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Post by km on Feb 16, 2010 9:24:42 GMT -5
And wrt bashing of public schools. That's also not the issue. No one is suggesting that the same problems that surface in homeschools don't also surface in public schools. The services and programs offered by public schools across the country are vastly different (which is a function of the fact that so much of their tax base is local. There are often excellent public schools in relatively affluent areas and worse ones in poor areas). This is obviously not a completely generalizable rule, but it's fairly consistent.
The fact remains, of course: The moment someone introduces a plumbing rod as "disciplinary" mechanism in a public school, that someone goes to jail. It has happened in homeschools to the point that people have died. Does individual freedom not end somewhere?
I think comments about "how bad the public schools are" are a deflection here, and I am not sure why people are getting so defensive. Did I come in suggesting that this stuff is happening in your homeschools? No, I did not. But they are happening in *some* homeschools, and possibly more of them than anyone would like to admit. And I think it's fair to ask why that is--and whether or not certain regulatory mechanisms could prevent the abuse.
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 16, 2010 9:25:44 GMT -5
I was dead serious.
And if you don't like my posts, ignore me. I spent 12 years being told how to think through shaming techniques- both in person and on a message board - and I'm not about to be told how to think by a stranger on a board again.
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 16, 2010 9:26:49 GMT -5
How about you get off my case?
No.. better yet.. I'm going to ignore you from now on.
Geez.
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Post by km on Feb 16, 2010 9:28:13 GMT -5
I was dead serious. And if you don't like my posts, ignore me. I spent 12 years being told how to think through shaming techniques- both in person and on a message board - and I'm not about to be told how to think by a stranger on a board again. Right, then. Okay. Personally, I'm okay with whips and chains that are consensual. The issue when there are *children* involved is that they aren't. And the issue with Dobson would be the hypocrisy, not the consensual sexual activity. Just saying.
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Post by km on Feb 16, 2010 9:30:09 GMT -5
How about you get off my case? No.. better yet.. I'm going to ignore you from now on. Geez. Uh, your comments are not subject to debate like everyone else's? Welcome to the internets.
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 16, 2010 9:33:43 GMT -5
If this is a " topic police" argument, then I humbly submit that the rabbit trail of how nice it would be to have community this and community that is where it went off topic, not my saying that no, that all won't necessarily work and here's why, using public school problems as an example. If this is a "KM is better and smarter than runaway and thinks right and runaway doesn't" issue" well then, I refer to my previous post. I spent years being told how to think and it ain't happening again. I agree that the Pearls suck. I dislike Dobson. I'm onboard with the general gist of the program here. So now do I pass intellectual inspection?
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 16, 2010 9:35:48 GMT -5
How about you get off my case? No.. better yet.. I'm going to ignore you from now on. Geez. Uh, your comments are not subject to debate like everyone else's? Welcome to the internets. \ No need to be condescending and patronizing, I've been on the internets since the Delphi Days. The forums that I have frequented for the last five years would be jumping in with me right now in a pile on of you for being sanctimonious.
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Post by km on Feb 16, 2010 9:44:51 GMT -5
If this is a " topic police" argument, then I humbly submit that the rabbit trail of how nice it would be to have community this and community that is where it went off topic, not my saying that no, that all won't necessarily work and here's why, using public school problems as an example. Okay, could you please tell me *where* is the disagreement? No one ever said there was a foolproof solution. I have expressed doubts about most of the possible policy solutions, as have most others. I have not offered a formulaic plan to combat child abuse. No one said "nothing bad ever happens in public schools" (I write about disability at my blog. Do you think *I* would suggest that knowing about the kinds of abuse that kids on the Autism Spectrum suffer every day in public schools [i.e., "restraints"]??) I don't think it's *my fault* that you're feeling defensive about your particular homeschool. On other blogs I frequent, it's not considered a big deal to go, "Hey, you're derailing, srsly." But if I'm going to be honest, I think the problem is that you're making straw man arguments that have nothing to do with anything that has been said here. I don't think I'm "better or smarter" than anyone here, but I'm going to say something if I disagree with something you've said.
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Post by km on Feb 16, 2010 9:45:31 GMT -5
Uh, your comments are not subject to debate like everyone else's? Welcome to the internets. \ No need to be condescending and patronizing, I've been on the internets since the Delphi Days. The forums that I have frequented for the last five years would be jumping in with me right now in a pile on of you for being sanctimonious. It was called sarcasm.
