|
Post by journey on Nov 8, 2009 14:31:00 GMT -5
Since you have more insight into abusive women, does it make you more sympathetic to them? The wierd thing about the fundie/conservative Christian message boards is that it's not considered bullying. You've already established the principle that there is *one* right way and the rest are wrong, and that there are people who know what that is and you're supposed to cheerfully follow them, so... It was a perfect "righteous" fit for the feelings of power that I needed. To this day, I have a really hard time on almost any conservative Christian message board, because there are always people like that who "know everything" and must tell you God's Way for doing it all....and I used to be that person, and I just can't stomach seeing it, and especially seeing other people following along with it. As for understanding women who abuse, I don't, in most ways. I am not sure what makes the mind of an abuser (male or female) tick...I don't think that way, in general, and I don't understand it. It all makes me very sad. But as for having sympathy towards strong leader-type women in a patriarchal system, yes, I do have sympathy for them, and I feel compassion for them as they beat the only pulpit they are allowed to have: that of encouraging other women to submit to the patriarchal system. It doesn't make it any more right, but I do understand it... When you are a natural leader, and you have pretty much no other outlet for your gifts---AND you truly do believe that patriarchy is "God's Way"-----well, it is no big surprise that you will probably find great pleasure and relief in getting to use your leadership giftings somewhere...even if the only acceptable place for them is found in calling all other women to submit to "God's Way." I feel very very sorry for any and all strong women with leadership skills in the patriarchal set up. It is a horrible place to be.
|
|
jtn
New Member
Posts: 11
|
Post by jtn on Nov 8, 2009 16:48:54 GMT -5
One thing I'm really curious about is how Leviticus law gels with these beliefs. I grew up in a family that grew increasingly conservative evangelical where I called myself the family grey sheep. Not exactly the black sheep, but most people thought my brother was an only child because I found the church they moved me to creepy. A few good stunts coupled with stronger theological grounding than many of my contemporaries and they stopped forcing me to attend.
I've never been able to get my head about the strict adherence to the Bible yet ignore laws they dislike (i.e. blended fabrics, gold, food prohibitions (though the ignoring meat laws can be justified by NT material)) and am curious how it explained/justified.
|
|
|
Post by margybargy on Nov 8, 2009 19:10:58 GMT -5
The wierd thing about the fundie/conservative Christian message boards is that it's not considered bullying. You've already established the principle that there is *one* right way and the rest are wrong, and that there are people who know what that is and you're supposed to cheerfully follow them, so... It was a perfect "righteous" fit for the feelings of power that I needed. To this day, I have a really hard time on almost any conservative Christian message board, because there are always people like that who "know everything" and must tell you God's Way for doing it all....and I used to be that person, and I just can't stomach seeing it, and especially seeing other people following along with it. Wow. This is interesting. There's bullying and manipulation outside the fundie world, too, of course. And that is often difficult to detect and combat. How much worse it must be when the bully seems to be backed up by God. Not just any old god either, a wrathful one who will send you to Hell for all eternity. You start out intimidated - very convenient for the bully, I suppose.
|
|
|
Post by vedakai on Nov 9, 2009 1:43:19 GMT -5
I'm curious as to what kind of stunts those were, jtn. They must have been pretty big to get your parents to stop making you attend.
|
|
jeb
Junior Member
Posts: 97
|
Post by jeb on Nov 9, 2009 8:07:20 GMT -5
The wierd thing about the fundie/conservative Christian message boards is that it's not considered bullying. You've already established the principle that there is *one* right way and the rest are wrong, and that there are people who know what that is and you're supposed to cheerfully follow them, so... It was a perfect "righteous" fit for the feelings of power that I needed. To this day, I have a really hard time on almost any conservative Christian message board, because there are always people like that who "know everything" and must tell you God's Way for doing it all....and I used to be that person, and I just can't stomach seeing it, and especially seeing other people following along with it. Wow. This is interesting. There's bullying and manipulation outside the fundie world, too, of course. And that is often difficult to detect and combat. How much worse it must be when the bully seems to be backed up by God. Not just any old god either, a wrathful one who will send you to Hell for all eternity. You start out intimidated - very convenient for the bully, I suppose. