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Post by rosiegirl on Apr 22, 2010 23:48:13 GMT -5
Jane, I'm having a hard time you know much about the new healthcare bill, or that you've even read it to begin with. Or anything about Medicaid.
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Apr 23, 2010 7:48:42 GMT -5
Jane Doe, when I attempt to read your posts, they make my brain hurt. I know that you have a lot to say and that you are passionate about your cause (as we all should be because we are, afterall, women), but you put too much into your posts; sounds like you're trying to tackle many issues at one time. For the love of all that is good, focus on one or two things and quit trying to bring every injustice done to man and woman in one post. You know what? We're all doing the best we can. Listen or re-listen to John Lennon's song, "Revolution" and listen to the lyrics and take them in. We ARE all indeed doing the best that we can in our own way. We all come to the table with different baggage, experience, gifts, talents, education, etc.
If you're here to say that women get the shaft in pretty much everything (in almost every culture), you are right. "Woman is the Nigger of the World" comes to mind. Listen to that one by John Lennon as well.
In all truthfullness, even though one might have a lot to say (and you do, and it is worthwhile), people generally tend to ignore a lot of "noise" because it's just too much to take in and absorb. It is just plain "too much noise." Stick to one or two points and your points will be understood better.
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Post by sargassosea on Apr 23, 2010 7:51:52 GMT -5
Jemand –
You know, when the NLQ signal flare goes up and I step in to do that thing you characterize as ‘running guys off simply because they’re guys’ at least I do it with a fair amount of respect for the dude/person in question. I don’t ridicule them because I’d rather present myself to the world (even anonymously) as the rational adult I am.
I also take a lot of time to carefully read everything said dude/person has posted and consider his position carefully before I do the ‘running off’ so I’m clear that I know what I’m talking about before laying in.
Silencing isn’t cool – or so I’ve been told.
That said:
Janedoe –
I take the time to read your many and lengthy posts because I’ve come to see that you have your patriarchy chops on and it’s refreshing to encounter a woman who sees the P for what it is and is willing to try to share this knowledge with other women. (the HCR-intersection aside as I don’t yet know enough about the package in its final form)
And although I can see why some members are having trouble getting your (important and complex) message due to your *stream-of-consciousness* writing style, it doesn’t seem to hinder my reading comprehension skills at all. Go figure.
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Post by margybargy on Apr 23, 2010 8:47:40 GMT -5
Most fundie children are fed the line that college, if not a bastion of eeevil liberal heathen pagan atheist witchcraft-cannibals, is an overwrought scam. Their parents talk as though college is an enormously expensive work permit required for certain jobs - and there are plenty of other jobs that don't carry such a costly prerequisite, right? For me, it took going to college to realize how small my world had been and how little I knew of the opportunities that college itself would offer. It's a catch-22. The Duggars might tell their girls something like: 'If you want a job and need to go to college for it, we'll support you,' but there's no way for the girl to know what those jobs are before she gets there.Yep. My QF friend is absolutely disdainful of college. Her children stop doing any school work in 10nth grade though since they are several years behind in everything it really is below that. I've tried to encourage her to let them go further in education but they always have something they want to do which conveniently requires no education at all.. and I realized talking to them that they actually do not know what options they might have. They do not know that even taking courses in stuff like hair and nutrition at community college, stuff they vaguely express interests in, requires you finish school. College level jobs are stuff people on other planets do. Basically the girls do odd jobs until they get married. Thank you. Excellent point. The Duggar girls aren't going to express a serious interest college. To them, it's not an option. They have too many other responsibilities and obligations. Plus their lives are already mapped out. They've been told they don't need college. My husband's parents raised him to believe he could be anything he wanted. But he grew up in an old-school blue collar culture. Nobody went to college. That was something that other people did. His parents didn't know the first thing about sending him to college. They didn't have any guidance to offer. There was no money. He eventually did attend college as an adult, but it was a long way getting there. How much more difficult is it for the Duggar kids? Their parents don't encourage them. Their parents don't tell them they can be anything they want to be. They've been told the "the world" is scary. They've been told what their only acceptable purpose is over and over and over. I suppose college is an option for the Duggar kids in the same way winning the Boston Marathon is for me. It's possible, but highly unlikely.
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Apr 23, 2010 9:01:37 GMT -5
Actually, I think there is a higher liklihood of you winning the Boston Marathon than the Duggar girls going ever going to college. The Duggar girls are needed back at the ranch so that the Duggar parents can perpetuate the Duggar product. They are young, have been sheltered, and brain-washed. They have been brainwashed forwards, backwards, and in-between. People want to know what their secret is. That's an easy one. The secret is brain-washing, "training" from birth. This model works until the system crashes, and it will for some of them. Their will come a defining moment in each of their lives when things come crashing down big time. It could be soon, it could be in their 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, etc. There is going to be something that "clicks" in them and the nuclear bomb will go off in their heads.
I am SO angry at Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar who use their older girls as indentured servants who do all of the very difficult work of raising children, take care of a household, etc. get all the praise and rewards while the girls get the shaft. I really hate when they are held up as "idols" and put on a pedestool as something that we should all aspire to. I have never and will never treat my children (7 of them) the way that they treat their children. They act as if their children were brought into this world to serve them. What selfish oafs they are!!! All the "We'll accept all the gifts God blesses us with" is a joke, a complete and utter joke and lie. They use that as an excuse to be selfish oafs to their children who are already born and already doing all the work that the parents should be doing. What pompous hypocrites!
