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Post by mothersson on Mar 19, 2010 6:18:43 GMT -5
I have noticed that the Walk in the Way blog took off info on Michael Pearl.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 19, 2010 6:29:48 GMT -5
I have noticed that the Walk in the Way blog took off info on Michael Pearl. Wow ~ you're right ~ it's all gone. I was reading the comments on the Pearl post on her blog yesterday ~ there were quite a lot of knowledgeable posts with direct quotes from Michael Pearl ~ and the encouraging thing is that so many of the comments critical of Pearl came from Christians ~ and even conservative, homeschooling Christians. It was apparent too, that walkinintheway was giving thoughtful consideration to the criticism and even agreeing on several points that Pearl's teachings are unbiblical and unhealthy. So ~ I wouldn't be surprised if walkinintheway took the thread down because she finally saw that her endorsement and support of NGJ was misguided and wrong. If so I commend walkinintheway ~ and I encourage her to go a step further ~ write a post detaling her change of heart and publicly declare her opposition to Pearl's teachings.
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Post by D on Mar 19, 2010 7:19:44 GMT -5
Now the NGJ Facebook page says the interview is off but the story may still run. Is this the first national coverage the story has received?
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 19, 2010 7:31:17 GMT -5
Found this on No Greater Joy's facebook page:
Email from NGJ that had the email from CBS:
"I’m sorry to do this, but we are NOT going forward with the interview with Mr. Pearl. We are reporting the story tomorrow, but we are just using our correspondent to tell the full story. We don’t have time for a live interview to follow. I’m hopeful we’ll continue to follow the story and there may be another opportunity with Mr. Pearl down the road. Please keep in touch," Thanks, Lauren
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Post by mothersson on Mar 19, 2010 7:54:25 GMT -5
Well, I watched the whole Early Show, and they did not cover the story today.
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Post by D on Mar 19, 2010 8:24:05 GMT -5
It's still on in KC - does that mean I can stop watching? I'm so bored! Looks like the Pearl story got bumped for Sandra Bullocks love woes. That's really sad. I mean, I'm just assuming, since that's the story they ran the same time the Pearl interview was supposed to happen.
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Post by mothersson on Mar 19, 2010 11:00:53 GMT -5
I really think we in large numbers should call the Early Show to tell him there is a strong demand (that many people want the story to be covered) so that the larger population knows of this story and the implications of beating children in the manner that Lydias parents did. I just called. The secretary said that the producers are discussing it when I asked when the story would be aired. I do believe that some children will be spared the kind of treatment that many of Pearl's students dole out to children. She said it might be on tomorrow, just keep watching. Thing is, I cant as others watch it every day, and I for one don't have a DVR player. Therefore it would be helpful to have the date planned. Please lets tell the Early Show that this is important. I didn't think to say that many people find the protection of children even more important than a movie star's affairs.☺ (212) 975-2824
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Post by grandmalou on Mar 19, 2010 11:53:48 GMT -5
out of the thousands who have read and benefited from the Pearl's ministry, I hardly think that 2 tragedies where people supposedly were "followers" of their ideas is proof of anything. how can beating your children with plastic plumbers pipe be a good thing? how can beating happiness into your children be a good thing? As a grandmother who had to watch children become more robot-like as the years passed, I absolutely hate this teaching of the entire QF/P mess...absolute, instant obedience, indeed! Also myself a survivor of an alcoholic, abusive mother...far from QF...even now, at almost 68 years of age, the nightmares sometimes rear their ugly heads. Broken spirits, broken bodies, broken hearts, broken little people! How, in the name of GOD, can anybody support this kind of torture???
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Post by usotsuki on Mar 19, 2010 12:19:52 GMT -5
By saying it was in the name of God... -__- *rages*
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Post by musicmom on Mar 19, 2010 13:12:47 GMT -5
theearlyshow@cbsnews.com I just called and encouraged them to reschedule the interview. They gave me this email address in case anyone would like to share their opinions/comments on the Pearl issue. They sounded interested.....
