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Post by arietty on Dec 5, 2009 0:34:46 GMT -5
I can't help but notice that a lot of these people with fifteen or so kids are richer than most of us are... those are only the higher profile ones... Yes as I've frequently said you do not see the ones living in sheds and trailers and tents on the TLC programs or on the cover of The Teaching Home. Even Above Rubies doesn't feature their daughter who lives without running water or their other daughter who was living with 10 kids in ONE room on the front cover. They talk about how WONDERFUL and godly they are but we never see pictures of this, LOL. And that magazine did feature a variety of house situations unlike some which only have the prettiest, biggest ones on display. But ya know if you will just be submissive to your man he will earn more. I know Mary Pride used to preach that one (ironic since her family's income is her empire of homeschool books).
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Post by krwordgazer on Dec 5, 2009 2:19:48 GMT -5
Exactly. Mary Pride keeps wondering why Q/F moms who don't have enough bread, don't eat cake.
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Post by justflyingin on Dec 5, 2009 16:11:06 GMT -5
Vyckie, you certainly have a right to be angry at the "drive-by assault." As far as being angry at yourself-- I do hope you direct most of your anger at those who deserve it most -- the leaders and teachers who promote Q/F, and who tell well-meaning people (who only want to please God) that this way of living is the best way to please God. These people are making lots of money off books and recordings, in order to promote this travesty-- and people are falling for it Well said.
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Post by madame on Dec 6, 2009 18:02:38 GMT -5
What a great thread!
I'm thankful for a place like this where people are honest and you can say what you think. There are enough places where I'd just be told to ditch my wavering faith, and enough places where I'd be berated for allowing it to waver, and given some platitudes, like a band-aid.
Journey, You are so right when you say we should allow Christians to doubt and question their faith too. We are all too happy to hear people from other beliefs begin questioning them, but I think Christians tend to fear questioning their beliefs, lest they lose their faith. I've run into this lately, when I've tried to talk about my questions. Some Christians tell me to go back to basics. Well, I have a problem with the basics! Some Christians tell me I should get my relationship with God straight. Some say I'm just in rebellion.
The thing is, even if I may be rebelling, it's not a stubborn " I don't want to have anything to do with you", but it's genuine questioning of the God I believed in and the way to him that I had embraced. It's genuine doubt. It's facing the contradictions I had always smartly brushed away with the replies I was taught at Bible School.
The bottom line is, I'm not going to try and keep things going for the sake of keeping a faith that has lost it's meaning to me. I still haven't let go. I still believe there is a God. It's his character the claims he makes about himself, and the meaning of his word that I am struggling with.
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Post by madame on Dec 6, 2009 18:09:16 GMT -5
I watched the show on Youtube. Vyckie, I really enjoyed seeing you on screen I found a thread where Alicia Jeub tells more about what happened. It's heart wrenching. I can't understand how Christian parents would ever kick a child out of their home, especially to leave that child on their own. On one occasion, a father told me he might send his 16 year-old son away if he continued misbehaving and rebelling. Thsi teen was being very problematic, but the father had also made some decisions showing very little respect for his children, which aggravated the situation. I'm glad his wife, who is usually a very traditional-obedient wife, was ready to stand up to him if necessary. She was not going to let him kick out her son.
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Post by krwordgazer on Dec 6, 2009 18:55:56 GMT -5
The thing is, even if I may be rebelling, it's not a stubborn " I don't want to have anything to do with you", but it's genuine questioning of the God I believed in and the way to him that I had embraced. It's genuine doubt. It's facing the contradictions I had always smartly brushed away with the replies I was taught at Bible School. The bottom line is, I'm not going to try and keep things going for the sake of keeping a faith that has lost it's meaning to me. I still haven't let go. I still believe there is a God. It's his character the claims he makes about himself, and the meaning of his word that I am struggling with. Madame, I think you are completely doing the right thing in questioning. On the theistic side, here are a few websites I have found extremely helpful in my exploration of these questions: This one is Wesleyan/Methodist and has a lot of good articles on the ancient cultures of the Bible, the question of inerrancy, etc. www.crivoice.org/index.htmlThis one is theological/philosophical, from a more liberal perspective, but still orthodox (with a little "o"). The author is dyslexic, so don't let the spelling errors put you off. www.doxa.ws/And this one is more conservative/evangelical, but has some very interesting thoughts on the most common questions: www.christian-thinktank.com/Hope you find them helpful.
