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Post by musicmom on Apr 25, 2010 16:20:22 GMT -5
I just don't understand why everyone has to keep telling Janedoe that they skip or skim her posts or would she please shorten them or learn how to write better, etc..
That's not our business. For goodness sake, we can all scroll down if we don't have time to read - I do that myself, even though when I have time, I read every word she writes.
But I think it's insulting and hurtful to keep telling her these things. Maybe some of us do write more properly and more to the point - but people have different gifts and abilities. I would still rather have the opportunity to read what she has to say, and now because of so many people's criticism of her (even wondering if she's a woman or whether she's mentally ill ) she will not write here anymore.
I do not think any of this was necessary. Skip the darned posts, if you don't care for the writing style.
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Post by jemand on Apr 25, 2010 19:57:59 GMT -5
musicmom see quote from here: nolongerquivering.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pearl&action=display&thread=765&page=6I wrote a bit on the post in relation to today's story on the blog about why I choose to write the way I do, I don't go by rules, I am strictly non-conformist, I relay why there and don't want to repeat, if I was writing for professional I would write with yes proper grammar, [... ]I stopped bowing to that elitist garbage years ago, so sorry if my writing is hard to follow. When someone admits that what they are doing is making communication more difficult, because they insist on using a style of writing for political ends which gums up the works and is most emphatically NOT suited for the audience, it is as rude and obnoxious as some entitled person visiting another country and acting shocked, SHOCKED that the people there would deign not to speak *the visitor's* language. Spending not one iota of energy on the communication from her part, ALL the time energy MUST be expended to decode the mess on the listener's part. That's controlling and monopolizing behavior to use in a conversation. It is not gracious or helpful or useful or any of the other things we use language for *other* than a hammer to beat someone else with. And yes, random capitalizations and HUGE posts... multiple huge posts in a row, is *completely* disruptive, and disruptive for some personal political end which apparently is at odds to constructive dialogue. Sorry if I'm not going to bend over backwards and take it without expressing my annoyance.
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Post by nikita on Apr 25, 2010 21:07:29 GMT -5
A place I worked at liked to have employees teach material to fellow employees. For some reason a lot of the foreign born employees always volunteered for this task, which was fine as long as you could understand them. Most worked hard to be understood and the effort was appreciated and no problem. But this one guy had a really thick Indian accent and spoke at lightening speed. He was supposed to teach us some very complex and important information, for hours, and none of us could understand a word he said. I mean nothing. So I asked politely if he could slow down a bit because it was hard to understand and his response? I speak seven languages! I speak just fine!! And he didn't make any effort at all so we all just tuned out and figured we'd have to learn the material some other way. In my head I wanted to ask him, 'But can you communicate in any of them?' but that would have been rude so I just mummed up.
Speaking/writing does not necessarily equal communicating. Especially when the speaker/writer could not care less whether they are understood. And that is insulting and rude to their audience, whatever their political agenda or purpose might be. Since janedoe has made it clear that she doesn't respect her audience here, no matter how we tried to reason with her or implore her to help us understand her better, then it is better if she leave us be and focus on other places, IMHO. YMMV, but I am glad her assaultive posting style is no longer in my face. No, I don't have to read it, but the fact that someone is shouting at me for their own political purposes and doesn't care about me at all while doing raises my hackles when I encounter it. I don't care what the message is, it's the method and the way it relegates me to ignorant preachee that rankles. And as people who, some of us, were subject to loud insistent preaching by those who did not care whether we had a brain or wanted to think for ourselves, some of us may perhaps be more sensitive to that kind of verbal and intentional arrogance than others are. I didn't come all this way to subject myself to that once again, no matter the cause the shouter espouses.
Again, just my opinion.
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Post by tapati on Apr 26, 2010 1:22:16 GMT -5
I just don't understand why everyone has to keep telling Janedoe that they skip or skim her posts or would she please shorten them or learn how to write better, etc.. That's not our business. For goodness sake, we can all scroll down if we don't have time to read - I do that myself, even though when I have time, I read every word she writes. But I think it's insulting and hurtful to keep telling her these things. Maybe some of us do write more properly and more to the point - but people have different gifts and abilities. I would still rather have the opportunity to read what she has to say, and now because of so many people's criticism of her (even wondering if she's a woman or whether she's mentally ill ) she will not write here anymore. I do not think any of this was necessary. Skip the darned posts, if you don't care for the writing style. Originally we were trying to be helpful. I personally thought she had some valuable things to say that people were missing because of the accessibility issue, so I approached her in that manner, hoping to facilitate better communication. When we all got rebuffed, basically saying she didn't care if we could access it easily or not, we gave up.
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Post by margybargy on Apr 26, 2010 8:10:00 GMT -5
I just don't understand why everyone has to keep telling Janedoe that they skip or skim her posts or would she please shorten them or learn how to write better, etc.. That's not our business. For goodness sake, we can all scroll down if we don't have time to read - I do that myself, even though when I have time, I read every word she writes. But I think it's insulting and hurtful to keep telling her these things. Maybe some of us do write more properly and more to the point - but people have different gifts and abilities. I would still rather have the opportunity to read what she has to say, and now because of so many people's criticism of her (even wondering if she's a woman or whether she's mentally ill ) she will not write here anymore. I do not think any of this was necessary. Skip the darned posts, if you don't care for the writing style. I agree. To be honest, I don't think I've ever read anything Jane ever posted because of the length and complexity. I suppose there's a balance between expressing herself and losing a few readers. But I think she ought to be free to post as she wants as long as she's not obnoxious/offensive/troll-like.
