133 comments:
Southern Beale said...
Thanks for sharing your story ... I wonder if you now view Quiverfull as a cult? From my outsider perspective, it seems to have some cult aspects to me.
Not all Christians see the world in such absolute terms as the fundamentalists. Perhaps after some time of healing you can find comfort in faith, not oppression.
Good luck to you and your family.
Friday, March 13, 2009
Gigi said...
I came over from Salon.com. I admire your bravery in going out on your own. Although I'm the youngest of seven (Catholic parents), I can't imagine what it's like to have to raise all those kids, much less as a single mom.
No path in life is easy, but at least you have the peace of mind to know that you're making your own decisions. Good luck with everything you do.
Gigi
Friday, March 13, 2009
Anonymous said...
I was with you until you got to the 'angry feminist bitches' part. Everything you've written here, which you have recently figured out, has been written about by feminists over the past hundred years or so. Did they tell you feminists were bad too? Of course they did.
And what is wrong with being angry when you've been treated so horribly?
Friday, March 13, 2009
Allison Reynolds said...
Vyckie you did the best you could and no one should ever ask for more.
As an atheist mother in Australia (it's weird saying I am an atheist because...well it's no big deal here in Australia) your story touches me on the human level. I have tried to imagine what it would have been like to have that many children with so little support from a partner who cared. Terrible
Still, you are quite obviously very smart, positive and bright and you will go on into the future with strength from your experiences (roses do grow out of manure as they say). If I can help you with anything in some way please drop me a line.
Friday, March 13, 2009
Anonymous said...
thank you so much for sharing this with the world. Look forward to reading more.
Friday, March 13, 2009
mojitogirl said...
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!
Friday, March 13, 2009
Athaliah said...
I found your article through Salon.com and it intrigued me so much because even though I'm a christian I am not immersed in everything "christian" and by that I mean that I'm not surrounded with everything holy. Quite the contrary, I'm a college student attending a very liberal University. Therefore I didn't know about the organizations and the fundamentalist movements you spoke of; your story has opened my eyes to something I was clueless about. Nonetheless, I completely sympathize with your experience and everything you had to endure, and from what you explained about the patriarchal movement I am in complete disagreement. I don't believe that's how it should be in the times we live in, and the segregation, practically excluding kids from the outside world is incorrect. From my experiences I find that it is in the outside world, when you have to interact and make sense of the times we are living in, where you can form a balanced and mature knowledge of God. Where the Bible can take on its meaning in the hustle and bustle of daily life. Exclusion is not the answer. There are plenty other things I disagree with in regards to the "movement" but if I continue my comment will be too long. I just want to congratulate you on standing up for yourself and your children in the face of opposition. Be blessed,
Naty
P.S. I agree with you Southern Beale, "not all christians see the world in such absolute terns as the fundamentalists."
Friday, March 13, 2009
Anonymous said...
I'm not a religious person, but you are, or used to be. So why would a god make you if you didn't matter? That seems to be what the Quiverfull movement--and much of the right to life movement--is about: that babies who haven't yet been born, or even conceived, are more important than real-life, actual women.
You MATTER. And by leaving this movement, you have modeled for your daughters the idea that they MATTER. You should be really proud of that. It doesn't mean that you can't lead a devout, Christian life, either. If you take care of yourself--the self that god gave to you--then there will be more of you for your kids, for other women, for other people, for the planet.
In the end, much of what we need to know about how to live is realized in that boring speech the flight attendants make about what to do if something goes wrong on the airplane: "Adjust your mask before helping your child."
You've adjusted your mask--congratulations!--and now you will be able to keep breathing, and in so doing you can give yourself to other people and causes who need you. Any god who has a problem with that--well, that's a childish, petty god who doesn't deserve your attention, let alone your worship.
Friday, March 13, 2009
Anonymous said...
I'm a mother of 1 with another on the way, and I struggle constantly with losing and finding myself again and again within the context of constant nurturing and mothering and daily chores. I am totally amazed at your fortitude, for living the life you did and for examining yourself and your families needs and getting out! I hope that you find support and friendship to help you along in your new life. The way I see it, mothering your children in the way that is true to YOU is a very powerful act. It's so great you protected them from the oppression they were experiencing under a patriarchal family structure like the quiverfull model.
I think that some of the attitudes you are describing as part of quiverfull are mainstream on a less obvious level. For example, I know many stay at home moms who are not religious who blame themselves if they can't make life at home "perfect" even when their husbands are doing very little or detracting from the harmony of the home. Your brave choice to value yourself and your kids, and to free yourself from the most extreme manifestation of these deeply sexist attitudes can show a lot of women that it's not OK to devalue yourself in the role of wife and mother.
Friday, March 13, 2009
Annie said...
Congratulations on shedding the shackles of religion. How lucky to have an uncle who sees life through the eyes of reason, and who cares enough to try to enlighten others. I was never a Christian but I was a devout believer in God. It took studying my religion to realize that PEOPLE MADE ALL THIS SHIT UP! Weird isn't it, that it just doesn't really sink in for most people. Best wishes.
Friday, March 13, 2009
Anonymous said...
i applaud you for your bravery. i grew up in fundamentalist christian home that has now driven a wedge between me and my family. my heart aches because of it. wishing you well.
Friday, March 13, 2009
Anonymous said...
I just wanted to say that I really admire your strength and courage. It seems to me an amazing act of bravery to totally remake yourself (or perhaps to become yourself) with so many forces within and without conspiring to hold you down.
Thank you for sharing your story. I suppose I've always thought (without really thinking) that the women of the Quiverfull movement must be a little bit crazy, but you've made me see how this is really a complete system of oppression and domination. I am so glad that you saved yourself.
Friday, March 13, 2009
Anonymous said...
Congratulations on finding your voice. Having a large family should be a blessing and something you want,not something you are commanded to do.
