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Post by AustinAvery on Feb 11, 2010 16:54:30 GMT -5
My wife (and I) made just that discovery. And we call the discovery "Patrick." And he's a delight, by the way. Oh, congratulations on Patrick! I feel sure that a mother, with good support, can recover well from just two very closely-spaced pregnancies. But where I think it gets dangerous, is where she and her husband discover this about her fertility, and yet do nothing to space further pregnancies. Well, I probably shouldn't be telling tales out of school here, but almost immediately after Patrick came out safe and sound, my wife handed me the phone and told me it was my urologist, confirming my appointment ...
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Post by rosa on Feb 11, 2010 17:09:55 GMT -5
Congratulations, AustinAvery! On the baby and the snip!
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 11, 2010 17:17:44 GMT -5
I can so relate to everything that has been said here. I, too felt like if he was unhappy, God was angry with me. Since the man was using drugs to self medicate and has some kind of mental disorder ( he would never go for treatment.. I suspect bipolar or worse, there were incidences of hallucinations on his part) there were a LOT of days I felt like God was angry with me.
I remember that horrid little paradigm drawing about what was at the center of your life.... and if you were the center of your life, you would idolize such trivial things like your health.
I just looked on Amazon to see if that part of it was up on the " Look Inside!" section.. it wasnt' But what I did see was ever more telling.
93% of the people who view that item buy it. only 3% of those people who view that item buy its compliment "The Exemplary Husband".
Abigail.... listen to these ladies. Don't do it. You seem like a nice woman, not the kind of woman I'd meet on the boards who were more like Vyckie's midwife... don't do it.
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Post by km on Feb 11, 2010 17:48:27 GMT -5
It's been quite a while since I've had a chance to post here, but I did want to say... I do think people are being a bit patronizing to Abigailmae. She doesn't seem to have come here asking for advice. I think opinion is fine, but... As a feminist-identified woman, I still have to say... The moment other feminists start telling me how I should feel about something, what I should/should not do, what I need examine about my life in order to be better... It starts to make me twitch.
But, beyond that, I think discussions about how the QF lifestyle affected the people here are far more productive than admonitions about what one should or shouldn't do. And it's important to me that women's choices are respected in places like this.
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Post by susan on Feb 11, 2010 18:08:44 GMT -5
Well, I probably shouldn't be telling tales out of school here, but almost immediately after Patrick came out safe and sound, my wife handed me the phone and told me it was my urologist, confirming my appointment ... Oh, congratulations -- but you DO know you can get that reversed (just kidding!).
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Post by susan on Feb 11, 2010 18:09:53 GMT -5
I can so relate to everything that has been said here. I, too felt like if he was unhappy, God was angry with me. Since the man was using drugs to self medicate and has some kind of mental disorder ( he would never go for treatment.. I suspect bipolar or worse, there were incidences of hallucinations on his part) there were a LOT of days I felt like God was angry with me. runawaybride -- ((((hug))))
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Post by susan on Feb 11, 2010 18:22:01 GMT -5
It's been quite a while since I've had a chance to post here, but I did want to say... I do think people are being a bit patronizing to Abigailmae. She doesn't seem to have come here asking for advice. I think opinion is fine, but... As a feminist-identified woman, I still have to say... The moment other feminists start telling me how I should feel about something, what I should/should not do, what I need examine about my life in order to be better... It starts to make me twitch. But, beyond that, I think discussions about how the QF lifestyle affected the people here are far more productive than admonitions about what one should or shouldn't do. And it's important to me that women's choices are respected in places like this. I definitely agree with respecting women's choices. Abagailmae, I apologize if I came across as patronizing, or as telling you step-by-step how to live your life. In my post to you, I was not really thinking about specifically what you should do -- I was more thinking about how I hope you'll stay awake. You know, keep evaluating your choices as you go, and determining what is working and what isn't. It's not for me to say what will work for other people. Although it concerns me to hear about some women having a baby every year, maybe some women really can handle this and stay healthy. It's like, when I was approaching 40 and still hoping to have a second baby, one friend was telling me how 40 would be too old for her. But she felt like only I could know what age was too old for me. In a similar way, a baby a year would be very taxing on me -- but who am I to say what's too taxing for another woman? And of course I'm really glad we had our second daughter! She was born just a couple of months before my 41st birthday -- at home, and I got all my prenatal care with my independent mindwife (who I didn't start seeing until my last trimester of pregnancy). I never felt a need to go to the doctor or have any of the prenatal tests that were recommended, especially for women over 40. I would have gone to the doctor if any abnormal stuff had been happening, but it was a smooth pregnancy and I just felt really at peace about it. Lots of people would say that I was crazy and irresponsible to not have an amniocentesis since I was over 40. But I felt (and still feel) good about all of the choices that I made. The key point is, I never put my brain to sleep. I stayed awake and I stayed empowered. This is what I hope for for you, too!
