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Post by tapati on Jul 9, 2009 13:35:11 GMT -5
Logic is not his strong point. If you insist on strictly separate gender roles, taught from an early age, of course women will be uninformed about things that all men should know. How could it be otherwise? I can just imagine his own version of Morton's Demon intervening at this point to say, "Move along. Nothing to see here" before he starts to make the obvious connection. Yes, I was thinking of that. I don't know if his wife grew up in the "movement" or had a regular education, but the logical consequence of this strict gender separation means that your wife will not ever be qualified to do the same work that you do, understand it when you talk about it, or help you effectively if you're under a deadline. Nor can you pinch hit for her effectively if she's sick. I'm a firm believer that even when spouses have a natural inclination towards one marriage-related task, both spouses should know the basics of it. Then you wouldn't have widowers not able to take care of themselves and widows who don't know about finances or basic car maintenance. (Or the reverse, in a gender atypical household.) (Ditto for same-sex specialization. )
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Post by kisekileia on Jul 9, 2009 23:21:48 GMT -5
Tapati, I agree with you about all those things. In the case I mentioned, the parents failed to take their daughter to the hospital in a timely manner because of seriously distorted priorities (dehydrated daughter could wait; church was more important) rather than because they actually opposed medical care (though they might have opposed secular psychiatric care; I'm not sure), but it was still heinously neglectful. I don't think parents should be allowed to deny their children necessary medical care whether for religious or other reasons--I think it's horrible that some locales allow normally prohibited forms of child abuse and neglect when the parents use religion to justify them.
And yes, of course a wife who had only been trained in 'womanly' things wouldn't know about things men were 'supposed to' do!
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autumn
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by autumn on Oct 14, 2009 18:30:31 GMT -5
I'm still mentally reeling from watching the episode where Anna has her baby at home.
I get the impression that it was a planned UC, all they had was the doula, no midwife, Josh caught his daughter.
The reason they gave was that Anna's doctor was out of town so they decided they'd just stay home for the birth. Like it's acceptable to decide at the spur of the moment to do a UC! (Though they seemed to have all the supplies, like you can run to walmart on any given day and get that stuff!)
Unassisted Childbirth (UC) is controversial to begin with. The way this was portrayed seems really irresponsible.
I feel like the camera crew was way intrusive for poor Anna, who takes a bath in labor all wrapped in towels? Then when she delivered she was wearing a pull over shirt that must have made discrete breastfeeding pretty hard to do.
Then to top it off they passed the baby around the camera crew.
I hope I'm not the only person who was upset by the way the birth was portrayed?
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Post by jemand on Oct 14, 2009 20:41:52 GMT -5
WELL, with so many eyes any complication would probably have meant getting to the doctor, at least.
But I think the entire show is too intrusive. But it gets ratings, and they get money... so they do it.
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Post by asteli on Oct 15, 2009 2:14:21 GMT -5
I almost wish I watch the show. The only a doula + supplies sure sounds like a UC to me. Although, UC + camera crew really doesn't compute for me. One of the many reasons I UC is to avoid an audience. I just feel deeply sad for any child born into that family. They do follow Ezzo & probably the Pearls (both used to be mentioned on their web site), both of which advocate corporal punishment from infancy. Add in not being allowed to show your feelings ( www.duggarfamily.com/houseguidelines.html) & I just want to rush in & save the kids.
