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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 9, 2009 16:48:08 GMT -5
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Post by decamom on Jul 9, 2009 16:55:42 GMT -5
A hearty AMEN from me Vyckie! I too have seen your kids blossom and grow as they try to figure out life in the real world. It is wonderful and challenging for you but I am so glad you have a positive outlook on it. Things could be worse....you could be in my shoes! I love your kids... Laura
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jo
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by jo on Jul 9, 2009 17:59:31 GMT -5
When I was 17, I was raped and became pregnant from that rape. I was sent away because of the shame it caused my parents and the fact that their world would not look perfect anymore. They sent me to an unwed mother's home. Thankfully, other relatives rescued me from that nightmare.
But, my abandonment was the beginning of my personal escape.
I've found myself and worked SO hard to raise my own children differently that I forgot the oppression I lived under for so long.
My children have no concept of that world. It drives DH crazy that I allow them to argue with me, that I honor the question why with an answer, that I respect them automatically and expect the same of them. But, even in me, I have seen relaxation as I move further and further out of that world.
Children are an amazing blessing. I have 8 of them, and I don't regret them at all, not even the surprises that knocked me off my feet initially. But, large families are chaos. Its the only way to honorable meld all the personalities. The reality is that compliant children will comply to the rigor and demands of that world, and the spirited children will fight every step of the way until they either self destruct or escape. When I became a mother and my mother started trying to 'teach' me how to break her spirit, I realized I didn't want to break her. I merely wanted to survive her childhood with her own sense of self intact as an adult. Doing that for a bunch of kids is exhausting. But, its also exhilirating.
And, you're right, children are a tremendous blessing, whether you believe in a specific religion or not, children are still a blessing for all of us.
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 9, 2009 18:50:20 GMT -5
As the grandmother of 7 blessings, I want to throw in a couple of comments... WOW! I remember when"Wiggins" was in residence, the few times I was allowed to stick around and visit the kids (oops...lambs LOL) were so quiet, once I remarked "Your kids spoil me for other kid visits...they are all so well-behaved that others seem like monsters, and a few minutes with them makes me want to run away." I didn't realize, at that time, that the ones we knew who were 'misbehaving' were being normal kids! And kids make noise! It is a total delight to me now to be able to interact with each one and see the personalities develop! Examples...Angel is just blossoming on her own, still maintaining a 4.0 in college, although out for the summer and working to save up for the coming semesters...I am so proud of her. Chasse' is at a giggly age! Oh, joy! So after her surgery I was helping her get dressed after a bath and we got to giggling so hard we couldn't do anything at all! Both holding our sides. Then Grandpa and I went to Aurora the other day to bring Berea home...she had been visiting some of her cousins down that direction. She and I chatted happily all the way home to Norfolk...about a 2 hour drive? Hour and a half? And thoroughly enjoyed each other's company! And Hazelle and I had a bit of a disagreement with about a week ago, and after I explained that her tone had hurt my feelings because I felt so left out of all of their lives, for so long, I could tell she really sincerely was sorry and we hugged and it was quickly forgotten. Andrew is becoming a bubbly, outgoing, athletic clown...but very gentlemanly. Wesley is so happy-go-lucky now, and used to be quite whiney. Lydia has been vaccinated with a phonograph needle...oy, vey! People used to say that about me. Scary! But she's a cutie! When I was rounding up depositions around their neighborhood before Vyckie's custody hearing, one neighbor told me he had often seen all the little ones (all 7) just standing in the yard. Robot-like...watching "the others" running and laughing and playing and he felt sorry for them, as they were not allowed to leave the yard or invite "them" over for play time. He said once he saw Warren yelling at some neighbor kids and telling them to "Get away from here..." and saw him turn the water hose on them. Said he never saw Vyckie outside at all. Sad.
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linnea
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Post by linnea on Jul 9, 2009 22:44:06 GMT -5
Hey! It's Laura, posting!!!
I hope you are hanging in there and will tell more of your story when you feel able.
(((Hugs)))
And jo, the more you tell of your story, the more glad I am that you escaped!