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Post by tapati on Apr 26, 2010 21:13:48 GMT -5
At one point, Vyckie herself asked Janedoe to please shorten her posts a bit and make them more readable...so when the board owner has weighed in, a good guest tries to comply. (This was some time ago.)
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 26, 2010 22:46:13 GMT -5
At one point, Vyckie herself asked Janedoe to please shorten her posts a bit and make them more readable...so when the board owner has weighed in, a good guest tries to comply. (This was some time ago.) This is true ~ I've been tempted many times to put Janedoe on moderated status or impose a word limit. The reason I haven't done it is because I know that there are readers here who actually do read her posts and find them engaging. Plus ~ I'm a just not that great of a moderator ~ as you all may have noticed by now. On an unrelated topic ~ Tapati ~ is there any connection between migraines and smells that get in a person's nose and throat that noone else can smell? For a while now, I've noticed that for a week or more, one particular odor is in my nose continuously ~ and nothing I do makes it go away. The first time it was cinnamon ~ so strong I could taste it and I was sure that the cayenne capsules I take to get my blood moving were mistakenly filled with cinnamon instead of red pepper. The smell eventually goes away (or else I get used to it and don't notice it anymore) for a while ~ and then it's a new smell stuck in my nose. Some of the smells have been bleach, Listerine, oregano, dish soap, cat litter ~ for the past two days, I've not been able to get the smell of freshly-sharpened pencil out of my nose. Ugh. Weird.
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Post by tapati on Apr 27, 2010 2:14:23 GMT -5
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Post by janedoe on Apr 28, 2010 3:25:52 GMT -5
to the Women who are Contemplating Leaving and You have Little resources or support...The Truth, about what very well may happen, the TRUTH the 'anti-god' lot Won't tell you [the sugar coated it's only Christianity that's the problem], the TRUTH about what is the Reality for Thousands of Women with Children who have left abuse and have found themselves with NO safety Net, homeless, and without the Support...families split up, and the Secular, those who yell the loudest that its greener on the other side of the fence, will NOT be there for you... I know, I LIVED IT, pregnant, with small child, I left, and I paid. I am not telling you this to persuade you NOT to leave, but to tell you the TRUTH about the Reality of what is OUT There if you Do leave and are NOT middle-class to high income, Especially if you have Children. There ARE alternatives, options, that you Should know, before leaving, and even then, there are Still Risks, my point is, that YOU know, the truth, the Reality, that no the feminists and anti-god folks talk a good talk but when it's YOU on the streets with the kids, they aren't going to be the one paying YOUR bills or YOUR housing...some here might, I'm sure many will, however, Depending on the Region you are in, Depending on your Job Skills, Depending on Education, this is the Reality for Thousands of Women and Children in THIS nation TODAY, homeless, without safety nets, and without much or any support. To tell the TRUTH is to be labeled 'crazy', 'writing with wrong style', or 'in need of help'. Frankly I could care less what many have to say there, IF, IF the message gets out, that there is more to Leaving than just Leaving, so that YOU KNOW, that the patriarchy doesn't End when you leave the community, that the abuse and the Power abuse doesn't just end at the church door, that there are misogynists, exploiters, Liars who have agendas, Be INFORMED, KNOW THE FACTS, SO YOU MAKE WISE DECISIONS... FACT, thousands of Homeless Women with children in This nation LEFT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SHELTERS, FACT. FACT, thousands of Homeless/Poor Women Do lose their children to CPS or to Abusive Fathers who the courts Do give Custody to, there IS not only a Gender bias there is a Class Bias. Love, does NOT rejoice in iniquity or lies, Love rejoices in Truth. Love does NOT just give propaganda spin, Love tells it like it is to Prevent someone from falling in a ditch. Be informed, make Sure you have support and that includes Housing/Daycare support--before leaving, IF you do not, contact the Homeless Advocates in YOUR area and find out the situation for Women in your area, get as Much information as you can, find out about the Wait lists [and the gov, yes, the left as well as the right has cut housing aid to women/families for development] can be Three years, even More. Find out your info from Women who have BEEN on the streets, NOT from young women or professional women who have not a Clue what it is to be Single, With Children, No support, with Little money or job skills, and never have had to Work in the Sex industry to make it OR have been Homeless, do NOT believe the rhetoric or the political manipulations [fundie, religious or secular/atheist], because when it's YOUR ass on the streets, God forbid if that happens, they Won't be there, they never are. Get the truth, from those of us, who Have been there...who aren't in this to push for a religious OR an atheist or depopulation agenda, or what have you, from Women with Children who have Been there, been betrayed, been told All the same things, only to find when our backs were up against the wall the mentality changed, as if we had a plague...it happens and is Still happening to the Increasing Poverty/Homeless in this Nation Single Mothers with Children. that's mother's with two to three children, NOT 8, NOT 10, NOT 15. You deserve the truth...not just the other 'fairy tale', see videos for yourself, video of a woman I admire and have Worked with, pay attention to the Children/in the clip links to info following...IF you do need to leave, be Sure, to be Very INformed, prior to, much of the info esp in pamphlets is often outdated, every State differs in programs, as well as Cities/Rural areas. Also on my blog, there is a list, of Options, such as alternative housing, alternative