I wish you very well.
Friday, March 13, 2009
Anonymous said...
Way to go Vyckie! You are an inspiration to all of us. I admire your courage and strength. Way to stand up for yourself and speak out against such oppression. Your children are lucky to have you as a role model.
Friday, March 13, 2009
Anonymous said...
LOVE you mom. We are lucky to have you as are mother. You might not know this but you are my role model. And I thank you for getting out of the whole fundamentalist Christian thing. Love you much CHASSE BENNETT
ps Thank for giving me a social life.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
raven-moon said...
I admire your courage, applaud your reclaiming of yourself and your freedom, and offer support for your continued journey. You did right, and you need only see the comment before mine to know that.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
You did the right thing, and anyone who condemns you for it doesn't really know God. I wish you and your children well.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Angelia Sparrow said...
Hello, from another Quiverfull Walk-away.
I only had four. I knew four was taxing me and I was never able to give up birth control to be "truly godly." I also knew that at base I would never be a Real Christian (tm) because I was an intelligent woman, and El has no use for those. (I don't call the Hebrew god "God" anymore. I call him by name as I call Odin and Isis by name.)
Of my four little "God-Warriors," The Goddess called two of them and two don't believe much of anything.
Feminism is the radical idea that women are people. It's not the great evil you've been taught. Read _The Feminine Mystique_ and see if you don't identify.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Dee said...
Good for you! I read your story on Salon.com and have nothing but kudos. I wish you a light load and an uplifted head and a welcome change of pace for your new life.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Nina E said...
Dear Vyckie ~ I also came over from Salon.com and I am touched and heartened by your story. I do not recognize the God any fundamentalist, oppressive religious sect. But I am learning to recognize the God in my soul and in the souls of my fellow humans and I hope that you and your lovely children will too, in time. Thank you so much for your story.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
I admire you for everything you've been through and your courage, and for expressing it so articulately!
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
You have my admiration, respect and congratulations. I come from a fundamentalist Christian background that features portions of the lifestyle you used to have to deal with. It's all a lie, and the liars, for the most part, don't even question their motivations. These are small men, and women, whose minds have never fully developed. I applaud you for seeing your life for what it really is... yours... and I hope you are making up for lost time.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
To quote many, I also came from Salon.com, and really wanted to thank you for sharing your story. There must have been a lot of factors that made staying in the Quiverfull community attractive, particularly its support, but I wanted to drop a few lines that this heathen/pagan/unholy/modern/messy/godless/complicated rest of the world accepts YOU, for yourself as a valuable member, along with each of your children.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
bronxelf said...
I am someone you would have been terrified of, pulling your children as far from me as possible(no I'm not a serial killer, I'm just an atheist *and* a woman, *and* a childfree woman at that.)
I just wanted to say that this post clearly must have been very hard to write, and I admire and applaud your doing so. I hope that you and your kids find nothing but joy and happiness as you explore "the rest of the world", and that even when you come upon things you don't like; things that may confuse and hurt you, that you feel comfortable asking the "community at large", as opposed to your former thinking of "community at very, very small" for support, because it will come. I know that in very restrictive religious environments they tell you that's not true. That the only people you can believe and trust are the ones in the same leaky and sinking boat as you. But reality says otherwise. Watch as the comments here bear that out.
Good luck.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
SRR said...
I come from a Christian, NOT fundamentalist, background. Mine is a questioning faith, and my belief goes up and down and in and out. I try to live by Jesus's example: Loving and accepting others, and caring for others. Belief in personal god, or not, I feel that is the right thing to do.
Best wishes in having to make so many difficult decisions and changes.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Michael said...
Vckyie - I came over to this blog from the QuiverFull article in Salon.com and simply wanted to say that I am very impressed with how you were able to reason your way out of this movement. You seem to have a fine mind and a unique ability to express yourself. I think you should be encouraged to use your writing skills to help you move forward. Good luck to both Vckyie and Laura!
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
Congratulations on accepting your own thoughts. I know it had to be painful, but you had the strength of personality to do it. I wish you and your children the best in the future.
Don't worry about sounding like an angry feminist. All women are angry when they realize how they are used by men- it's normal. Men try to make it look like it's the woman with the problem, but nope- it's just that when women stand up for themselves, they are called shrews. And, as you probbly remember, other women accept this too, superiorly thinking that they aren't shrews, and they've put up with way more than that other woman is complaining about. Welcome to true womanhood, where women are people. Period.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
Dear Vyckie,
I read your story on Salon.com and my heart goes out to you. I cannot imagine some of the things you have been through in your life, but the depths of inner strength that you have, not only to be a mother of so many, but put your foot down and speak out against a potentially oppressive movement, is obvious.
I was struck as I read your synopsis of Biblical fundamentalism and what exactly was expected of you to be considered "holy" and "trusting in God," especially when I think of my own experience with Christianity. I think of my despair in trying to be holy, in trying to do everything "right" to somehow make God pleased to with me and others admire me. Christ words, "My yoke is easy and my burden is light," were very perplexing to me at times. I agree with you: it can't be done. I can't EVER be good enough, though I've almost killed myself trying. (In your case, quite literally so.) I can never follow Christ's commands the way He calls me to. If this is it, then it's a wash. But what did he mean when he said that? I am in the process of discovering it: forgiveness, and undeserved favor, I think. The Bible says that "all our righteous works are as filthy rags." I approach God and all I can see are the things I didn't say or do and my consistent failure at righteousness. As I am getting to know Christ as a person, not an ideology, and understand that God looks on me and sees only one thing: Christ's perfect sacrifice and holiness, I am truly free. No matter what I do in the future, did in the past, or am doing now, I am forgiven for it. This has been incredibly freeing to me.
