschooling and all the sheltering, she was quite innocent with regards to boys and sexuality. So at the home church, she was playing outside along with all the other kids ~ thinking nothing about the mixing of boys and girls ~ just having a good time. Well ~ apparently, the home church men noticed Angel's spring dress ~ it was sort of an Easter-style dress, colorful, cool ~ and sleeveless ~ and these men mentioned to their sons that they should stay away from Angel to avoid being tempted to lust. The boys then took it upon themselves to explain to Angel that she was dressed immodestly.
She was horrified! Never again could she just relax and have fun with those kids ~ because all the sudden, she was well aware that she is a girl ~ and they are boys ~ and they didn't think of her as a nice friend who is someone fun to play with ~ they thought of her as a female body with too much skin showing.
I was outraged. I felt like those men stole my daughter's innocence ~ ARGH!! Protecting her innocence was the whole reason we were homeschooling and had been looking forward to being a part of a home fellowship. Angel was never able to feel comfortable around the home church kids again ~ she HATED home church.
Darn! I thought ~ this'll make it so much harder. I was hoping the home church kids' influence would make Angel feel like she fit in and was not a freak ~ I hoped being around "like-minded" children would help her to accept our QF lifestyle. That totally backfired. And I guess it was for the best ~ because if Angel would have accepted and embraced our Quiverfull beliefs, we might still be home fellowshipping at the Hipps' farm.
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hrd
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Post by hrd on May 5, 2010 10:02:26 GMT -5
I would like to bring up how this attitude causes damage beyond childhood/adolescent friendships. Because my parents (not QF, "but Messianic Jewish" fundies) bought into the whole not dating/courting bag of crap, I had virtually no experience with the opposite sex. When I got to college and abandoned the faith, I very quickly entered into a relationship and got married. The marriage has somehow miraculously survived, but not without some great struggles. I was so immature when it came to romantic/sexual relationships, and I expected way too much out of marriage/my spouse. At the same time I had no idea how to stand up for myself when I needed to, and let my husband walk all over me. At the age of 35, I now finally feel like a person who is really mature enought o be married. When I witness people, I unfortunately think of as "normal," i.e. people who dated boys and had non-fundy upbringing, I think they are at least ten years ahead of me in the relationship area.
On another note, I just love how in the QF/Fundie world, there is nary a thought given to children who may be *gasp* gay! All this gender isolation must be interesting if you are not heterosexual!
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Post by Sierra on May 5, 2010 10:07:03 GMT -5
...these men mentioned to their sons that they should stay away from Angel to avoid being tempted to lust. The boys then took it upon themselves to explain to Angel that she was dressed immodestly. ... I was outraged. I felt like those men stole my daughter's innocence ~ ARGH!! Protecting her innocence was the whole reason we were homeschooling and had been looking forward to being a part of a home fellowship. Angel was never able to feel comfortable around the home church kids again ~ she HATED home church. Wow, Vyckie, I can't get over how creepy it is that the men told their sons to chastise your daughter. Did they take some perverse satisfaction in a.) putting sexual thoughts in their sons' minds, b.) having their sons practice 'taking authority' and 'correcting the error' of their female peers? Church was bad enough when every adult felt entitled to correct me for everything. Let alone people my age! (There were probably Message churches where girls were raised to serve and obey their brothers; mine was a small and 'liberal' Message church.)