transportation, Coops, Resources, etc., for you, IF you need them. They are NOT guarantees, but they are Options, not from any book or agenda, but from experience, by Women, including my self, who Have been forced onto the Streets, Homeless....I was fortunate, I got OFF the streets, the truth is however, my status though not well to do, improved when I remarried, when Single it was Crisis after Crisis. This is why I speak up. And will Continue to do so...and if many don't like it too bad. Yes I believe in God, it was God who saved my ass when I was on the streets with MY kids, NOT the secularists, NOT the politicians... The reality, you have the Right to know. What you Won't Hear on Media, the Real Face of Homelessness, Women with Children Fastest Growing Segment of Homeless in This Nation--lack of Affordable Housing I will be doing a series, possibly another blog, Just on this issue, with links to Economic Human Rights Org and other links...for now, some options for housing, that 'may' be feasible for some. I lived it...and know the system, the poverty industry [the exploitation of homeless], the Risks to women [women are more vulnerable to rape/assault when homeless including By police and in shelters/mixed], the criminalization esp by CPS, etc. Not by some college book, I LIVED it...Twice. So IF you leave, the More informed you are and that being informed of the yes strong realities that thousands of women Do contend with...the better off you will be. homesewersneedleworkersunion-hsnwu.blogspot.com/2010/04/so-you-are-contemplating-leaving.htmlJust so you know...patriarchy is horrid, granted, religious patriarchy is absolutely horrid, but the Misogyny and the Patriarchy does NOT end, when you walk out that door [don't care What many may tell you] nor does it guarantee you that you won't run/or contend with FAR WORSE misogyny, abuse, exploitation, both you AND your children [esp girls], Until we get Coops for Women in this nation, Until we get Policies that are for All women and not just for the well to do and Until we have politicians [including many Secularlists, Humanists, Feminists] who Stop SELLING WOMEN OUT to the Corporate-Technical interests, the Porn interests, the War interests, Women will be facing these harsh possibilities and realities more and more. Especially when low income women are demonized and even More so, Mothers. Truth, you have a right to hear it from All angles. Also, get info for your state, contact Coalition for the Homeless and also www.economichumanrights.org/m4ol/dailyreport/index.shtmlVideos for info, and for those who have huge issues with reading long posts, maybe Pictures, with sound bytes, be easier for ya. Also Rise in Women Veterans from Iraq Homeless, in This Nation, because you Won't hear much about it, nor the Rapes with impunity of OUR women in the Armed Services, in This country...so, just to Educate... monies for WAR but our Women are the number one growing segment of Poverty, Sexually Exploited [secularists not just religious] and Homeless in This Rich Nation of ours... ain't it just ironic, a God fearing Woman also can be a Radical Feminist for Women's Human Rights, just blows the stereotypes out the water now doesn't it? ;D Jane Jane
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Post by Sierra on Apr 28, 2010 4:59:00 GMT -5
Funny that it was the secular community of academics who saved me when I fled my abusive church and violent father. That they turned out to be my only real friends. Funny that it was an atheist professor who offered to let me live in his house when I had nowhere else to go. Funny that my atheist best friend and her husband hid me overnight and helped me get on a plane in the morning when I was afraid my father was going to come after me with a gun. Funny that the 'anti-god' secularist friends I made in college never blamed my mother and me for being in dire financial straits and losing our home, but my Catholic family and the members of our fundamentalist church did. Of course our life went to hell - we didn't have enough faith! If my mother would stop smoking and submit better, my father would stop cheating and abusing, right? Funny that it was my Catholic family who tried to get me to go back to my abusive father and keep the peace because I had hurt him by leaving. You can't paint all non-theists with the same brush anymore than any of us can claim that all Christians are hypocrites. I don't claim that. I don't know anyone who does claim that. Some people are good. Some people are willing to help others get back on their feet after at traumatic situation. Guess what? Religion doesn't determine who those people are. You can find them in churches and at Richard Dawkins conferences. Complicated, isn't it? I and a few others here are really sick of your paranoid anti-atheist tirade about how everyone in the secular world promises beds of roses to women escaping fundamentalism. Who has said it would be easy? Especially here at NLQ? Who, Jane? I can assure you that I, and most other people here, are well aware of what a woman loses by leaving. Most of us have had that experience ourselves. Do you want me to list the things I've lost? Yes, they include my family, an entire network of childhood friends and mentors, a home, and, well, financial stability has never been there. No one is denying the pain of leaving. What we all tend to agree on here at NLQ, however, is that all of that deeply traumatic pain and loss was worth it in the end because we found our souls again outside fundamentalism. You say you aren't trying to tell women to stay, but what else do you think you're accomplishing with this fearmongering about how the secular world is out to make their lives even more wretched than the fundamentalists are? The Take Heart Project should be evidence enough that atheists and Christians (and people of all other faiths) can work together to support women leaving abusive spiritual situations. You're telling women to be afraid of us, so how are they supposed to accept our help? No, the secular world isn't perfect. No one claims that it is. But it is a hell of a lot better than the lifeless existence I had before. Aw, but I'm an atheist academic, so I must just hate Jesus and puppies and want other women to be miserable.