Vyckie, I am so sorry for what you've been through and the way the Bible has been twisted and taught to you. I don't have answers why these things happen, but am convinced that the Bible IS truth, in need of carefully handling, studying and applying it in the RIGHT way, where Christ is the core of all of it. I will be praying for you in the midst of this, that He would find you and give this freedom, and show you the real truth apart from lies and manipulation. My heart is with you.
-Heather
Saturday, March 14, 2009
diane said...
You are a feminist. It is not a bad word.
When the realization of how you were duped and how the very structure of patriarchy works to snuff the life out of children and women became crystal clear, you became angry. Anger is not a sin. Righteous anger has fueled many positive changes in the world, and you are a movement for positive change.
I saw my mother suffer throughout my childhood and swore I would never suffer the same fate. I have been a feminist since I was 18 years old. I am married with 2 children and adopted a child with disabilities. I am now 57 years old. Life has not been perfect, but it has been good. My two birth children have grown into strong and caring adults, who see the world as a place where everyone has equal value and equal rights. My disabled daughter still suffers from her early years in which she witnessed domestic violence and in which she suffered child abuse.
Your children are watching and they will gain insight and wisdom from the strength you had to walk away from that destructive environment. It took a lot of guts, and I commend you.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Victoria Rose said...
Vyckie:
I think you're incredibly brave to leave such an oppressive and abusive environment. It's not easy, and you're lucky to have the support system that you do.
If you're interested in learning how the Bible came to be the way it is today, I have an author you might want to read. His name is Bart Ehrman, and he's written such books as "Lost Christianities" and "Misquoting Jesus." He's an eminent Bible scholar who, through thorough study, examination, and textual criticism of the Bible, uncovered the many and varied human origins of the Bible we know today.
You do sound like an angry feminist. You have every right to be angry after all that was done to you, and feminism is nothing more than the idea that women matter just as much as men. But bitch? Absolutely not! You're so used to being subjugated that you're not comfortable yet expressing your true opinions. That and right now you're still reeling, so of course you're going to sound bitter. It's only natural. Time and achieving your own self-realization will help take the edge off.
More power to you.
Good luck!
~ Victoria
@}'-,--'--,---'-----
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
Wow, what can be said? However, your group was far beyond a Fundamental group. Fundamentalist Christians believe in Five Doctrinal Fundamentals of the Faith. There is nothing in there about having so many babies that it kills you. Nor is there anything there about husbands treating their wives as cattle.
The group you were with obviously took some of the stories in the Old Testament and made up a new religious system. It is wrong and sinful to do this.
I go to a "Fundamental" Baptist church and I don't know a soul there who believes this way or treats their wife in this manner. If they saw someone doing this, they would refute this behavior and those attitude with scriptures.
I'm sorry this happened to you. And although I know you doubt the existence of God, I will pray for healing for you. (I hope you are not offended). It angers me when men/women twist and pervert the word of God for their own sinful purpose.
Go in peace.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
Thank you so much for writting this. I hope you help many other families struggling.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
dee said...
Vyckie,
I believe we corresponded over a couple of weeks in the spring of 2007 while you were struggling with many of these issues. I felt a connection to you and a compassion for your searching soul. I am so happy to read your blog and to know that your search has led you to this place. I am sure it is not an easy place to be but it seems to me that it is the place that God has led you to. God is at work in you.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
Vyckie,
I just came over here from a site called True Womanhood where we've discussed this movement quite a lot.
I want you to know that much of what you said in this post resounds with me. I am not a "quivering" mother myself, but come from a large quiverfull family, in which I experienced much of what you talk about. It took courage for me to step out of my beliefs that I MUST have as many children as possible and that birth control is sinful. It's taking a lot of courage to embrace the truth that maybe my parents (and my husband's parents) are not always right after all, and that God gave me a brain for me to use it.
Have you ever heard of Don Francisco? You can listen to his music at this site
www.rockymountainministry.orgGo to mp3s on the left hand column.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Arietty said...
Vicki I am very happy to read that you are out of the closet!! LOL.. you might remember me, I wrote to you about my own children's adjustment once we left the patriarchy on a forum of Cheryl's. I am just thrilled to read this blog!!
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
Please check out the following Christian egalitarian websites. You may find some answers there:
www.cbeinternational.org/new/index.shtmlwww.equalitycentral.comand
www.geocities.com/about_biblical_equality/index.htmPlease especially go to
www.equalitycentral.com. There are a lot of Christians there who believe in complete equality for women. They would love to discuss the issue with you.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
Vickie,
You need to learn about the Christian egalitarian movement. These Christians do not put women under the authority of men in either the home or the church. And yet they are true God-fearing Christians.
I'm glad you shared your story. There are Christian women from all shades of male domination who are re-thinking the male female relationship.
I understtand that you are an atheist now. The teaching of male authority over women has led many women to atheism. But you don't have to stay there. There is help in Christian egalitarianism.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
adventuresinmercy said...
I am extracating myself from this lifestyle (you may remember me from MOMYS as "Molly in Alaska."
I love God. Still. *smile* But the rest of it is in the dumpster. In much the same way, I just can't believe I ever bought into it in the first place. What damage it has done to my life. What horrible damage...
Our stories sound much alike, only I stopped after child #5. Good for you on speaking out. Keep it up. Yours is a voice that needs to be heard.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
abe said...
For some links to Christian egalitarianism:
www.cbeinternational.orgwww.equalitycentral.comwww.geocities.com/about_biblical_equality/index.htmCheck these out. I think you will enjoy them.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Anonymous said...
I came over from the Salon.com article . . . it must have been difficult for you, seeing as how faith was so beneficial for you as a teenager, to leave this movement behind. It sounds like you did the right thing for you and your children, though. I hope you can find a community, either a faith community or some other community based on common interests, that you can feel a part of again.
It frightens me how much fundamentalist Christianity is tied into men's supremacy and into war. And how psychologically damaging to be producing a lot of children in the case of a holy war. I know that is not why mothers have children, no matter what their husbands or their church leaders ask them to do.