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Post by musicmom on Mar 19, 2010 13:16:07 GMT -5
how can beating your children with plastic plumbers pipe be a good thing? how can beating happiness into your children be a good thing? As a grandmother who had to watch children become more robot-like as the years passed, I absolutely hate this teaching of the entire QF/P mess...absolute, instant obedience, indeed! Also myself a survivor of an alcoholic, abusive mother...far from QF...even now, at almost 68 years of age, the nightmares sometimes rear their ugly heads. Broken spirits, broken bodies, broken hearts, broken little people! How, in the name of GOD, can anybody support this kind of torture??? I think Vyckie explained it really well: we got scared shitless that we'd be damned to Hell as neglectful parents, or that our kids would roast in Hell if we didn't expect instant obedience. What's a few licks in comparison with eternal torment, after all? Gee, if Pearl is right, even a child dying here and there is just collateral damage compared to all the "joyful" kids he is getting into heaven!!! I hope you all can hear the sarcasm dripping from these words Oh, it just makes me feel ill.
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Post by timestep on Mar 19, 2010 14:55:10 GMT -5
Lurker coming out to share the e-mail I just sent. This story has touched something deep in me, and I'm glad to do what little I can to help out. To whom it may concern: Through the blog postings and forums at nolongerquivering.com/, I've been following the sad story of the death of Lydia Schatz. I understand that the Early Show is currently discussing whether or not to air a story (and possibly a live interview) with Michael Pearl, whose methods of child discipline have been linked to Lydia's death. I feel strongly that a portion of the responsibility of her death lies at the feet of Michael and Debi Pearl and the teachings they offer through their No Greater Joy ministry. I also feel strongly that media coverage of their teachings will cast a much-needed spotlight on the dangers involved in their philosophy. As a fellow Christian who, as my mother jokingly reminds me, was spanked three times a day (by hand, never with an implement) and generally supports spanking, I am appalled at the recommendations the Pearls offer for "training up" children. As a young woman whose friends and siblings are reaching child-bearing age, I feel an urgency to expose these methods for what they are before families unknowingly adopt them. Please do run the story, and please ask the Pearls tough questions about their work. I refer you to nolongerquivering.com as an excellent background resource. I also suggest in particular that you look at Michael Pearl's "laughing" response at www.facebook.com/notes/no-greater-joy-ministries/laughing-by-michael-pearl/378945952575. Thank you for your serious consideration of this topic, and I hope to see this story run soon.
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Post by dangermom on Mar 19, 2010 15:52:13 GMT -5
I went ahead and wrote an email to the Early Show as well, expressing hope that they would still do the segment and take the time to do careful research into exactly what the Pearls advocate.
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Post by walkinintheway on Mar 20, 2010 14:19:57 GMT -5
Hi it's me, I decided to take a few days to rethink things. I still do not really know where I stand on my support of NGJ- but I wanted to apologize for handling things so wrongly. It was not my intention to come off prideful. The "walkinintheway" name was actually an accident that I talk about on my very first post (on my blog ). It was supposed to be a reference to Deuteronomy 6 about teaching your children as you walk BY the way- so it was supposed to be walkinbytheway- but i screwed it up and called it walkinintheway. I am in NO way trying to say that I am in "the way" and others are not. I obviously still have alot to learn. I was not aware that there were so many people out there who had been abused in the name of "following" NGJ. I am not sure why I felt so strongly about "supporting the Pearls". I guess before I was saved I always wondered what I was missing because they always talked about being joyful, but I never had that joy. One time they had a letter in the magazine from another lady that had anger problems and realized she wasnt saved, it really got me thinking. MANY OTHER THINGS brought me to the the realization that I was not saved. I guess for some reason I felt loyal to them. I guess that was silly, obviously it is Christ I should be loyal to, not the Pearls. On one hand I feel like I can glean things from their magazine, on the other I feel like I should just cancel my subscription. There are plenty of other resources out there. I am pretty confused right now. My reasons for erasing the post were twofold. 1) I didnt know what I was talking about and I was overwhelmed, I didnt know how to respond. 2)people were bringing my testimony into it. I am willing to learn, I would like to get to know you and have you get to know me, I am happy to expound on my story for you, but please do not tell me I was not saved when I think I was! No offense intended but I know when I was saved. I don't care if anger is on the list of 7 deadly sins or Mr. Pearl's list of deadly sins, I was just making the point that God, in part, used that magazine at that time, for me. I now realize that is not a good enough reason to support the Pearl's I am just asking to please respect my testimony.