Wait! I was wrong! What gets me angrier than the pompous Duggar parents getting awards for their "awesome parenting skills" is the fact that their adoring fans still won't acknowledge that the children's aren't just "helping" (ah, doesn't that sound so sweet and Walton-like), they ARE actually the surrogate/teen-age parents to their siblings. Watching Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar walking footlose and fancy free leading the parade, holding hands, kissing, while the mess is unfolding behind them with the older girls in charge of the disaster - makes me positively sick. I have children ages 26 to age 8 and I know how hard it was to go anywhere with the 7 of them, how going anywhere was like mobilizing for Iwo Jima, how we were taking everything including the kitchen sink, how exhausted we both were, and then seeing those two jack as*es pulling a fast one on ignorant and/or obtuse people...that really burns me!!!
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hrd
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Post by hrd on Apr 23, 2010 9:47:44 GMT -5
[/i] Silencing isn’t cool – or so I’ve been told. That said: Janedoe – I take the time to read your many and lengthy posts because I’ve come to see that you have your patriarchy chops on and it’s refreshing to encounter a woman who sees the P for what it is and is willing to try to share this knowledge with other women. (the HCR-intersection aside as I don’t yet know enough about the package in its final form) And although I can see why some members are having trouble getting your (important and complex) message due to your *stream-of-consciousness* writing style, it doesn’t seem to hinder my reading comprehension skills at all. Go figure. [/quote] sargassosea, I appreciate this viewpoint. However, I don't' think anyone is trying to silence anyone. In fact, I think that everyone would like to engage with JaneDoe. However, her posts are overwhelming and unfocused. It isn't a matter of style . It is a matter of 100 ideas being mixed in together with no clear points. I agree that she has some very good insight into the mechanics of patriarchy in this country, especially in the areas of the intersection of class and race with gender issues. However, I can never be sure, because I always feel like JaneDoe is using whatever the thread topic is in order to get across her own agenda--which is a somewhat veiled illusion to her personal experiences with abuse. I don't think her ideas are irrelevant, but her posts make it impossible to engage in meaningful discussion. I would invite her to start her own thread and talk about whatever is on her mind/in her heart. But if the thread is about, say, Michelle Duggar winning an award, let's talk about that. This isn't a moral/ethical issue--just one of "netiquette" and message board usability.
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Post by sargassosea on Apr 23, 2010 10:18:47 GMT -5
hrd -
It looks like you've just invited Janedoe to start her own thread (in a manner of speaking) so I guess I don't need to.
But thanks for the suggestion.
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Post by musicmom on Apr 23, 2010 12:43:20 GMT -5
I do believe that there are prophets among us - just as John the Baptist was in his time. John the Baptist did not present himself in the typical way - he was known for his unusual appearance and habits. But what he said came right from what he heard from God - so much so that people wondered whether he could be the Christ.
I'm not saying that Jane Doe is necessarily another John the Baptist - but I do read her posts very carefully and I put the effort into understanding them, because I think that what she is saying is very important. I think she is writing not for her own jollies, but because she feels a deep need to say these things to anyone who will listen.
Can anyone really say that her random capitalization and stream of consciousness totally obscures her message? Or is it just that it's easier to skip it - along with the harsh truths that she brings to our unwilling eyes?
And of course, we always do have the option to skip it. Just scroll right on down and don't read it if you are so inclined. I for one am glad for her insights and I will keep reading. She very well may be a prophet.
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Post by humbletigger on Apr 23, 2010 14:00:46 GMT -5
Most fundie children are fed the line that college, if not a bastion of eeevil liberal heathen pagan atheist witchcraft-cannibals, is an overwrought scam. Their parents talk as though college is an enormously expensive work permit required for certain jobs As one who was kicked out on the street with nothing at eighteen, college DOES seem like an enormously expensive work permit, and a liberal arts degree like a very expensive and fascinating way to spend four or more years of your life, if you can afford the indulgence. That's exactly why I am home schooling mine to succeed in college! They need that work permit! (Okay, I know what they really need is the training to do whatever it is they want to do and do it well. Just saying I know how hard it is trying to get by without that degree! Not an easy road, no ma'am.)
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hrd
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Post by hrd on Apr 23, 2010 14:02:42 GMT -5
Can anyone really say that her random capitalization and stream of consciousness totally obscures her message? Or is it just that it's easier to skip it - along with the harsh truths that she brings to our unwilling eyes? Here is the thing, though. I am going back and forth in my mind, Is JaneDoe really a woman who is concerned about these issues; has some experiences with abuse/patriarchy that are relevant , but is a bit "quirky;" and she has an unusual way of expressing them. Or is JaneDoe a message board troll who is sending out these wacky stream of consciousness rants, which, by the way, hint at ideas I personally disagree with (that "secularists" are somehow in on a n anti-woman conspiracy and that hidden in the health insurance reform bill is a plot against the elderly). Sometimes I think JaneDoe is a man who is getting his "jollies" as you put them by making fun of the discussion here. Sometimes I think JaneDoe is a deeply troubled person who is just reaching out for some human interaction. It is hard to say. I think that punctuation does matter. If you are trying to express a thought, if you are trying to actually communicate with others, you put enough effort into your composition so that others understand. For example, does the random capitalization have some sort of meaning? If all you want to do is express yourself, then that is great, but don't expect others to take the effort to understand what you are saying.
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Post by kiery on Apr 23, 2010 14:05:55 GMT -5
I think Jane is smart and well thought out. She may be preaching to the choir but I understand the need to voice things. The only issue I have, doesn't really have anything to do with Jane, just my own trauma. My dad wrote (writes) very long, very colorful, very capitalized emails when he's emphatic about something. I've seen more than my share of these emails directed at me, my husband, and my in-laws. So, whenever I see a long article with a large portion of it in caps, I start to get a little scared and I've gotten to the point now, when anytime I see something resembling my dad's email/style, I just skip it. Like I assume it's going to bite me - even though I know it won't, because, Jane isn't my dad, still it's the reaction I have.