I was raised in a moderate Catholic household and had lots of friends who were Lutherans and Methodists. I think if it's important to you to be a part of a faith community, you can find one that does not ask you to subvert your humanity so much. I personally am not religious at all any more, and sometimes I am even an angry feminist bitch, LOL, but I can understand why people enjoy faith communities. And most of the people of faith that I know, even the old school Catholics who had a lot of kids, would read this article and tell you that's not the God they know.
Good luck to both of you women and all of your children. You are good examples to your children whether they know it or not. They are Americans and they should have choices.
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Sarah C. said...
Bravo! I am glad to see that someone who was as hardcore can repent
and even offer a mea culpa for it. It goes to show that the mind, once expanded will never return to its original shape.
I have had a hard time struggling with faith in general for the last 5 years. I am not sure I am a whole-hearted atheist just yet but I feel pretty secure in saying that much of the Christian dogma here in the U.S. is unreasonable. It's not consistent to expect half of all human beings to be nothing but baby ranchers and the other gets to do and be whatever they want. Female benefactors who carry the whole system on their backs are being punished when the system stops functioning because we are not meant to give birth continually or be slaves to bad ideas (no matter how good our intentions were!). Our bodies- and spirits- will die. If all women were just baby incubators, we certainly would not have been given- or by analysis "evolved to have"- wonderful thinking and reasoning brains learning and creating good and bad ideas. Humans developed into complex and adaptive beings that cannot be stuffed into one idea or expected to live as slaves to a broken idea. Humans, men and women, were meant to be partners and companions.
Good luck to you. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself and your struggle.
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Gary Dean Purifory said...
Hi Vyckie,
Your decision to leave quiverfull can only be characterized as a liberation, not an apostasy. Your story is a very interesting and powerful one, and should be told as often as possible. I'd never heard of quiverfull, until I read your article on salon. Best wishes, and much success to you and Laura.
Sincerely,
Gary Purifory
The Investigators Report
Sunday, March 15, 2009
CaeruleanXII said...
Vyckie,
My heart goes out to you after hearing about what life was like in that movement.
Guilt has always been one of the primary tools of religion, but don't give into it. You are doing the RIGHT thing by yourself and your children now. Despite the fact that I am not a Christian (though I used to be), one thing I recall that Jesus said (that I agree with) was that we were to love our neighbors AS OURSELVES. You yourself are a worthy recipient of your own love as others are. Self-abnegation is not a good or holy thing, it is an unnatural thing that serves no good purpose.
Your finding freedom from this oppressive group will help others. Good luck with everything, and thank you for sharing your story publicly. You're an inspiration.
Michael Riggs
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Phil said...
Bravo and congratulations on your liberation. One thing I'd like to comment on from previous comments is this whole "Christianity to Hebrew G-d" relationship. Christianity has as much to do with the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as Satanism has to do with Christianity. Sure Christianity is kind of an offshoot of Judaism (though it has more to do with Roman and Persian pagan cults that with HaShem Ha Kadosh Baruch-hu) just like Satanism is an offshoot of Christiantiy.
Have you ever noticed how most the great feminist thinkers, strong, independent women in business, culture and politics are Jewish? Does this jive with the Christian perception of what a woman is or should be? Perhaps it's because the Christians got it wrong and they're still laboring under Roman cultural mores.
BTW, my mom and my family was a victim of the Christian male supremacist theology in the 1970's and I can trace everything wrong with our relationships with each other and with our own families back to the Mustard Seed church in Lawrence, KS.
My only advice as a survivor is to be good to yourself and to your children and never blame yourself for the pain inflicted on you. And if you can, don't abandon G-d. Try to find your own relationship with G-d untainted by the agendas of the men who wrote the bible. If you can't, I completely understand. It took me 12 years before I could even start that process.
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Holly Peterson said...
Thanks for sharing your story. I don't think people realize how so many women (and men) have been carried away little by little to this oppressive way of thinking.
The new wave I've noticed is the "Stay at Home Daughter." Google it, and you'll find young women who plan never to attend college but to "serve their father's (that's earthly dad not God)vision until he releases her to the man she will marry and then birth many children with.
I homeschool but I homeschool with people who wish to throw off the bonds of slavery of all kinds and to learn in freedom. But it sometimes can get hard to find people like that because the Quiverfull, HSLDA, Vision Forum, Bottkins, Above Rubies people are so effective at what they do.
They basically paint a portrait of a utopia where if you do A and B, then C is sure to follow. And if it doesn't, then you did it wrong.
I agree that it tends to be the women who for some reason want to impose this on their families. And not only that, it seems to be the "bruised" women who came from either really difficult backgrounds or who "sinned" a lot and want something different.
As Cheryl Lindsay Seelhoff says on her blog at Womensspace, many women wish to have a lot of children or perhaps see how unhealthy many parts of the American life are. They trade off their freedom for security and a utopian vision. So they get what they want or think they want (kids, safety, a big garden, life in nature, Little House on the Prairie) and then when they get it... they realize that they've made the bed and now.... they have to lie in it for a really really really long time.
Why is the intensity growing among fundamentalists?
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Al Barger said...
Miss Vyckie- From this testimony at least, I would take you as a brave and virtuous woman. That's partly from the long efforts at leading a proper Christian life as you understood it.
But even more so, I salute your bravery and intellectual integrity in ultimately choosing to recognize the stick of harsh reality disproving your deepest convictions. Changing your mind on that level is tough.
But if there is a God, the main thing he gave us is our brains and our advanced abilities to think and understand. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, if there is a God, he must surely be better pleased with honest doubt and questioning rather than shutting down our minds in blind adherence to any dogma.
