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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 18, 2009 8:51:17 GMT -5
Please post any relevant questions which you'd like to see addressed in the NLQ FAQ here. Thanks so much.
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Post by tapati on May 18, 2009 12:08:02 GMT -5
One of the things I'd like to see is a glossary of terms. For instance, you've already written about the way the word "convict" or "convicted" is used differently. I'm sure there are other words or phrases that mean something special to those in the QF lifestyle.
Also, when I first started reading about QF, I wasn't sure if there was a unified movement with a central organization or what. It sounds like, from what I've been reading on your blog and here, that it's more of a loose collection of home and other churches unified by newsletters and other media rather than just one group. (Sort of like us pagans, LOL.)
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Post by edwina on May 18, 2009 12:27:56 GMT -5
I think one that we've already seen twice would be "I have a loved one who may be getting involved in religious extremism and I am concerned about her/him. What can I do?"
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Post by Kaderin on May 20, 2009 16:28:28 GMT -5
Well, I already posted my suggestions in the other thread, but here are they again =D Now about the website FAQ. I've given it some thought and came up with this: 1. What is QF? (A summary of the doctrine, maybe a literature list of books that lead down that path)
2. Who are you? (Introduction of Vicky and Laura, links to their stories)
3. What's this site about? (To raise awareness of a harmful doctrine, broad outline of criticism points)And then start the questions rebutting objections raised so far. This also has the great effect of preemptively striking trolls. 4. What's wrong with female submission/male leadership? (sanctions emotional abuse and even creates abusers; happy relationships are with spouses treating each other as partners, even if nominally with headship)
5. Your experiences are subjective, how can you say the problem lies with the QF doctrine and not with your individual relationship? (doctrine gave power to the abuser, sides with him over the victim, places responsibility on victim (Be more submissive!) and allows no escape(divorce))
6. I'm a happy QF wife/husband, I am not abused/abusive, how dare you make broad judgement about the happiness of our relationship? (link to the blog post "Dear happy QFers" or a reply along the same lines)Aaaand that's all I can think of right now. A very broad outline - feel free to add or critizise!
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Post by rosa on May 20, 2009 16:51:07 GMT -5
"is Quiverfull a denomination?"
i just got asked this by the person i passed my copy of Quiverfull on to.
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Post by kisekileia on May 21, 2009 1:14:20 GMT -5
"How does a family's involvement in the Quiverfull movement affect the kids? How does it affect the husband and wife?" (The latter overlaps with "What's wrong with Quiverfull/patriarchy?", I think.) I think the effect on the kids is important to note, and something that people may not always think of--but it's obviously important.
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Post by cereselle on Jul 14, 2009 12:59:26 GMT -5
I guess I'm not able to start a thread on my own. I'd like to put together a guide for a woman who wants to leave her husband, but doesn't know where to start. What if she has no money for a divorce lawyer? How can she get custody of the kids? What's alimony? How can she prove child abuse? Are they eligible for welfare, Medicaid, S-CHIP? I'm a professional legal researcher, so I can take a good crack at this. But I would love to hear any other questions QF women might have.
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lectio
Full Member
growing...
Posts: 128
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Post by lectio on Jul 15, 2009 13:43:03 GMT -5
cereselle, That would be SO awesome. It's so hard to think about it at all, when you have a ton of kids and have been out of the workforce for a long time, etc. The whole thing is very overwhelming, and yet...well...very needful.
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Post by cereselle on Jul 16, 2009 15:13:52 GMT -5
Thanks, lectio. I get patrons coming in all the time, knowing they need something from the law, but not knowing what they need or how to get it. Because I'm not a member of the state's bar, I can't give them legal advice, but I do my best to guide them to what they might need. I can only imagine what it must be like for women who are socialized to be afraid of "the world." Vyckie, could you start a thread for this topic? Maybe title it "How do I leave my QF life?" I'm beginning to outline the sections (divorce, child support, finding a job), and I don't want to clog up this thread. Thank you!