I kind of regret it, because I think Jane really has interesting things to say, I just...can't get very far...too many random flash-backy things. That said, content wise, I think Jane is really good and it would be neat to see her have her own thread too..then I can work on reading things in caps and get over....that.
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Back on topic though - yeah, I don't think they'll go to college, the whole community is way too grounded in college-is-evil or my favorite "girls are going to be wives and mothers, why bother with a college education? you should be training for motherhood" At least that's what my mom told me when I was graduating at 16.
And no, I don't plan on venturing into motherhood for a long time and I've got more than enough training. But maybe, if they get married and develop as their own person (I hope they do) they'll come to the same realization that we have. Maybe they'll find the world isn't as scary as they thought, and maybe they'll even find a home here. /optimism
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Post by choiceisgood on Apr 23, 2010 15:40:11 GMT -5
Perhaps it is the researcher in me, but I feel that it is irresponsible, and does a disservice to your arguement, to not cite facts. I'm not talking about requiring proper Bluebook format, but facts without some sort of citation become nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion. For example, if you are going to accuse the health care bill of euthanasia or eugenics, them cite the page number and section where it states that. A cite from a credible source defends your position. Otherwise, making a statement of that sort is dangerous and immoral because it is quite possibly not true and creates fear. Providing a substantive cite to a topic can help in bringing out the truth while also serving to weed out the implausible.
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Post by nikita on Apr 23, 2010 16:30:25 GMT -5
Well, whatever the veracity of the facts alleged or the sincerity of the poster, the manner of posting jane is doing feels, in it's effect on me, like an assault. And it doesn't matter what the subject of the thread actually is, the post will be a lengthy diatribe on whatever crosses her mind at that particular moment and is presented in a manner that qualitatively amounts to pitched screaming rants on multiple subjects and which underlying assumption is that the reader is both ignorant of said subjects and is in dire need of being forcibly convinced of the poster's rightness or else.
As far as netiquette goes, it is a verbal assault meant to overwhelm and subdue the reader. Qualitatively speaking.
So asking jane to either start her own thread for this stuff or to back up a minute and be more respectful of the other posters is not an unreasonable request to make. IMHO.
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Post by arietty on Apr 23, 2010 18:27:06 GMT -5
So, Michelle Duggar’s “groupies” will go to see her and have tea time with her in which she will offer them the answers they’ve been so patiently waiting for. She will talk in her baby-like, soft voice, smile, and reassure them that they are on the right path. She will tell them to continue giving up their life to God, to continue to be submissive to their husbands, to practice “J-O-Y” in their home, to buy this or that “Managers of their Household/Home” books, be open to having as many children as the Lord is willing to give you, etc. This is what they’ve been waiting to hear and the reason they came, so all of this will resonate like heavenly music to them because it reassures them that they are indeed on the right path. With a bit more diligence, they are reassured that they too will finally be there - just like Michelle Duggar. They will go home with hearts as light as butterflies energized by being around Michelle Duggar and the fact that they were able to leave their house and all the work and drudgery that goes along with living the patriarchal version/model of a “Godlly home” (which is code for children being slaves to the parents, the wife being the slave to her husband, and the whole kit and kaboodle being messed up from the core out). They will come home to children that have been fighting and bickering, tired and burned out caregivers/babysitters in the form of their daughters, lesson plans, dinner, laundry, and cleaning that haven’t quite been completed yet. BOOM! - the illusion that Michelle Duggar painted at tea time begins to shatter!!! Maicde your whole post was excellent! And this is sooo true.. I used to do it myself. Many women are really yearning to go to these conferences or Above Rubies camps or afternoons listening to Godly Titus 2 teaching. And they feel SO refreshed and encouraged and lets face it a lot of that is because at last they are having a BREAK. Someone is serving them tea for once, lol. I know myself that these events were my only time away from the kids, interacting with other adults without interruptions and chores to do. I just talked to a homeschooling mom who got away for a weekend conference for the first time ever.. she loved it.. when she came back the house was in total chaos, one kid had run away to stay somewhere else, you could not enter the laundry room because of the undone stuff (husband of course did nothing). And she told me she would never ever be able to go away again. It comes down to a complete lack of realism about the lifestyle. It's supposed to work beautifully like on the Duggar show but for many it doesn't. And of course all the books say that if it doesn't work there is a spiritual reason so you better work harder, be more submissive blah blah.. Some people don't have a will to make their kids as robotic as is needed. I've seen that more than once, it just isn't in them to compel their children into obedience that way, maybe they are people who are scared of conflict so they tend to just do it all themselves rather than argue with a 12 year old. Or maybe they are very kind hearted and it never feels right to be on their kids backs all the time. Really you need your kids robotic slaves not to be overwhelmed by the sheer work load.
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Post by arietty on Apr 23, 2010 18:53:26 GMT -5
People want to know what their secret is. That's an easy one. The secret is brain-washing, "training" from birth. YES, nailed it. That's the secret. And eventually it burns out the brainwasher as well because it is soooo exhausting to be compelling a herd of children day in and day out to do/believe your will. Yes I've realized that zeal and cultic thinking eventually runs its course. There is a time limit to trying. You have some shut off valve in your brain that eventually says ENOUGH and you can no longer continue striving. This is why some of us have experienced a huge crash in our ability to do stuff, stuff being all the household running, post exiting this lifestyle. What a good point this is. I would never treat my children that way either. I can't imagine their whole lives being based around serving my household and my vision of what life will be. Yes indeed, WHAT is it all about, all the speaking at Ladies Teas and date nights and being up on stage.. it's about the unpaid servitude of the daughters keeping it all running.