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Post by nikita on Apr 28, 2010 5:36:09 GMT -5
I had a flash to a writing from one of my favorite twentieth century writers just now. Forgive me, but it was freaky accurate, stunningly on point. It is from 'Snow White' by Donald Barthelme:
DEAR MR. QUISTGAARD: Although you do not know me my name is Jane. I have seized your name from the telephone book in an attempt to enmesh you in my concerns. We suffer today I believe from a lack of connection with each other. That is common knowledge, so common in fact, that it may not even be true. It may be that we are overconnected, for all I know. However I am acting on the first assumption, that we are underconnected, and thus have flung you these lines, which you may grasp or let fall as you will. But I feel that if you neglect them, you will suffer for it. That is merely my private opinion. No police power supports it. I have no means of punishing you, Mr. Quistgaard, for not listening, for having a closed heart. There is no punishment for that, in our society. Not yet. But to the point. You and I, Mr. Quistgaard, are not in the same universe of discourse. You may have not been aware of it previously, but the fact of the matter is, that we are not. We exist in different universes of discourse. Now it may have appeared to you, prior to your receipt of this letter, that the universe of discourse in which you existed, and puttered about, was in all ways adequate and satisfactory. It may never have crossed your mind to think that other universes of discourse distinct from your own existed, with people in them, discoursing. You may have, in a common-sense way, regarded your u. of d. as a plenum, filled to the brim with discourse. You may have felt that what already existed was a sufficiency. People like you often do. That is certainly one way of regarding it, if fat self-satisfied complacency is your aim. But I say unto you, Mr. Quistgaard, that even a plenum can leak. Even a plenum, cher maître, can be penetrated. New things can rush into your plenum displacing old things, things that were formerly there. No man's plenum, Mr. Quistgaard, is impervious to the awl of God's will. Consider then your situation now. You are sitting there in your house on Neat Street, with your fine dog, doubtless, and your handsome wife and tall brown sons, conceivably, and who knows with your gun-colored Plymouth Fury in the driveway, and opinions passing back and forth, about whether the Grange should build a new meeting hall or not, whether the children should become Tomists or not, whether the pump needs more cup grease or not. A comfortable American scene. But I, Jane Villiers de l'Isle-Adam, am in possession of your telephone number, Mr. Quistgaard. Think what that means. It means that at any moment I can pierce your plenum with a single telephone call, simply by dialing 989-7777. You are correct, Mr. Quistgaard, in seeing this as a threatening situation. The moment I inject discourse from my u. of d. into your u. of d., the yourness of yours is diluted. The more I inject, the more you dilute. Soon you will be presiding over an empty plenum, or rather, since that is a contradiction in terms, over a former plenum, in terms of yourness. You are, essentially, in my power. I suggest an unlisted number.
Yours faithfully, J A N E
Imagine.
However, I stand by my original opinion. In terms of behavior on a mutually supportive internet forum this is indeed a heavy-handed verbal assault, approaching or perhaps even achieving troll status at this point. IMHO. Just sayin'
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Post by jemand on Apr 28, 2010 8:42:48 GMT -5
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Post by musicmom on Apr 28, 2010 9:18:00 GMT -5
You know, I really appreciate the point that Jane has made that it's important to know what's out there before you take the leap out of QF. I don't have a lot of time right now, but I was definitely shocked and surprised at much I found out after leaving.
I DID think that the whole problem was in my ex. I did think that when I got out of the abusive religion and away from the abusive man, that all would be ok because the world was a good, friendly place.
I was NOT prepared for the reaction that I got from the world. I saw myself as something of a heroine for leaving this abusive father. I thought that protecting my children was doing a huge service to society - the very society that would be containing the kids when they grew up. I felt that I was preventing another generation of character disordered individuals from starting families of their own, wreaking havok wherever they touched.
This is not the general reaction I got from the world. I was the suspect, must-be-crazy, lady in the shoe with all these kids. Kids who, I might add, were not acting particularly sweet and obedient because of the family upheaval and abuse that they had recently suffered.
I just didn't LOOK good to the world anymore. I looked great before - with my hard-working husband and all my kids standing in a well-scrubbed row. Suddenly, I didn't present that image anymore to the world and my reputation suffered as a result.
It's very subtle. It's the way "regular" moms look at me when they find out I'm divorced with a bunch of kids. You immediately get the feeling that it's all your fault for some reason. It's the way the teachers at school talk to you. It's the feeling you get at church from all the regular moms and families.
I was not expecting that kind of negative energy which I cannot seem to defend against or change. I was used to being held up as an example of good motherhood (sort of like Michele Duggar) even though I knew I didn't deserve it. I knew how bad things were in my house and how the children were suffering.
Now everyone is so much happier and actually has a chance of growing up without serious mental illness, but the rest of the world looks on dissapprovingly. They liked it better when I was faking my way through.
Jane is right - there is patriarchy and hatred of women everywhere in our society almost. It is embedded in the cultural group-think. It is embedded in my own mind, my earliest teachings. It is embedded in our institutions and social expectations.
There is a certain sense in which the QF lifestyle protected me from this un-named force. I am glad that I left it, but I DO wish that I had known more what I would face. Hatred of women is not contained in one man, or one church. It is everywhere and now I am facing it in my daily life. I do wish I had known that. It surprised me to a degree which I cannot even put into words.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 28, 2010 9:53:51 GMT -5
Well, I admit to being a lousy moderator ~ but I'm not so totally slack as to allow mean-spirited name calling like this. Jemand ~ wtf?
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Post by sargassosea on Apr 28, 2010 10:32:06 GMT -5
Holy cow.
This crap has got. to. stop. now.
Jane –
We get it.
All of us here understand that it is tough(er?) out here in the secular world. That’s why Vyckie is telling her story and asking other women to do the same. That is precisely why we are working on the Take Heart Project – because we know there is a staggering need for assistance designed especially for women with larger numbers of children.
Again, we get what you’re saying so there really is no need to keep repeating yourself.
And I am asking you now to stop. Please.
Jemand –
If you are going to claim to be a woman, then I ask that you grow up and act like one.
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Post by mommybunny1 on Apr 28, 2010 10:46:27 GMT -5
Hello. I do not wish to get into the argument about Janedoe although I do have an opinion. I do want to say something as person who comes from a somewhat different background. It is germane to the topic, however. If y'all wish for me to cite references, I will do that, but I think you actually all have enough background to follow the logic.