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Post by arietty on Jul 10, 2009 6:50:23 GMT -5
OH Vyckie, LOVELY post. All of it so familiar!! It is truly amazing to see them blossom as individuals and to be a parent that respects and actually enjoys that. As I've posted before mine had a similar transition, lots of anger and acting out initially for some.
You said, "Just seeing the difference in my children (not only Andrew ~ they are all doing remarkably well) makes it totally worth the trouble ~ and in fact, I can see now that it is no trouble at all ~ single parenthood is EASY compared to living in the oppressive, crazy-making atmosphere ~ the prison which our home used to be."
SO TRUE. This was another thing that didn't help my status with my former church, my stating boldly and clearly that being a single mom was a thousand times easier than living under the oppressive hell that was my ex. People would ask about finances and I'd say, "it's GREAT! It's much much better being poor because you don't have money rather than poor because one person spends it all on themselves and refuses to provide." And on and on..
My ex used to force the kids to all sit on the couch while he screamed and raged at them, redfaced and absolutely terrifying, trying to get one of them to confess to some transgression. No one was allowed up until someone had confessed and this could go on all afternoon. The transgression was always something we would not even notice now. Yes they learned well to be little mice.
My older ones often reflect on these things with the younger ones.. "we were never allowed to wear nail polish, you don't know how lucky you are.." and many other things. Some very terrible things.
I know I have a great appreciation of the joy and responsibility to nurture my children as individuals. Frankly the more christian people are, as in the more "but not of the world" they are the less likely it is they will want this for their own families. I run into it all the time with christian moms I know, they often express worry and dismay at their kids wearing weird clothes or listening to "dubious" music or any manner of things. The subtext is always there, they would prefer their kids to project a wholesome christian image. Yet every time they choose to roll their eyes or tut their tongue rather than celebrating their children's taste it is a missed opportunity to really connect with that child.
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Post by arietty on Jul 10, 2009 6:57:58 GMT -5
When I became a mother and my mother started trying to 'teach' me how to break her spirit, I realized I didn't want to break her. I merely wanted to survive her childhood with her own sense of self intact as an adult. Doing that for a bunch of kids is exhausting. But, its also exhilirating. My MIL actually boasts about how she "broke her children's will". I believe this was in a Dobson book that was popular at one point though I guess it is an older idea than that. When she first saw my then 2 year old having a tantrum she nodded her head and said, "that is his sin nature coming out.." Makes me sick. Her children spent a long time trying to reclaim their wills, one in particular still felt she needed her mother's approval for everything into her 30's. Horrible. Now when my current 2 year old is screaming, "IT'S MIIIIIINE!!!!" and my older kids ask why she is being so horrible I tell them she is developing her understanding of property rights. Prior to this age everything was just THERE, now she suddenly gets that some things belong to individuals and she is an individual..! And it's very exciting and frustrating! This is just as important a lesson as sharing, it's a part of normal development but it would be looked upon as selfishness and sin by many. Something to "train" out of them (like they were dogs, UGH.. and don't get me started on the Pearls.)
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Post by sargassosea on Jul 10, 2009 8:00:28 GMT -5
Did somebody actually question your commitment to your kids!? ::Sea donning butt-kicking boots:: Let me at 'em! Really, though, if someone did they must have wicked-bad comprehension skills... And - with zero intent to derail - the recurring theme of respecting our children as individual human beings (radical thinking, ladies!) is so wonderful and dare I say: unschool-y. It can be very difficult for worldly parents to raise their children this way (radical!) so I can barely imagine what it must be like for the 'not-sparing-the-rod crowd' to witness your acknowledgment of your kids' person-hood. Extremely threatening, I should think.
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Post by hopewell on Jul 10, 2009 8:35:36 GMT -5
" single parenthood is EASY compared to living in the oppressive, crazy-making atmosphere ~ the prison which our home used to be"
As a single parent thru adoption, I am always stunned at the CRAP women will take, even true abuse, just to keep their kids in a 2 parent home! I agree that MOST OF THE TIME at two parent home is best, but not always. Your kids show that beautifully in their reactions to their "new" loving freedom!
And, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the verse say: "Train up a child in the way he should go: and WHEN HE IS OLD, he will not depart from it"?? I don't see the part where "training" immediately takes effect and saves us from teenagers!! lol....