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chloe
New Member
Posts: 37
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Post by chloe on Aug 14, 2009 0:43:34 GMT -5
Where is "convicted" defined? Because that one has been confusing me. Similarly, QF folk keep saying that they "purposed" to do things? What does that mean? Decided? Planned? Dedicated themselves to?
Oh, and why does one little Duggar girl (Joy-Anna?) say that women who wear immodest clothing are "defrauding" men? How do I commit fraud by simply wearing a tank top?
We definitely need some kind of glossary.
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Post by rosa on Aug 17, 2009 9:15:41 GMT -5
How do these beliefs get bundled together? I see this in my own family members, but Molly's commenters are reminding me of it (also we're headed to Nebraska this week so I'm thinking about that part of my family a lot right now). I'm not asking why the particular beliefs, but how do they relate, so that people seem to clump them together as being all part of the same thing? There seem to be a lot of touchpoints for belonging to this subculture:
* pro-marriage * anti gay marriage * pro abstinence outside of marriage * pro sex within marriage * anti birth control * anti abortion * pro physical discipline * pro death penalty * anti divorce (but pro remarriage after divorce) * pro modest clothing (however it's defined) * pro private school, more pro homeschooling * anti teaching evolutionary theory * anti Muslim, esp. hijab/niqab wearing women * anti immigration * pro male head of household * anti government social programs * anti tax * pro gun * anti environmental protection * pro war * pro military service
The contrast I see is that people I know who are devout Christians but aren't part of this subculture have a lot more mixed beliefs - for instance, I have an uncle who is a devout Presbyterian who is anti-abortion, anti-capital punishment, anti-divorce, pro-birth control, pro-gun, a veteran, and anti-war. Is the grouping of touchstone beliefs to do with how small the churches are (to the point where they have their own hair/dress styles, that differ church by church but are similar across the community anyway)? Does it have to do with the media figures who have those politics and also happen to be Evangelical christians? Especially because some of the women here have moved around inside the movement, or gone into it and then left...how does it go together? Or am I just wrong in seeing these similarities? I have known liberal Evangelicals (we have an evangelical church in our neighborhood that is welcoming to gay people). It's just striking to me to see how often the political, scientific, and religious beliefs seem to go together.
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Post by tapati on Aug 17, 2009 16:36:50 GMT -5
I find I get lost in all the "names" of big shots in the various branches of the QF-leaning groups. Perhaps we need a Who's Who. Not just who they are, but what they are famous for, what their take on QF issues is, etc. Also I keep hearing about these various homeschooling text books that seem to lead one into this mindset--what are they and who wrote them and why? Are there non-QF alternatives? What would you say to homeschooling parents who want to AVOID these influences?
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athenac
New Member
I'll be a post-feminist in the post-patriarchy
Posts: 39
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Post by athenac on Aug 22, 2009 14:43:27 GMT -5
How are the families who met and got married through courtship doing? (One of the bizarre "contradictions" of courtship is the fact that if mom and dad, who have such a great marriage, met through dating, why is dating not good enough for the kids? Obviously mom and dad "tried out" a few people before they met each other. Are they saying that they would have been better off marrying the first person to come along?) What do parents look for in mates for their children? How does a mom even try to homeschool kids on topics like math or chemistry that she herself may know nothing about? What are the strengths and weaknesses of homeschooling in a QF household? How do most families manage to feed all those mouths? How many kids raised in QF leave the movement once they're adults? How many of the kids go to college? How much social activity do most of the kids have? Does the mom have friends, or is she in the house all day? What is the typical role of grandparents, aunts, uncles, and so forth? Is the Duggar-style "dorm" a typical sleeping arrangement, or notsomuch? Why is this? How does the family decide to start a home church? How do some of the more odd child-training methods work? How prevalent is physical abuse? How do mom and dad ever get any time to themselves? What is the obsession with debt-free living? Has the movement radically changed with the internet? What is the overall relationship between QF families and technology? How much do you think women are pushed by outside expectations and how much are they pushed by their own internal expectations? What happens to a young person's sense of self and their place in the world when they leave their parents' home? I'm sure I'll have more questions later.