Patriarchy is a problem for women regardless of their religiosity. I agree with Jane there. Where my opinion diverges is that I still think that religion is the problem. For most people in Western culture, it is the Abrahamic deity that is at the core. Even those of us who consider ourselves to be secular live in a society structured around Abrahamic beliefs. this is the core of Patriarchy.
For women who are coming out of an extreme form of this lifestyle, the expectation that this will be a 'cure' to the Patriarchal life problems can lead to great hardship. The Patriarchal roles out here in the real world still exist. They are less intense and there is certainly the opportunity to free oneself in our own homes and to rebel and to educate others.
The system is set up to encourage women to be subservient and allow themselves to be under the domain of men for most things. For those leaving Extremism, it is enough to scare many right back into the fold.
Instead, I would encourage women to join their sisters in fighting this structure. It is not easy out here, but it is better. And we need to make it even better for the next generation. And even if it makes some people uncomfortable, it will require abandoning some of the biblical thought.
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Post by nikita on Apr 28, 2010 12:34:19 GMT -5
I don't think it's jane's message per se that is the actual problem though, it's the complete lack of respect for us as people and the way she beats us over the head with it that is so offputting. It's no different than those itinerant preachers who get in your face and scream at you that God!! Loves!! You!! over and over and over and just assume that a) you don't believe, b) or you don't believe properly, and c) there is nothing you can say or do that will convince that person that you 'get it'. Because to them the message is more important than the person standing in front of them. Or like those old time communists that always declared they were working for 'the people', that 'the people' were the only ones deserving of rights and assistance all the while having no problem dehumanizing and destroying any actual people they came across in their efforts to make things better for the theoretical people 'out there' somewhere.
Jane triggers this in me when she 'yells' on the forum at us in the way she does. I feel dehumanized and unimportant to the 'message'. She does not know me. She does not care to know me. She will bulldoze right over me in the name of whatever her 'cause' is right now without thought or a glance back. That is how I feel.
As for the external culture, a lot of how you are perceived and reacted to in the world depends on the community in which you find yourselves when you leave. I think a lot of this is regional. Some parts of the US (I don't know about other places in this regard) are shaped more by secular institutions whereas others are shaped more by religion. The reaction you get is going to be different in Los Angeles (my turf) than it is in Alabama or Texas or Arkansas. I have never experienced a secular patriarchal attitude in my personal life in LA outside of religious spheres. I imagine that is a lot different in a region where christian fundamentalists have a greater pull on the environment around them. It certainly seems so from the rhetoric of politicians from other parts of the country, that's for sure.
Having a lot of kids and being dependent is considered, for much of secular society, as a great error in judgment. The snide, 'there's a cure for that, you know' reaction that is so common. I don't see that changing any time soon. The Mormon fundamentalist women who try to leave face the same problem: lots of kids, mothers who have been denied or discouraged from achieving education that would get them a really good paying job to support said kids, and usually no outside assistance from other family members who could help. There are a handful of organizations who understand their peculiar needs and try to help but it's a drop in the bucket. Honestly those trying to assist QF women and daughters to leave could learn from those who have been helping Mormon fundamentalist women and girls to leave.
The greater society, though, will not really be engaged in the problem nor should we expect them to be. I mean it'd be great if they were, but they are just pre-programmed to disdain and not understand the life choices made in the first place. And they have their hands full with people in need in general so resources are tight and attention is short. Rather than decrying the lack of assistance we need to ask ourselves what assistance we might offer once we have the means to do so. The Take Heart project, for instance, is one way of doing this. Something constructive. Something that would respect the beliefs of whichever woman they are trying to help, being sensitive to those who are believers but just need help out of a horrible situation, or those who are conflicted about their faith, or those who have lost faith entirely. My old religious leader used to say all the time that 'God meets you whereever you are right now'. It would be great if we could create or influence helping organizations to meet these women 'wherever they are right now' and offer them assistance at that level and with that amount of respect.
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hrd
New Member
Posts: 46
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Post by hrd on Apr 28, 2010 13:42:44 GMT -5
I want to apologize for my "accusations" regarding JaneDoe. I really was suspicious for a while, but it is probably best if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt. i don't think anyone intended to drive her away--just suggesting she communicate in a gentler, clearer manner.
I really do have to agree with others. I feel attacked when I read her posts. I also do not appreciate having to divine what she is trying to say. I've taken many courses on rhetoric, post-structuralism, post-gender whatever. I have copies of Derrida and Cixous on my nightstand. I get the whole subversion of language thing, but I don't think it is helpful to purposely confuse people. JaneDoe-esque messages don't serve to subvert the Patriarchy, they serve as an attack against the folks who are already trying to subvert the Patriarchy.
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Post by rosa on Apr 28, 2010 14:11:48 GMT -5
Just a minute. Jemand was rude (but truthful) but calling her names in response isn't helpful, either. It's no more or less rude to call JaneDoe out on her own statements than it is for her to claim to leave (because of our persecution and, what, complicity with the patriarchy?) and then come back for another screed in the style several people have said feels like an attack.
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Post by janedoe on Apr 28, 2010 14:22:25 GMT -5
Respect?
