aimai
Full Member
Posts: 172
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Post by aimai on May 29, 2009 16:10:33 GMT -5
I wanted to title a blog post on Liddy:
"If it Bleeds, It Leads...get used to it."
aimai
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Post by AustinAvery on May 29, 2009 16:19:15 GMT -5
That's great! ;D It belongs with the best of the comments at that post, which left me in stitches.
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Post by kisekileia on May 29, 2009 20:10:54 GMT -5
Jemand, it is actually legal for women to go topless in Ontario. A court case ten or fifteen years ago found that it was discriminatory to have different public decency standards for women than for men.
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Post by lucrezaborgia on May 30, 2009 1:29:01 GMT -5
One of the things that had been bothering me so much was the personal guilt that is held over the heads of women for not living up to the "gold standard" of being a totally biblically submissive wife. I was curious and did some research on a blog by a woman supporting this culture and an awful lot of her posts are on how GUILTY she feels for being such a sinner and how it's just so hard to be a warrior for god, while at the same time extolling the virtues of this lifestyle and implying that it's the ONLY way to be truly happy!
Are women supposed to go through life with no independent thoughts of their own? Can they not even think about disagreeing? How can you possible not become a mental basketcase living like that?
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Post by grandmalou on May 30, 2009 11:24:46 GMT -5
One of the things that had been bothering me so much was the personal guilt that is held over the heads of women for not living up to the "gold standard" of being a totally biblically submissive wife. I was curious and did some research on a blog by a woman supporting this culture and an awful lot of her posts are on how GUILTY she feels for being such a sinner and how it's just so hard to be a warrior for god, while at the same time extolling the virtues of this lifestyle and implying that it's the ONLY way to be truly happy! Are women supposed to go through life with no independent thoughts of their own? Can they not even think about disagreeing? How can you possible not become a mental basketcase living like that? Welcome, and thank you for this good post, good questions! Oh, Lucrezaborgia, did you ever hit the nail on the head with this post! It is a good thing when people start asking questions, IMO, because it "trips a trigger" so to speak, and gets people thinking and seeking answers. I remember that Vyckie and her kids (my grandchildren) were allowed ONLY one answer when trying to disagree with their dad... "Yes, Dad..." Period, end of discussion, always and forever. I wanted to SMACK him so BAAAD! I grew up under this kind of control and you would think I'd have recognized it for the abuse that it was...but when a person is around it all their lives, they think it is "normal"...but it's SICK!
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Post by grandmalou on May 30, 2009 11:49:38 GMT -5
Sargassosea: I really enjoyed this post of yours...thanks for it! And you said at the end... "Geez - now it looks like I go around looking for my name so I can yak my yak" LOL You know, I find myself doing this same thing, Sea! Damn, I think we are STILL looking, consciously or unconsciously, for some form of "approval"...whaddaya think?
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Post by AustinAvery on May 30, 2009 15:33:55 GMT -5
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Post by lucrezaborgia on May 30, 2009 17:21:31 GMT -5
Welcome, and thank you for this good post, good questions! Oh, Lucrezaborgia, did you ever hit the nail on the head with this post! It is a good thing when people start asking questions, IMO, because it "trips a trigger" so to speak, and gets people thinking and seeking answers. I remember that Vyckie and her kids (my grandchildren) were allowed ONLY one answer when trying to disagree with their dad... "Yes, Dad..." Period, end of discussion, always and forever. I wanted to SMACK him so BAAAD! I grew up under this kind of control and you would think I'd have recognized it for the abuse that it was...but when a person is around it all their lives, they think it is "normal"...but it's SICK! It reminds me of the FLDS admonition to the women to always "be sweet". It's not natural to hold in your anger and other emotions all the time. It IS natural to have independent thoughts and feelings and concerns. Are you a sinner just for thinking these negative thoughts because that shows that your heart is not with god? Another thing that bothers me on pro-patriarchy blogs is how their children, especially female children, are portrayed as being protected and loved and encouraged to grow as people. Doesn't that set them up for failure down the road when they find out that they have to submit every part of themselves, even their thoughts, to unquestioning patriarchy?
