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Post by tapati on Dec 23, 2009 1:28:36 GMT -5
I got mine off iTunes for a couple of bucks
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Post by tapati on Dec 23, 2009 1:34:21 GMT -5
Janedoe, you make some excellent points but I find I get a little lost in the sheer length of your posts and get confused between quotes and your original text. I suspect I'm not the only one. Perhaps you can condense a bit and use the I or B buttons up above each message box to make it a little clearer for us old geezers? Thanks! For an actual quote box, there's a button next to the # button that looks like a page with an arrow that will enable you to create quote tags. Put your quote in between and you have a quote box in your final post.
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Post by tapati on Dec 23, 2009 1:35:18 GMT -5
Oh and, that's not an official moderator suggestion. I was made a moderator for the carnival only and I suspect Vyckie has forgotten to downgrade my status.
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Post by janedoe on Dec 24, 2009 12:43:28 GMT -5
sorry about that, some of that is due to I just don't know how to really respond here, and want to be a bit more detailed, because I do write against patriarchy [and the distortion of scripture] but I do not concur with the other extremes, and still feeling my way around here,
I was looking for the topic on women loving their bodies/and the scriptures used such as 'present your bodies a living sacrifice' but can't find that topic here...still looking,
and after some thought and prayer on this, believe I know now how to respond to so many of the topics here, because these issues are being addressed by women in the less extreme just as much--particularly on submission and what it means and what it doesn't. Its really about 'legalism' and how legalism has replaced Faith and Grace, grace meaning Mercy,
mercy meaning forgiveness based on Love--not enabling evil. There is a difference, and what is also important is that we aren't just seeing these issues just in those QF circles but we will be seeing them in mainstream-secular, in fact I work in advocacy on many of the same issues--particularly when it comes to confronting the lies and evils of cultural relativism, where tolerance to some of the worst forms of abuses such as FGMs and Slavery, is becoming normalized,
and women and children are falling in the cracks so to speak. I see where so much of these topics are intermixed with the bigger picture, so to speak....but they become extremely dangerous when faith is mixed in--meaning,
how scriptures have been deliberately twisted and taken out of context to support and to perpetuate some of the most horrid forms of abuse and human right abuses, and they seriously need to be confronted and the lies exposed. God simply is not in the 'abuse' business,
but there isn't enough people, speaking loudly enough, on this....AND because of this reason, the cults are not only growing, they are getting larger audiences, because the doctrines are not being challenged to the degree that they should be. Sure the secular challenge them,
but we need voices, from Within the Faith community, to challenge and confront them as well--because IF we had that,
we might have fewer victims, of these cults. That is where I'm coming from on this...not just religious cults either, there are non-religious cults that are Just as dangerous, that lead to mass followings and they leave death and oppression in their path, actually I feel they are probably just as dangerous if not more so, than many of the more zealot religious lot. What they all have in common however, is how they prey on women.
Predator ideologies, they can use religion or politics, but they are predators, all the same. [they even have predators in feminism--but that's another topic, another time].
Jane
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Post by tapati on Dec 24, 2009 14:58:51 GMT -5
The thing is, no one will keep reading if your posts are all this long. We're having conversations and your posts come across as lengthy monologues. Try editing heavily before you hit the post button. Figure out where you can cut some words or paragraphs.
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Post by anatheist on Dec 24, 2009 17:20:54 GMT -5
Jane Doe, I am finding it distasteful that you are using this forum to give sermonettes about Christianity.
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Post by runawaybride on Jan 20, 2010 9:57:05 GMT -5
I think this quiverfull thing would have less adherents if there was an organized opposition from the main stream christian community as well. However, that's one of their beliefs... a lot of these people.. that " mainstream" Christianity is dead... even apostate.
I remember that there were couples on the boards i was on who would intentionally go into mainstream churches to evangelize for Quiverfull and related beliefs. They'd come on the boards and patronize and backstab the mainstream church members, because after all, they were oh so holy themselves and needed to clear their spotless souls of the muck of the world ( sarcasm here).