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Post by musicmom on Apr 23, 2010 20:19:08 GMT -5
"Some people don't have a will to make their kids as robotic as is needed. I've seen that more than once, it just isn't in them to compel their children into obedience that way, maybe they are people who are scared of conflict so they tend to just do it all themselves rather than argue with a 12 year old. Or maybe they are very kind hearted and it never feels right to be on their kids backs all the time. Really you need your kids robotic slaves not to be overwhelmed by the sheer work load. "
This was me - very kind hearted to a fault. The whole way that QF worked in our house was because my ex was a military-style disciplinarian. He could just enter the room and the kids would pop up to serve. The sheer knowledge that he was coming home each night caused everything to get done during the day. It's hard to describe, but the kids just robotically followed his every command, or even his unspoken thoughts about what they should do. Of course, there was a lot of harsh discipline which had been doled out in the past and was always there as a back-up to the deep, commanding voice and impossible expectations.
I remember just dreading what they kids would do after Chris moved out. I mean, I knew he should be gone and that his presence was destructive - but he was the energy directing the whole running of the household. I had no idea what would happen when he left, but I knew they wouldn't be the Von Trapps lined up in a row anymore.
So, it wasn't too bad. They (and I) did take about a year or so in which they all just sort of relaxed like rubber bands released into the air. It was pretty wild there for a while. Most days we've reached a new equilibrium, but I still need to work on my humane discipline skills since I really didn't need any before at all. I tend to not be as firm as I should be, because all that excessive discipline really scared me and I still have quite a bit of PTSD whenever I try to be forceful.
But yes - QF only can function by a combination of brainwashing straight from birth and oppressive discipline. Maybe it's sort of like sending soldiers off to war where they might get killed - to require human beings to go so against their natural grain, you have to have rigorous discipline in place.
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Post by arietty on Apr 23, 2010 20:43:51 GMT -5
So, it wasn't too bad. They (and I) did take about a year or so in which they all just sort of relaxed like rubber bands released into the air. It was pretty wild there for a while. Wow that's a great picture! Like rubber bands released into the air..yes, that was us for sure. Reading that first sentence it occurs to me that QF needs the brainwashing etc.. not solely because it involves a lot of children but because of the needs of the whole package. I feel like we do just fine now being a big family (8 kids) having jettisoned every single tenant of the lifestyle except the kids themselves. The need for perfect discipline, the homeschooling, the endless examining of everything to see if it was godly enough, the time consuming commitment to frugal and nutritious food, the constant striving to please God.. We exist just fine without all this nonsense. And we have a lot more fun, lol.
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Post by janedoe on Apr 24, 2010 2:28:10 GMT -5
MusicMom, I won't be writing here anymore, this is my last post, I only signed back up, to let you know, you can reach me here: homesewersneedleworkersunion-hsnwu.blogspot.com/I also have another blog, though I don't write on it as much [it's more political without the personal] as I used to AND it is in academic style, at least more so than what I post on boards, when I do post. HRD yes I am a WOMAN, and not going to dignify the rest of your suspicions with any comments, don't have the time, interest or energy...you think what you like--your right, don't matter to me one way or another, it isn't going to stop me from writing. To everyone else, Yes I do write on 'issues' in fact been writing for years, the Reason I bring up the 'secular patriarchy' is for several reasons, but let me explain the most important and Torgo I believe said something that well, let's take it a bit further, she said that the difference between secular and religious patriarchy is that the secular doesn't have the extra added 'God will send you to hell eternal' fears hanging over your head. Well she's right, IF one follows that line of thinking, many traditional/comps and hard comp religions do, not ALL Christians are comp or even patriarchal, but she's correct, BUT let's take that an extra thought. Because of that fact, those women who Do leave, an abusive marriage or cultic patriarchal religious setting and IF they hit the bottom, let's say for financial resources being limited or lack of support or God forbid, wind up following some of the more liberal and misogynist leanings and winding up lets say, with a man who liberal abuses them far worse OR if they wind up on the streets, different scenarios but they DO HAPPEN, what then do you Think that woman is going to have to deal with then, with the internalizations and the guilt, about God, especially WHEN those secular who at one time Were there, aren't there anymore as a support [and it does happen ALL the time, especially for women with many children and who are low income] then what? Do you Think she'll just bounce back like it's nothing? For her, Those internalizations and the guilt and belief that 'maybe this is God's punishing her' is going to be Far worse, and it's then that she IS very vulnerable, So, having have BEEN on the streets, pregnant, having Left a very conservative community in the South then going completely over to a liberal and yes, atheist leaning and radical at that [this was a process that happened over years] and Then winding up in the gutter [with numerous other women With kids] and seeing how because I slept with the enemy so to speak or how in our materialist society Mothers really are treated, especially if they are LOW INCOME, don't matter how educated or resourceful they are, those Class Prejudices AND THE EXPLOITATION BY NONE OTHER THAN YES, THE SECULAR, are there...and to have to Deal with that PLUS alll those other internalizations, it's only by the Grace of God that I like so many women I was in the shelter with [one brief time in my life] who Were on crack and who Were abused not just by men but by pimps, including one woman with Four kids, whose pimp threw her OUT of a car and ran over her, in KY, including another woman I held while she went through