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There's a blog, which most of you are probably aware of, called Dwindling in Unbelief . . . .http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/ . . . . that describes the BULLY god of the Israelites and the mayhem HE creates in their lives and on their behalf in great detail. For example He plunges them into captivity because of their disobedience several times and then when they pray to him he kills the folks that he allowed to enslave them. I've pondered this god for a long time. Is he really omniscient and omnipresent? And with this kind of god is it surprising that his followers have no problem in slaughtering, never mind bullying, those they disagree with? I know, I know, the god of Jesus is a loving, caring father but that's not the god that shows up when his followers today get ticked off with someone who disagrees with them. That seems to be especially true of the Calvinists some of whom believe that god actually creates billions of souls for the express purpose of torturing them forever . . . for his glory, of course. I've several questions I've asked for years of believers who want me to believe that their god REALLY loves me and who want me to join with them. Here's what I ask: 1) Does God know everything?? I mean the Bible says he knows a persons life from in their mother's womb and he knows a life before it's it's ever lived and how many hairs on my head and when the sparrow falls etc. So does God know everything? If He does, then why didn't he know what Adam and Eve were going to do in the Garden of Eden? Why was that such a surprise? 2) So if God knew what they were going to do . . . before he even made the world and went ahead and made it anyway, with all the concomitant results, what does that say about God? a) It means that He knew that in 1938 I, John, would be born at the Women's College Hospital in Toronto, ON and that at the age of 26 I would disavow Christianity thereby assuring I would spend eternity in hell. But He went ahead and made the world anyway. b) And if He knew that about me He also knew it about billions of other souls . . . . which he would also have to burn in Hell because, after all, he is a just God and has to do what he says. So He went ahead and did it anyway. c) It would also mean that if he knew that Adam and Eve were going to screw up he also knew, before He did the first days work on creating the world, that He was going to have to have His son killed as a sacrifice for what Adam and Eve started in the garden. But He went ahead and did it anyway. Doesn't this make God either a dumb ass or one of the most sadistic, blood thirsty, SOBs ever??? And how is "Love me or be tortured forever" a choice as the Bible and its adherents would have us believe? If I told my son (as it does in the Bible) "Do what I say or I'll kill you", I'd be in jail before I could turn around to get a handfull of rocks. I'm sorry, that's not a Choice . . . it's an ultimatum . . . of the worst kind. Believers have no answers for these questions that I've ever heard Other than FREE WILL, FREE WILL, FREE WILL. I get so tired of FREE WILL . . . FREE WILL doesn't matter because if god is ALL KNOWING he KNEW what choices every one of us would make BEFORE he even created the world. The only one that tried a somewhat different approach was a lady that said, "I'll pray that you find the answers you need", which is no answer at all, is it? Personally I think the God that most of these folks worship is the Devil they fear. And no, I don't believe in the Devil either. There may be a God but it's my belief that if there is IT would have to be so far beyond my ken that I wouldn't recognize IT if I saw IT. Mostly because my eyes would probably blow out, eh? Or maybe my eyes are IT seeing the world through me. ;D Well, that's my 33 cents on this subject . . . for what it's worth, eh? And besides, PG, one of my two cats, is demanding that I pet him so I gotta go. In the meantime Please treat yourselves and each other with love. John
|
|
|
Post by justflyingin on Nov 9, 2009 9:13:39 GMT -5
Vyckie- i missed the conversation in the chat room about what happened in the bar with Rachel and her friend. I'd really like to hear about what happened if you care to share. It would be interesting to hear about Rachel. I'd never heard of her before this interview. She definitely seems to be "speaking out of both sides of her mouth." Do you think that Mary Pride was one of the originators of this movement? I read a book by her 17+ years ago and it bothered me that she was presenting the idea of having 6+ kids each as a way to win over the public school system, have an effect on America, etc. I had never heard of such a thing before (winning by simply 'outpopulating' the enemy), but if a person believes in Reformed Theology, do they basically believe that things will get better on this earth? Maybe this is how they kind of "force the issue". Maybe someone who knows about this issue could answer.