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Post by janedoe on Jan 25, 2010 8:36:06 GMT -5
Just a quick note because I'm not going to bother 'explaining' because it will just get Twisted anyway... you're right about the use of apostate and mainstream church, that isn't because I am attempting to persuade or any holier than thou as I've been accused of, [seems the trend here], but because I just for myself, have some real conflict with a lot in mainstream Christianity and I am still working through some of that--no need to go into here, nobody cares. I apologize Vickie if I got into a rant, I didn't begin that way, and was simply sharing some things I learned in my search for answers that I thought might be encouraging /or healing to some here, that was all. They were attacked and of course I got defensive, I should have just walked off right then and there...but I didn't. Look, the thing is, I didn't know this was an Anti-God blog or Anti-Christian blog, I thought it was anti-Patriarchy blog. I apologize for not paying more attention, I would not have shared IF I had known that. It wasn't my intent whatsoever to persuade faith here, in fact I'm not 'religious' per se, I don't go to a church, and have had my Own battles with dealing with patriarchy and religion--why I did share about nature and what I found interesting about some things in Bible that I found that aren't taught, that to me, showed a very strong Female side, of God, that is Empowering to females and no, not about birth or about marriage, more nature related. As for what I wrote about birthing/motherhood and that Patriarchy/dogma is not just in religion, was so twisted and misunderstood that I won't even bother to go and explain, to hell with it. I didn't know really how to respond there because I was trying to Be sensitive to women who Do have many children, etc., so I probably didn't write as well on that regard. I am an advocate for Women's Autonomy---any one who ever read my blog would Know just how Stupid to accuse me other wise is, or any of the other bullshit that was spewed at me. So, well, anyway...sorry Vickie, didn't mean to cause a flame war, obviously I did, won't happen again, you don't need it and that isn't why I came here. I do read here, because you've answered some questions that I have had, for me, just in reading... so, I'm reading, not posting. IF any want to know what I am about, I blog here: homesewersneedleworkersunion-hsnwu.blogspot.com/I think, you might be a tad surprised, I'm not the neo con bigot you think I am or any of the other bull that I was accused of being, I'm just searching a lot of things just like many here, also, a survivor of abuse and not in a great marriage now but financially I'm not able to leave yet, and oh, he's not a Christian. He's a patriarchal asshole, I met in none other than College, a very Intellectual patriarchal asshole, so if you Think that there isn't misogyny and patriarchy in academia, Think again. I live with the shit ever damn day. And he Works at a University---highly academic, I could tell you some stories there. LOL Jane
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Post by janedoe on Feb 11, 2010 3:06:43 GMT -5
doing some research for work and thought I'd go ahead and add this, as it pertains to the reason why I do not support many of the policies against birth [nor those policies Forcing birth], and well, let's challenge some Bourgeois Myths, article below [one of many I have] anyhow, there's a Huge difference, between Reproductive Rights and then Population 'Control', see that little KEY word there, Control--
tell you what I told the Maoists in a debate on this, if Population Control is what you are after [debate on China's horrid policies towards women] then tell you what, get out the damn Vasectomy Knives and get your asses busy, other wise, Hands off women's wombs, and control your OWN damn reproduction.
Its really hilarious, how those who Spew technology [the Bourgeoisie] and controls, are the Last, to demand MEN take the initiative, no, it's Always, about some nation-state/policy OR culture, controlling women's wombs and their sexuality. That is bottom line.
Because for women of color, especially, Population Control is and has been about Eugenics, especially towards the 'undesirables', meanwhile the bourgeois sees no problem in over consumption, stripping resources, in Technology polluting water, land in other countries, diversion of water/dams that have cost thousands of lives,
so, yea, there's more to it than just some crazy anti-technology nut. I"m not opposed to technology, but it is sadly the reality that the technical 'elites' who yes, pass policies All the time, that exclude or assist in the oppression of women, and THAT was my point. So, just to clear a few things up...article below [this also happened in many other nations and Still, happens to the lower incomes and women of color, including in this nations--also other forms of abuse, like testing of unsafe drugs, on poor children, etc].
It helps to read more than the liberal propaganda of the West, which is imperialist anyway. Right, Left, they pretty much the same, and though their patriarchy may differ in means, the End is the same, for women.
HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES
Akhter, Farida, Resisting Norplant. Women's Struggle in Bangladesh Against Co-ercion and Violence, Dhaka (Bangladesh): Narigrantha Prabartana 1995 (142 pp.).
In 1985 Bangladesh became the site of a pre-introductory clinical trial of Norplant. The "trial" was implemented through a policy of coercion, violence and unethical science. Soon after the initiation of the trial, women's groups and active individuals began their struggle against this coercion and violence, and over the years Bangladeshi women have built up a history of resistance. Farida Akhter documents this history in a chronological sequence and stresses its importance for the international women's health movement.