D.T.s all night and That's not including the women with MS, one with severe epilepsy, another with six kids who because she was Poor CPS pulled her kids and the ONLY way she'd get them back was to Hire a lawyer and Have a house and on HER income--for a Year, she was in that shelter, and Still trying to just get a house, not a one bedroom studio apartment, a House, that's regulation with 6 kids. You see I've LIVED IT, not just read it in some college book for a liberal poli sci course...and I know, how the system works, I know the betrayals, I know how it is, for those women who fall through the cracks, and yes, you bet, I don't have a lot of respect for the lip service of many anti-God feminists who scream it's all about Christianity when I have dealt with the pimps and the porn creeps and you know, I've seen how they like wolves just prey on women, [all this prior to 96-97, but one doesn't forget], I ran away from home at 17, well a week prior, sold my self for a place to live, to escape the RA, off and on I lived this, in and out of marriages, so you see my experience with Feminism came from Hard knocks like Many of you, and a lot of betrayals, a lot of having to do whatever, to feed myself [and yes I worked, worked my ass off at service sector, bars, prior to going to college, twice, once of Associates which, LOL, ok waiting tables was financially more feasible, I know what the strip clubs are all about and NO it's not empowering, don't buy into all that lying bullshit the pro-porn lot put out there...sure, if coke up your nose is what you think empowering is and Meth, to get through one more damn night... I was lucky, didn't get on the drugs, but I"ve seen many of my sisters go Down, and no, many of them DON'T EVER, GET BACK UP] and Many of them Yes, do come from good homes, they come from many of them Christian homes, who like me, believed the grass was greener on the other side of the fence, well, it IS and IT ISN'T, I am Very left on a lot of issues, economics, environment, anti-war [within reason, not pacifist] and FAR from fundie... I am also Very spiritual, Christian [not religious, not conservative by no means, and Yes there are times I wrestle with God on all these issues, it has NOT been this sugar coated walk that I just yea God is great and I just always believe, I don't, I've faced demons in myself, not just seen in other's o.k., but in myself, I once was a part of that whole revolutionary movement that we wanted to shoot, talk later...I know what hate is and what darkness is, and I do know, what so many fringe groups who aren't so Fringe btw, are working in yes, policies, the deep ideology that Yes, many Right wing Christians do warn about--you know something, on a lot of things, they are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, because I used to FIGHT FOR THOSE THINGS... the Wake up call, and the Trigger that would Slap me out of my stupor and into reality, was the issue of legalizing and normalizing PEDOPHILIA, [huge convention that went with the whole pro-prostitution in CA a couple of years ago] and they ARE working on this, in Europe it's already in place, and Those ideologies are coming from none other than your scientific anti-God and no moral absolutes/relativism and if YOU think they CARE about Women, think again, what is Shocking, is that it's not just MEN there are many women, who are in on this garbage too, and it's the POOR they'll exploit, the powerless, the marginalized, the disabled, people of color and well anyway,
that is when me and one other woman, went head on against many of them and I got out, went independent for about a year...during that time, I researched, and researched, and I did something other than just research journals, I got into literature, foreign esp, because you can find out a lot about culture/and reality in literature, esp in nations where literature is censured. I cross examined in other words [yes I have read a lot, and I do mean, a lot, reading was my escape from abuse in childhood, at 12 I was reading human right books on torture in Romania, Bulgaria, Vietnam, when others were talking boys and nails],
anyhow, no I don't belong to any groups or agendas, I am an independent thinker...it was through working through those triggers that I finally had to come to grips with the RA in my childhood rather than just shelving it, and I came back to my faith in God, HE is the reason I didn't commit suicide, several times, though not sure I would have, maybe then, I don't know, but I was dying inside,
not from religion but from going the far other extreme. And seeing the truth, in those other yes, misogynist ideologies...and many of them yes Are misogynist in their own right, why Eastern feminists do NOT support a lot of our Western feminism,
ever ask yourself Why? Do some research on what our policies have DONE to those women in Those countries, particularly, on forced sterilizations [Bangladesh] and stripping local economies, forced prostitution/rapes of girls via militarization, etc., do some reading,
from Their lens, not US lens. While I don't concur with all the Nationalism [or the patriarchy that yes, does control what comes out of some countries, we cannot just diminish Their experiences just because men manipulate those for political reasons].
This is why I am neither right or left, haven't been for years. So, when Rosa mentioned the medicaid,
my intent, was not so much to get into a lengthy 'tangent' on other issues, but to Show,
that Yes, though as horrid and it IS horrid and it IS infuriating and painful what the QF and similar patriarchal and I would say, many of them politically Reactionary, do to women,
that does NOT mean, that these women will not find many of the Same obstacles and misogyny and yes, patriarchy, in the world, so to speak, there ARE numerous Teen girls who with only Two children are forced to be Primary Caregivers while mother works,
hell there are kids who are taking care of their siblings all the time, mother can't afford daycare AND if she makes $50.00 to much income but still below poverty line, guess what, she doesn't Qualify for those programs,
same with Medicaid, though yes, some states now have CHP but we had to FIGHT for those..but even with That, not all doctors or dentists take those insurances, often she'll be using a nurse-clinic,
which is fine, but it comes with it's OWN exploitation, especially with kids always needing ritalin, that's one example, do some studies on how many Low income children are Targeted that way...why?
Because poor and Marginalized women, AND MOTHERS WITH KIDS/MORE THAN ONE ARE ESP VULNERABLE TO THIS, are easy prey.
And that isn't even the Gist of it...
