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Post by grandmalou on Jul 14, 2009 9:27:52 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this post and the responses to it. It seems to me, a non-QF'er, that the Quiverful/patriarchal mindset is into the theory of children as a blessing rather than the practice. That is, have all these kids, quote bible verses to support having so many, and "God will provide" when it comes to clothing, food, healthcare, etc. In theory, children should be seen and not heard, obedient to their parents and God, etc. and a whole industry seems to have grown up to force children into this mold. But as lectio and Vyckie and others have pointed out, that system in reality is exhausting, joyless, and detrimental to the children. When they broke away, began to parent differently, and started to see their kids as individuals, then the blessings started to become real. I hope I'm not putting words into anyone's mouths or sounding like I'm pontificating, but I was really struck by the real joy Vyckie wrote about in spending time with her kids now. I hope everything is going well for you and yours, and for Laura and her family. Enlightenment girl, you summed up the essence of this QF/P lifestyle so well! Thank you for this post, which is a great one for quickly explaining to others who just 'don't get it' and don't want to stand and listen or read really long posts. Which I think there are a lot of people in that position, due to (like all of us) a lack of time. Also, thanks for the 'heads up' on your father's problem...WOW! It was only yesterday that Wayne told me finally, that he has been experiencing shortness of breath too. Today will be spent in getting him to a doctor. Bless you!
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Post by enlightenmentgirl on Jul 14, 2009 11:25:12 GMT -5
My pleasure, grandmalou. Hope you get him to a doctor and everything is all right. I've just learned, from pets and people, check to see if what seems to be a behavioral issue is medical first. If you can rule out the medical, then focus on the behavior. Good luck
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syfr
New Member
Posts: 30
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Post by syfr on Jul 15, 2009 12:07:57 GMT -5
I just looked up "kid" in the Oxford English Dictionary. "Kid" has been used to mean a child since 1599 at least.
Also, that Above Rubies post - it could be that the goats don't spend time with the kids because doing so would attract attention to the youngsters, making them more likely to be prey. There are animal parents who will run away from their offsprings' nest, trying to draw the predators' attention and maybe be eaten, in order for their young to live.
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 15, 2009 13:10:09 GMT -5
I just looked up "kid" in the Oxford English Dictionary. "Kid" has been used to mean a child since 1599 at least. Also, that Above Rubies post - it could be that the goats don't spend time with the kids because doing so would attract attention to the youngsters, making them more likely to be prey. There are animal parents who will run away from their offsprings' nest, trying to draw the predators' attention and maybe be eaten, in order for their young to live. I LOVE it, Syfr! Thanks for that post! Yes, I've seen this in various animals. Most birds, and especially kildeers, are noted for this behavior. I just knew there was some good reasons for being very fond of goats, and calling children kids...
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Post by debrand on Jul 17, 2009 9:02:58 GMT -5
I just looked up "kid" in the Oxford English Dictionary. "Kid" has been used to mean a child since 1599 at least. Also, that Above Rubies post - it could be that the goats don't spend time with the kids because doing so would attract attention to the youngsters, making them more likely to be prey. There are animal parents who will run away from their offsprings' nest, trying to draw the predators' attention and maybe be eaten, in order for their young to live. I can't find the specific post that refrenced the Above Rubies article. So, I am a bit lost. Did it say that moma goats don't care for their kids? I have been on my friend's farms. She raises goats and sells products like goat milk soap and lotions. Her mama goats certainly appear to have affection for their little kids. Female goats are pretty affectionate and sweet, especially if humans have taken time with them when they were younger.
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Post by enlightenmentgirl on Jul 17, 2009 9:27:03 GMT -5
I've always had a soft spot for goats, ever since I read a book about them as a child. I really wanted a goat and a little cart, but that wasnt going to happen in suburban New Jersey. . . It's funny that both sheep and goats have the same type of eyes, yet there is a brightness, a curiosity to goats' eyes that sheep lack. So yeah, if I end up with the goats instead of sheep, it'll be no problem for me!
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Post by debrand on Jul 17, 2009 9:45:15 GMT -5
All right, I finally found the article about goat kids verses sheep babies.
It sounds as if the author is using human biases to interpret animal behavior. Many animals leave their young while they forage for food. This is not uncommon behavior in the animal world and is no indication of that particular species mothering abilities.
This isn't the first time that I have come across fundamentalists' incorrect views on animal husbandary. There is an article on the site run by the Pearls(is it No Greater Joy?) in which the author claims that the day old chicks that he purchased segregated themselves into groups based on gender. None of the day old chicks that I have purchased did this. When chicks huddle it is a sign that they need additional warmth.
I doubt that Christ cares if we call our children, kids. SOmetimes fundamentalists take metaphors in the bible that are meant to teach a specific truth and force them to apply to situations the original author did not mean for them to be used for.
I think that this is happening with the term, Kid. Besides the bible did not use the term, child either. Jesus used whatever Hebrew or Aramic term meant young children.
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Post by jemand on Jul 17, 2009 10:22:46 GMT -5
There is an article on the site run by the Pearls(is it No Greater Joy?) in which the author claims that the day old chicks that he purchased segregated themselves into groups based on gender. ROFLOL!! It is not even POSSIBLE to distinguish the sex of day old chicks yet! Well I suppose you could test DNA but I sincerely doubt he did that.