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em
Full Member
Posts: 176
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Post by em on Dec 6, 2009 20:33:39 GMT -5
Finally got to see the episode. It was nice to finally get to see you, Vyckie and Angel and Grandma Lou. I feel like I know you guys after reading your story lol.
It was so sad though. And my goodness, seeing it like this just really makes it all look kinda batshit crazy. But then, I am some "unGodly" woman who doesn't want any kids and would never, ever believe that because I am a woman I need to act a certain way and do certain things and submit to a man, so the whole thing is just a totally different world to me. It just really saddens me to hear the young Jeub and Scott girls talking about how they want to pop out a ton of babies because that's all they've ever been told they can do is be a submissive wife and mother. There's nothing wrong with being either of those things of course, but I find it baffling that some people think that is the only thing a woman should do.
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Post by jadehawk on Dec 6, 2009 22:44:02 GMT -5
I just watched the episode on youtube, and it was nice to finally see and hear you guys.
I just wanted to say that the Cynthia Jeub made an interesting impression on me. The girl doesn't smile much, does she. Maybe she's just shy, but who knows.
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Post by margybargy on Dec 7, 2009 2:06:18 GMT -5
I watched the show on Youtube. Vyckie, I really enjoyed seeing you on screen I found a thread where Alicia Jeub tells more about what happened. It's heart wrenching. I can't understand how Christian parents would ever kick a child out of their home, especially to leave that child on their own. madame, can you provide a link to the Alicia Jeub discussion?
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Post by princessjo1988 on Dec 7, 2009 7:22:24 GMT -5
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Post by jemand on Dec 7, 2009 9:54:05 GMT -5
wow those posts are awful!
One of the other commenter's said something like "what, they have so many kids one less doesn't matter, just toss them out?" And that does seem to be what happened. They took her out to lunch and after said "nope, no coming home." I cannot believe it.
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Post by margybargy on Dec 7, 2009 11:19:29 GMT -5
Wow. Thanks, Jo. This part was just awful: " I was thrown out. I literally was taken to lunch, talked to by my dad, told I couldn't come home and that some of my stuff was in the car. I was told I could stay with my pastor and try to work things out or stay with my boyfriend and never have contact with my family again. I decided to stay with my pastor and did so for a week and we (my dad, pastor and I) counseled for a week or so and we came to somewhat of an agreement, regardless I wasn't allowed to move back in, I was told by my dad that he hoped I had someone I could go stay with, that I had to find my own accomodations. Now, I was 19, but I also had NO heads up of what to do. I mean, I just had to go figure something out. There was a point about a month later that I went to a retreat out of state and when I came back, had tried to reconcile even more with my dad and stayed at the house for about a week. I got the couch. There was already other kids in my room and I got the couch. The whole situation was hurtful and not handled very well.
My mom was not a big part of the whole process whatsoever."I can see a situation where you might have to kick a grown child out of the house. I cannot see a situation where you would kick a child out of the house ambush-style and without warning. That's a power play, and has nothing to do with protecting the younger kids. It sure sends a message though.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Dec 7, 2009 11:45:31 GMT -5
If I weren't so busy with my book, I would LOVE to write a post about the obvious connection between the three families featured on Born to Breed: all of us had daughters who "rebelled" (read: didn't worship their fathers), all three families took a different approach to the "problem." The Scotts lightened up, the Jeubs dug in deeper, and I quit. This is such an obvious connection ~ the producers of the show had to work especially hard not to make it the central theme of the program. And they could have done it if they'd have wanted to, because in my interview I spoke rather extensively about the heavy emphasis which QF/P places on the father/daughter relationships ~ I called it "emotional incest." But ~ I'm super busy, so anyone else want to volunteer to put together a piece? Something like: "It's about the DAUGHTERS!"? If you write it, I'll post it.