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Post by km on Feb 16, 2010 9:49:08 GMT -5
\ No need to be condescending and patronizing, I've been on the internets since the Delphi Days. The forums that I have frequented for the last five years would be jumping in with me right now in a pile on of you for being sanctimonious. It was called sarcasm. P.S. This argument is about as effective with me as the ubiquitous "I have supporters in backchannel." My point is, "STATE YOUR POINT." Stop relying on the ad hom tactics.
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 16, 2010 9:58:52 GMT -5
well, the Ad Hominem "attacks" are warranted, when the subject in question is acting like they hold the only keys to truth and direction for a subject, which they do not.
And I put " attacks" in parenthesis. Calling you a stupid poopy head is an attack. Telling you that you are acting like a know it all controlling diva when you are doing so is not.
Oh.., and please do realize that, in your insistence on having the last word in this argument, you are derailing way more than anyone could possibly have accused me of in my original posts.
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Post by margybargy on Feb 16, 2010 10:57:11 GMT -5
Okay. Wow.
I've got a random thought I'd like to share.
I take it for granted that most homeschooling parents have good motives. However, there are those that could use a homeschooling situation to mask their activities. How should that be dealt with?
Man, I hope I don't start some big argument here. That's not the point of my post, for sure. Apparently this is a very sensitive topic. While my preference is for my child to attend public school, I can think of circumstances where I'd pull her out and homeschool instead. So I'm not anti-homeschool at all. For me it's a practical matter. How do I make sure she gets the best education possible? I've got no ideological attachment to any particular setting or method.
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Post by km on Feb 16, 2010 11:17:00 GMT -5
Okay. Wow. I've got a random thought I'd like to share. I take it for granted that most homeschooling parents have good motives. However, there are those that could use a homeschooling situation to mask their activities. How should that be dealt with? Man, I hope I don't start some big argument here. That's not the point of my post, for sure. Apparently this is a very sensitive topic. While my preference is for my child to attend public school, I can think of circumstances where I'd pull her out and homeschool instead. So I'm not anti-homeschool at all. For me it's a practical matter. How do I make sure she gets the best education possible? I've got no ideological attachment to any particular setting or method. Yes, thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to get at. I'm sure most do have good motives, but what do we do as a society about the ones who do it to hide abuse? And I feel the same way. I would prefer public school, but I would consider homeschooling under certain circumstances (i.e., extreme bullying, etc.). Like you, I see it as a practical matter that has to be decided according to differing circumstances (what's best for specific children and families).
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Post by km on Feb 16, 2010 11:18:22 GMT -5
Or, another way of putting it, if you're a homeschooler with good motives, then this post was by no means about you.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Feb 16, 2010 11:26:30 GMT -5
Okay. Wow. I've got a random thought I'd like to share. I take it for granted that most homeschooling parents have good motives. However, there are those that could use a homeschooling situation to mask their activities. How should that be dealt with? Man, I hope I don't start some big argument here. That's not the point of my post, for sure. Apparently this is a very sensitive topic. While my preference is for my child to attend public school, I can think of circumstances where I'd pull her out and homeschool instead. So I'm not anti-homeschool at all. For me it's a practical matter. How do I make sure she gets the best education possible? I've got no ideological attachment to any particular setting or method. margybargy ~ excellent point. I certainly had the very best of intentions with regard to homeschooling. However, from my perspective now, I can see that it would have been a lot harder to take the abusive, neglectful QF path that we did if our children had been attending public school. Also, for all my good intentions ~ there was really no accountability ~ so schooling the children was one area which I could get away with letting slide. I am ashamed to say that by the time I enrolled them in public school ~ they were all so far behind. Too far behind for the older girls ~ they had to find alternative routes to catch up and complete their education. The younger ones have caught up ~ and in some cases surpassed their classes ~ but it was a real challenge and I wonder, if they were able to make such rapid progress ~ what might they have accomplished if they hadn't started so far behind their classmates?
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 16, 2010 11:41:21 GMT -5
Perhaps I have a bias in this...my closest homeschool associations are with two families who are not, first of all, fundies. One is an extremely wealthy family where the father is a corporate attorney, the other is a middle class family where both parents are very intelligent. Both families have produced incredible, intelligent children, the one family, they are all grown and married or in college. Both families would also be very insulted if a social worker made them toe some line.. not because they are abusive, but because they are so far above the norm.
I should realize that not all homeschooling families are like this
I would have preferred to have homeschooled my daughter. However, I can't work the way I have to work and do it right, so I don't do it. I don't feel the school challenges her, and I feel that the social climate of the school is very oriented to " dumbing down". However, this is what I can afford.