Again, please forgive me for my "drive thru link drop off" as I believe someone called it, that was wrong and I am sorry. I qam sorry for any pride that was displayed. I must admit that when I first saw this page I thought it seemed like a lot of feminists but I think I realize that most of you are just trying to free people from the chains of legalism...I realize many of you have been hurt. I will most likely not be posting anything controversial on my blog anymore, basically for now I will be sticking to homeschool topics, curriculum, books etc. Maybe in the future i will decide to say something about a change of mind- but for now I just need to figure out what I do think. Thanks for reading this. By the way, I have set up an email at walkinintheway@yahoo.com, I am happy to talk here, but sometimes I talk better to one person at a time so feel free to email me if you want. Thanks again. Megan
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Post by Sierra on Mar 20, 2010 15:02:04 GMT -5
I'm glad you're back, walkinintheway. I think the internet can make strangers' posts appear more hostile than they are intended. We are a quite wary of trolls here, given the sensitivity of our subject and how personally we feel every Scripture that is flung at us (not to say that you did this, but that it's happened before you arrived).
I've had to change my views quite a bit since leaving fundamentalism, for the sake of my own survival. In my more lucid moments, I try to remember that every view held by a person is the product of a story (and is more than likely continually changing). It was stunning to me in college how increasingly my views were dismissed as 'feminist,' 'liberal' and 'atheist' as though those words made me a static entity who had always had these opinions and had (presumably) imbibed them thoughtlessly at the hands of my parents. Nothing could be farther from the truth. (Indeed, hearing about my 'privileged, elitist liberal' character from my own father threw me for a massive loop, as he obviously knew firsthand that I grew up in a staunchly Republican household full of guns and Bibles and lived for years off beans and frozen hotdogs, working for minimum wage from the age of 14.) There are ways in which I differ with all three of the above labels. I don't think any one of them defines me. And yet people I knew in college began picking fights with me to get at my supposed 'angry elitist liberal feminist' core, and people I met afterwards embarked on dramatic evangelical quests for my soul, as though I'd never heard the Gospel before. It's easy to assume we know one another's history because we know a little of one another's present opinions.
For this reason, I, for one, am not doubting your salvation or sincerity. Your willingness to change and re-examine your positions tells me that you are likely a very good parent. I am interested in reading your future posts.
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Post by walkinintheway on Mar 20, 2010 15:26:56 GMT -5
Thanks Sierra I appreciate your support, and I agree that labeling people takes away from the things that make them an individual. My husband and I tend to say that we are conservative Christians, yet we don't fit into that mold because he has long hair, i tend to like my hair above the shoulders, and I hate skirts. But many "typical" conservative things we DO agree with. I am starting to realize that I need to worry about my own walk, read the Bible that I feel convicted to read, pray for people, be a friend, if I meet some like minded people along the way, great. If I meet some great not so like minded people, awesome!
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 20, 2010 15:49:42 GMT -5
walkinintheway ~ thank you so much for coming back to NLQ with this explanation and apology. Now it is my turn to eat humble pie ~ which I am very glad to do ~ because my initial assessment of you as a very prideful and condescending person was quite wrong and now I regret responding to you with such short-tempered impatience ~ and I'm all the more impressed that you bothered to come back and respond after I blasted you like I did. After following the way you handled the comments on your blog ~ publishing the comments of those who disagreed with you and thoughtfully considering their reasons ~ and being willing to reevaluate your own position ~ you really earned my respect and admiration. I think you will feel quite at home NLQ as one thing that we tend to have in common here is the shared experience of thinking we actually knew something ~ only to later discover that "truth" is quite a lot more complicated than what we had been led to believe. As to your testimony ~ that is a very personal, subjective thing ~ and I think you are right to resist anyone who would try to tell you whether or not you were actually saved at the time and in the way that you believe. When it comes to your own experience, YOU are the expert and anyone who pretends to know more about it than you is arrogant beyond belief! Anyway ~ welcome to NLQ ~ I do hope to hear more from you in the future. Your opinions and perspective are welcome here.