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Post by madame on Dec 7, 2009 15:08:33 GMT -5
can see a situation where you might have to kick a grown child out of the house. I cannot see a situation where you would kick a child out of the house ambush-style and without warning. That's a power play, and has nothing to do with protecting the younger kids. It sure sends a message though.
One problem with "adult children" in these families is that they are so sheltered and so controlled that you can barely call them adults. Especially the daughters, but some sons too. I'm amazed at how well Alicia has done!
One thing that struck me when I read the posts was that Alicia sounds more mature and gracious than her parents, who seem too full of self-righteousness to admit that sending her away the way they did was just plain wrong, unchristian, unloving, etc...
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Post by krwordgazer on Dec 7, 2009 15:16:16 GMT -5
I watched the whole video, and with the exception of Vyckie's sections, it creeped me out. I felt the whole QF thing was being presented in a pretty positive light. All that emphasis on the Jeubs' kids' birthdays, the zip line, the trampoline-- not all QF families have the kind of money the Jeubs clearly have, despite the father's insistence that he makes less than $40K/year. (We find it a struggle to do two kids' birthday parties a year-- and we can't afford a trampoline!) And the Scotts were shown water skiing-- while it was stated that Vyckie's family was "on the conservative end" of the movement-- like a useful excuse. I felt that the main message was, "Here's an interesting thing some families are doing. On the whole, it's a good thing. Here's one family that didn't find it a good thing-- but they were on the 'conservative end.'" Maybe just an anomaly. Maybe the problem was that they went too 'conservative' with it." I felt that a family which might be leaning towards going Q/F, might just make the jump because of this film-- or at least might contact recruiter Rachel Scott or read one of the Jeubs' clearly-being-promoted books. And I notice that nothing was said at all about the problems the older daughters had in the Jeub and the Scott families-- other than that there was a kid born out of wedlock and that caused a conflict. The show made having lots of kids look kind of fun, and I'm sure it is (except for the four loads of laundry a day!) -- but here's the problem-- the fundamentalist/patriarchy pill is buried in the middle of all that family niceness, just the way you'd bury a pill from the vet in a juicy piece of steak, so your dog will swallow the whole thing. . . It creeped me out.
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Post by margybargy on Dec 7, 2009 15:35:04 GMT -5
One problem with "adult children" in these families is that they are so sheltered and so controlled that you can barely call them adults. Especially the daughters, but some sons too. True that! Makes it even worse in my eyes. One thing that struck me when I read the posts was that Alicia sounds more mature and gracious than her parents, who seem too full of self-righteousness to admit that sending her away the way they did was just plain wrong, unchristian, unloving, etc... Also true. Alicia really sounds like a very decent, sensible kind of person. I don't know that I'd be so forgiving if I were in her shoes. I wouldn't trust my parents at all.
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Post by Sierra on Dec 7, 2009 15:44:15 GMT -5
One problem with "adult children" in these families is that they are so sheltered and so controlled that you can barely call them adults. Especially the daughters, but some sons too. I'm amazed at how well Alicia has done! In my experience, the boys are actually worse off. They don't learn any practical skills for taking care of themselves, other than maybe getting a job. But you can bet they're eating takeout and their homes are disgusting, because the daughters were the ones taught to do everything for the male members of the family. The boys grow up feeling entitled to have a woman do everything for them and then have sex, too.
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Post by jadehawk on Dec 7, 2009 17:08:19 GMT -5
thank you for the link, princessjo :-)
from the link:
well, that pretty much answers my questions about Cynthia Jeub. poor girl.