My thing is, there tends to be on here, this yes pointing out the horrors of Christianity and those btw, the QF do NOT represent the whole diverse community of Christians, talking about Monolithic,
some of the prejudices and they are from some just that, prejudice, are monolithic, and I am one that does criticize the mainstream Christian a lot, but even with that, I know there are many who are NOT like the way many describe...but my thing is,
there is a lot of that and this almost like, well if you just dump the whole moral absolutes and hey free sex is great and all that--that all will be fine,
well, maybe for many that's true, but NOT always, because TRUTH is, for women who are raising children on their own and Without support systems [and they aren't out there in high numbers] what may work for the twenty something in college or prof woman who doesn't have children
is NOT going to work for the mother, who is having to deal with a world that is ALREADY HOSTILE TO MOTHERS and who is Also dealing with her own issues PLUS if she is barely making it...
then it's really going to compound on her.
So my thing is to NOT sell women Illusions, because I have seen, and lived, the Reality, of what happens when those Myths don't add up to real life,
and I'm not talking about just not being able to make a car payment, I'm talking about women who are having to decide whether or not to sell her soul basically so her kid can eat or have a place to Sleep.
And these aren't RARE cases, THEY ARE THE NUMBER ONE INCREASING
POVERTY GROUP IN OUR NATION TODAY
single mothers, displaced homemakers, with children.
And great, so the Poverty industry and the Academics now and then write on it, it makes for good thesis, good journals [SAGE and others] and great dissertations, good politics/and pr and esp near election time
but it don't do a DAMN thing for those women who I know and see who are losing their kids, their dignity, their hope, everything...
and I for one, am just not going to stand silent, and NOT warn...
that while Yes, I totally concur, no one should have to put up with Any kind of abuse, and NO, no one should be treated the way these women are,
at the Same time, I won't sit here and say, well it's JUST GOD or it's just Christianity or it's Just QF because I know better, I know it isn't,
and IF these women who Have been sheltered and who Have been controlled, IF they do NOT have the support systems and Unless you all are going to financially pay their housing/daycare if needed and medical in Every state,
don't you think, that they have a right, to know that the secular isn't all that pro-woman and damn sure isn't pro-Mother either? Or is 'agenda' to rid of religion, more important?
You see, I read here many saying, oh don't defend Christianity, OK, sure, maybe some of you have a point,
on the other hand, do you Think it's truly honest, to paint this false image of the secular, especially when, These women, are going to be facing things not just themselves BUT with many kids? OK so you want to curb population, or end mother hood [some here I know, by the language, that is what they are for...remember I used to be a part of that whole ideology base],
but WHAT about the women and Mothers in the mean time?
Many will say, oh, you're just talking from your pain or you're just exaggerating, well, I wish you were right, I wish you were,
but for those of you who DARE to think, away from Group Think, I encourage you to do your own research, look up sociological studies on the status of single mothers, look up Coalition for the Homeless, do some studies on the rise of Tent Cities, the rise in the Sex Industry in this nation and WHY that is,
and not just for mothers, many of you, for Elderly women--because you are one day going to be elderly.
We are a Global Economy, more and more, we are going to find that what Women in other nations are dealing with, it's going to be US here, that includes yes, one day seeing OUR daughters trafficked, don't think it can't happen here. We already Have sweatshops here, trafficked sex slaves, domestic workers including Yes, many of those Nannies [from Jamacia btw and Indonesia],
Jemand, interesting name, German...you know in Germany, not too long ago, they passed a law, the moral relativists, when they Cut social programs [thank you EU] and they told Women, that they could NOT turn down prostitution as legitimate work for moral reasons...[FACT, IT went to court though I'm not sure what the status of this is]
now how would you like for government to tell you that YOU must Prostitute if that's the only work, or not get any funds for your children? The woman took it to court, but Just the fact, that this happened, and more and more in many countries THIS IS REALITY,
you see I don't just oppose much of the anti-morals or antis-God lot because I'm some nutcase here, oh no,
but because Women tend to get shafted, no pun intended there, so from a Radical and yes, Radical Emancipation and Abolitionist Feminist [and Eco] I am very against, the whole borg materialist anti-femme world, you betcha,
don't mean I want to go back to B.C. either but you I think, get my point.
So, IF I posted here, about these issues, OR about, how in my reading I am seeing a very Feminist God, once I learned to dump the patriarchal doctrines lens in reading the Bible AND looking into ancient cultures [Mesopotamia] and so forth--ONLY to for Those who believe IN GOD that SHE can be Empowered, knowing HER WORTH in Christ,
not as some appendage to man but that GOD is pro-environment, pro-animal rights [and there are numerous scriptures through out] and Very pro-Woman, it's in there...problem is these are skimmed over...
for Me, my relationship with God has made my stand on Feminism and Women's Human Rights and the Environment even MORE radical and unashamed, empowered, and empowered to confront AND to heal...
at the same time, confronting Yes the very real patriarchal and materialist sad to say what I think IS an apostate church culture in this nation that is more reminiscence of Bael and Ashtoreth worship [did the research on what it was/and Molech, etc] that is Extremely becoming more misogynist [and I believe there is spiritual reason for this] and that is destroying women and children...
and confronting the poverty industry or better termed, Feminization of Poverty, both here at home and globally.
This was Why I recommended Heart's place, Women's Space, the Margins, because she was ex QF and she Does write on all these issues, and she KNOWS what the poverty and the betrayals are...and she's not afraid to confront them including confronting the other side of misogyny, in the secular and the progressive groups, including yes, many feminist groups. Why I respect her, she does NOT compromise, Women's Human Rights...