Indeed, I would recommend to you the Kevin Smith movie Dogma - though it would be far outside of the range of things likely considered acceptable in a fundamentalist faith. Despite some of the language and such though, Smith is a serious Christian. The movie works past dope and poo jokes to make a point about how even a very good idea can become a terribly destructive dogma.
Hang in there. You're strong, and you've still got your compass set on the straight and true. You'll be alright.
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Becky said...
So sorry to hear of your traumatic experience. Please don't paint all "fundamentalists" like the group you experienced. I grew up in "fundamental Baptist" churches and didn't know anyone who lived like you have described.
There has always been a radical side to the home school movement. I think it goes with the territory.
My advice would be to not throw out the baby with the bathwater! You'll have to decide what you really do believe in eventually. To not believe in anything, is, after all, a belief system!
I've never read the magazines you've quoted, or attended a conference you've mentioned. I've heard of them, though.
We will pray for you as your journey to truth. Remember that not all "fundamentalists" are as weird as your group was. Many would love you as you are, warts and all--even if you yelled at your kids once in a while!
I'll bookmark this blog and come back and read from time to time.
I found it as a result of the FFF
www.fundamentalforums.com/Where I went to college (A Christian one), we were taught "Let your moderation be known until all men". It sounds like the opposite of this group's motto!
Sigh. It is too bad that too often the "weird" is the "norm" among us Christians.
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Anonymous said...
Wow-- I am very moved by the honesty in this post. You are an incredibly brave woman to have been able to face every thing with such clairty. Hats off to you and best wishes for your future happiness and that of your children!
-- Laurie
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Jadehawk said...
This letter is such a great feat of bravery! I grew up in a mildly Catholic home so I've never known this kind of brainwashing, and therefore cannot imagine how hard it must be to realize everything you believed and lived for so long is totally wrong... you're a very strong, brave woman! And I wish you best of luck in your future. It still won't be easy all on your own, but freedom is worth it, for you and for your children!
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Jadehawk said...
you're a strong and brave woman, for extricating yourself out of such a brainwashed, suppressive cult! I wish you all the strength to be yourself oand go your own path. It won't necessarily be easy, (having to always think for yourself does get exhausting and headache-inducing sometimes!) but at least it will be YOUR life. I wish you all the strength not to fall back and give up on your newfound freedom from religion. it is worth it!
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Paul Wright said...
I'm an ex-Christian (I'd now describe myself as an atheist), though my story is nothing like as amazing as yours. Kudos on waking up and getting out.
As others have said, there are forms of Christianity which aren't as crazy as the kind you came out of. I'd still say they weren't true, which is what mattered to me as an evangelical and what matters now.
Have you connected with other ex-Christians on the net? There's a lot of support out there: de-conversion.com is one place where people share their stories.
All the best to you both,
Paul
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Cindy said...
Vyckie,
I did not see a way to contact you here and I would like to ask permission to put this entire post on my own blog. There are a few excerpts I could use, but I don't want to loose any of the impact of the whole piece in the process. Could you contact me?
undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2007/02/contact-cindy-at-under-much-grace.htmlCindy K
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Anonymous said...
Hello from another Salon visitor.
Congratulations on stepping out into the sunlight of free thought, and thanks for sharing such a fascinating story. I'm looking forward to hearing more about your correspondence with your uncle.
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Kristine said...
Thank you for your story. It makes me want to cry. I commend you for your courage and honesty. Hopefully others can find their way, too, inspired by you.
Whenever I'm troubled I reconnect with nature when I can. There is something about nature that is nothing like the dog-eat-dog little "ecosystem" that we gossipy humans create for ourselves. The wilderness and its animals don't care what you look like, if you're over- or underweight, what your IQ/SAT score is, all the little things I do that make me feel like Inspector Cluseau. I love music as well, and literature. I hope that you can now take some time for yourself and connect with things that you enjoy.
As I always say to people, I don't tell anyone to follow my path (atheist) - follow your own, discover your own questions, and strive to become yourself. Everybody else is already trying to be everybody else (in various forms) - you are the only one who can give yourself and your talents to the world. Best wishes to you.
Sunday, March 15, 2009
chuck said...
Self exaltation is self condemnation. You will learn this, if not now, later.
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Jessu said...
I know I'm late to the comment party here, but here's my two yen:
Pulling out of an organization like that requires a supreme effort of will and a great deal of psychological grit to pull off. You're losing your old friends, beliefs, and identity in general. I think there is a tendency to read this kind of story as a "triumph for reason," which is fine- but I think that the emotional implications are even heavier than the rational ones, and I applaud you for having the strength to take that step.
Sunday, March 15, 2009
Efrique said...
Thank you so much for sharing that.
I don't think you sound like Karl Marx, nor like an angry feminist bitch (yes, you sound like someone who wants a fair deal - and if that's feminism then maybe it applies - but what's wrong with that?) - most certainly not a bitch.
The truth is, not all men are cut out for leadership in the home or church.
Indeed not. I try hard to be a good father to my children, but I am very glad that their mother is there to tell me in very clear terms when she thinks I'm wrong. I would not be a better person (and certainly not a better parent) if she was not so forthcoming. I am very far from perfect, and so is she. We're both more effective parents with the full partnership of the other. None of us are above criticism, and no man - no person - should be highly revered - and certainly not just for being male (what a horrible thing!).
We have two wonderful, kind, loving children, brimming over with personality and creativity, but it takes the combined effort of both of us to deal with everything that comes with trying to raise them. I have no idea how you even begin to manage with a large family, even in the best of circumstances (and it sounds like yours were far from best).
Thank you. You have my congratulations on taking a stand. It must have been a very difficult thing to do. All the best.
Monday, March 16, 2009
Leigh Williams said...
Oh, my dear, what a brave woman you are! I came here from a link from Laurie on the Pharyngula blog, but I will check out the Salon article next.
I myself am a liberal Christian, but my oldest daughter has been attracted to the Quiverfull heresy, so I try to keep tabs on it.