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Post by Sierra on May 5, 2010 10:31:46 GMT -5
I would like to bring up how this attitude causes damage beyond childhood/adolescent friendships. Because my parents (not QF, "but Messianic Jewish" fundies) bought into the whole not dating/courting bag of crap, I had virtually no experience with the opposite sex. When I got to college and abandoned the faith, I very quickly entered into a relationship and got married. The marriage has somehow miraculously survived, but not without some great struggles. I was so immature when it came to romantic/sexual relationships, and I expected way too much out of marriage/my spouse. At the same time I had no idea how to stand up for myself when I needed to, and let my husband walk all over me. At the age of 35, I now finally feel like a person who is really mature enought o be married. When I witness people, I unfortunately think of as "normal," i.e. people who dated boys and had non-fundy upbringing, I think they are at least ten years ahead of me in the relationship area. On another note, I just love how in the QF/Fundie world, there is nary a thought given to children who may be *gasp* gay! All this gender isolation must be interesting if you are not heterosexual! Both very good points. As a result of the strict sex segregation in my church, extremely intimate friendships within sexes developed. More than a few 'worldly' people wondered if some of our congregation weren't closeted by the way they treated their same-sex friends. I think it encouraged a very fragmented style of human bonding: same-sex friends met all one's emotional needs, but one got married in order to have sex. As grandmalou pointed out, good partners are best friends. This was impossible in the 'courting' scene, as the less a girl talked to a boy before the wedding night, the better. The ideal model seemed to be that the couple in question never even noticed one another's existence, then God told the man which woman to pick out. (Puking smiley, please?) In fact, the less attracted they were to one another, the more certain they were it was God's will. As for continuing problems... I've had a similar experience. I took dating very, very seriously in college. Although I wasn't committed to preserving my virginity, I wouldn't date anyone I couldn't see myself marrying down the road. As a result, I turned down three or four guys before I met my first (and current) boyfriend (whom I actually do plan to marry). We've been together for three years and are taking our time about it, and I know he's the one I want to be with. But do I ever wish I'd gone on some casual dates as a teen and learned more about being confident and able to express my own needs? Absolutely. The courtship folks say that the problem with 'dating culture' (love how they make a 'culture' out of everything they oppose) is that it opens up young women to have their hearts broken (do they ever even bother saying this about young men?) by investing too much in a relationship too young. Then they tell kids that when they do finally enter their first relationship, it has to be the one and therefore perfect. If anything then does go wrong, there's a horrible load of guilt and stigma of 'failure' attached to what otherwise would be simply a bad choice to be learned from. Worse, those pressures to make the first relationship the last means young couples who really aren't getting along very well feel pressured to get married anyway, and spend the rest of their lives trying to bury their misery in same-sex friendships, obsessive devotion to church, and emotionally incestuous relationships with their children.
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Post by zoeygirl on May 5, 2010 10:54:42 GMT -5
I think it encouraged a very fragmented style of human bonding: same-sex friends met all one's emotional needs, but one got married in order to have sex. Great post, sierra. This quote is totally me. I've never understood why men scared me so much and why I couldn't seem to be friends with a man (unless I found him completely unattractive). In my late teens/early 20's when I would date someone, I would rush into the physical side of it way to fast. Everything but intercourse, though, because that's the unforgivable sin! Lately I've been thinking that it's because I didn't have an emotional relationship with my father, and that may have something to do with it, but I hadn't thought that maybe it's because of my patriarchal upbringing. But I always had deeply emotional relationships with my female friends. I'm going to have to stew on this a while.
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syfr
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Post by syfr on May 5, 2010 11:23:49 GMT -5
Sierra,
(do they ever even bother saying this about young men?)
No, they don't. Patriarchy, both secular and religious, tells us men only want sex, and women only want emotional connection. What a crock of QW#$!
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Post by usotsuki on May 5, 2010 11:37:31 GMT -5
On another note, I just love how in the QF/Fundie world, there is nary a thought given to children who may be *gasp* gay! All this gender isolation must be interesting if you are not heterosexual! Or perhaps worse, transgendered...
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Post by nikita on May 5, 2010 19:23:08 GMT -5
Then they tell kids that when they do finally enter their first relationship, it has to be the one and therefore perfect. If anything then does go wrong, there's a horrible load of guilt and stigma of 'failure' attached to what otherwise would be simply a bad choice to be learned from.
Wow, this took me back. In my group we were working out our own way of doing things -- no outsiders' books and opinions, no religious fads in my group. But we did not date. Most of us had lived a freewheeling countercultural lifestyle in the sixties and early seventies and dated and slept with whom we would etc as the times tended to encourage then so it wasn't lack of experience that plagued us. It was the 'post-salvation' expectations that made life tricky. One was not supposed to enter into a relationship with a person of the opposite sex unless marriage was intended eventually with that person. It was all so deadly serious. No touching of any kind permitted - no hand holding, kissing, or heaven forbid, petting or intercourse! Just talking to each other, having dinner together, witnessing together, innocent outings, etc. No chaperons needed, we were on our honor.
But what this meant was that marriage was expected to be the end of this, and if you got a ways down that road and then broke up, there was speculation about this. What went wrong? Was one partner or the other a problem? I remember clearly thinking that I had to make this relationship work or I would be stigmatized forever and no one would take a chance on me again. I'd be like a leper. What's wrong with her? Why would a good brother like John reject her? It was horrible. (We married. We shouldn't have.)