USED to she had a lot of great resources listed for those who Want to continue to homeschool but with a gender studies/woman centered leaning...there ARE single mothers who do this, I didn't know that, there are Indie communities of women who are self-sufficient,
there are numerous women centered support systems out there but they are NOT in the mainstream, some States are more friendly to women legally than others, these women have been bucking the Patriarchy, both religious and secular for Years and they know their stuff, as well as the obstacles.
They are attacked a lot because they are non-compromising on supporting Mothers, on supporting All women, indigenous peoples, land rights, economic rights, rights to belief [though confronting patriarchal abuses] and so forth...they are attacked for their stands against the Rape and Raunchy culture that is demeaning to ALL women and the sexualization of our girls, the Porn culture and the materialist /corporatist culture. But these women I believe are Heroines, who are on the front lines, battle front, for All of us,
and a lot of what I learned from them, I believe would benefit many who are transitioning from the QF and similar groups to living apart from. These women ARE going to be more vulnerable,
Especially due to their faith, whether or not they continue to believe or not...and IF they are only told that's it's great away from it all without the truth about what they may or most likely face, depending on the region/state/family support/or lack of, etc., they'll be in for a far worse journey...
that could backfire.
That is why, I speak up....it May not be popular here among the anti-God lot...but,
I'll put it on the table, point blank,
IF those or some of those women, leave, they listen to all the oh it's QF and it's Christianity and this and that and oh you'll be so much better off and then IF she gets into a mess...and is in a state where YOU can't get to her...Then what? And then some abusive asshole who is NOT Christian, who Yes, maybe is a pedo [oh they Do prey on women with many kids...it's like a radar] or a psycho==and they don't Advertise it, ok, and Sure, maybe YOU wouldn't wind up in that,
but she's barely making it and she's tired and weary and maybe she thinks God has abandoned her for rebelling or what have you and here he is and HE is a way out...and then the trap is set. Don't think it happens,
Wake up, it happens ALL THE TIME...
and lets say, her daughter, from one home to this situ is one day molested...she runs away, then all she has is the girl saying, hey, I know where you can make some easy cash...Don't think it happens, it happens All the time,
I, know it does, and I also know, when SHE is down and out--when she NEEDS the help the most, nine out of ten, IT'S NOT THERE...
and IF you think, I am NOT going to warn, that I"m just going to be quiet to not offend or risk being called crazy,
think again....I'll risk it, I'll put up with the 'you need help' and I'll put up with the personal attacks on me,
because IF I can maybe, one woman, reading, THINKS and says, you know I'll leave but maybe I won't go all jumping in to the world without taking small steps or maybe I'll get in touch with some of these other women who may be Christian but NOT patriarchal, maybe I'll look into a Empowerment center/self sufficiency or learn as much as I can....
maybe, SHE won't wind up, like many women do. Maybe she'll not lose her faith NOR stay stuck in abuse...and even if she Does leave her faith,
if she's not making a high income, maybe, if there is Truth out there and not this oh it's just Christianity and once you leave you'll be fine...she'll KNOW where to look for help,
and that is why, I am, compiling a list of Resources and Truthful Reality Suggestions for how to Survive IF there is limited housing or what to do if there is no daycare assistance because there Are sometimes, options, NOT always, and I won't LIE and say that one won't find themselves in worse straights, that is the RISK you take, being a single parent with kids in This economy and it IS getting worse. And health insurance--is not an utopia, not for the marginalized, that's for sure.
These women need to hear MORE than the oh God and Christianity sucks...they Need to hear the Truth that this is what you could be facing if you Do leave, [they also need to hear that there is just as much misogyny in the secular...it don't matter if there isn't a belief in hell, if she's having to put out for a roof do you Think she is thinking about her after life then? Seriously?]d
and if So, not the lip speak oh there are programs out there...she'll be faced with lines with hundreds of other women who already KNOW the programs aren't there/or are sufficient Plus dealing with the hostile 'to mother' camps and they ARE out there...the Older she is, the Worse for her it's going to BE.
So, my last post here...
I write on these issues on my blog [plus on global poverty/etc and yes, things I find in my faith that are PRO-Woman and leaning to more of the left, you won't find a huge conservative audience on my blog--they tend to dislike me, gee I wonder
but I will be putting these sources down--as well as the obstacles Women DO face, particularly if they are not high/middle income. And what, is being done about them OR what she can do, not promising they'll always work, but there are many things...
there are Also other coops/co=housing, in some states, Oregon is a good one, so is Seattle, but one just has to do research, many of your anarcha-feminists have good info as Well as the pitfalls in dealing with the men/police/system. [yea, even anarchists have their sexist misogynists]
So--ok then...MusicMom,
I'll leave my account up to get mail, will lurk...IF I post anything related to here, I'll just put the link of the topic, on my blog.
Sincerely, in solidarity,
Jane
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maicde
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by maicde on Apr 24, 2010 14:20:03 GMT -5
Jane Doe, regarding your last post, my personal feelings and opinion are as follows: there needs to be less diatribe (words) and more action (doing). You seem to have the weight of the world on your shoulders and in my personal opinion (not anyone else's or the board's) you are all over the place. Yes, the world perpetuates all sorts of injustices on various people based on their gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, etc. My advice is to "Be the Change You Want to See in the World" (Gandhi) and then shut up. People will affect change in their own way, it doesn't have to be YOUR way. How do you know what people are thinking or doing? Every time I read your posts, I (personally) feel bombarded and attacked. Good luck with your life's work that you are passionate about. We all have our own life's work and for everyone of us there is a time and purpose for everything. Some of us are in the season of our life where we can do more and some are in the season that they can do less; I know that it is important for each of us, but we can only do what we can in our own time.