Let's cut through the B.S. here shall we,
1. From the first day I posted here, not using caps btw in first days, I was
a) criticized and mocked for the Style of my writing
b) accused of being a racist for mentioning patriarchal AND misogynist abuses in other religions
c) ridiculed for having 'alternative' Christian feminist/eco views
d) set apart for 'digs' that were Obvious to most who can read by a few 'gatekeepers' of the more extreme anti-mother lot which is Misogyny btw, for thinking outside the box or group think
e) demonized for standing UP for reproductive Rights and for a Woman's right to Have children if she so choose
f) labeled as a neo-con for having that stand And then When I posted empirical evidence about women who have been harmed by depopulation programs that are Clearly misogynist [fact, sterilization of women of color but odd isn't it, you don't hear screaming about Men getting vasectomies by these depopulation elites who really aren't about Women's Human rights as much as they are for for utilizing policies to rid of any who They deem as 'not worthy to live on the planet' due to the lack of renewable resources, the Malthus lot that is who are Yes, anti-God and NOT just anti-God but anti-indigenous peoples who are pagan/animist, many of them Racist to the core, many of them elitists [only the smartest/brightest/best DNA should have rights to live ideological camps] and Yes those ideological camps are here and do have an agenda--why there are several of them here that act as 'gatekeepers'
g) been labeled, ridiculed, called crazy, etc., for Daring to bring out the Misogyny that is Yes, rampant in the other ideological camps that Do manipulate Real Abuses in religions for other agendas, NOT from a religious right wing voice but from one who Worked in these ideologies and knows their hypocrisy very well and the Harms that yes, they do to not just a few women but Thousands of women
And
1. I have NOT labeled any person here crazy,
2. I have NOT gone on and one about Any one's long posts here [and there are Numerous btw]
3. I have Never attacked anyone here on their 'writing' style
4. I have Never even when attacked Personally given anyone a 'bad karma' mark
5. I have Never singled out Any 'poster' here for ridicule or attacked them Personally nor attacked their views Based on their faith or no faith--I have however confronted ISSUES AND IDEOLOGY...WITH never, undermining NOR refuting NOR Demonizing any who have yes suffered the very Real and On going patriarchal and misogynist abuses under religion and Christianity
6. I have Never sent anyone emails telling them to 'get help'
7. I have not gone out of my way to force a group think or demonization of certain belief systems here...confronting Flaws is NOT the same as the whole Us verses Them
8. I Have apologized in an attempt to bridge differences here, I cannot say the same respect has Ever been shown me here
9. I do use Caps to emphasize Points that are deliberately 'neglected', 'trivialized' because they Do and ARE real obstacles that Numerous women find themselves living in the Reality of who Have left abuse and sweeping them under the rug does These women a real diservice and they Do have importance, IF they fly in the face of 'ideology' that Still does NOT justify refusing to Address them because real women are suffering Because of them...not just a few, Thousands upon Thousands, NOT just religious, but non-religious
Here's some facts,
1. Yes, the ultra-patriarchal cults/religions Do use scripture to Abuse, to Create environments that abuse, etc...one thing however, is that they are OPEN and even many Public on their beliefs, so we KNOW what they are about, for the most part
on the Other hand
2. There are other 'secular' and non-religious Ideological Camps that Use these abuses who are NOT so OPEN and HONEST about Their ideologies OR their 'ends' AND they Won't be...so you Don't KNOW what you are up against NOR what the Future would be IF these ideologies succeed, and These camps DO USE
THESE YES, ABUSES IN RELIGION--WOMEN ESPECIALLY--FOR AIMS THAT ARE FAR FROM WOMAN FRIENDLY, MANY OF THEM ARE DOWN RIGHT
MISOGYNIST TO THE CORE. FACT.
3. Let's NOT forget, it was the ACLU who took the CASE to Protect and Fight the State of Texas over the Mormon girls who Were being Raped, under the Protection of Religion...
NOT the Heritage Family Foundation, it was Atheists, who Fought fo the Rights of these Pedophile abusing MEN, FACT [one they don't like to Talk about, and that isn't the ONLY case, by FAR--so if you want to talk about Religion being the Only culprit of patriarchal misogyny--then you're Way off, because FACT, there are Numerous Non-Religious who are working to Protect not just pedophilia [child sex abuse/which IS misogyny] but protecting Porn Industry and Exploitative Labor Industries that harm Women,
using women, the poor and marginalized esp, as FODDER, and you Bet, they target policies and nuclear families, etc., NOT because they CARE about women,
but because like the Religious Misogynists, they Too want Cheap labor [why they don't like to get into issues of Racism and Class prejudice] and more segments of Women/children to yes, exploit, a.k.a. the sex industries, Why? Because it's good for Commerce and Tourism that's why,
it's a top to down infrastructure, a trickle down, Misogynist as hell and it IS a deliberate construct, make No mistake about it.
And the Most vulnerable to being Exploited by Such [policies and ideologies]
Women with Children
who Leave abuse...or who are low income, etc.
Actually, these ideology camps do more to Assist the growth of the Ultra-religious patriarchal and/or nationalists patriarchs Because more women who Live with the Reality verses the Rhetoric will be in situations where their only means of Protection from Exploitation is yes,
communities and marriage. This is sociological fact btw, the economic status of women improves with marriage, Especially if she has Children.
Fact, the number one increasing Segment of Poverty and vulnerable to Exploitation in This country is Women with Children, Single heads of households, that is FACT, not rhetoric, not religion, but FACT
FACT, there is no safety nets or few for them--FACT, the Demonization of mothers had a LOT to do with this...FACT.
FACT, womb hate IS Misogyny.
FACT, Misogyny isn't always just religious Patriarchy.
FACT, these facts aren't just little nuisances, these FACTS are Destroying the lives of Thousands of women and children in this country, and will Continue to do so as long as the ideological camps are allowed to Monopolize women's oppression as their 'means' for other political and philosophical 'agenda's that are Fact, Just as if not more so, Misogynist and Exploitative.
So one claims we must dismantle the Bible,
I say, which Parts?