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Post by theothermother on Dec 7, 2009 23:27:46 GMT -5
There is one thing to take away from this tv show - do not, do not choose Quiverfull if you care about your oldest daughter.
All three oldest daughters had heartaches and struggles - suicidal depression, choices that led to teen pregnancy, family estrangement, etc. All of which were no doubt directly related to the Quiverfull lifestyle and doctrine the family lived. As an oldest Quiverfull daughter myself (8 younger siblings, home schooled, etc), I can tell you these things are not uncommon amongst oldest girls in the movement.
I am glad that Vyckie and Angel are in a better situation now. I am shocked and relieved Rachel Scott supported her daughter in her pregnancy and etc. The Jeub situation is sad, but far too common. Myself and some of my friends were threatened with being disowned over far less than teen pregnancy. Being willing to disown one of your kids shows how righteous you are - cutting off ties to "protect" the other children. Some of these people, like the Jeubs, wear this as a perverse badge of honor. I've also seen more than one case where a Quiverfull girl tried to take her own life. It's sad. Thank God I do not know of anyone who succeeded, I think it really is a desperate cry for help at that point, more so than a desire to die.
I also know of girls who have run away from these families in the middle of the night to escape horrible oppression and, in several case, sexual abuse. One of the dark secrets of this movement are the girls who are sexually assaulted by their brothers.
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Post by jadehawk on Dec 7, 2009 23:50:46 GMT -5
One of the dark secrets of this movement are the girls who are sexually assaulted by their brothers.
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Post by theothermother on Dec 8, 2009 0:04:17 GMT -5
It occurs to me that my last statement requires elaboration and is probably inflammatory. As it should be. Sibling sex abuse is a disgusting reality known to the leaders of the movement and yet they do nothing.
I personally know several girls who were victims of sexual abuse at the hands of their brother. Way too many cases.
The families do not react well. I've been involved in three cases where the family threw the girl out of the home for coming forward when she could not take the abuse any more - that's right, these people think their daughter is lying or that it is her fault. One of the worst stories involves a girl who basically got kicked out for the accusation, then her family decided they wanted her back to do housework, so they literally attempted to kidnap to get her back as a servant in their home.
Obviously, no one wants to believe this kind of thing can happen in any family, much less their own, but its pretty shocking how the parents react in some of these cases. Personally, I think you only choose this lifestyle if you have some form of mental illness. I know this is harsh, but please remember I come from a good Quiverfull family, so I am speaking of my own family, too, when I say this about mental illness and Quiverfull.
1 in 3 women experience sexual assault or abuse in thier lifetime. Those numbers are true across all groups. Being a good Christian Quiverfull family does not protect men, women, and children from sex abuse.
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Post by margybargy on Dec 8, 2009 7:38:45 GMT -5
One problem with "adult children" in these families is that they are so sheltered and so controlled that you can barely call them adults. Especially the daughters, but some sons too. I'm amazed at how well Alicia has done! In my experience, the boys are actually worse off. They don't learn any practical skills for taking care of themselves, other than maybe getting a job. But you can bet they're eating takeout and their homes are disgusting, because the daughters were the ones taught to do everything for the male members of the family. The boys grow up feeling entitled to have a woman do everything for them and then have sex, too. This makes a whole lot of sense actually. And it's not just fundie boys who suffer from unrealistically high expectations.