Mintzes, Barbara; Hardon, Anita and Hanhart, Jannemieke (ed.), Norplant: Under her Skin, Delft (The Netherlands): Eburon 1993 (122 pp.).
Norplant: Under Her Skin contains six articles that describe the use of Norplant in Indonesia, Finland, Thailand, Brazil and Egypt. The articles tell about the experience of women from these different societies with Norplant and how this long-acting contraceptive has affected their well-being, sexuality and daily life. It appraises Norplant from the perspective of a woman's overall emotional health, social life and sense of well-being, and arrives at a conclusion at odds with the "medical" perspective that dominates the discussion of this drug.
Hartmann, Betsy, Reproductive Rights & Wrongs: The Global Policies of Population Control, Boston: South End Press 1995 (388 pp.).
Feminist Betsy Hartmann provides clear explanations and information on the link between population and development, on how population control advocates have appropriated feminist and environmental language, and on the internationalization of anti-abortion movements, AIDS and contraceptive research, immigration and the environmental movement. Hartmann argues that rapid population growth is a symptom, rather than a cause, of problematic economic and social development. She further argues that the world population control movement is hostile to the true needs of women, and exploits the issue of women's rights to achieve its ends.
Hartmann, Betsy and Standing, Hilary, Food, Saris and Sterilization. Population Control in Bangladesh, London: BIAG Ltd. 1985 (43 pp.).
In Bangladesh, population control has become an intensely political issue, involving a full scale attack on the urban and rural poor. After giving a short history of population control in Bangladesh, the link between food aid and Bangladesh's sterilization campaign is uncovered. The book describes the coercive incentive system which is used, how women are given the choice to be sterilized or starve and how the concern with population control has diverted attention and resources from maternal and child health services. The idea that overpopulation is at the root of Bangladesh's problems is questioned, arguing that the problems are due to underdevelopment and inequality.
Whelan, Robert, Whose Choice: Population Controllers' or Yours?, London: Committee on Population and the Economy 1992 (36 pp.)
The widespread alarm which has been caused by the growth in world population has led to programs to reduce birthrates in many developing countries.
These programs are implemented in the name of women's health and freedom of choice in matters of family size. However, there are serious questions as to how free Third World parents really are if they want to have more than the officially permitted number of children. Programs to limit population growth in the Third World involve propaganda, the use of bribes and threats, peer group pressure and even physical coercion in a way which would no be acceptable to the Western taxpayers who fund them.
Kasun, Jacqueline, The War Against Population, San Francisco: Ignatius Press 1988 (225 pp.).
Dr. Kasun shatters the false dogmas that humanity is multiplying at an unsustainable rate and that unless population is controlled by every governmental and private method, mankind will face disaster. She explains the history of the population control movement , reveals the false economics and the model ideology behind population control, the false claims of "sex education", and U.S. governmental involvement in family planning around the world.
Mosher, Steven S., "In Peru, Women Lose the Right to Choose More Children," in The Wall Street Journal, Friday, February 27, 1998.
Steven W. Mosher describes the massive sterilization campaign implemented by the government of President Alberto Fujimori. Coercion, targets, bribes and threats are all part of the procedure of the campaign, leaving women deprived of their fundamental right to chose more children.
The Lancet, "Women in the world" (editorial), Vol. 346 (no. 8969), July 22, 1995, p.195
Words such as "equality" and "empowerment" for women are commonly stated in population programs. But the question "Equality and empowerment of what?" is raised when reproductive needs are placed at the top of the international health agenda. This editorial makes the claim that the ideals of "gender equality" and "women's empowerment" have become the social tools by which the U.N. intends to meet its population control quotas. It raises questions about the fundamental assumptions grounding the reproductive health and family planning movement. It decries what it calls the "new colonialism" of the international women's health agenda, and its reduction of equality to the right to reproductive health.
HISTORY OF POPULATION CONTROL
Hodgson, Dennis and Cotts Watkins, Susan, "Feminists and Neo-Malthusians: Past and Present Alliances," in Population and Development Review 23 (3): September 1997, pp. 469-523.
Feminists and neo-Malthusians are neither natural allies nor natural opponents but occasionally there have been big similarities in their immediate goals. The relationship these two groups have had throughout history, their early alliances, divisions and ideologies is looked at carefully, as well as the present status of this relationship.
Kasun, Jacqueline, The War Against Population, San Francisco: Ignatius Press 1988 (225 pp.). (Currently being undated)
Reproductive Rights, is not the Same, as Population CONTROL.
Jane
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