|
|
|
Post by margybargy on Nov 9, 2009 10:18:40 GMT -5
There's a blog, which most of you are probably aware of, called Dwindling in Unbelief . . . .http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/ . . . . that describes the BULLY god of the Israelites and the mayhem HE creates in their lives and on their behalf in great detail. For example He plunges them into captivity because of their disobedience several times and then when they pray to him he kills the folks that he allowed to enslave them. I've pondered this god for a long time. Is he really omniscient and omnipresent? And with this kind of god is it surprising that his followers have no problem in slaughtering, never mind bullying, those they disagree with? I know, I know, the god of Jesus is a loving, caring father but that's not the god that shows up when his followers today get ticked off with someone who disagrees with them. That seems to be especially true of the Calvinists some of whom believe that god actually creates billions of souls for the express purpose of torturing them forever . . . for his glory, of course. I've several questions I've asked for years of believers who want me to believe that their god REALLY loves me and who want me to join with them. Here's what I ask: 1) Does God know everything?? I mean the Bible says he knows a persons life from in their mother's womb and he knows a life before it's it's ever lived and how many hairs on my head and when the sparrow falls etc. So does God know everything? If He does, then why didn't he know what Adam and Eve were going to do in the Garden of Eden? Why was that such a surprise? 2) So if God knew what they were going to do . . . before he even made the world and went ahead and made it anyway, with all the concomitant results, what does that say about God? a) It means that He knew that in 1938 I, John, would be born at the Women's College Hospital in Toronto, ON and that at the age of 26 I would disavow Christianity thereby assuring I would spend eternity in hell. But He went ahead and made the world anyway. b) And if He knew that about me He also knew it about billions of other souls . . . . which he would also have to burn in Hell because, after all, he is a just God and has to do what he says. So He went ahead and did it anyway. c) It would also mean that if he knew that Adam and Eve were going to screw up he also knew, before He did the first days work on creating the world, that He was going to have to have His son killed as a sacrifice for what Adam and Eve started in the garden. But He went ahead and did it anyway. Doesn't this make God either a dumb ass or one of the most sadistic, blood thirsty, SOBs ever??? And how is "Love me or be tortured forever" a choice as the Bible and its adherents would have us believe? If I told my son (as it does in the Bible) "Do what I say or I'll kill you", I'd be in jail before I could turn around to get a handfull of rocks. I'm sorry, that's not a Choice . . . it's an ultimatum . . . of the worst kind. Believers have no answers for these questions that I've ever heard Other than FREE WILL, FREE WILL, FREE WILL. I get so tired of FREE WILL . . . FREE WILL doesn't matter because if god is ALL KNOWING he KNEW what choices every one of us would make BEFORE he even created the world. The only one that tried a somewhat different approach was a lady that said, "I'll pray that you find the answers you need", which is no answer at all, is it? Personally I think the God that most of these folks worship is the Devil they fear. And no, I don't believe in the Devil either. There may be a God but it's my belief that if there is IT would have to be so far beyond my ken that I wouldn't recognize IT if I saw IT. Mostly because my eyes would probably blow out, eh? Or maybe my eyes are IT seeing the world through me. ;D Well, that's my 33 cents on this subject . . . for what it's worth, eh? And besides, PG, one of my two cats, is demanding that I pet him so I gotta go. In the meantime Please treat yourselves and each other with love. John I'm not surprised the believers you've spoken with were unable to give you a satisfying answer to your questions. Christianity is quite a mess if you try to follow it logically and consistantly. It is not a sound ethical system for sure. The healthy Christians that I know just sort of emphasize the positive bits, and downplay or ignore the negative bits. I really don't see anything wrong with that, to be honest. Some people just want that comfort factor. I'm okay with it as long as it works for them and isn't hurtful to anyone else. Then, of course, there's the unhealthy Christianity, which we are all way too familiar with. The kind where people take this inconsistant mess and try to follow it to the letter. Even worse, try to impose on other people to follow it to the letter. Christianity really is what people make of it. I'm like you, I think. I'm a questioner and a researcher. I always want to know the basis. I want to know why. I want things to make sense and be logically consistant. I want positive, real-world, measurable, observable outcomes. That's why Christianity did not work out for me.
|
|
|
Post by rosa on Nov 9, 2009 11:35:06 GMT -5
I have a lot of friends who are believers and not fundamentalists, and they don't have an answer for that question for a number of reasons:
some of them follow Biblical scholarship and say, oh, those histories were basically court propaganda at various times in the kingdom of Israel, God didn't really do that. We keep it in the Bible for historical reasons but it's just literature.
Others say, you know, we use all these words about God but in essence the divine is unknowable. All those contradictions are the result of our lack of understanding. It's really only a problem if you're a "tell other people how to believe" kind of Christian, or a theologian.
|
|
jtn
New Member
Posts: 11
|
Post by jtn on Nov 9, 2009 12:25:15 GMT -5
One time I refused to go into church and chose to sit out in our car in 40 degree weather for 3 hours rather than go inside. I think that one eventually scared my mother out of forcing me to attend because she'd have a frozen child if we continued.
There was the time when I literally blocked the door to my room so I couldn't leave. I got a week of no tv that time, but it also meant no one else got tv that week because I took to reading in the living room.
There was the time I got into it with my Sunday school teachers because I accused them of teaching logically unsound material. The first time was when they tried to tell me everyone was going to hell if they didn't believe in the version of Christianity they did. I asked what about people who have never been exposed to Christianity in rural China... and when they said "of course they go to hell" the conversation went downhill from there.
Oh.. the memories... there was the time they showed a bunch of 9th grade Sunday schoolers "The Silent Scream" which I took offense to (being one of the 9th graders)... oh.. the the awesome Christian scare videos about how meditation is the way to let the Devil into your soul.
Ultimately, I think my parents found it easier to pretend they just had one child at church than 1 'perfect' son and 1 'rebellious' daughter.