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Post by krwordgazer on Apr 24, 2010 14:51:14 GMT -5
Jane, I haven't known quite what to say here, so I've kept quiet. But I want you to know that I feel deeply for you and for all you've been through, and I do feel solidarity with you. I do have trouble reading your posts, partly for their length and partly because-- well, I'm sensitive, and I usually end up feeling pretty emotionally upset by all you share. And the capital letters tend to make me feel like you're TRYING to ellicit an emotional response from me that I'm not necessarily ready to give.
I might suggest that your writing would be more effective (have more readers who actually receive what you're trying to share) if they were shorter, focused on one point at a time, and if you avoided super-emotional words, especially in caps (such as when I'm reading along and all of a sudden it's about Child Rape, and I feel like it hit me on the head from out of nowhere).
Sometimes shock tactics are necessary, like when you're talking to a complacent group who doesn't really want to face the problem you're talking about. But when shock tactics are overused, or used on an audience that's already sympathetic, they tend to be counter-effective. I'd suggest choosing your writing strategies more carefully, and taking your audience more into consideration.
I hope this is helpful to you, because that's all I want it to be. It's not about finding fault or judging you at all. I wish you all the best and that your blogs will have many readers.
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Post by tapati on Apr 24, 2010 16:53:05 GMT -5
Several of us have already sincerely tried to ask Janedoe to shorten posts and make them more accessible and she flatly refused to do so and basically said she wasn't concerned with how readable we found them. I gave up reading at that point although I had waded through many of her posts previously. If someone just wants to talk at me, not with me, I'm giving up.
It's sad because she does have some valuable things to say and would benefit from dialogue.
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Post by faraway on Apr 25, 2010 10:24:41 GMT -5
Delurking... I've been reading NLQ for a long time, but I haven't posted - mostly because while I am passionate about feminism and women's rights, my experience with 'Biblical patriarchy' is that of a bystander and I feel like I need to listen and learn. And I don't want to delurk on a negative note, but this? is false. It never happened. There is a good debunking of this 'fact' at www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp. I don't post this to say that European countries aren't misogynistic - of course they are - but stating such things as the above as fact is not helpful. One of my first encounters with VF-style patriarchy happened when I got married to my American husband, whose family is conservative Christian trending quiverfull. I got a box in the mail filled with self-help books on how to be a proper! submissive! wife! in a true! Biblical! marriage! One of them was written by James Dobson, and I can't cite it right now, since I threw it out in anger - but it was on child-rearing, and flipping through it, I saw the statement that 'in Sweden, it is legal for parents to have sex with their children'. Wait, what? Um, no. I've lived in Sweden and know that this is not true. James Dobson, having a Ph.D, of course knows that a real academic book would need citations to be taken seriously... but he has none. Actually, this whole book was citation-free. And I can't help but think that he does that on purpose, because once you can't use other (European, feminist, child-friendly) countries as scarecrows, his arguments collapse and wither. There are enough bad things in the world already, and very easy to document them. We can do better than this. Jane Doe, I think you have important things to say. Reading you, I'm reminded of the post-structuralist argument of ecriture feminine: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecriture_feminine. I took one of my degrees on the significance of that kind of writing, actually. But I have to agree with some of the other posters that it is very hard and time-consuming to read and parse it - and currently, I don't have time to do so, as I can't spend that much time on the internet and have to pick and choose what I can read. And I feel like the fact that I don't always have time or space to read and respond to things is a feminist issue too.
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Post by humbletigger on Apr 25, 2010 13:43:35 GMT -5
Jane, I know you from other place on the world wide web, and I think you're awesome. To be honest, I don't always read your entire posts. But I have on this thread, and I appreciate your sobriety and realism. I have a friend whose marriage is failing. She will be early fifties, with four kids still at home, no income...yep, I will be checking out your links! Having also been homeless, I hear what you're saying. As part of our high school economics, I have my kids read Nickled and Dimed by Barbara Ehreneich. You do come off angry in most posts (no duh! If RA stands for ritual abuse I can see why) and your writing style is pretty ADD, but I always figure if I don't want to read it, I know how to scroll past your post.
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Post by rosiegirl on Apr 25, 2010 15:07:07 GMT -5
Jane,
The problem with your posts is that you commandeer any thread and use it to talk about whatever you want; and you never cite the things you claim. You simply ask us to take it at face value, and use scare tactics when we're skeptical. A good example of this is your response to Jemand, and her name being German, and then pulling that prostitution line out of nowhere.
It is good practice to cite everything you claim, which so far, has been that the new healthcare system is about euthanasia and eugenics, and that prostitution mumbo jumbo in Germany, which has LONG since been discredited.
I would advise you to look into everything that concerns you rather than take it at face value; people use these kind of topics that they know people are sensitive to to get people riled up, and they'll say any kind of thing, without evidence, to do that, because they know most people will buy into it. Buying into it, without proper evidence and citations, is worse than ignoring it.
It's like Dobson saying its legal to have sex with children in Sweden.. is any of this proven? No. But its a sensitive subject, and he knows it will get people riled up, because who in their right mind would condone it? He doesnt have to prove it for people to believe it, because most people have the mindset of "Well, so and so said it, and they'd never lie.. so it MUST be true." and that is what makes it so dangerous.
Cite and research your claims.
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Post by choiceisgood on Apr 25, 2010 16:16:57 GMT -5
Jane, Cite and research your claims. Thanks Rosiegirl! I do a lot of research writing and the two rules I was told to followabout citations were: 1. Always cite, otherwise you could be guilty of plaigarism. 2. Uncited facts should be disregarded. Prove what you are saying.
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