I am sickened by the way women-hating men have twisted Jesus's message. One of the things that is clear about His ministry is that He deeply valued women as people. Not only in the story of Mary and Martha, but in all His interactions with women, He demonstrated the egalitarian values we now call feminism. His apostles Junia and Mary of Magdala and all His female followers, who travelled with Him around Judea, were as important to spreading His message as any of his male disciples. Remember that He appeared to the WOMEN first after the crucifixion. Remember also that WOMEN were the heads of many of the churches Paul planted, and Paul wrote to them with respect and high regard. (The anti-feminist messages found in some of the putative Pauline epistles are later interpolations, according to many scholars, and in my study of the New Testament I have come to fully agree with them.)
So call yourself a feminist proudly and loudly. In so doing, your are fully embracing the Christ's own values. Let me recommend the valuable study called "Women in the Heart of God" (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/femalex.html). I think you will find it very enlightening.
Let me also point out that the Quiverfull heretics have twisted and misinterpreted the meaning of Proverbs 31. In fact, they've ignored the plain sense of the poem. There are 7 verses in this poem that celebrate the Virtuous Woman as the chatelaine of a household, a homemaker. There are also 7 verses that celebrate her as a BUSINESSWOMAN. Don't tell me that someone out buying real estate on her own and running a profitable business in textiles is what we'd call today a housewife, carefully protected by her husband from "the world"! That's just absurd! The Proverbs 31 woman is fully engaged as an autonomous individual both inside and outside her home.
I am infuriated by the patriarchy's appropriation of this poem, which above all others in the Bible celebrates the full lives and value of women, for their deceitful and dominionist political agenda.
All this to say, I wish you all the best in your new spiritual journey. But if your heart turns back to the faith, please know that in Christ there is a place for the complete woman, valued by Him for her mind, body, and soul, in complete spiritual freedom and equal to all other human beings.
Thank you for your testimony, which must have been excruciating to live and to write. Embrace the spiritual gift of Prophecy, and continue to speak Truth to the power of the Quiverfull heresy. You'll be in my prayers.
"Her children rise up and call her blessed . . . Many women have done noble things, but you surpass them all."
Monday, March 16, 2009
Anonymous said...
I just wanted to say, reading this, that you are a very brave person. I can't believe the amount of anguish you've been through, and I am so glad you can find a way out of it, and maybe find some happiness for yourself.
I cannot believe that women read the bible and not understand, as you do now, how it was written by men, not divine or otherwise, just men with a vested interest in keeping everybody in their 'place'. Leigh Williams, above...just read Vyckie's account of her life..and realise as she does that biblical interpretation does NOT favour women in any way...in all cases in the bible women are below animals in the eyes of so called god.
Don't equivocate, wake up!
Once again Vyckie, you are incredibly brave and I wish you all the happiness you deserve.
Welcome to Reason!
Monday, March 16, 2009
Leigh Williams said...
Well, no, I don't agree that "in all cases in the bible women are below animals in the eyes of God". In fact, I can't see anything like that in the New Testament. And it's hard to make that argument in the face of Proverbs 31, either.
Of course, I am not of the literalist, inerrant crowd either. As a liberal Christian, I use the historical critical method of approaching Biblical study. A good explanation of the problematic passages in the New Testament can be found here:
www.religioustolerance.org/nfe_bibl.htmAnd I do think the church has been retreating from the radical egalitarianism espoused by Jesus and Paul for at least 1900 of the years since they were on earth. That retreat was fueled by patriarchy and ratified by cultural and intellectual cowards. Shame on the church, then . . . but freedom from patriarchy (and many other social ills) was Jesus's message. We shouldn't let the distortion and outright mangling of that message stand unchallenged. We Christians need to do all we can to stamp it out. It's a heresy.
Monday, March 16, 2009
Anonymous said...
Beautiful post. I was raised in a lenient Catholic household, and the other Catholic children I saw were truly brainwashed. Even at a very young age I realized that the Bible isn't as easily applicable to current daily lives as it was 2000 years ago. Welcome to the new coming - one of tolerance, understanding, and change.
Welcome.
Monday, March 16, 2009
Anonymous said...
Your strength brings teras to my eyes. Thank you for telling your story... even for those of us who can't even begin to understand what you've gone through, just the fact that you made a change and stood up for yourself is inspiring beyond words.
Monday, March 16, 2009
Bob King said...
I came by the Salon.com article and read this - sadly - with recognition from my involvement with the various abuse survival communities.
I call myself a diest or thiest these days, too many things have happened to convince me that there's an absence of God. But that faith and experience tells me something that doesn't seem commonly known in religions:
"Never let your morality get in the way of doing the right thing."
Courage, healing and as is said in the survivor community - "Hugs, if acceptable."
Monday, March 16, 2009
Anonymous said...
I am one of those Quiverfull kids-- the second oldest of 7 and at 22, I'm still reeling from the impacts of this belief system.
While I have always been different and had the courage to protest and Get Out, I feel really sad when I think about my older sister who is 25, married with two kids, and ready to Fight the Fight of being a suppressed, stay-at-home wife and mother.
I admire you. I feel quite lucky to have escaped now when I'm young, and to have the chance to build relationships and a family in an egalitarian manner.
cheers to you!
Tuesday, March 17, 2009
Kelly said...
I found this blog like many others, through Salon (and Skepchick). I wanted to say that I admire you greatly. I have never had to experience the shattering of my world view- I'm sure that had to be a terrifying time in your life. I'm in awe at how you have handled it, despite my lack of religious belief, I'm not sure how I would do in such circumstances, if every rule by which I lived my life turned out to be flawed. It took a great deal of courage on your part, I think.
You and your children are lovely, hang in there, and thank you so much for sharing your story.
-K
Tuesday, March 17, 2009
Richard said...