The irony is my brother is a self absorbed minister now and he takes advantage of my parents mercilessly. Moreover, after years of hearing my mother literally scream at me for hours about how much of a failure she feels as a parent because I was not doing what they told me to do, she is proud of me because (aside from having a phd and being a professor) I'm one of the only kids in their churchy social circle that isn't (or didn't) (take your pick): have a drug problem, alcohol problem, child the grandparents are raising, divorced multiple times, or still living at home in their mid 30s. Mostly, around 13 I decided home and school were roughly the same as a 5 year jail sentence and attended the college that accepted me furthest from our home.
|
|
|
Post by margybargy on Nov 9, 2009 12:35:49 GMT -5
rosa, It would be interesting if some scholar re-wrote the Bible and took out all the parts that "don't belong" - like the court propaganda that you described. I wonder what would be left. But where would that leave the fundies? One of the fundamentals is that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. But that claim is a non-starter anyway. My understanding is that the Bible was cobbled together existing works over time by various Bishops and such. Is that any way to produce inerrant anything? Oh nooooooo, I'm off topic. Sorry. This is supposed to be about Rachel Scott and her head games. To make up for my off-topicness, here's a link to an article she commented on. blogs.reuters.com/photo/2009/07/24/life-with-a-quiverfull-family-the-story-behind-the-story/comment-page-1/And as further penance, here is the text of her comment on that article. She really wants to be on teeeeveeeeeee. August 5th, 2009 1:53 am GMT Beautiful! You really captured the essence of what it means to have a quiverfull family! I hope you win some awards with this story! If you are ever interested in doing another Quiverful family, my family will be featured as well as the Jueb’s in an upcoming CBS produced documentary on WE network this fall. I have other story ideas as well. You can contact me at rachelmscott99@aol.com
|
|
|
Post by bsgnutty on Nov 9, 2009 12:45:05 GMT -5
I just saw the episode Sunday night WOW, Vyckie I loved your comments about how you felt during the interview I’m sure at times it was hard to hold back a comment but it seems you let it all out on your blog;D. As you pointed out concerning the seating arrangement it was a brilliant set up Rachael reminded me of a lawyer ‘loving to here her self talk’ LOL. She did seem to paint a rosy picture about her life, I was getting worried that someone had sandblasted a smile to her face. The times her smile faded there was a glaring contradiction in what ‘she believes’ and what is actually the truth. I have found some interesting things on ‘Quiverful’ on the internet, I wonder in what world she is living in when Joy makes comments trying understand her world Katherine pointing out what is actually out there and your comments about living through it she seems dismiss miss all of it. She seems to have a narcissistic personality, I could be wrong but wrong but it just doesn’t sit well. Any way really love your blog thanks for inviting us into your world and telling your story. So say we all!! (favorite quote from BSG)
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Nov 9, 2009 15:48:03 GMT -5
JTN, in answer to this:
The short-and-simple answer is that the laws God set up for the nation of Israel contained various kinds of laws: nation-making laws, which were specifically for that nation at that period in time and were never meant to apply to the church; ceremonial laws which were meant to differentiate the practices of the Hebrews from the idol-worshipping practices of the other nations around it; and moral laws, which are encapsulated in "love the Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus said he had come to "fulfill" the law. Fulfilled law is complete. Mainstream Christians believe that the only laws that now apply to Christians are the ones encompassed within the moral laws of love.
Jeb, with regards to this:
I suspect the people you have talked to have not done much study of theology. There are several schools of thought (and many Christians have the idea that God actually intends us to think for ourselves about these matters, which is why the Bible is a hodgepodge of different sacred writings and not a straight, simple rule book. Disagreement doesn't bother God the way it apparently bothers many Christians!)
My own answers to these questions, in a nutshell, are:
The Adam and Eve story contains so much that is clearly mythical (trees with specific allegorical names, for example), that I don't think it was ever intended to be read as if it were history. It is an account of the human condition. It answers the issues at the heart of being human (sometimes called the "human problematic") encompassed in such questions as, "why is there a difference between the way I think things ought to be and the way they are?" or "How do I deal with my awareness of my own future death?"
Within the framework of that story, certain things become clear:
1. God did and does know that the self-aware beings God made were and are going to rebel against God. He considered the pain we would bring on ourselves, worth it-- because of the joy of relationship with us.
2. God knew all along that the Incarnation and Atonement would be necessary. This means that God was willing to take on the human condition Him/Herself (God is not male or female but encompasses all aspects of both)-- rather than let us humans suffer on our own.
3. God did all this because from God's perspective, suffering is not the same as it is from our perspective. God knows the kind of aware-of-it suffering that self-aware humans do, is the only way for humans to gain character depth, courage, compassion, perspective-- in short, to grow and develop into fullness of being. God thought it important that God, too, suffer. God's own suffering does us real, spiritual good in delivering us from the power of the spiritual/moral traps we are inclined to fall into -- including our tendency to try to control and dominate others. Jesus asks us to let go of those things and live in union with him in his nature so we can be free.