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Post by walkinintheway on Mar 20, 2010 17:13:09 GMT -5
vyckie- I can't tell you how much I appreciate your encouragement and btw, i really deserved your blast so it's ok. I think that the past several days have been tiring for all of us no matter which "side" we are on or if you sit the fence like I do. ;D
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Post by Katala on Mar 20, 2010 17:54:36 GMT -5
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Post by mothersson on Mar 20, 2010 18:55:34 GMT -5
There are a few available titles to order free on Paper Back Swap. It is an online book swapping club. It costs noting to have a book sent to you. It only costs shipping when a book is being sent to someone else. I have got some college books free there. Also, if a book is not available like the "The Complete Book of Christian Parenting and Child Care: A Medical and Moral Guide to Raising Happy Healthy Children " it can be put on the wish list, and when it come in, an email is sent to the wisher. www.paperbackswap.com/index.php
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Post by Callunatoo on Mar 25, 2010 10:11:25 GMT -5
This is Calluna, I have an account set up, but can't seem to retrieve my password?? Not sure if anyone saw this perspective. It's written by a blogger named waterlilly mommypress.com/waterlilly/2010/02/18/spanking-in-anger-isnt-the-problem/"All Christian parenting authors that I’m aware of say “never spank in anger.” They seem to believe that it is only physical discipline performed in anger that results in abuse. That children who are unintentionally murdered by their parents due to physical punishments were murdered because the parent was angry and was unable to see or care about the damage being done. I believe this is a fallacy and a smokescreen. Whenever a child dies, like Lydia Schatz and Sean Paddock, there is lots of internet discussion about these issues. And invariably the people who believe spanking to be Biblically commanded pull out the “never spank in anger” clause and use it as a shield to block themselves from the notion that they could ever find themselves in this situation. They use this clause to prove that the parenting experts who espouse these methods could never be culpable in these situations. After all, if a parent is using the rod “correctly” and “never spanking in anger” then they believe there is no danger. I’d like to propose that we have NO idea the state of mind of the parents who were punishing Lydia or Sean or countless other children who are abused every day with these methods. NO idea. We’d like to believe that they are monsters because this makes us feel safe from finding ourselves in that situation. But I don’t think that we have information that supports that they are all monsters. Some are, sure. You can give me countless examples of abusive parents who perform degrading and unspeakable acts upon their children, but as of today I have seen no information that indicates the Schatz family performed any acts outside of “normal” To Train Up a Child-style punishments. Several news articles I’ve read about the Schatz case indicate that the plumbing-supply-line whippings went on for several hours. To me, this would indicate that it is more likely that the parents were calm rather than angry. I’ve been angry with my children. I will even confess to being in a rage with them, as much as I’m ashamed to admit that. But that anger burns hot and FAST. The anger is not sustained for hours and hours. If you are brave enough to do it, imagine yourself with a piece of plumbing supply line in your hand and your child stretched out on a bed ready for a whipping. Even in your angriest moment, would the whipping last more than a few minutes? Wouldn’t your rage burn out? Even if you are heartless, wouldn’t you stop because you grew tired? Anger and rage are exhausting, and they don’t last long. A truly selfish, heartless person would lose interest and want to be doing something else like watching t.v. or working on a hobby. They would stop the whipping episode out of disinterest. I want to suggest that only two types of people will beat their children for hours. The first type are sadists who enjoy hurting others. They get a thrill and a pleasure in inflicting pain. The second type are parents who desperately care for their children and their eternal salvation. They believe that this world is but fleeting, and that their children’s eternal salvation is the most important parenting goal. And you know what? There are lots of us in that camp. Those of us who know Christ want to live eternally with him and with our children and loved ones. We do not want our children to be eternally damned. We do what we believe to be right in raising our children to know Christ and his offer of salvation. Some of us believe that – as much as we would like to – we have no ultimate control over whether our children choose Christ. We must be faithful and model Christ-like behavior to our children. We must be faithful and guide them in the ways they should go (discipline). We must be faithful talking about God and his ways and laws in our daily