Awesome post, and congrats on getting out. I just de-converted to agnosticism (from being raised Assembly of God), but fortunately, I didn't really experience anything like this Quiverfull movement during my life. One thing that has occurred to me during my doubts and such, though, is, "I there really is a God, then he's kind of a dick." I mean, there's some cool stuff that happens in the bible, but take, for example, Abraham being asked to *murder* his son. Christians tell this story to their children, for goodness sake, to demonstrate that you should be obedient to God - but nobody ever mentions that if some guy in the present day made preparations to kill his child on the supposed word of God, we'd have him in jail. But in a bible story, it's totally reasonable for God to ask a man to kill his child - and nothing at all is suggested that perhaps a deity that would ask this is perhaps not worth serving.
Tuesday, March 17, 2009
Hopewell said...
No judgment here--very brave post. I just found your blog.You might relate well to my post on the Christian Mother's Version of the Perfect Madness
hopewellmomschoolreborn.blogspot.com/2007/10/christian-mothers-version-of-perfect.htmlTuesday, March 17, 2009
keori said...
Vyckie,
Brava to you for taking this step. It must have been very terrifying at times. I'm proud of you. It's always hard to leave a cult-like environment after decades of indoctrination. Not only does one have to adjust her entire way of living and thinking internally, she must deal with the inevitable rejection and shaming from those who claimed to love her. If she has children, the difficulty is magnified. Well done.
No need to be dissing on feminists, hun - we're the ones who have been saying for centuries that men have no right to treat us the way your husband treated you. Feminism is merely the strange, ridiculous, radical notion that women are people with thoughts, feelings, needs, and rights equal to those of men. And if we're angry - AND WE ARE - it's because for thousands of years men have set us up as a serving class, as property, as LESS THAN THEY ARE, as you have experienced. Welcome to our ranks. Good to have you! If your daughters would like an online forum where they can learn about feminist issues in the context of teen years, I recommend allgirlarmy.org. Check it out and see what you think.
I wish you and your kids all the best as you heal and rebuild.
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
Anonymous said...
Bravo on coming out of the cult. Best wishes and good luck from a happy religion free and child free couple in Seattle.
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
Anonymous said...
I got a taste of this movement myself, never using birth control and homeschooling. However, when I had my third I had such awful post-partum we decided this was not for us. Thankfully, many evangelical Christians have been deeply kind and supportive of our decision and have only helped our own Christian faith strengthen. I am so sorry you have not found the same. Suzie
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
Anonymous said...
The quiverfull movement is NOT Biblical truth, and although there may be some Christian's involved in it, I'm quite sure it is NOT of God either. Remember Satan can appear as an angel of light, and even well meaning people can be deceived. Its sad, so very sad what happened to y'all. Thank goodness you are free of it, praying for your children's escape as well.
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
grandmayume said...
You know what? When I de-converted from the S. Baptist church, I felt duped and bitter, too. I think it is natural and okay. No one likes to feel that they've been fooled and wasted their time.
I found you from the salon article and I am cheering you on! It feels great to look back on all of the stifling things I once believed and realize I don't have to believe it anymore- I'm free! I feel so much healthier and better about myself. I feel less guilty about every little thing and less boxed in. Like me, you followed all the rules and it just didn't work like they said it would. I'm glad you have gotten out and I hope you and your kids have a fun and fulfilling life together- on your own terms!
Thursday, March 19, 2009
Anonymous said...
Others have already said it so well
1) How brave..
2) Not all christians think like this...
but also:
3) We do not have to strive. Receiving Gods forgiveness is to receive Jesus' righteousness, which replaces ours. This is grace, and we can rest in it.
4) Your children are special to God and he loves them. He speaks so strongly against 'any who cause one of these little ones of mine to stumble'. 'He carries the lambs in his arms (them) and will gently lead those who are with young (you)'.
He has given them a special gift in you to be their mother.
Monday, March 23, 2009
Anonymous said...
Wow, Thanks for being brave enough to write this! I also came out of a fundamentalist background. My parents removed us while I was in my late teens and it screwed me up royally for many years. I am only now starting to really grasp what a relationship with God should look like, and how FREE it really can be.
I am married to a man who LOVES me, who doesn't want to have more kids because the last one had me on death's doorstep. He loves kids, but wants me around too. So i can be a Missionary to my two kids, so I can teach them TRUTH, LOVE and how to live a FREE life.
I know your kids are applauding you, I know as they get older they will look back and be ever grateful for a Mom who loved them enough to do the hard thing.
You are a strong, wise, beautiful woman, and I am so glad you "got out"
Monday, March 23, 2009
Anonymous said...
Don't be afraid to be an atheist. All religions are, at their basis, made up by people. Some just have longer traditions than others. Choose a religion based on how it feeds you, not how you feed it. (That will come in time--you will give back with enthusiasm and love, and will receive more than you put in.) Religion should not make you weaker, or sad, or allow you to be abused. Why would you choose that?
If you do not believe in God, you don't. And you don't need to. Hang out with other people who don't. Or who aren't sure. We are out there, all around you.
Wednesday, March 25, 2009
Hypatia said...
This "angry feminist b*tch" is filled with admiration for what you are doing.
As a side note, feminism isn't about anger, hating men, or even hating the patriarchy. It's about loving people as a whole-- enough to recognize that the adversarial way in which men and women relate to one another is deeply flawed and is based on underlying social problems that need to be acknowledged before they can be fixed. There is anger, as there is in all things, but there is more joy.
Thursday, March 26, 2009
Vyckie said...
Thanks so much, Hypatia. I have been thinking about my "angry feminist bitch" comment ~ and that's another thing I want to write about.
Stick with us ~ I'll get it done eventually ;-)
Thursday, March 26, 2009
Anonymous said...
I'm sure this comment has been already been posted, but one more can't hurt.
Please stop apologizing for sounding "bitter and angry" or like "a feminist bitch."