On the opposite side, we had really great friends who were girls. We lived in big houses together, hung out together, went to school or work together, did everything with our closest one to ten female friends (depending on how outgoing you naturally were). Then one day a (male) leader decided we were all too close. We hugged each other when we met up, etc. There must be something wrong with that. Could we be (gasp!) leaning toward or actively lesbian?! It was announced that no more hugging and casual touching (grabbing a hand or an arm in support or greeting, like that) was permitted. No good could come of touching each other in any way. We thought it was so stupid but we rolled our eyes and obeyed the edict. We used to laugh and say 'consider yourself hugged' when otherwise we would have hugged each other. We laughed, but we lost something in that.
What kind of people (usually men) saw lust and 'evil' in even the most innocent of human touch? It seems to be now (and did then as well) that the people who saw lust and evil in innocent contact were the ones with the lust and evil in their hearts and needed to look to their own motives not ours. But of course, one didn't say that. Not then. You'd get thrown out and shunned as a 'troublemaker'. That would have been the kiss of death back then.
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Post by krwordgazer on May 5, 2010 21:09:04 GMT -5
Sierra, of all the stories you've told so far, that one made me the saddest. I remember so strongly what it felt like to lose a best friend in childhood like that. I hate the kind of pressure that forces kids to reject their friends in order to fit in. *hugs to little-girl Sierra and her lost friend*
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Post by ambrosia on May 5, 2010 21:27:17 GMT -5
What kind of people (usually men) saw lust and 'evil' in even the most innocent of human touch? It seems to be now (and did then as well) that the people who saw lust and evil in innocent contact were the ones with the lust and evil in their hearts and needed to look to their own motives not ours. But of course, one didn't say that. Not then. You'd get thrown out and shunned as a 'troublemaker'. That would have been the kiss of death back then. My 2cents as one who hasn't personally experienced the fundamentalist lifestyle of any flavour: from reading the various peoples' descriptions these types seems to have one priority in dealing with women -- making us small in any way possible. edited for clarity - multiple previews & still mangled - aargh!
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Post by nikita on May 5, 2010 21:29:23 GMT -5
I hate when this happens. I got so caught up in a trigger from my past that I forgot to write my response to Sierra herself. head-table-thunk. I am so sorry that happened to you Sierra. To be a sheltered little girl and have grown men and their young sons treat you like a little temptress is beyond hurtful and hateful. It's easier for us as adults to put their behavior in the perspective it deserves but a child has no defenses against this kind of hateful sexist bigotry. Consider yourself hugged. (that works pretty well over the internet.)
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Post by spacedcowgirl on May 7, 2010 9:43:26 GMT -5
Sierra, you are a wonderful writer and have an amazing knack for understanding and breaking down the cultural forces that were at play in your upbringing. But I'm so sorry you had to lose a friend this way.
Your comment upthread is excellent too. Too much great stuff to quote. I think you really hit the nail on the head. I hope it is not presumptuous for me to say that since I wasn't raised in a patriarchal church, but I feel like in some ways we all came up in a patriarchy (though certainly some of us were fortunate enough to be less affected) and it pays to be aware of and be able to think critically about those elements of our culture.
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Post by arietty on May 7, 2010 19:42:52 GMT -5
Sierra ~ this post reminded me of an incident when we first started home churching at Dale and Laura's house. Angel was about 12 years old. Due to our homeschooling and all the sheltering, she was quite innocent with regards to boys and sexuality. So at the home church, she was playing outside along with all the other kids ~ thinking nothing about the mixing of boys and girls ~ just having a good time. Well ~ apparently, the home church men noticed Angel's spring dress ~ it was sort of an Easter-style dress, colorful, cool ~ and sleeveless ~ and these men mentioned to their sons that they should stay away from Angel to avoid being tempted to lust. The boys then took it upon themselves to explain to Angel that she was dressed immodestly. If an adult male had talked that way about my 12 year old I would have ripped his head off. That is disgusting, making sexual comments about a child! I would have told him he was a PERVERT. Totally, utterly inappropriate.
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Post by jadehawk on May 8, 2010 17:36:43 GMT -5
this doesn't go away when entering the more conservative half of mainstream, either. They too whine about how girls are being used and having their feelings hurt by modern "culture". Except that they are yearning for the "dating culture" and are bemoaning the "hookup culture" instead!
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