The ten texts used over by ultra-patriarchs that are used to abuse women
OR
how about the over 400 Scriptures that say,
do NOT oppress the widow/woman do NOT oppress the Fatherless [that would include women/single parents] do NOT oppress the Immigrant do NOT oppress the Laborer and do NOT cheat in Wages do NOT set up economic systems that Create POVERTY do NOT ignore the plight of the poor, exploited, etc do NOT pass your children through the fire [meaning sexual abuse/exploitation for lust or for Greed]
do you want to Dismantle Those over 400 scriptures Too?
You see the Bible can be used by those who desire to oppress and do evil OR
for those who want to do good, justice, equality.
The Civil Rights movement in this nation, the Abolitionist movement in this nation, the Women's Rights movement in this nation, the Human Rights
all had Basis, all had many Revolutionaries who Fought, standing on
the
BIBLE.
FACT.
Numerous Domestic and Rape Crisis shelters in This nation were started by
Christian Women, who Stand on the Bible. FACT
Many who are working to free women from sexual exploitation [prostitution, etc] stand on the Bible, FACT.
on the Other hand
many relativists and atheists, esp in the science fields [social esp] are and Have worked to
legalize pedophilia, FACT, in Europe they are demonizing and somewhat dismissing the Abuses of Thousands of women/children more and more...if That isn't Misogyny or a Worse kind of Patriarchal abuse, what the Hell is?
they have worked to promote 'anti-human rights- especially where gendercide and genocide is concerned, using 'environment' as the 'tool' to Justify elitism...
they have worked to force sterilization policies that were HORRID and Abusive to WOMEN, not to men, in many underdeveloped nations Meanwhile,
supporting Those policies/leaders who are Extremely patriarchal, misogynist, who are anti-communal [and these people are NOT Christian btw, we're talking India, Guatemala, Honduras, Brazil/Amazon, indigenous peoples], that not only instill but Protect some of the Worst policies that keep women in subjugation/poverty
and so forth.
I won't Even go into the Ethics problems in the genetics and fertility science 'gods' there, but many Women centered feminists are warning about misogynist programs that will be a Nightmare for women...
Point is, it's ONE Thing to confront religious patriarchy, abuses, cults,
it's another to do so, while Refusing to confront patriarchy on the other side of the coin that WORKS MORE TO AID THE GROWTH OF FUNDAMENTALISM AND CULTS/RELIGIOUS RATHER THAN DISMANTLE THEM
because they in themselves, the ideologies, are Just if not more so
Misogynist to the CORE.
To bring this out, because it is the basic idea that this forum is anti-patriarchal and anti-abuse in religions AND cults--and to be Demonized for that,
says volumes.
That it's more important for Many here to use these abuses for the purposes of ridding of religion/or demonizing Christianity,
not so much, to confront Patriarchy and damn sure not to confront Misogyny...
which really, is just more Exploitation of women, who have already suffered abuse at the hands of Engineers.
So, want to slam me, Fine,
but I'll say it, it needs to be said...There is a Difference,
between helping women, in ridding the world of patriarchy and misogyny,
and
just using misogyny in religion, to rid the world of religion but to protect Worse forms of Misogyny, woman hate--
the Cults don't Hide their misogyny
what I find repulsive, is those Secularists, who Do hide it...under a veneer,
of anti-patriarchy.
I'll call them on it. Damn right I will...
and any Thinking woman, should do so too.
It's the Difference, between Critical Thinking
and being brainwashed, by Group Think that is cleverly manipulated by another agenda, that is not that different from the religious engineers.
Truth sucks doesn't it?
A voice, from one who Knows the ideology camps well, who Worked in them, who Fought for them,
they are far more sinister, and the impacts if They succeed, on Women, will be much harder, to escape from--impossible in fact, because like those who desire theocracy totalitarian systems, these Friendly Fascists,
will be far more dangerous.
Don't be fooled.
Jane this Will be my last post here...I will be posting this on my blog, Women, have the Right, to hear All sides,
if not, then it's NO different, from the Brainwashing in religious Cults.
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Post by sisof9 on Apr 28, 2010 16:23:02 GMT -5
If you are actually leaving goodbye Jane. I really DO hope that many women are blessed through your blog and that you are able to minister to many with your wisdom. I am sorry I couldn't understand, but I really AM grateful others could.