lives. We must do all these things, and then leave the results in God’s hands. Others of us believe that parenting “correctly” can all but guarantee that our children will become Christians. These parents desperately love their children, and will therefore go to almost any length to make sure their parenting is “correct.” Some of these parents find authors and “experts” who also believe that parenting is an equation – do A and B and your result will be C. The “experts” ideas resonate with them, and these parents begin to diligently apply A and B because they desire the promised C for their children. Sometimes A and B are not life-threatening concepts. Sometimes A and B are things like, “Never, ever, ever allow your child to decide what’s for dinner. You are the boss.” Sometimes A and B are issues that can be life-threatening in some, or all, situations. Recent parenting advice like “Maintain four hour intervals between breastfeeding sessions” can sometimes be life threatening. This advice results in Failure to Thrive in some mother/infant pairs. Other instances of A and B are found in punishment advice available in many books written by “Christian experts” like Fugate, Pearl, et al. Michael Pearl’s insistence on a child’s complete surrender before punishment is stopped can lead to life-threatening situations. Lydia Schatz’ death is a horrific example of this. Based on what I’ve read and what I know about parents and our desire to raise Godly children, I do not think Lydia’s parents hated her or were even trying to injure her. They wanted to parent “correctly,” and they believed that exerting total control and seeing surrender in her were the only ways to ensure that she had a chance for salvation. Unfortunately, Lydia’s early life and adoption likely played a role in how she responded to physical pain and punishment. (KatieKind gives an excellent discussion of attachment disorders in adopted children.) Her parents killed her in their desire to save her from eternal damnation. They believed Michael Pearl: that the only way to save Lydia was to exert total control over her and to see a repentant heart in her. The problem wasn’t dispensing physical punishment while being angry, the problem was the belief that ANY parenting method can save our children from eternal damnation."
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Post by janedoe on Mar 31, 2010 23:58:41 GMT -5
The Irony of this entire thing is: 1. The QF philosophy and other fundamentalist & moderate Christian beliefs [and Islam and other patriarchal religions] is that children are a mandate from God, Allah, etc., that it's a SIN for a Woman to say NO to sex, to say NO to having children, to say NO to men period. It is a SIN for a woman to have control over her body, children are mandated by God for 'her' Eve punishment, etc etc etc 2. The lack of reproductive rights in numerous [Christian and U.S.A. supported policy nations] of women has of course resulted in mega populations of, none other than starved vulnerable children. 3. Those children cannot be adopted, or those that can, only to the rich... 4. Those children are Trafficked into Sex Slavery--and for Domestic Work slavery [fact] and for Labor Slavery, such as, Blood Chocolate. Other's are trafficked and forced into Warfare as combatants and sex slaves, this is in All religions [patriarchal] and nations, across the board. 5. It is the rich and business oriented [secular] who Pay to RAPE these children or to exploit their labor, poor folks ain't the ones doing the paying to rape/exploiting, they simply don't have the money--as far as the INDUSTRY of CHILD SLAVERY IS CONCERNED. 6. Our Prison Industrial Complex houses numerous Minor children [see Amnesty International] including for non-violent crimes, leading the increase in drug cartel gang recruits. Child Abuse sanctioned by none other than the state. 7. Children were sacrificed in communist nations such as [one example, another would be girls forced to prostitute in Japan, China, now days in Columbia and elsewhere] Greece, during civil conflicts, over 45,000 children were taken and sent to Balkans and starved TO DEATH. This is just one example, it seems like women, children are the blood sacrifices for Power, to the gods or God or to whomever, to Corporations, to Clients including Sex Tourism [supported by business conventions, commerce, banking, and politicians, etc] just about anywhere on the globe. 8. The majority of our goods are Blood Goods made by forced child labor, cases in China where children were found chained to work areas...from Clothing to Rugs/Carpets to Chocolate...Children are good Cheap LABOR, no wonder the Religions and Power Structures of Patriarchy love forcing more to be born... however, 9. Government aid programs are radically cut [including in EU countries] and are mostly fought by none other than Pro-Children/Force Birth advocates, to Punish those women who, have Sex, the Unpardonable Sin...especially if she enjoys it. [that's only the Male privilege right] Leaving thousands of women and children vulnerable to Exploitation and Especially Sexual--including right here in the U.S. of A. The SEX industry is the fastest growing industry and the most powerful--world wide, from porn to strip bars to prostitution to trafficking. There are more powerful lobbyists and lawyers to appeals court judges who fight to protect Porn/child porn and Pedophile rights [NAMBLA and Butterfly Kisses--by liberals mind you, not just fundies] than there are for fighting for Women's Rights against Rape and Gender Hate Crimes. [fact, Animals have more rights] 10. More cases of adopted foreign children who are beaten have closed adoption possibilities in other countries, eg. Romania...leaving those children ripe for exploitation. 