My kids lived with abuse before adoption, and sometimes I feel I was abusive in just learning to be a parent to a 7 and 8 year old--their previous trauma was often hell to deal with. I know first hand the comfort you feel in seeing your kids express an opinion! I have had to deal with the opposite problem--a boy who'd never had ANY rules, structure, routine, etc until age 7 when he entered an orphanage. Happily, my daughter had been "parented" a little more by their mother and the caregivers in the orphanage. I appreciate that children do need NORMAL "guidance" like "don't hit" and that there are time when a look from Mom SHOULD be able to stop ANYTHING!! lol.... I don't agree with Rick Boyer's "basic German Shepard" training and am happy to see even Michael Pearl saying his kids were maybe even a little "too sheltered." I have taken bits and pieces from the Pearls, from Dr Spock, from other parents and even therapy to help my son gain some ability to respect authority.
Anyhoo, verying off on a tangent here..... Great post and sounds like you have kids worth knowing!
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Post by tapati on Jul 10, 2009 9:26:48 GMT -5
I think it was an excellent idea to present this balancing article and demonstrate that you do wholeheartedly appreciate every one of your children and don't regret having them. I can see how some would jump to that conclusion, especially with us having topics here questioning whether every QF family is ready to have and financially support and raise many children while giving them everything they truly need.
I was a little confused by the initials Q.D. and looked for where you introduced it but couldn't find it. Perhaps I'm not the only one?
The real blessing is that your children have a chance to blossom and be children, rather than grim little adults trying to conform.
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Post by arietty on Jul 10, 2009 9:51:28 GMT -5
I assumed Q.D. meant Quivering Days.. but I did have to think about it.
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Post by anatheist on Jul 10, 2009 12:52:23 GMT -5
Vyckie, you said that sometimes your children's anger was directed at you. Am I correct in assuming that they have some resentment for how you pushed them into the Quiverful lifestyle in the past? How are you dealing with that?
I'm coming at this question from the perspective of the child rather than the parent. Now, my situation is somewhat different than that of your children's- the sheltering I received was not quite as severe, but on the other hand, I was significantly older than any of them when my parents relinquished their hold on me. My parents are still Christians but no longer as rigid.
But I have deep resentment still over some of the ways that they kept me from living a normal life. My entire childhood was overshadowed by fear of hell. Each time I made a close friend, they pulled me away saying that person was getting "too secular" so that I had no close friends when I graduated, both because I'd been separated from the kids I'd previously been close to and because I was too afraid to make another friend who would just be pulled away again. (These were girls who had perfectly normal lives, went to college, became normal adults; they were not crack whores who my parents would be right to shelter me from). I was a top student and they used guilt and bribes to keep me from applying to the best colleges. It was because I thought I could please them that I got into a bad marriage.
I think that if my parents became more like you, Vyckie; with real sorrow that they'd ever been part of that lifestyle, I could forgive them completely and be closer to them. But even so, I think I might still feel like some parts of my life that could have been great were miserable. How are you helping your children deal with not feeling like their whole lives up to this point were wasted?
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Post by sargassosea on Jul 10, 2009 13:22:50 GMT -5
Atheist - (These were girls who had perfectly normal lives, went to college, became normal adults; they were not crack whores who my parents would be right to shelter me from) If I'm to be a good parent then which would you, oh Judge of "Normal", suggest: I "shelter" my daughter from the "crack whore" herself/himself? Or from the issues (poverty, discrimination, physical and sexual abuse, patriarchy, etc.) which create "crack whores"? And, yes, I am being sarcastic because I am quite sure you 'didn't mean it that way'...
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Post by nasdaq on Jul 10, 2009 13:54:09 GMT -5
Atheist - (These were girls who had perfectly normal lives, went to college, became normal adults; they were not crack whores who my parents would be right to shelter me from) If I'm to be a good parent then which would you, oh Judge of "Normal", suggest: I "shelter" my daughter from the "crack whore" herself/himself? Or from the issues (poverty, discrimination, physical and sexual abuse, patriarchy, etc.) which create "crack whores"? And, yes, I am being sarcastic because I am quite sure you 'didn't mean it that way'... Personally, I do try to keep my children away from people who are actively involved in substance abuse and/or prostitution. Wasn't aware that this was controversial. Whether or not those people are responsible for their condition or circumstances are responsible for the condition (generally it's both) is really irrelevant to the question of whether they make good playmates for young children.