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Post by tapati on Aug 22, 2009 21:26:39 GMT -5
Re: How does a mom even try to homeschool kids on topics like math or chemistry that she herself may know nothing about? What are the strengths and weaknesses of homeschooling in a QF household?
Yeah, in light of the fact that higher education is seen as unnecessary for QF girls, how are they supposed to grow up and provide education in high school level math and science? Would a teaching curriculum at a college be acceptable for women who are supposed to be their children's teacher? Would you (Vyckie) have felt good about going to Bible college if you'd joined the QF mindset sooner? Or are even Bible colleges suspect because they may differ in doctrinal ways?
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Post by anatheist on Aug 23, 2009 13:47:32 GMT -5
I'd like to see something about how the children of Quiverful/fundamentalism can deal with their past lifestyle AFTER leaving the movement.
Should they try to rebuild relationships with their families (parents and siblings)? How do they set boundaries?
How should they cope with the concept of what I would call "well-intentioned abuse"? By that term, I mean that the parents truly loved and wanted the best for their child, but their ideas about obedience to god nevertheless damaged the child emotionally and psychologically.
How do they deal with their family's condemnations/concerns that by leaving the lifestyle, they are disobedient to god and will be subject to god's punishment or hell? If no longer religious, where can they find ongoing non-religious support?
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autumn
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by autumn on Oct 5, 2009 10:55:54 GMT -5
How about a discussion of what mainline denominations someone leaving a Q/P life might find comforting. I know not everyone from a very strict church would feel at home in a UU congregation. I also know that someone who attended church for years might feel lost without some form of communal worship. They might also fear leaving the frying pan for the fire!
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Post by km on Oct 13, 2009 15:46:10 GMT -5
I've just glanced over this thread, but I really think Tapati's suggestion of a kind of who's who of big names in the Christian Right homeschooling movement would be helpful, esp. wrt names that aren't well-known in US pop culture. Everyone knows who Dobson is, but not so with Gothard or Vision Forum or Denny Kennaston, for instance.
I'd also like to see something about the head-covering culture within the movement addressed. How did head-covering and plainclothes (Amish and Old Order Mennonite style dress) become such important markers of one's involvement in the movement in some non-Mennonite communities?
Why can't some of the women cut their hair at all?
What is a double covering?
Why are the young children--and especially the girls--so preoccupied with marriage?
What are some of the cult-like mechanisms that are used to control some members of this movment?
What is the vaccination controversy within Quiverfull about, and why do so many QF kids remain unvaccinated?
I also think a resource page for women trying to get out of this is important. As well as some of the potential questions:
How can a woman who has never worked outside the home find ways to support her family in a divorce situation?
What are legal and financial support services are available for women leaving this lifestyle?
How can I get foodstamps, housing assistance, Medicaid, and other social services provided for my family?
My children are behind grade level in school. How can I prepare them to enter the public school system?
After so many years of micromanaging my children's lives, how can I give them their lives back?
My children are still entrenched in the Quiverfull mindset. How can I help ease their journey into a less-sheltered lifestyle?
I'm interested in dating again. How can I meet people nowadays?
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Post by km on Oct 13, 2009 15:53:37 GMT -5
How might I go about telling potential romantic interests about my multiple children?
Where can I find reasonable guidelines for raising children and setting appropriate boundaries with them? So, we gave up courtship, and I no longer pre-view all of their books and movies, but what about curfews? Dating?
I have become disillusioned with the efficacy of abstinence only education. How can I responsibly teach my children about sex and sexuality? What are some good resources that I can use to prepare my teenagers for safe sex?
We got into a lot of dietary restrictions with QF (back to the land, homegrown, organic, etc.), but I am unable to keep up that lifestyle as a single parent. What are some basic guidelines for keeping my children healthy? How can I afford fresh fruits and vegetables on my smaller income?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:14:46 GMT -5
What is the relationship between QF teachings and Christian Dominionism?