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em
Full Member
Posts: 176
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Post by em on Feb 11, 2010 22:52:15 GMT -5
Lots of people would say that I was crazy and irresponsible to not have an amniocentesis since I was over 40. But I felt (and still feel) good about all of the choices that I made. Idk who those lots of people are, but they're idiots (no offense. lol). Amnio or cvs (chorionic vili sampling, basically the same idea but done a little sooner in the pregnancy) are not needed or required. Drs. will refer you to a genetic counselor if you're over 35 because at that point the risk the baby having a chromosomal abnormality is apparently high enough that they want you to know a little more about it and your options. Even so, the odds are still very small (like 1% of having a baby with Downs Syndrome, the most common genetic abnormality). Also, when they tell you about these tests they are, or should be, very explicit that you don't need to take it, it is just an option. They point out that it's still a small odds of anything being wrong, and just let you know those tests are available if you want to know for sure. You shouldn't be pressured to take them. If you are, people are ignorant and ill informed about it. (Sorry, I just really wanted to be a genetic counselor. I am such a nerd.)
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Post by susan on Feb 12, 2010 12:43:24 GMT -5
Oh, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that lots of people were directly saying stuff to me! I just mean that, reading as much as I do, I know that lots of people think it's socially-irresponsible to have a baby later in life if you're not willing to test for problems and abort if there are any. I'm not by any means saying that this is the majority of the population -- but I think a significant number think it's "irresponsible" to not do everything in one's power to prevent a severely -disabled child from coming into the world. At any rate, it seems kind of off-topic that I'm going on about this. I was just trying to express to Abagailme, the fact that it's not so much that I was trying to tell her specifically what she should do with her own life -- rather, I was encouraging her to stay awake and keep thinking! And make her own choices. Some of my choices might actually seem to fit the QF or Patriarchy-model or what-have-you. It's not important whether my life looks empowered and feminist to everyone else. What matters is that I truly AM empowered.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 12, 2010 13:04:22 GMT -5
I can so relate to everything that has been said here. I, too felt like if he was unhappy, God was angry with me. Since the man was using drugs to self medicate and has some kind of mental disorder ( he would never go for treatment.. I suspect bipolar or worse, there were incidences of hallucinations on his part) there were a LOT of days I felt like God was angry with me. Runawaybride, Scary thought to realize that we put our own self-worth in the hands of a personality-disordered, very fallible, human being. No wonder i felt like I was losing my mind half the time. And, in true QF training, I would always question MYSELF. What had I done wrong that day to deserve this crazy browbeating that I (or the kids) were receiving. Even though I knew that sometimes he was just in a bad mood, I still believed that God was trying to tell me something because he was, after all, my divine head and the source of God's approval for me. I'm still kind of angry at God for putting me through that. There's a part of me that wonders how the divine good in the universe could allow me to be so led-astray in His/Her name, but yet - that is the age-old question: why so much suffering can exist. But spiritual abuse seems so particularly painful that I still ask the question.
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Post by coleslaw on Feb 12, 2010 13:27:51 GMT -5
The problem with available prenatal testing, if I am not mistaken, is that you can't tell how severely disabled a child will be just knowing what the diagnosis is. Spina bifida can be so mild that it can't be detected without a medical exam or so severe that it severely impacts quality of life. Down Syndrome can leave a person able to talk, perform self care skills and even hold simple paying jobs, or it can require life long care. Even babies who appear to be perfect at birth can go on to develop serious disabilities. If we had a prenatal test for autism, I doubt it would screen out that odd guy who works in accounting, can crunch numbers like no one's business but never seems to get a joke from someone who spends his life rocking back and forth and staring at his fingers. So even if you know that you are bearing a child with a disability, you don't know if that disability is going to prevent that child from leading a happy life. Given that that's the case, if you also have a strong belief that abortion is wrong, I can see going for having the child and hoping for the best.
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Post by journey on Feb 12, 2010 13:49:23 GMT -5
*shakes head*
Are you me?
Parallel lives, it must be. Freaky.
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Post by philosophia on Feb 12, 2010 13:55:07 GMT -5
*shakes head* Are you me? Parallel lives, it must be. Freaky. Three of a kind.