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Post by sargassosea on Jul 10, 2009 14:04:38 GMT -5
What is controversial is when people shoot off their mouths without thinking first.
BTW - Does a pedophile rank higher or lower (on the acceptable playmate scale) in relation to a "crack whore"?
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Post by coleslaw on Jul 10, 2009 14:33:25 GMT -5
I'm not up on my animal husbandry, so I honestly do not know much about lambs or kids (the goat kind). Is there that much of a difference in how they behave? Is there much difference in mothering between the two groups, such as that sheep see their lambs as more precious as would be shown by tending them more carefully than goat moms tend their kids?
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 10, 2009 15:02:12 GMT -5
I'm not up on my animal husbandry, so I honestly do not know much about lambs or kids (the goat kind). Is there that much of a difference in how they behave? Is there much difference in mothering between the two groups, such as that sheep see their lambs as more precious as would be shown by tending them more carefully than goat moms tend their kids? Coleslaw; I'm not 100% sure of this, but in the general scheme of things, in Warren's thinking he was making an impression of being such a 'loving father'...the term "kid" was derrogatory. Kind of like in the Bible it talks often of separating the sheep from the goats...and infers that sheep are gentle and will follow any thing anywhere, and goats are like satan's side kicks? But hey, I grew up with both...sheep can be dumber than a box of rocks...and goats are, IMO, totally KYOOT! ;D I know this is probably not a really accurate explanation here... anybody got more input into than this feeble attempt of mine?
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 10, 2009 15:41:59 GMT -5
I'm not up on my animal husbandry, so I honestly do not know much about lambs or kids (the goat kind). Is there that much of a difference in how they behave? Is there much difference in mothering between the two groups, such as that sheep see their lambs as more precious as would be shown by tending them more carefully than goat moms tend their kids? What Does God Call Our Children? ~ there you go.
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Post by anatheist on Jul 10, 2009 15:49:02 GMT -5
Uh Sargosso Sea, I don't really know what you're getting at, but your tone isn't welcome.
If you knew that a peer of your underage children was experimenting with or dealing hard drugs, was having multiple partners with no birth control and encouraging others to try the same, or was otherwise involved in a self-destructive lifestyle, would you let your children (13 or 14 years old, which is the age I was when my parents started controlling my friendships) spend large amounts of time with that person without any supervision?
Why don't you just drop your kids off with the local meth pusher so they can learn all about being non-judgmental.
Even if you can't shelter your children from everything, and shouldn't, I think it's perfectly reasonable to tell your 13 year old that she can't go to someone's house without adult supervision because you know that that person or their family is involved in destructive or illicit activities.
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jo
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by jo on Jul 10, 2009 15:49:26 GMT -5
*I* will not go near sheep anymore. My parents had Jacob's Sheep. They were HORRID. The ram nearly broke my shoulder once trying to bust through me to get to the field he was not supposed to be in.
My parents also had Cashmere goats on their farm for a long, long time. When mom decided to move them, it was giving up the goats that broke my father's heart. His goats were so gentle, so sweet and so affectionate with him. Even he only survived a few years with sheep but fell in love with his goats.
Its not a biggie. But, it always tickles me when any cult uses something to illustrate their point and they GET IT WRONG. Just like Preachers who justify spanking by claiming that a shepard would break a lamb's leg to keep it from running away, thinking that sheep/lambs are more gentle and desirable than goats is one of those things that is only going to come from someone who has never interacted much with sheep and goats.
If you have to choose between sheep and goats, chose the GOATS. Watch your hair cause goats aren't too bright about what is and is not edible. But, they are smarter, gentler and more sociable than sheep by a LONG shot. Sheep will walk right into a canyon and kill themselves without stopping. They have to be watched and sheparded and protected from their own stupidity.