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Post by margybargy on Feb 16, 2010 12:08:19 GMT -5
Okay. Wow. I've got a random thought I'd like to share. I take it for granted that most homeschooling parents have good motives. However, there are those that could use a homeschooling situation to mask their activities. How should that be dealt with? Man, I hope I don't start some big argument here. That's not the point of my post, for sure. Apparently this is a very sensitive topic. While my preference is for my child to attend public school, I can think of circumstances where I'd pull her out and homeschool instead. So I'm not anti-homeschool at all. For me it's a practical matter. How do I make sure she gets the best education possible? I've got no ideological attachment to any particular setting or method. margybargy ~ excellent point. I certainly had the very best of intentions with regard to homeschooling. However, from my perspective now, I can see that it would have been a lot harder to take the abusive, neglectful QF path that we did if our children had been attending public school. Also, for all my good intentions ~ there was really no accountability ~ so schooling the children was one area which I could get away with letting slide. I am ashamed to say that by the time I enrolled them in public school ~ they were all so far behind. Too far behind for the older girls ~ they had to find alternative routes to catch up and complete their education. The younger ones have caught up ~ and in some cases surpassed their classes ~ but it was a real challenge and I wonder, if they were able to make such rapid progress ~ what might they have accomplished if they hadn't started so far behind their classmates? Yeah. I have a very high opinion of myself and my abilities. But I think teaching my kid might be a stretch for me. I'm easily distracted, need structure. If we got off track, we'd probably stay that way. Or I could also see myself getting super competitive and intense about it. I just know if I were to homeschool, I'd need an outside force to nudge me back in the right direction. You had an incredible challenge what with the number of kids, and their diverse ages. Like everyone, you were doing what you thought best at the time. A word of encouragement for you: My dh's public school education was not good. He graduated high school barely knowing how to add fractions. In his late twenties, he decided he wanted to be an engineer. He went to community college, got into a good engineering school, made the dean's list, and is now a successful engineer. Education is a process that never stops. Your kids still have the opportunity to catch up. The future is wide open.
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Post by margybargy on Feb 16, 2010 12:21:19 GMT -5
I would have preferred to have homeschooled my daughter. However, I can't work the way I have to work and do it right, so I don't do it. I don't feel the school challenges her, and I feel that the social climate of the school is very oriented to " dumbing down". However, this is what I can afford. My dd is only three now, but the "dumbing down" is one of my worries for the future. OTOH when I was in school, I was in a "smart kid" clique. So I actually faced a lot of pressure to achieve academically. Toward the end of high school, I burned out big time. Not sure what my point is there. I guess it's just that it's important to be vigilant and willing to make adjustments. One year the problem might be too much socializing. The next it could be too much academic pressure.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 16, 2010 12:47:05 GMT -5
" On pages 23-24 Dobson recounts being flogged on a regular basis with a girdle "with a multitude of straps and buckles" by his own mother; at the end, he states "Believe it or not, it made me feel loved." I am quite sure there is a woman in a back corset with a whip somewhere in his entourage who is well paid for her service and silence. Okay, sorry, again, but that was one of the most troubling examples of Dobson's endorsement of child abuse IMO. Does it need to be made into a joke? KM, I know I'm kind of new to this forum compared to you, but it feels to me that you are trying so hard to control this thread - where it goes and what we are discussing. Aren't you always free to steer the conversation back to what you're interested in without chastizing those of us who enjoy following the rabbit trails of our imagination? And I didn't see that comment as insensitive to physical punishment. I think she is absolutely right that people who were raised with physical punishment crave it in their sex lives. Not saying that's good or bad, but just reality. Can we lighten up a bit and just let people be who they are?
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Post by km on Feb 16, 2010 12:47:34 GMT -5
What do dd and dh stand for?
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Post by musicmom on Feb 16, 2010 13:04:10 GMT -5
As far as the conversation about community childcare, I do think it was relevant to the discussion.
We were talking about whether it is possible to monitor families who might be abusing their kids - whether homeschoolers or not. We talked about the fact that much abuse that goes on wouldn't be picked up by school people anyway (certainly, not the way I was abused as a kid).
My point was that the traditional nuclear family is a pretty safe way to abuse kids and there is really no way to prevent it or find out about it - unless it is the real obvious kind of abuse, like what happened to this girl.
If we really want kids to be able to grow up safe from all abuse (emotional and psychological too) we might someday have to say bye bye to the sanctity and absolute privacy of the nuclear family.