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Post by susan on Feb 12, 2010 15:28:27 GMT -5
So even if you know that you are bearing a child with a disability, you don't know if that disability is going to prevent that child from leading a happy life. Given that that's the case, if you also have a strong belief that abortion is wrong, I can see going for having the child and hoping for the best. Yes, this is an excellent point. I've even heard that the bloodwork they do, to detect "likelihood" of problems, can cause expectant mothers a lot of stress. Because you can get an abnormal number and still have everything be fine. I have no problem for any and all tests being an option that a mother can choose -- I just absolutely do not think that any mother should feel pressured into any test. Even the risk-free bloodtest. For someone like me who would not be willing to abort, there's absolutely no purpose to those kinds of tests anyway. Except that I guess you could prepare yourself that there "might" be a problem ... Except, as you say, for the fact that you still really have no idea about the extent of the disability anyhow. So you still don't really know what to prepare for.
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Post by childerowland on Feb 12, 2010 15:35:00 GMT -5
Aaarrgghh Martha Peace!!! I read that book as part of a dissertation. It was truly sickening.
Possibly what I found most disturbing was the chapter entitled ‘Intimacy: The Wife’s Response’, in which it says that a wife should never refuse sex (well, unless she is ‘providentially hindered or the couple had agreed to temporarily refrain from sex because of devoting themselves to prayer’. Peace writes: 'When a wife does not have sex with her husband and she knows that he has that desire, she must ask herself if she is being selfish and putting herself first. If so, she is defrauding him’. 'Because responding to her husband physically is a command from God, when the wife obeys she is showing love to God as well as to her husband by not defrauding him.'
I don't think it's possible for women to be abused by men in Peace's worldview...even if a man hit his wife I imagine she would argue that it was the wife's fault for driving him to do it.
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Post by km on Feb 12, 2010 16:03:53 GMT -5
Possibly what I found most disturbing was the chapter entitled ‘Intimacy: The Wife’s Response’, in which it says that a wife should never refuse sex (well, unless she is ‘providentially hindered or the couple had agreed to temporarily refrain from sex because of devoting themselves to prayer’. Peace writes: 'When a wife does not have sex with her husband and she knows that he has that desire, she must ask herself if she is being selfish and putting herself first. If so, she is defrauding him’. What do Christian fundamentalists mean by "defrauding"? I never heard that word used in this way.
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Post by childerowland on Feb 12, 2010 16:05:58 GMT -5
I took it to mean 'refusing to give him what is rightfully his'.
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Post by km on Feb 12, 2010 16:07:44 GMT -5
Except, as you say, for the fact that you still really have no idea about the extent of the disability anyhow. So you still don't really know what to prepare for. Um, yeah, about this subthread... Some of us who are disabled would not like to see people like us erased from the human gene pool. Disability-screening can be extremely ableist in intent and is a modern day descendent of the eugenics movement. I believe in a woman's right to choose an abortion, but disability-screening itself makes me incredibly nervous.
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Post by km on Feb 12, 2010 16:08:45 GMT -5
I took it to mean 'refusing to give him what is rightfully his'. Okay, thanks... That does make sense. Even though I know how this mindset works, it's still surprising to see people described as property. Er... I guess I mean...referred to in proprietary terms.
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Post by philosophia on Feb 12, 2010 16:21:27 GMT -5
I took it to mean 'refusing to give him what is rightfully his'. This is exactly what the term "defrauding" means in Christian culture. It is akin to theft.
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 12, 2010 17:34:32 GMT -5
*shakes head* Are you me? Parallel lives, it must be. Freaky. Three of a kind. Four, actually. I said it in the first place. So, does this give us cult status? ;D
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Post by runawaybride on Feb 12, 2010 17:36:50 GMT -5
what, precisely, is "providentially hindered" ??
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Post by susan on Feb 12, 2010 17:50:37 GMT -5
what, precisely, is "providentially hindered" ?? Menstruating? In labor, or still recovering from childbirth? KM, I agree with you that I don't like the idea of eliminating people with disabilities from the human gene pool.
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Post by susan on Feb 12, 2010 17:54:13 GMT -5
When QF/P folks talk about defrauding, is there ever any thought about what a wife should do if her husband sometimes defrauds her desire for sex?
Or is it just assumed that "nice girls" don't initiate sex anyway?
As I recall, Debi Pearl talks about how dominance is masculine -- so maybe this would also apply to taking the initiative in sex -- as in, if a woman is initiating, then she's stepping out of her feminine role into a role that she doesn't belong in anyway?
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Post by susan on Feb 12, 2010 17:59:47 GMT -5
I mean, I'm thinking of how some hardcore Patriarchists advocate for a husband to bring his wife before the elders if she's not giving him sex when he wants it ...
I wonder if a wife in a Patriarchal church has ever followed this procedure regarding a husband who's not "putting out" as frequently as she would like?
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