4. God does not tell people, "Do what I say or burn in hell." Hell as a concept doesn't even exist in the Old Testament, and all the mentions of it in the New Testament occur within parables or other symbolic/apocalyptic writings. What the idea of Hell appears to me to be is that people choose their own paths, either life-giving or destructive ones. How the destructive paths will play out in eternity is beyond my ken, but there are truths to be gained from the parables of Hell. There are also plenty of Scriptural reasons to believe that the "burn-in-hell" ideas of the fundies are limited and inaccurate when looked at in light of eternity.
5. The Bible is a group of writings of people who had encounters with God. God always accommodates any revelations of God to the mindset of the people who had the encounter. My own encounters with God are couched within my own limited understanding. I should not be surprised that people who encountered God in 6000 BC would think of God according to their own understandings, savage though they may appear to me. I should not be surprised if Jesus couched his own teachings in words and symbols that the people in Roman Judea would understand.
6. There is no reason to believe that those who have never heard the name of Jesus have therefore never encountered the Holy Spirit. There is even scriptural evidence to support the idea that God meets each individual where that individual is. As a Christian I believe that Jesus is the incarnation of God, in whose life we have life-- but that doesn't mean that his life can't be encountered by seekers who don't know his name.
All this is a very, very nutshell response. But I resist the idea that there is no such thing as consistent Christianity, or that very nature of Christianity is such that a Christian can't think logically about his/her faith and put it together as rationally and consistently as we humans are capable of.
|
|
jtn
New Member
Posts: 11
|
Post by jtn on Nov 9, 2009 17:46:29 GMT -5
Jesus said he had come to "fulfill" the law. Fulfilled law is complete. Mainstream Christians believe that the only laws that now apply to Christians are the ones encompassed within the moral laws of love. ----
Sure, but I don't buy that. Its part of the same argument that the covenant set forth by God with the 10 commandments was fulfilled on the cross with the death of Jesus... thus, the 10 commandments do not bind us in any way because a new covenant was set forth in the New Testament in piecemeal fashion (across various books, instead of in one place). If so, why try to have the 10 commandments in schools or public facilities at all?
I suppose that's my point... if the covenant is fulfilled, then what is the big deal about the 10 commandments as law from God(which is held up as important), yet Leviticus is largely ignored as an artifact of an earlier time that doesn't apply.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Nov 9, 2009 18:33:38 GMT -5
Well, a lot of people see the 10 commandments as being moral laws encompassed within that "love God and love each other" command.
But don't look at me-- I have long since abandoned the position that the 10 Commandments should be on display in our public buildings. ;D
|
|
jeb
Junior Member
Posts: 97
|
Post by jeb on Nov 9, 2009 20:18:32 GMT -5
Dear KR ~ I know all of that, eh? I was referring specifically, even though I didn't state so, to the literalists who take the Bible, every single word of it, as the inspired word of god, just as true today for us as when it was written. I'm reminded of an Indian saint of the 19th century who was approached by a Christian man who wanted to be a disciple to him. He asked the man what religion he was and then told the man to go home and come back in three months. During that 3 months the saint meditated on Jesus/Christianity and when the man came back he told him, "Follow Jesus and his teachings. I followed him in my meditation and he leads to the same place my teachings would take you. All paths, in their purest form, lead to the light". Or words to that affect. I say all that because even though I've faulted John Shelby Spong for being 'Stuck On Jesus', so to speak, his understanding of what Jesus is all about is so far beyond the primitive understandings of most televangelists/fundamentalists that there's no comparison. So, in my NSHO, it's okay to be 'Stuck on Jesus' if that gives meaning to your life and comfort to your soul. But people like that aren't the ones that are hammering on your door or your head trying to force you to believe as they do. Personally I think that I'll never know what god is or where but in my life I've had some pretty far out experiences that have convinced me that there's more mystery to who/what/where we are than science can ever tell us. And I'm comfortable with the mystery and am not amazed or offended by anything that science discovers. The universe is. I am. The universe is a mystery. So am I. Glory be to the freedom to be a mystery within a mystery without a need to be saved or explained. I love the story that I read many years ago about a spiritual teacher and his student sitting out on a bench looking at the night sky. And the teacher, pointing to the starry sky asked the student, "What do you think all of that is up there?" The student said he didn't understand the question so the teacher asked him to imagine the smallest grain of dust at their feet and to imagine he was living on that grain of dust just like he lived on this planet we call Earth. Then he asked him to imagine he was sitting out at night, just like they were now but with another teacher who pointed at him, his teacher, and said, "What do you suppose all of that is up there? Do you think you would say, "Oh, that's my teacher on Earth". No, you would not for every molecule in my body would look like a galaxy and every atom like a star with planets and you would have no more idea of "my teacher on earth" then you do of what you see up there. So you see by this that we really don't have any idea of space or distance". Then the teacher lit a match and let it burn for a few seconds before blowing it out. He said to his student, "Can you imagine that while that match was burning it was emitting particles and that on one such particle there lived creatures such as you and I and that for them the life of their planet/universe was eons long while for us it was a matter of seconds? So you can see that just as we have no idea of space we also have no real understanding of time". Behold, we have a mystery. I love it! Or possibly our universe is contained in a pimple on an elephant's butt.FDLH!! Be good to yourself . . . and those you meet along the way. John
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Nov 9, 2009 20:42:45 GMT -5
John, I appreciate the response-- but looking again through the discussion points being made here, what everyone has been talking about as being so illogical and inconsistent is being called by the same name as the faith I identify with. Like it or not, this says something about me as the kind of person who would believe something so illogical and inconsistent. So when I do come up with some decent answers to the questions you say no "believer" has ever come up with decent answers to-- it's confusing to hear you say that you already know those answers. If you already know that these are one set of answers Christians might provide to your questions, then why do you say "Christianity" leads to the inescapable conclusion that God is a sadistic, bloodthirsty SOB?