Who is RJ Rushdoony? Frances Schaeffer? What influences did they have on the contemporary homeschooling movement?
What are relations between QF teachings and conservative Roman Catholicism?
What is Patrick Henry University? Is it accredited? What is their goal?
What is ATIA? A Beka? BJU Press? Christian Light Publications?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:17:22 GMT -5
Who was Matthew Murray, and how was he affected by the homeschooling movement (and specifically by the Bill Gothard cult)?
This site is devoted largely to the negative affects of the QF lifestyle on women. What about the negative ways in which it affects certain men?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:24:27 GMT -5
I'm a secular individual. Is there any reason why I should be informed about the excesses of this movement? I mean, it's a small fringe movement without any real social or political power...right??
What is stealth dominonism, and how does it affect American political discourse? (Talk about Glenn Beck, for instance.)
Who is Erik Prince (founder of Blackwater Industries, now called Xe), and what are his ties in Christian Dominionism and the homeschooling movement?
Which members of the Bush administration had explicit ties the Dominionist movement? (John Ashcroft, etc.)
What kind of political power does the Dominionist movement actually wield? (Cite Michelle Goldberg's Kingdom Coming, Chris Hedges' Rise of Christian Fascism)
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:31:04 GMT -5
RJ Rushdoony--the founder of contemporary Christian Dominionism and of the homeschooling movement--promoted the idea of a theocratic Christian state with the power to execute both "homosexuals" and "unchaste women." He was also an extremist anti-Semite. How do most QF/Dominionist families feel about their intellectual heritage and about the teachings of people like Rushdoony?
A number of people within the Christian Right in the United States seem to have a kind of persecution complex in spite of the fact that their religion is dominant in this country. What is that about? Why is it so often the case that--when someone challenges the belief system of members of the Christian Right--Christian fundamentalists claim that they are being "persecuted"? How can a dominant religion in a country that upholds a separation between church and state be oppressed?
Why are so many of the Christian Right's pro-lifers in support of the death penalty? If they are for life, after all, shouldn't they be for measures like government-subsidized healthcare and basic food provisions?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:36:52 GMT -5
Why is it so often the case that women are the ones who pressure their husbands and families to adopt the QF lifestyle? What's in it for women?
What are some of the cultic practices of the more extremist homeschooling groups? (provide examples from Gothard, Charity Ministries, etc.)
What is Christian Domestic Discipline? Isn't it just a fundamentalist Christian rationalization for engaging in sexual kink?
What kinds of child abuse are upheld by the teachings within QF? (The Pearls, Gothard, etc.) What is the deal with putting kids in dark closets? Using hot gun glue sticks to punish children? The use of hardware to beat children? Leaving infants to cry to themselves indefinitely? Has law enforcement been very attentive to these abuses?
Why do women leaving the lifestyle--and their husbands--face custodial pressure not to renounce religion? Don't custody proceedings usually skew toward the custodial desires of the mother?
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 9:47:28 GMT -5
There are well-documented links between the QF movement and some strands of white supremacist Christian nationalism. And by any account, the vast majority of people who participate in the movement are white. Couldn't it be argued that QF is in many ways a white supremacist movement committed to expanding the US's *white population*? How would most QF families react to this charge?
What are the ties between Mike Huckabee and the Radical Christian Right? (involvement with Gothard, etc.) How did Huckabee implement a program designed by one of America's leading QF apologists in Arkansas's public schools and prisons? What are some catch phrases in QF/Dominionism circles that I could keep in mind when trying to identify stealth dominionism? I don't want my kids exposed to Gothard's teachings at the local public school.
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Post by km on Oct 15, 2009 10:00:25 GMT -5
What is all that business about the Joshua Generation, and why does it deploy such militaristic language?
Is the kind of pentecostal extremism depicted in the film "Jesus Camp" common within QF circles?
What is the Homeschool Legal Defense Association? Why does it get involved with right wing political causes (such as the anti-abortion movement) that seemingly have nothing to do with homeschooling or its legal defense?
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