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jeb
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by jeb on Jul 17, 2009 12:42:34 GMT -5
enlightenmentgirl: My former wife and I had milk goats (Nubian mostly) for 15 years or more in Mississippi (also had several hives of bees so I could legitimately say that we lived in the Land of Milk and Honey ;D) and they are wonderful critters and smarter then folks give them credit for. This little video clip I found on YouTube brought tears to my eyes it reminded me so much of my time with the goats. One spring we had 5 sets of triplets, 3 sets and twins and several singles. Got in the goat business real fast that spring. Anyway, this is way off thread and I apologize but you say goats to me and I start to rhapsodize. Anyhoo, here's the link, eh? www.youtube.com/watch?v=374wdROpuZcEnjoy, John
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 18, 2009 10:25:13 GMT -5
Anyway, this is way off thread and I apologize but you say goats to me and I start to rhapsodize. AWWW, John; Dagnabit, now you said the magic words...(sigh) Once a "goat roper", always a goat roper, huh? When I was a KID (pun intended), we had one old billy who used to 'push me' in my swing. Grandpa made the swing a bit too high for my short little KID legs, but Billy would come up behind me, and ever so gently, butt me in the butt and get me started! After that I could pump the swing by myself. But was that not a clever goat? Or what? Some of our goats got sold, some got butchered. But that one got to die of a 'ripe' (have you ever smelled an old billy goat?) old age! LOL ;D ;D
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Post by enlightenmentgirl on Jul 18, 2009 15:41:05 GMT -5
At the risk of being told "shut up about goats already!" John: The goat video on YouTube was charming. Sheep lose that playfulness really early on; goats always seem to retain it. Grandmalou: How lucky to have a goat babysitter to push your swing! I once told a friend of my fondness for goats and he snorted, "Goats are smelly and disgusting!" I replied that they not only gave us milk, meat and (in certain breeds) wool, but they were nature's own perfect lawn mowers. To bring this back to topic: Just like the goat kids in the video played and romped freely, children should be allowed to play, romp and roam intellectually as well as physically. It doesn't seem that hardcore Patriarchal Christianity allows its little humans the same type of curiosity, joy and freedom as decent goat breeders.
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 18, 2009 16:11:56 GMT -5
At the risk of being told "shut up about goats already!" John: The goat video on YouTube was charming. Sheep lose that playfulness really early on; goats always seem to retain it. Grandmalou: How lucky to have a goat babysitter to push your swing! I once told a friend of my fondness for goats and he snorted, "Goats are smelly and disgusting!" I replied that they not only gave us milk, meat and (in certain breeds) wool, but they were nature's own perfect lawn mowers. To bring this back to topic: Just like the goat kids in the video played and romped freely, children should be allowed to play, romp and roam intellectually as well as physically. It doesn't seem that hardcore Patriarchal Christianity allows its little humans the same type of curiosity, joy and freedom as decent goat breeders. What a delightful comparison, enlightenmentgirl, of children (excuse me...KIDS!) being allowed to play, and so forth... now I find myself wishing I had a few goats so my little grand babies who are NOT babies any more could come and romp with them! Gee, you know, maybe we could (all us old goat ropers) get together and write a book on the advantages of these wonderful critters!
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Post by rosa on Jul 20, 2009 22:10:05 GMT -5
There is actually a really wonderful Christian libertarian book called Goat Walking, by Jim Corbett - he was (is?) active in the environmental and Sanctuary movements, and part of that was both wandering the desert and running a goat herd on BLM land to protect it from overgrazing (since in the '80s you couldn't buy up grazing leases and not use them, which was one of the tactics environmentalists tried to protect natural areas in the arid west).
He talks about how important understanding nomadic life is to understanding the Bible, and about how being tied to property diminishes your freedom and your ability to do civil disobedience...it's a really good book. I should get my copy back from the friend I lent it to.
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Post by grandmalou on Jul 21, 2009 6:19:47 GMT -5
There is actually a really wonderful Christian libertarian book called Goat Walking, by Jim Corbett - he was (is?) active in the environmental and Sanctuary movements, and part of that was both wandering the desert and running a goat herd on BLM land to protect it from overgrazing (since in the '80s you couldn't buy up grazing leases and not use them, which was one of the tactics environmentalists tried to protect natural areas in the arid west). He talks about how important understanding nomadic life is to understanding the Bible, and about how being tied to property diminishes your freedom and your ability to do civil disobedience...it's a really good book. I should get my copy back from the friend I lent it to. Oh, thanks, Rosa! I will check this out on Amazon!
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Post by rose31759 on Jan 22, 2010 12:53:17 GMT -5
Dear Vyckie,
It certainly is hard to undo all the teaching of how our children are to behave and if they don't that we are 'bad' parents who are out of God's will for us and them. Letting my daughters (who are all adults now) have their own minds and allowing them to speak them (if done with respect towards myself, their father, and their siblings) was not always easy and often flew in the face of the teaching of the church, but in the end it was the best thing we as parents ever did. They are now independent thinkers who are a blessing to everyone they meet.
Keep up the work you've started in allowing your children to be who the Creator made them to be.
Rose
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