I thought - KM - that this was what your main concern was with this thread, so that's why I brought it up. Admittedly, it will not happen anytime soon if ever (and I have major reservations about it also), but I do think it was a valid point.
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Post by km on Feb 16, 2010 13:18:39 GMT -5
musicmom: I also think it's a valid piont, but I hated to see the thread derailed by arguments about it since it's unlikely to ever happen. I also agree that the sanctity of the traditional nuclear family has to be questioned, but I also worried about people being turned off as soon as they saw the word "Marx." But that's beyond my control. Mostly, I just regretted getting into an intractable debate about something that seems so unlikely, especially in a hardcore capitalist country such as the US.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 16, 2010 13:31:55 GMT -5
KM, Well, at least I am in good company with the founder of this site hearing Marxist ideas coming out of my mouth - right Vyckie? And I do think that political systems are VERY relevant to the whole QF discussion. It can be very neatly argued that having wives behave in the QF way practically enables capitalism to be possible - in that we have a completely unpaid yet smiling and totally committed workforce - taking care of the kids and house so the man can go off to work in industry. Without women playing their part in this scenario (QF or mainstream), capitalism cannot survive. That is why conservatives are always pushing "family values". Once I figured this out, it got rid of a shit-load of guilt. I suddenly thought "OH!!! It's not about God! It's about MONEY!" They just use God and the guilt that goes with it, so that the capitalistic machine can keep churning. You are right, of course about our country. Maybe I need to move to Sweden .
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Post by susan on Feb 16, 2010 15:01:05 GMT -5
Runawaybride, I agree with you that with all of the community-stuff we were talking about -- community kitchens, community laundry (you're right that this would only work in urban areas where a bunch of people are in easy walking distance of the same neighborhood center), and community child care -- would need to be totally optional.
But, KM, I honestly think the above idea is a feasible answer to your concerns about a few individual homeschoolers abusing their kids. Rather than having mandatory interventions, what about a whole bunch of optional community services which families can partake in as they choose?
Even neighborhood bartering centers, where neighbors could offer up their skills in exchange for help in areas where they're not skilled? Really, the possibilities are endless!
I think this would lead many families (including my own) to become more neighborly and community-oriented. And, as Vyckie mentioned, it's often the lack of outside feedback that can cause parents to go off the deepend with their childrearing practices.
So, what we'd be looking at here, with more neighborhood-based living, would be NOT a total elimination of risks or total monitoring of families -- but, rather, a REDUCTION of risks because, the more appealing it is for people to get out of their homes and socialize with their neighbors, the less stress they will have from feeling isolated, and the more feedback and supports they'll have to avail themselves of.
Even Vyckie previously mentioned that Warren had a lot more stress and pent-up energy after they moved out of the town where there was so much in walking distance, and he could handle all the shopping himself, and had daily conversations with outside people.
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Post by susan on Feb 16, 2010 15:22:59 GMT -5
I honestly think free (or very low-cost) public transportation would be a real plus in getting everyone more community-focused.
My girls and I just love going out and riding the bus different places, and we meet so many interesting people. But now that I have one child (and soon to be two) who can't ride free anymore (after age 5 they're half fare), those fares really add up! It's too much cheaper to drive.
It's rough because, environmentally-speaking, it would be just wonderful for people to use public transportation as much as possible. But most people with cars just aint gonna do that, because cars are just so much more convenient, and a faster way to get from point A to point B.
And so, there's just not enough support for public transportation (at least not here in Kansas City), which makes it more expensive for the people who use it, and less convenient because it's not economically feasable to expand the times and locations that are covered by bus routes.
This may seem way off-topic for some -- but I'm just thinking about non-coercive ways to get more families out there rubbing elbows with the larger community. I certainly don't want to outlaw cars or anything -- but I keep wishing we could get enough taxpayer support to make our public transportation totally rock, so that more people, including more families with lots of children, will actually CHOOSE to leave their cars at home and hop on the bus.
Of course, I'm not implying that every bus driver is qualified to screen their passengers for child abuse. Again, I'm not pushing community-involvement as a total safeguard against child abuse. I just feel that it will alleviate stress by increasing people's interactions with the outside world, and make everyone's life a lot more interesting, as well as providing parents with an abundance of feedback ...
Some feedback is obviously not going to be edifying, because some folks just come across as critical, prying busybodies. But there are also some wonderful people out there who will tell moms in difficult circumstances "I've been where you are, and this too shall pass. Just hang in there!" Or have some truly helpful advice about how they handled a particular situation.
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