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Post by tapati on Jul 10, 2009 15:55:35 GMT -5
I suspect what Sea was reacting to (correct me if I'm wrong) was the term "crack whores" itself, which is admittedly pejorative even when meant as a simple descriptive. We all have our knee jerk responses to the connotations behind words, though we should check out with each other what was truly meant. I hate to see conflict escalate when I am sure no harm was intended on either side.
I suspect most of us don't want our kids or grand kids spending time with hard drug users, no matter why they ended up using drugs.
(And why do we have the term crack whores for women but we don't, that I can readily think of, have a term like that for men, some of whom also prostitute themselves for drugs?) Hmmmmmm.
Plus we don't seem to have such harsh terms for upper class prescription drug abusers (Rush Limbaugh comes to mind). It seems so much prettier when it comes from a pharmacy, I guess, though as Michael Jackson's death illustrates, just as deadly.
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Post by jemand on Jul 10, 2009 16:45:01 GMT -5
(And why do we have the term crack whores for women but we don't, that I can readily think of, have a term like that for men, some of whom also prostitute themselves for drugs?) Hmmmmmm. I actually think I've heard of men who prostitute themselves for drugs also called "crack whores." Just throwing that out there... but maybe it's a very rare usage.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 10, 2009 17:07:09 GMT -5
atheist in the bible belt wrote: Vyckie, you said that sometimes your children's anger was directed at you. Am I correct in assuming that they have some resentment for how you pushed them into the Quiverful lifestyle in the past? How are you dealing with that?LOL ~ seems like my kids get mad at me for just about anything these days They do have some legitimate reasons ~ for instance, my almost-18-year-old, Berea missed out on a lot of her education because of all the crap that was going on in our home ~ so by the time I finally acted decisively to change the situation ~ she was very far behind academically. When I registered her for school, she was old enough to be a senior, but she had 0 credits ~ so she had to start out as a sophomore ~ and that's only because in our school system, 9th graders don't go to the high school. It was going to take her 4 years to earn enough credits to graduate ~ and there's no way she wanted to be in high school until she's 21. So ~ instead, she opted to get her GED and go straight into college. She took a couple of courses this past semester and she'll be starting full-time in the fall. So ~ while it actually is working out for her, Berea understandably feels resentful that she had to go from academically behind straight into college ~ it's a pretty big challenge ~ and she's a perfectionist so she wants to maintain a 4.0 like I did ~ that's a pretty big load for her to carry. Kind of like having grown up in the desert and then being thrown into a river with a very strong current where it's either sink or swim. To complicate her situation, Berea ~ like me ~ has pretty much tossed out the bible and Christianity ~ so she's struggling philosophically with, "Why bother?" She's in a position of having to do some pretty hard things ~ but she doesn't know why she should. What's the purpose? Poor Berea ~ I really feel for her ~ and I don't really have any solid answers either ~ which is not terribly helpful. When I went from having chapter and verse for everything I thought and did to having "both feet firmly planted in mid-air" (that's how Francis Schaeffer described atheists) ~ it was freaky ~ even scary. And I had about a year's worth of correspondence with my uncle to get used to the idea. Berea had known nothing other than fundamentalist Christianity ~ but when I told her why I don't believe it anymore ~ she "got it" immediately and right then and there dropped her Christian beliefs ~ it was all rather abrupt for her. So ~ it's no wonder she gets pissed off at me, huh? I already said, Poor Berea ~ right? Other reasons that the kids get angry with me: I've noticed that now that I don't have Warren to deal with all day, every day and I can devote my attention, time and energy to my kids ~ Andrew has discovered that he really likes spending time with me ~ and I think he gets resentful sometimes when he thinks about all the years that he missed out on that and it makes him mad. During the school year, Hazelle wanted me to help her with her homework ~ and for some reason, I just REALLY did not feel like helping her. I don't know why ~ because I didn't have any problem with the other kids' homework ~ it's just Hazelle's homework that I totally dreaded. And ~ since my "liberation" for the QF lifestyle which I lived totally by "choice" ~ i.e., I did a lot of stuff that I really didn't want to do just because I thought I had to and so I "chose" to do those things ~ well, lately I have not been able or willing to make myself do stuff that I don't want to do. Stuff like helping Hazelle with her homework. I told her to get help from her teachers at school. She was understandably mad at me ~ but I couldn't even force myself to help her in order to appease her anger. There've been other things ~ mostly, it's just little stuff that doesn't really amount to much. But ~ there's no law around here these days prohibiting the kids from getting angry ~ they're even allowed ot get angry at me. There have been a couple times when my kids have even gone so far as to say, "I hate you" ~ and that has not devastated me. We work through things and they get over it. But I have deep resentment still over some of the ways that they kept me from living a normal life. Yep ~ my kids are resentful about this too. Especially now that they know the difference. Before they didn't know what they were missing out on ~ now that they know how much fun and freedom they could have had .... on the other hand, they're having such a good time now ~ I think they're too busy doing all the things they were never allowed to experience before that they don't have a lot of time to regret and resent. Hooray. I think that if my parents became more like you, Vyckie; with real sorrow that they'd ever been part of that lifestyle, I could forgive them completely and be closer to them. But even so, I think I might still feel like some parts of my life that could have been great were miserable. How are you helping your children deal with not feeling like their whole lives up to this point were wasted?