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Post by madame on Dec 8, 2009 8:53:19 GMT -5
Personally, I think you only choose this lifestyle if you have some form of mental illness. I know this is harsh, but please remember I come from a good Quiverfull family, so I am speaking of my own family, too, when I say this about mental illness and Quiverfull. Theothermother, I have to disagree with your statement that I have boldened. I come from a quiverfull family, and I don't believe my parents have any form of mental illness. I'm also the eldest daughter, the second of 10. I did my share of diaper changing, being "in charge" of one of my youger siblings, dishes, cooking, cleaning.... I resented some of it. I jumped at every oportunity to get away, and thankfully, my parents let us get away, even for the whole summer, when we were in our teens. My parents believed in allowing God to plan their family, and didn't use birth control. My father holds some of the other beliefs, like wifely obedience, strict discipline, father's blessing and so on, but he's not stuffy about it, if you see what I mean. I'd say he's a mild patriarch, too humble to believe he did it all right, and softening with the years. My mother is your perfect example of quiet wife who goes along with everything her husband decides. But I believe she had her say when we weren't around. I believe my dad learned to listen to her more and more, and she influenced him a lot. We went to school. Sure, we were "the odd ones", but nevertheless, we went, and our parents loosened their reigns on us as we grew older. My sisters and I have chosen our own husbands, and my brothers chose their own wives. There were two babies out of wedlock (two of my brothers had babies with their girlfriends), and my parents supported them and embraced the wives and children into the family. As the eldest daughter, I felt a lot of responsibility and a huge burden to be "a good example". I know that being one of the eldest means breaking the ground for the youngest to have things easier. I sowed, others reaped. I won some independence with tears, the others reaped it without having to ask for it. If my parents hadn't been so strict with us older ones, I doubt I'd be scarred by their choice to embrace as many children as they could naturally conceive and bring into the world. They were very strict even before having more children than are socially acceptable, so I don't put that down to being QF minded. On the other hand, I married the eldest of 9, 8 of which survived. My FIL clearly has a lot of problems, some of which are mental. Where my dad's the mild patriarch, he's the hardcore patriarch. Where my dad is teachable, he doesn't appear to be so. Where my dad has grown in respect and love for my mother, he doesn't appear to have done so. Anyway, what do I want to say with all this? I don't think that QF is a sign of mental illness or of abusive families, per se. I don't agree that it is a package that you buy into when you first choose to give your fertility to God. It really depends on what other teachings you buy into whether your family is happy and functional or not. Nevertheless, the 21st century approach, especially in the US, is very different. I grew up in the 80s-90s in Spain. My parents didn't have loads of money for books, so they went by the Bible and some theology, like Schaeffer. They read Mary Pride's "way home" and "all the way home", but they were already set in their qf ways by then, and my mom didn't agree with everything Pride had to say. Sorry for the length of this post....
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Post by jemand on Dec 8, 2009 9:58:21 GMT -5
It occurs to me that my last statement requires elaboration and is probably inflammatory. As it should be. Sibling sex abuse is a disgusting reality known to the leaders of the movement and yet they do nothing. I personally know several girls who were victims of sexual abuse at the hands of their brother. Way too many cases. The families do not react well. I've been involved in three cases where the family threw the girl out of the home for coming forward when she could not take the abuse any more - that's right, these people think their daughter is lying or that it is her fault. One of the worst stories involves a girl who basically got kicked out for the accusation, then her family decided they wanted her back to do housework, so they literally attempted to kidnap to get her back as a servant in their home. Obviously, no one wants to believe this kind of thing can happen in any family, much less their own, but its pretty shocking how the parents react in some of these cases. Personally, I think you only choose this lifestyle if you have some form of mental illness. I know this is harsh, but please remember I come from a good Quiverfull family, so I am speaking of my own family, too, when I say this about mental illness and Quiverfull. 1 in 3 women experience sexual assault or abuse in thier lifetime. Those numbers are true across all groups. Being a good Christian Quiverfull family does not protect men, women, and children from sex abuse. I wonder if on some level it is because the parents *know* they are treating these older daughters badly, like slaves, and limiting their possibilities, and the things they would want to do, so they think something like making up a story of abuse would be a valid and understandable response to what the parents have done to them? Which is why they insist it is a lie, even when their family structure not only restricts the girl's options educationally and career wise, but also puts her in a vulnerable situation where sexual and other abuse is likely as well.
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Post by hopewell on Dec 8, 2009 12:07:27 GMT -5
Seriously--the woman named her poor little boy LEVITICUS? ?? oy vey!
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