11. While programs to Empower women are cut, industries and corporations [often supported by patriarchs] give thousands of dollars to assist families who have children by Scientific methods, such as having 8 kids at one time...these usually upper middle class families are treated like royalty, while the poor single mother is viewed with contempt. Odd, no, it's just Good ADVERTISING, again, children being exploited, for profit. 12. While birth control is not even supported by insurance, Including Union Insurance [because hey, socialism and labor is for equality when it comes to Viagra, an insurance paid privilege because it's Vital that a 90 year old man get a hard on, while Women, tough--need birth control, use your own money, that's Equality for ya...and don't even get me Started on the Joke of the Male Health Insurance Plan. Women need NOT apply. 13. While birth control is not accessible to millions of low income women worldwide [including here in US] there are other women who have the privilege of Paying for Low income women of color in other nations, such as India, for giving up children...it's big business, surrogate poor women, for the rich. Meanwhile, Women DIE in high numbers during Childbirth in India [one example] for not having maternal care--this is true in many Christian supported mission nations where such as in Liberia women are Told it's God's will if they die--and they do, on church pews, no medical, Nice eh... 14. Cuba has one if not the Lowest maternal death rates in the world--where, the US has one of the highest for low income women of color/low income in the Developed nations. 15. Children, especially Girl children, are forced into marriages where they are Raped with Impunity, in numerous Islamic nations--and in some Christian nations/regions, in Africa, for example. Meanwhile, the secular government officials sign Trade Agreements [and kiss the hands of officials who Deny Divorce Rights to 8 year old girls, such as in Saudi and Yemen--Bush signed the Trade Agreement with Oman, trade as in SLAVE LABOR, Obama is no better...it's one big Boys' Mighty Dick club, and of course, Girl children and children pay. Ain't Patriarchy and the 'gods' just beautiful?] 16. Children are abused, sexually abused in Foster Care in This country, in fact the numbers are quite high--the government has full immunity protections. Many children are also by the court Judges ordered [well their mothers/or fathers in rare cases] to go to KNOWN pedophiles in this country--women will have more chance of Losing children to Child Protective Services for not having adequate daycare OR for not having a clean house--while men, can and often do, get by and even get special visiting rights and counseling, for their weakness, in pedophilia, because it's just a poor man's needs. . The girl is 13 years old and already messed up. The grandmother wants custody, can't get it, she's too old so they say, but daddy has visiting clearance, go figure.
17. There are men who kill their wives and serve maybe, for rape even less, 5 years -- there are teens who knew someone who killed a parent for abuse [actual cases] and are serving LIFE, in ADULT prisons, in USA, for Felony Murder. Guess it's too bad the Pearls weren't 16.
This isn't even a Fourth of it...
and there are tons of photos, evidence, this travesty isn't just about QF or the Pearls, this is a Social and Global epidemic, a Disease,
a Human Disease...that has been going on since the days of B.C., for gods, goddesses, God [not that He required it but religion has butchered and raped children under the claim that God is on the side of big brother dick, sorry to be blunt but why pull any punches]
and the secular aren't any better nor hardly innocent.
Children are Commodities, for Profit, for Sex, and for
Vampires.
It's that simple,
now, HOW much money did the Pearls rake in on those child beating books? 1.8 million?
Another child sacrificed--if not for ritual sacrifices for blood power in governments [oh need I go there, do some research] or for cult compounds where Man is the Gateway to God, of course--if little ten year olds sleep with him, to the boys in Greece to the boys in Afghanistan [fact--boys taken and forced into male prostitution, see RAWA],
do we Really think, the Media, will do any good?
This is about blood money--always has been. That's the most Ironic and Disgusting thing about it, because in our homes, we ALL have blood goods,
blood of Children.
It won't change, until we change. It's not just the Pearls, it's the Worship of Authority..in All it's forms. The worship of Men, Male Systems, and Greed.