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Post by Sierra on Oct 15, 2009 10:07:41 GMT -5
I almost wish I watch the show. The only a doula + supplies sure sounds like a UC to me. Although, UC + camera crew really doesn't compute for me. One of the many reasons I UC is to avoid an audience. I just feel deeply sad for any child born into that family. They do follow Ezzo & probably the Pearls (both used to be mentioned on their web site), both of which advocate corporal punishment from infancy. Add in not being allowed to show your feelings ( www.duggarfamily.com/houseguidelines.html) & I just want to rush in & save the kids. Wow. Those house rules are such shit, and it appalls me still more knowing that I grew up believing a lot of that too. 1. Always use soft words, even when you don’t feel well. 2. Always display kind actions and joyful attitudes, even if you have been mistreated. Have the right response by quickly forgiving others in your heart even before they ask.I used to get reprimanded all the time for my "attitude" when I was actually depressed. There's nothing more demoralizing than hating your life and then being told you ought to be cheerful, or having your feelings misinterpreted as some unfounded anger or selfishness. 3. Always be enthusiastic and look for opportunities to praise others' character. 4. Always deflect praise and be grateful to God and others for the ways they have benefited your life.More of that "nothing about you is good, and if someone sees good in you then it's God" crap. Horrid statement. This explicitly sets children up to be abused. Even if you raise an entire community to do this, sooner or later somebody's going to figure out that they can use this to exploit the ones who are honestly trying to follow it. And often this means men exploiting women, church leaders exploiting congregations. Own praise. Take joy in your own accomplishments. Appreciate others' successes while secure in yours. 5. Always use manners and be respectful of others and their belongings. 6. Always do what is right, even when others may not, or when no one is looking.Amusing that respecting property is part of this, given the whole "having everything in common" business on the part of St. Paul. 7. Thank God for how He made you, for what He has given you and everything He allows you to go through. (Romans 8:28)Ironic, given that God made me a woman who must curse her very existence as the inherently corrupt instigator of all humanity's errors and general doormat. 8. Don’t mock or put others down. Develop compassion and pray for others. 9. Never argue, complain, or blame. Quickly admit when you have done wrong and ask for forgiveness (even if you were only 10% at fault). Don't wait till you’re caught. Be sure your sins will find you out. He who covers his sin will not prosper, but he that confesses and forsakes it shall find mercy.All well and good except for the arguing bit. I never learned to argue - if I had, it could have actually saved me a lot of heartache. Because some people will never respect you and give you peace unless you demonstrate that you can stand up to them. The more you cave in and accept responsibility, the more they walk on you. 10. Have a tough accountability/prayer partner to daily share your heart with and to keep you in line (your parents, spouse). The power of sin is in secrecy.This is some scary shit right here. Way to open yourself up to emotional and spiritual manipulation. Especially since I guarantee you they are not asking men to confide in their wives so their wives can "keep them in line." 11. Be attentive and look for ways to serve others with sincere motives and no thought of self-gain. 12. Think pure thoughts (Philippians 4:8, Romans 13:14).Paraphrased: Think what we tell you to think, and never deviate ON PERIL OF YOUR SOUL. 13. Always give a good report of others. Don't gossip! Never tale-bear unless physical harm will come to someone. (Use Matthew 18.)Sorry, but no. I got reprimanded for being a "tattletale" enough times when other children were deliberately mocking or excluding me or destroying my things that when I became a teenager I ceased to report when I was mistreated. This only enabled people to abuse me in worse and worse ways. F**k this rule. I can't begin to explain how detrimental it is to shut down a child's warning system by telling them it's "tattling." Besides, I could always tell it was just the problem child's parent's way of not taking responsibility for the fact their kid was a belligerent ass. 14. Never raise a hand to hit. 15. Never raise a foot to kick. 16. Never raise an object to throw. 17. Never raise a voice to yell. 18. Never raise an eye to scowl.Always scowl at the floor. Avoid eye contact. This demonstrates your submission to everyone. 19. Use one toy/activity at a time. Share! 20. Do your best to keep your surroundings neat, clean and organized. 21. Never let the sun go down on your wrath. (Don’t go to bed angry or guilty) 22. Amendment J.O.Y. - Put Jesus first, Others second, Yourself last.In practice: put the pastor's commands first, let everyone take advantage of you, and offer to polish everyone's shoes with your tongue.
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Post by rosa on Oct 15, 2009 11:17:01 GMT -5
That reminds me - I read Elizabeth Smart's story in People this week and the way she got herself rescued is, she told her captor she had a "strong, strong feeling" that they should be in Salt Lake. That's how People put it - I would bet money she convinced him she had a Testimony about it. She's Mormon, and she'd had to listen to his rantings, and I'm sure she's smart enough to know how to act like an idea came from God in a way that was convincing to that man (who isn't LDS but does base a bunch of his preaching on their scripture).
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