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Post by arietty on Apr 28, 2010 18:12:06 GMT -5
You know, I really appreciate the point that Jane has made that it's important to know what's out there before you take the leap out of QF. I don't have a lot of time right now, but I was definitely shocked and surprised at much I found out after leaving. I DID think that the whole problem was in my ex. I did think that when I got out of the abusive religion and away from the abusive man, that all would be ok because the world was a good, friendly place. I was NOT prepared for the reaction that I got from the world. I saw myself as something of a heroine for leaving this abusive father. I thought that protecting my children was doing a huge service to society - the very society that would be containing the kids when they grew up. I felt that I was preventing another generation of character disordered individuals from starting families of their own, wreaking havok wherever they touched. This is not the general reaction I got from the world. I was the suspect, must-be-crazy, lady in the shoe with all these kids. Kids who, I might add, were not acting particularly sweet and obedient because of the family upheaval and abuse that they had recently suffered. I just didn't LOOK good to the world anymore. I looked great before - with my hard-working husband and all my kids standing in a well-scrubbed row. Suddenly, I didn't present that image anymore to the world and my reputation suffered as a result. It's very subtle. It's the way "regular" moms look at me when they find out I'm divorced with a bunch of kids. You immediately get the feeling that it's all your fault for some reason. It's the way the teachers at school talk to you. It's the feeling you get at church from all the regular moms and families. I was not expecting that kind of negative energy which I cannot seem to defend against or change. I was used to being held up as an example of good motherhood (sort of like Michele Duggar) even though I knew I didn't deserve it. I knew how bad things were in my house and how the children were suffering. Now everyone is so much happier and actually has a chance of growing up without serious mental illness, but the rest of the world looks on dissapprovingly. They liked it better when I was faking my way through. Jane is right - there is patriarchy and hatred of women everywhere in our society almost. It is embedded in the cultural group-think. It is embedded in my own mind, my earliest teachings. It is embedded in our institutions and social expectations. There is a certain sense in which the QF lifestyle protected me from this un-named force. I am glad that I left it, but I DO wish that I had known more what I would face. Hatred of women is not contained in one man, or one church. It is everywhere and now I am facing it in my daily life. I do wish I had known that. It surprised me to a degree which I cannot even put into words. Tried to snip something here Musicmom but was afraid your other points would get lost in the thread so just quoted the whole thing. I had the same experiences you list here AND I had similar experiences to Sierra. Yes I was suddenly a single mom with a huge family and in the eyes of, well, EVERYONE that is a very bad thing. Drain on society, irresponsible breeding, people don't see a family they see a mob of unruly kids who don't have a MALE to keep 'em in line. So of course all is chaos. This attitude is a product of deep seated misogyny within our culture. I won't say I was totally unprepared for it though, I had known a few single parent families and I knew I was in one swift chop cutting myself off from Respectability by becoming a single female parent of a large amount of children. What I was unprepared for was my exiling from the church which I still thought, right up until about 5 minutes after my marriage broke up, would love me and take care of me. That is the area I was supremely naive about. Like Sierra I found support from the world, non-church people. I remember on more than one occasion women saying to me when hearing of my history, "No one should have to put up with abuse, you did the right thing, thank goodness you are out of that situation." I heard this from women in government departments I had to interact with, women who owned shops I frequented, strangers on public transport I got into conversation with. It was very very striking to me that this was a natural response from non-church women because not once did I hear anything remotely like this from the church, from old friends, from pastors wives, from anyone with a christian agenda. No from them I heard, "I will pray for reconciliation". Which is one big effing slap in the face when you've used every bit of emotional, physical, financial, spiritual and mental energy to crawl out from under the oppression of an abuser who was destroying you and your family. Oh yeah, we'll pray you go back to that hellhole. I remember thinking many times how weird it was that the world said it was good to leave an abuser and the church said lets work to put you back there. This was all more than 10 years ago (though the negatives from the church continue to this day). One thing I have tried hard to do is to be pro-woman in my interactions ever since. I try and be supportive of women whenever I hear they are leaving a partner, try and affirm single moms whenever I get the chance. I know how just being told, "you are doing a great job, your child is SO <something positive>" really encourages a mom. I have worked hard to be an encourager of woman in all settings. And you can bet I have nothing but GREAT things to say to any mom of many
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hrd
New Member
Posts: 46
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Post by hrd on Apr 28, 2010 18:30:55 GMT -5
I was not expecting that kind of negative energy which I cannot seem to defend against or change. I was used to being held up as an example of good motherhood (sort of like Michele Duggar) even though I knew I didn't deserve it. I knew how bad things were in my house and how the children were suffering. Like Sierra I found support from the world, non-church people. I remember on more than one occasion women saying to me when hearing of my history, "No one should have to put up with abuse, you did the right thing, thank goodness you are out of that situation." I heard this from women in government departments I had to interact with, women who owned shops I frequented, strangers on public transport I got into conversation with. It was very very striking to me that this was a natural response from non-church women because not once did I hear anything remotely like this from the church, from old friends, from pastors wives, from anyone with a christian agenda. No from them I heard, "I will pray for reconciliation". Which is one big effing slap in the face when you've used every bit of emotional, physical, financial, spiritual and mental energy to crawl out from under the oppression of an abuser who was destroying you and your family. Oh yeah, we'll pray you go back to that hellhole. I remember thinking many times how weird it was that the world said it was good to leave an abuser and the church said lets work to put you back there. I think that is goes even deeper than misogyny--thought that certainly is a factor! I think that this disapproval of large families also has to do with the underlying values of capitalism. We (and I am generalizing her, of course) only value the production of capital. everything is built around a consumer culture. So if you have children, who are seen as an indulgence by some, they have no inherent value in the capitalist system until they are in the workforce. We don't seem to really value human beings until they are helping shareholders somewhere to get bigger dividends.
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Post by tapati on Apr 28, 2010 21:18:53 GMT -5
Well, I too left my abusive husband with two children to support. I was only ever homeless WITH HIM. Once I took charge of our lives we always had a roof over our heads and food on the table and medical care--given out by those godless patriarchal folks. Sure, patriarchy exists outside of the overblown religious version. Sure we feminists are still pushing for change. Sure it isn't automatically paradise when one leaves. There are problems to confront and much work to do.
But at the end of the day, within the four walls of my home, my children were safe and living in a peaceful environment. No one was being beaten or intimidated or verbally abused. I can't begin to put a price on that.
Oh yeah, and that patriarchal society helped me go to school, gave me grants and scholarships and loans, and helped me get out of poverty.
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Post by tapati on Apr 28, 2010 21:23:40 GMT -5
Let me add up the help I got:
food stamps medical care a monthly cash grant subsidized housing (at one point I paid 27 dollars a month for a three bedroom apartment) WIC coupons (for nourishing foods while my kids were still babies or toddlers) Pell grants for school Scholarships for school--at one point 18K to pay for 3 years Work study at school low cost phone service (lifeline) help with electric/gas bill help with resume/job search when I was ready to look for work mentoring and support from my feminist and other teachers help from other parents
(Thank you one and all!)
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