I'm beginning to understand why writer Don Miller no longer calls his beliefs "Christianity." He calls them "Christian spirituality," because when people say the word "Christianity," what they often really mean is "hyper-fundamentalist Reformed Protestantism."
I don't mean to sound defensive-- but really, it is difficult to hear.
|
|
jeb
Junior Member
Posts: 97
|
Post by jeb on Nov 9, 2009 21:27:22 GMT -5
Exactly, KR. Your view of Christianity is so far removed from the literalists that calling yourself a Christian becomes a problem. The nut cases have so sullied the name 'Christian', Christianity & Jesus Christ that when someone who has been abused by such folk or is just plain tired of being told, "Come to Jesus", they immediately lump you in with that lot and dismiss you out of hand. It's what happens when the non-thinkers, the 'has to be black and white', get a hold on anything, eh? Which isn't to belittle simple, unassuming people who find solace in the rituals of any religion.
I've said more then once that a lot of Christians aren't too far removed from the Hottentots and other primitive folk worshipping the bones of their ancestors at a little shrine in the back of their hut. Except, of course, that that denigrates the Hottentots who were a peaceful people, as I understand it, and that's not true of a lot of so-called Christians who shout, "We LOVE you, but you're going to believe like we do if we have to beat you to death to make you do it". The Cross and the Sword, eh? What a history!
I think though, that we've gotten way off thread here, KR, so perhaps we'd best let this go, eh?
Peace John
|
|
|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 10, 2009 12:11:26 GMT -5
I'm beginning to understand why writer Don Miller no longer calls his beliefs "Christianity." He calls them "Christian spirituality," because when people say the word "Christianity," what they often really mean is "hyper-fundamentalist Reformed Protestantism." I don't mean to sound defensive-- but really, it is difficult to hear. KR ~ have you seen this article: www.alternet.org/story/143844/is_blind_faith_in_god_and_the_bible_a_modern_invention/?cID=1362985#c1362985?I don't know why I have such a hard time reading Karen Armstrong's stuff ~ I've been working at "The Spiral Staircase" for over a year now and am only halfway through. I've been tempted to just give up at times ~ but for some reason, I don't. I keep picking it back up and reading for as long as I can stand it ... which isn't very long. I've been thinking lately that I just *don't feel like* believing in God right now ~ or even trying to figure stuff out like I used to. Guess I'm burned out, huh? But then there's this something (I don't know what) that keeps me going back and thinking and rethinking ... ugh. It never used to be a chore to ponder deep things.
|
|
lectio
Full Member
growing...