This is actually a tough one ~ because I have yet to really "deal" with the fact that I wasted all those years. I don't consider all of my childbearing to be a waste, of course ~ but I did waste a huge amount of time and energy trying to deal with Warren day after day for over 20 years. I think to myself that if I'd put all that energy into making a healthy, well-adjusted man happy ~ a man who could really appreciate my efforts and return the same to me ~ ugh ~ it just makes me angry to think about it. I have to shut off my brain and just don't go there. I do allow myself to be angry ~ but only to a point because ~ I have 7 kids to raise and I don't want to use up all my energy on regret and anger that's not actually productive. I'd much rather just enjoy the freedom that we have now. So ~ long answer, huh? Tonight's "movie night" at the Salvation Army ~ so I need to get the kids ready to go watch "Horton Hears a Who." Bye for now.
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Post by tapati on Jul 10, 2009 17:22:23 GMT -5
My answer to Berea is, with regard to education, so that she'll have lots of choices in her life and never be stuck or constricted somewhere she doesn't want to be ever again! Knowledge is power. Plus she does have a lot of catching up to do with regard to the whole world out there. College is one doorway to that world.
This is a PTSD-like reaction on your part, it sounds like, but the issue is that Hazelle still deserves the same help that the other kids get. I would say that if you need counseling to help you get over the hump and be able to do these kinds of things, by all means do so! There aren't as many "shoulds" out here, but there are some when you are raising kids. I recall my single parent days so I know how exhaustion can overtake you. Perhaps if you just can't deal with home work, find another adult who can pinch hit for awhile until you regain your equilibrium?
There was this phrase I heard somewhere that I tried to hold onto as a single parent: Children's needs aren't more important than yours--but sometimes they're more immediate.
It helped me figure out how to find a balance between recharging myself and doing what was needed at any given moment. (Not at all saying I did so perfectly!)
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Post by tapati on Jul 10, 2009 17:29:47 GMT -5
(And why do we have the term crack whores for women but we don't, that I can readily think of, have a term like that for men, some of whom also prostitute themselves for drugs?) Hmmmmmm. I actually think I've heard of men who prostitute themselves for drugs also called "crack whores." Just throwing that out there... but maybe it's a very rare usage. I think it's kind of like when we use "man" for all humans...crack whore still conjures up the picture of a female because whore has always been used that way. We don't have a gender-specific pejorative title for a man...crack addict or junkie is about it, I think. I think it stems from our still-ingrained notions about women maintaining their purity sexually and our scorn when they don't live up to that madonna image. The fact is that addicts of whatever socioeconomic status will do whatever they have to do to get their drug of choice. I don't see why we've chosen to so stigmatize the specific actions of one group of addicts in this way. Is it better to steal laptops to support a habit or sell one's own body? Get employees who fear being fired to get prescriptions for you or go to several doctors in different states/countries? Rob liquor stores, sell drugs, or boost and chop up cars? Steal from relatives and friends or rob pharmacies? We don't like any of those things but still, crack whore is the meanest term we have that I can think of. I just think that's sad.
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