In solidarity,
Jane
bad karma = ability to critique across the board without prejudice only against one
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Post by sigaliris on Apr 1, 2010 11:27:56 GMT -5
I think this is a pretty awesome post, Jane. You really laid it out clearly. I've always been kind of puzzled, even when I was a good Catholic, by the assertion that Christianity was great because it put an end to child sacrifice. I could see for myself that children were sacrificed to all kinds of idols in the Christian world. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that Christianity put a different face on the practice.
Not to say that Christianity did nothing for the vulnerable--some Christians helped the weak even when their institution failed. And ultimately, ways of looking at the dignity of human beings developed in the Christianized culture, ultimately leading to somewhat better treatment of children and other marginalized beings. But was that a direct result of institutional directives? I doubt it.
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Post by janedoe on Apr 1, 2010 17:49:09 GMT -5
I've always been kind of puzzled, even when I was a good Catholic, by the assertion that Christianity was great because it put an end to child sacrifice. I could see for myself that children were sacrificed to all kinds of idols in the Christian world. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that Christianity put a different face on the practice. Dear Sigaliris, I have hesitated to say anything here, how much I will expose I am not sure yet. I have been finding many answers, to Why I was lead here, to Why I fought against God for so many years--I had always thought it was strictly women's human right issues but I knew a lot of it was due to the child abuse I suffered that had a lot to do with the abuse by men in my life. My brother too-- what I didn't know, Sigilaris, was how the Ritual Abuse in my childhood tied into Paganism and Catholicism, though I am not sure of all the details as to who was party--I was very young [prior to six though the abuse from one adult lasted into adulthood and there have been 'watchers' since then...I am now aware of, and how this all ties into the spiritual realm, I am still getting answers]. Much of this, whether one receives it or not will really depend on how much they believe in the Spiritual realm and it's Parallel and Connection to the Physical realm and especially in relation to authorities and power. It is global, it is also a thing of time. There is one Strong force working here--on this forum, I know who it is, and it's a Very strong one-- it works like this, they do the wounding, then, their co-parts do the recruiting, there are also watchers, and they promise liberation, but the goal, is to finish off the damage, to alienate us from God, the most High God. To turn us against Him. This is NOT only in religion, the reason we see it in the political and other secular systems is that in the Spiritual, the principalities work all over the place, Particularly where Power and Government is concerned-- when Religion, gets tied into Political Office, which it does, because Religion of itself becomes institutionalized and forms it's own hierarchy--this is NOT a mistake, this is the intent from Spiritual level. The OT says we are not to revile the 'gods', but we can, speak truth, from the Word of God. Some of the forces, are female, or of female nature...they aren't all male. They go back to the B.C. era--prior to the days of Noah, that's all I will say on that matter. When it comes to the Catholic church--as you mentioned, it is NOT of a requirement of God, to sacrifice children...never has been--however, due to Spiritual Dominion, depending on 'what 'god' or 'goddess' the region/ancestors have worshiped, that opens the door to all types of abuses, there is actually another force, that believe it or not, is working over the QF and similar fundamentalist movements--that is in the Spiritual realm. There is a Reason--that often the Victims are from other nations--look at the history of beliefs in those nations, you can connect the dots--the same is true in regards to Trafficking of girls/boys worldwide. Blood sacrifices, for POWER. Also, not just for power, sadly due to the blood libel--meaning, God said, if blood is shed, blood will be required, see Cain and Abel. This is due to justice--the earth herself will vomit out people when there has been mass bloodshed--that is why, Thou shall not Kill, not just thou shall not murder... in the spiritual, these forces can 'mask' themselves as angels of light--this is why, being in dark, we do not see, why God is blamed, when in fact, it isn't God. However, due to us, being in the tree of knowledge of good and evil, due to us [Adam & Eve] choice to be 'like the gods', that is what the Serpent said--we all are under these things--where there is good [just a mask over evil], there is always evil present. That is why, in churches/religions there can be good and evil both-- God sent Jesus, to be THE blood sacrifice rather than demanding US to be a blood sacrifice--that is the Cup, Jesus spoke of, in all blood sacrifices, called libations, there was human blood or animal blood [usually human] mixed with wine, in the physical, but there is huge spiritual reasons and I am not informed on the why here--however, these forces are still at work today. This is why God said, to the Hebrews, they would NOT eat meat with blood [in Acts Paul said not to eat animals strangled], nor mixed wine/libations. God gave Strict commands against these rituals... the belief is that these rituals no longer exist. FALSE, not only that, the forces are still here, they still work, they still give power, globally, why God said, Thou shall not worship other 'gods' [He didn't Deny their existence, the sons of God, the fallen sons of God, etc], and that we should not serve them NOR do their ways. The hard thing is that God's people can be sacrificed [why bad things happen to good people], see book of Daniel, what they were Doing with those children, in first two chapters. This is where it gets hard to discern--why does God allow this? Free will, one thing, another is spiritual laws that I don't totally understand yet, some I do some I don't, the only thing I understand is that Jesus, in His sacrifice for us, has shown me that He knows..what it is, to be abused, by His stripes we are healed...stripes that are stripes that slaves have, we are redeemed. What is hard for those of us who have suffered ritual abuse as children, is that the damage can be so layered, like an onion, and the constant triggers AND continuing abuses, makes it very difficult to sort through the forest. But I am getting answers, and I know, God Himself, does not abuse children. I didn't always know this however...I still struggle with this a lot. I've struggled a lot with Why God allowed what happened to happen, due to the harms it caused me, the ritual abuse I know, had ties to Satanism...though I don't know to what extent, I also know, it was for somebody, to get power, my family, father's side, work in government, my birthplace, Washington D.C. That is all I'll say on the matter...but I know enough. And I think I know Why--I was not the only one...I am finding. But I can tell you, that what is happening today--what is being revealed, there are still dark forces, that are working, to set up, a system--it's like a two faced coin. It's also, a testing of hearts...many will fall away, all in all, it really boils down to this, what God will we serve? We either love Him or we don't, no matter what happens to us--bottom line is this: Jesus, is the Only Son of God, who offered Himself for us, rather, than demanding children, to be sacrificed to Him... that's the ONE difference--between them all...why I will put my trust in Him. I used to have nightmares about a cup, with two elves, when I was a small child, I now know, what that cup represents. One thing about the sacrifices, is that the end goal, is to take the heart... the souls, why many did brain removals [interesting connection there, Venus and Psyche, the horrible lobotomies that were done to women, to control them--good always has evil present, not all psychology is good], and heart removals, the Mayans and Aztecs and other ancients did those--all over the world, children whose heads were cut off while dancing in the maize--2012, pay attention. Read Daniel, Revelations, all the OT, it's there...the son of perdition, is being revealed, sitting in the Temple, to those who have ears, let them hear. Figure out, what the temple is? It's all about Dominion...they'll call evil good, and good evil...like the days of Noah--the earth corrupted, the violence and God was Grieved that He created man...woe to women in those days Jesus said, many will be deceived. Daniel said, many will be purified, the wise will understand, the wicked and foolish will not. IF we don't keep the knowledge of God in our minds, our choice--He'll give us over, it's really about, what we Want, do we want Love, or power. [and fear] In solidarity, Jane
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Post by janedoe on Apr 1, 2010 18:07:23 GMT -5
As to the Catholics, do some study--on the Roman-Greek rituals, prior to the Catholic church--then go back further, all the way to Mesopotamia,
with OT, the Romans prior to Catholics/Christiandom [Justin} did have major wide witchhunts--
before there is power/transfer, from my studies, there has Always been, a huge blood spilling of women, a butchering,
and it's always combined with monetary-gold...
and political power, colonization, etc., at the Same time--God also works,
where there is good there is evil, or where there is evil, there is good. Sadly,
living under it, is not so easy, to just wipe away with explanations, it is the Spiritual damages,
that only God can heal. IF we turn to Him, not to religion, to God...He is faithful. Also, many who were killed, accused of being witches,
were no witches, they were women of God, who were dangerous...to the power structure, Why? Because of the power of prayer...that,
and, the OT says, God also removes the righteous, before the hour of temptation...to preserve their souls. This is hard for the natural person to understand,
but then, again, this all boils down to whether or not, one believes in the spiritual realm and the ancients.
Love,
Jane
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