Posts: 128
|
Post by lectio on Nov 10, 2009 13:04:37 GMT -5
I just listened to an interview with Karen Armstrong on Speaking of Faith with Krista Tippet... I believe the date of the podcast would be somewhere around 11/1 to 11/9 and the title, if memory serves me correct, is "Freelance Monotheist," or something like that...she basically tells her story of being a nun, of going atheist, and of being drawn back into monotheism as she worked for an atheist television show and had to study/research/report on Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Talk about an interesting show! Vyckie, It seems like you are doing just this, but just in case, I want to encourage you that you *should* be burned out right now, that it's normal and natural and healthy to have a "yuck" feeling towards something that caused so much harm. I'm sure that time will bring healing (whether or not that includes a belief in God). (((hugs))) General ramble: I know that for me, speaking as one who still believes in God, I am fundamentally changed by my experience of spiritual abuse... in that, the further I come out of that way of thinking, the less able I am even able to entertain a deep bible study or a big enthusiastic push towards some area of theology. I have a deep aversion to opening my bible to study anything, and I have a deep aversion to exploring theological views, etc. I can totally hack stuff like Donald Miller, Anne Lamott, etc, and I love listening to interviews and thoughts by various thinkers on various religions...but whatever that thing was that used to be there (and Vyckie has described that thing so well herself, that deep and enjoyable need to dig out and uncover and discover and seek)....? It's almost entirely gone right now, when it comes to theology. I want to care...I just don't. I figure it's probably a reaction of some sort to everything that happened...maybe some of it's wise, in that my desire to know and figure out "the right way" is tempered now by understanding that most of the time, there is never one right way....and if I think there is, I'm just setting myself up for hurt.... Maybe some of it is a good thing that's been broken. I don't really know. So far, I just haven't been fighting it. I used to fight my own natural inclinations all the time, so now I just allow myself to feel and experienced whatever I am feeling and experiencing, and trust that, in general, I know what's best for me and so it's probably a good idea to listen to me. LOL... So if/when I have an aversion, I listen to it. If/when I have an interest (like that interview with Karen Armstrong), I listen to it. I really like it that way. No guilt. No, "you should..." No, "you have to..." When I first came out of patriarchy, my mind was FULL of the "should's," and it took so long to get that sense out of my head. I think it's pretty much gone now. Never thought that would be possible. I like it. I feel like I'm so much more in tune with myself. I love God. I believe that love is the answer to so much, and that grace is a beautiful beautiful thing. I don't know very much beyond that, as far as deep theological certanties... But, in this weird way, I kind of think that there's not much need to know anything beyond that. My former self would have been terribly worried to read someone thinking in such a way. LOL...
|
|
|
Post by ashmeadskernal on Nov 10, 2009 18:06:35 GMT -5
I guess I still have the need to be specific with myself about my own beliefs (or lack thereof). I no longer have any burning need to convert others to the "right way to live," and no burning need to be perfect, but the curiosity still remains, ever so dim at times, but still there.
I totally get the not feeling the want to believe in God, well, depending on the time of month... But, which God? I have no need for a God who is so authoritarian that he maps out an entire "plan for my life", complete with rules and regulations. But... there are other possible God(desse)s. An equal partner God would be nice. A friend God. Not a master God, nor a father God.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Nov 11, 2009 17:22:54 GMT -5
I'm beginning to understand why writer Don Miller no longer calls his beliefs "Christianity." He calls them "Christian spirituality," because when people say the word "Christianity," what they often really mean is "hyper-fundamentalist Reformed Protestantism." I don't mean to sound defensive-- but really, it is difficult to hear. KR ~ have you seen this article: www.alternet.org/story/143844/is_blind_faith_in_god_and_the_bible_a_modern_invention/?cID=1362985#c1362985?I don't know why I have such a hard time reading Karen Armstrong's stuff ~ I've been working at "The Spiral Staircase" for over a year now and am only halfway through. I've been tempted to just give up at times ~ but for some reason, I don't. I keep picking it back up and reading for as long as I can stand it ... which isn't very long. I've been thinking lately that I just *don't feel like* believing in God right now ~ or even trying to figure stuff out like I used to. Guess I'm burned out, huh? But then there's this something (I don't know what) that keeps me going back and thinking and rethinking ... ugh. It never used to be a chore to ponder deep things. Vyckie, I hadn't read that particular article, but I am familiar with Karen Armstrong's work. As far as not feeling like believing in or even thinking much about God, that is a very normal feeling. Jeff Zondervan's website on spiritual abuse has a whole library of articles about issues like that. www.spiritualabuse.com/I certainly would recommend continuing to give the whole thing a rest, until and unless you feel yourself ready. *hugs*
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Nov 11, 2009 23:38:56 GMT -5
General ramble: I know that for me, speaking as one who still believes in God, I am fundamentally changed by my experience of spiritual abuse... in that, the further I come out of that way of thinking, the less able I am even able to entertain a deep bible study or a big enthusiastic push towards some area of theology. I have a deep aversion to opening my bible to study anything, and I have a deep aversion to exploring theological views, etc. I can totally hack stuff like Donald Miller, Anne Lamott, etc, and I love listening to interviews and thoughts by various thinkers on various religions...but whatever that thing was that used to be there (and Vyckie has described that thing so well herself, that deep and enjoyable need to dig out and uncover and discover and seek)....? It's almost entirely gone right now, when it comes to theology. I want to care...I just don't. Yes.. well I'm 11 years out of the QF fundamentalist mindset and an even less interested in "deep bible study" than I was before. If it was burnout then there was never any bounce back. I just can't read any of it without either my past programming popping up or some other horrible reality. My pre-schooler was recently given a children's bible by a relative. He wanted me to read it to him.. I opened it up to the story of Joshua and I just could not do it. Of course it's a children's bible so all it talks about is how Joshua blew the trumpet and the walls of Jericho fell down, YAY!! But I can't read that story without thinking of what followed--utter genocide in which the Israelites slaughtered every man, woman, child and infant in the city as instructed by God. I simply have no way to read these things and see any good in them at all.