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Post by grandmalou on May 30, 2009 17:45:06 GMT -5
Lucreziaborgia, you said:
"It reminds me of the FLDS admonition to the women to always "be sweet". It's not natural to hold in your anger and other emotions all the time. It IS natural to have independent thoughts and feelings and concerns. Are you a sinner just for thinking these negative thoughts because that shows that your heart is not with god?
Another thing that bothers me on pro-patriarchy blogs is how their children, especially female children, are portrayed as being protected and loved and encouraged to grow as people. Doesn't that set them up for failure down the road when they find out that they have to submit every part of themselves, even their thoughts, to unquestioning patriarchy?"
Oh, absolutely! It is a heart-breaking thing to see, and to live through...when such a one finally escapes this kind of control, that person suddenly finds themselves thrust out into a world totally unprepared for anything...not decision making, nothing! My own father was not part of my life until just a few years before he passed, so the control was not patriarchal. Oh...I have to sort of take that back...I had far too many patriarchal types in my life, not Christian ones, but with a controlling mindset. But control is control, no matter how it comes at you. The easiest way I can sum up most of my life up until about 20 years ago, was feeling "like somebody hit me over the head with a dead rabbit..." I was damned if I did, damned if I didn't...to the point where it seemed there really was no way out.
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Post by arietty on Jun 1, 2009 0:49:24 GMT -5
The way Kirk got out of the No-Win Scenario was to "change the parameters", a move labeled cheating by those in authority over him.
Vyckie you did make choices to give up your self and be submissive, choices within the parameters of your belief system. You made them freely and intelligently, at least to begin with. I know you did because I've read your story and I've been there too--a berean. However the parameters of that belief system make it very hard, once you've stepped forward in these choices, to veer to the left or right. The narrow path blah blah.. Personally I can say that while I made free choices towards my own oppression once I had signed that contract of belief I lived in fear of breaking it. The "tragedy" of divorce, condemnation, HELL.. gee there were a lot of reasons to keep choosing for oppression. And yes I agree, I (we) did choose that freely to a certain extent. But as is classically the case in any cult it's an easy (and well-stroked) choice to walk in and an earth shattering choice to walk out.
I only got out by changing the parameters. Kirk reprogrammed a computer and I reprogrammed myself. I had to walk away from my fear of the divorce meme, my fear of hell and my belief in the biblical god as he had been presented to me. While it was very hard to get out financially and practically it was the mental imprisonment within that belief system that was the real obstacle. Get rid of that belief system and the bars vanished and I can say truthfully the practical matters were almost a joy to work out in comparison.
And yes, this was labeled "cheating" by the authorities. An apt analogy in so many ways!
So I think there are a few layers to the matter of choices and free will. As the cult support groups say, "No one chooses to join a cult". And no, I didn't choose to join an oppressive belief system that would stymie my freedoms and suck the live out of my personality all in the name of Jesus (poor Jesus). It really didn't look like that at the beginning, it merely looked like putting other people first because love was the greatest reality in this world.
*sigh*
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Post by tsudhonimh on Sept 3, 2009 17:32:14 GMT -5
I'm still reading - as a non-Christian this is truly alien ground because I don't have the reference points most of you do. But when I read something like this, I think I get it. " it’s the perfect unwinnable set-up in which Laura was given the responsibility for producing 6 loaves of homemade bread every other day ~ and yet, she was denied the authority to decide precisely HOW to get the job done." Giving people responsibility without the authority that they need to carry out the responsibility is well known to be counterproductive. articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-10878_11-1046495.html in business rebirthofreason.com/Articles/jj/Responsibility_without_Authority_An_Incredible_Injustice.shtml Being given responsibility without authority can breed a sense of helplessness, frustration, humiliation and despair, but never a sense empowerment.I look at that Proverbs 31 woman and I don't see anything about her husband making decisions for her, or her getting approval and permission: She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard. She's managing her large and productive household the way Bronze Age women did - those who were the chief wife of a wealthy man anyway. She knows what she's doing, she's not double-checking with him about how much wool and flax to buy, what to price her linens at, or whether or not to buy that field. He trusts her to use her brain and do well by him. That's her role, and it's esteemed by the community. “Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.” C.S. Lewis “This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.” Plato
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