First, you have every right to be bitter and angry. You were used. You admirably found the strength to defy your abusers and you don't owe anyone an apology for being pissed about it.
Secondly, you are a feminist. That's a good thing. It's hard to embrace a title the patriarchs have worked so hard (and successfully) to vilify, I know, but please try. You know why they've crusaded to make it an ugly philosophy - it's a threat to them.
You empowered yourself and you deserve to be proud, not apologetic. I'm sure most of the anger will subside as it's replaced with a deeper understanding and acceptance of your individuality. In the meantime, accept it while you get to know yourself.
Congratulations. You are an incredibly strong person who deserves to experience the world on your terms. Embrace it and enjoy every minute of it.
Friday, March 27, 2009
Luci said...
You are SO BRAVE!!! As a younger woman who was, for a time, quite taken with the public face of Quiverfull - thank you for sharing your story. Your children are SO LUCKY to have such a loving mother. Best wishes to you and your family.
Friday, March 27, 2009
Stew said...
Best wishes to you Vyckie, and to Laura.
Sunday, March 29, 2009
mom2nji said...
Vyckie,
I used to be a member of Above Rubies, I left the group because I just couldn't go for the all or nothing approach to christianity. I was blasted for not being QF, not homeschooling, going back to school, ect. I am still a christian, but have fallen away from the CULT thinking of that group. And believe in SOME of the helpmeet/proverbs 31 wife ideals, but it isnt all or nothing. I dont need to be a slave, to serve the Lord. I just found your blog and am interested to see the rest of your blog.
Monday, March 30, 2009
Vyckie said...
Welcome, mom2nji ~ good to have a fellow "ex~Above Rubies" mom here. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the stories you'll find on this blog.
Monday, March 30, 2009
Pompotous Herdman said...
Holy crap!
I ended up here because vjack
www.atheistrev.com posted about the importance of keeping up on what Xians are doing, and follwed a link from
www.religiousrightwatch.com/I normally deal with Xian stupidity on the scientific and political front, which is bad enough, but the stories on this blog almost made me physically ill -- in this day and age, organized efforts to make women and children behave as property?
Your stories are important, for they show why real Americans (who know that God is not mentioned once in the founding document of our nation, the Constitution) need to zealously protect the separation of church and state. Given the insularity of the movement, I think that few of my fellow atheists know (or realize) exactly how far originally normal people can sink, as is described here, into the acceptance of horror and immorality as normality and ethical behavior.
Thank you for telling your stories.
Monday, March 30, 2009
zarabeth said...
Congratulations on your courage! I am 62 now and had a brief (six months) involvement with fundamentalism in 1977 when I lived in Omaha. I had moved there from Boston, a bastion of liberality where I had a responsible job and a life of my own choosing. I left Boston after losing my parents and chose Omaha because I had friends there.
I was befriended by some fundamentalists and tried to fit in, but never could. They called me an intellectual and made it sound like a curse; they wanted me to stop reading anything but the Bible (I love fantasy and science fiction, which are anathema to them). Since I was single and thus had no male to whom to submit, the church elders took responsibility for me and would call me if I missed a week to make sure that I wasn't backsliding.
I tremble to think what my life would have been like if I had married one of these people. I had friends who had children that were being raised strictly and in cultural isolation; I often wonder how damaged they were in later life. I remember gays who had been "cured" of homosexuality and had married; I also often wonder how much pain those relationships caused. I left the church after 6 months after an incident which blasted me with the hypocrisy of the so-called "love of Christ" that they preached. It was all hollow. The elders kept calling until I eventually moved away from Omaha, but I never went back.
I was born again during this experience and still consider myself a strong Christian. However, I no longer attend church, as I have never found one in which I (as a single woman, albeit with a long-term man in my life who is only vaguely Christian) can feel comfortable. I was raised a Lutheran and still consider myself one, but churches just turn me off.
Stay true to yourself and stay on your journey to find out who you really are. Be strong, and don't be afraid to believe in Jesus if that is where your journey leads. His Word is perverted by many, but He is really all about Love. That's the only thing that counts in life.
Monday, March 30, 2009
Anonymous said...
What a story... amazing. Saw your link attached to a post on an article at Alternet.org interviewing Kathryn Joyce about Quiverfull.
I had a Bob Jones-style fundamentalist upbringing, and I eventually ended up leaving Christianity altogether as a result (or consequence, LOL) of my involvement in a "Bible-based cult." Claiming ownership of my own heart and soul has been a difficult road, but I would not trade it for anything. May peace, happiness and wisdom be yours as you continue moving forward.
P.S. some of my best friends are "Angry Feminist Bitches." :-} I wouldn't trade *them* for anything, either.
Monday, March 30, 2009
Anonymous said...
I grew up in a cult in an abusive household. What I am finding amazing is that there are people still in the cult that live fairly normal lives, normal being what is considered normal by our present culture in the US. I never knew that there were "normal" families within our "religion". I just thought that everyone kowtowed to the leaders like my parents expected us to do.
My point is simply this. Your experiences with your very abusive husband may color your outlook. Others who can balance similar beliefs within a more normal family structure would have a totally different outlook. Even though our church would be considered more of a fundamental church, it is very highly stressed that the husband's role is to love his wife as his own flesh. Women are NOT 2nd class citizens and we are all equal in God's eyes.
We are homeschooling, children not segregated by age, and several other things are similar but I think it is unfair to paint all of us with the same brush. Your abusive husband seems to be a large part of the problem. If the husband was not abusive it would change the whole perception of someone who held beliefs similar to what you once believed...
I was raised in a cult (not the homeschool, quiverfull movement) so I know of what I speak....
Tuesday, March 31, 2009
PLEASE GO BACK UP-THREAD AND POST ANY RESPONSES ~ for housekeeping purposes, I'd like to keep all responses to the original comments in one place ;-)