|
|
|
Post by whatkindofwoman on Nov 12, 2009 11:17:04 GMT -5
I've been thinking lately that I just *don't feel like* believing in God right now ~ or even trying to figure stuff out like I used to. Guess I'm burned out, huh? Just one woman's opinion here...but...I believe God's love for you can "handle" that you're burned out. I'll need to start apologizing soon for my "harping on one string", that is to say, my frequent references to Jesus giving a harsh tongue-lashing to the Pharisees...for burning (sincere) people out.
|
|
|
Post by anatheist on Nov 12, 2009 13:06:28 GMT -5
Yes.. well I'm 11 years out of the QF fundamentalist mindset and an even less interested in "deep bible study" than I was before. If it was burnout then there was never any bounce back. Agreed. I'm not an atheist because I was hurt by patriarchy or fundamentalism. I'm not "angry at god", not are my beliefs a reaction against something. Personal circumstances made me start asking the questions but they didn't control the answers. So I don't think that a return to exploring theology/religion is necessarily a sign of "recovery". I don't think anyone meant to imply that, but the "if and when you're ready" meme is often also used as an indicator of recovery. ** KR- it's been of interest to me what the term "Christian" should denote. (And when I talk about "should", I'm not trying to force you into a box... but it's evident that using that term means such a huge variety of things to different people). Christian is a label used by fundamentalists, by Fred Phelps, by nominal Deists who go to church a few times a year, by those who believe that Jesus' love is the most important aspect, by tongues speakers, by you, by my parents, by millions of people in thousands of denominations and sects. Maybe by so many people that the word has lost a meaning. We've had the No True Scotsman discussion here, and it applies both ways. My mother keeps saying that my ex-husband isn't a "real" Christian... yet despite his assholery and sexism, I have absolutely no doubt that he trusts in Jesus as his god and savior. He's a Christian AND an asshole... must one cancel out the other? And after all, if there's truth in Christianity, how terrible for every believer to have to fear that bad behavior will cause them to lose their salvation- didn't we reject the salvation by outward appearance that QF subtly endorses? And even in the abuse and control of QF, there's some real desire to do god's will, to serve god and please god, even if it's been twisted to something bad... and they believe they're doing the right thing just as strongly as you believe they aren't. So the simple word "Christian" doesn't say everything worth knowing about a person's beliefs, IMO.
|
|
jeb
Junior Member
Posts: 97
|
Post by jeb on Nov 12, 2009 16:22:21 GMT -5
athiestBB said: My mother keeps saying that my ex-husband isn't a "real" Christian... yet despite his assholery and sexism, I have absolutely no doubt that he trusts in Jesus as his god and savior. He's a Christian AND an asshole... must one cancel out the other? And after all, if there's truth in Christianity, how terrible for every believer to have to fear that bad behavior will cause them to lose their salvation- didn't we reject the salvation by outward appearance that QF subtly endorses? And even in the abuse and control of QF, there's some real desire to do god's will, to serve god and please god, even if it's been twisted to something bad... and they believe they're doing the right thing just as strongly as you believe they aren't. So the simple word "Christian" doesn't say everything worth knowing about a person's beliefs, IMO. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thank you for that comment athiestbb. I really got a chuckle at what you said about your ex (He's a Christian AND an asshole. And here's a somewhat lengthy essay on the same thing that speaks to that point in even greater detail. It was said by a person who experienced some terrible problems thanks to some crazy folks in the church of Rome. shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/09/on-real-christians-and-christian.htmlHere's a brief quote from that piece. Well okay, a bit more then brief, eh? : It has also meant being targeted by a man calling himself a Christian, being wantonly smeared nationally by people calling themselves Christians, receiving rape and death threats by people calling themselves Christians, having people calling themselves Christians come to my door and dump garbage on my lawn, and eventually being left with no job and no income, all because of people calling themselves Christians. I don't want the responsibility of deciding who's Christian and who isn't—and I can't imagine why any Christian would want to give that responsibility to an atheist in the first place. I already know that all Christians aren't like that—and everyone who said it to me knew I was well aware of that fact. But in the wake of large members of a certain segment of Christianity attacking me, most of the Christians I knew felt obliged first and foremost to distance themselves from the group that hurt me, and do it in a way that protected their idea of Christianity. Y'all be sure to appreciate each other. John
|
|