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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 20, 2009 16:52:31 GMT -5
Okay ~ the subject lines on this forum do not allow for lengthy titles ~ so, I couldn't put the entire question for this FAQ in the subject line: What practical help do you offer for women who are seeking to leave the Quiverfull lifestyle? When I first started No Longer Quivering, I really didn't think there were very many QF women interested in leaving the lifestyle ~ there's really such strong incentives to continue until "death do you part" ~ whether that be at your own hand, the hand of your abusive spouse, or (which may be worse for the prolonged suffering involved) due to natural causes after a long, mostly miserable life. So, I have been really surprised to receive letter after letter in my inbox from women (who won't post on the forums ~ for obvious reasons) who desperately want to leave ~ but they are in fear of financial difficulties, coping with single-motherhood, custody issues, etc. Since I believe this is one of the foremost reasons why NLQ exists ~ I'd like to make providing practical help for these women a priority ~ which is why I'm starting with this particular FAQ. I've been in contact with "Dogemperor" from Dark Christianity @ Livejournal: http://dark_christian.livejournal.com ~ who sent quite an extensive list of contacts which could be very helpful in gaining custody of children after leaving coercive "bible-based" groups. Dogemperor has agreed to write a guest post for NLQ including this information ~ so, we can look forward to having that resource available. I'm hoping someone here will volunteer to organize and edit the many helpful suggestions in this thread about the financial reality of leaving when a mother has many young children to care and provide for. I'd also be extremely grateful to hear from those former QF ladies who left the lifestyle, but have not left their husbands. (Phoenix? who else?) I know that many QF women have no interest in breaking up their families ~ so, let's offer some useful suggestions for how it's worked for those who've BTDT ~ without getting a divorce. I know that a lot of the issues for QF women leaving the lifestyle are going to be similar to the issues faced by any woman leaving an abusive relationship and/or a coercive religious group. Who here would be willing to search out some helpful internet websites to which we could refer these women? The more practical the advice and resources offered, the better. Any other suggestions? Let's work together to come up with some answers for women who want to get out.
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Post by jemand on May 20, 2009 17:10:39 GMT -5
I've started asking about the atheist web presence if there are any sources to help undo the anti-atheist bias of many child custody cases... as there may be a good many women leaving QF who will be considered "less religious" than their husbands and thus possibly needing legal help. I don't have any suggestions other than that, I'll post whatever I can find. I think there needs to be a national organization to help people leaving fundamentalist situations.
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Post by grandmalou on May 20, 2009 19:49:29 GMT -5
Vyckie; I forwarded this whole page to my cousin Regina, a retired social worker from Michigan. She has been kind of a behind-the -scenes advisor since the beginning of the escape. This project of practical help is truly a wonderful idea, and I just know it is going to be real help for a lot of women! Love, Mom (AKA grandmalou)
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Post by kisekileia on May 21, 2009 1:11:45 GMT -5
Oh, AWESOME! I'm glad you and dogemperor connected up! It's wonderful to see people getting organized to help others coming out of religious abuse.
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Post by sargassosea on May 21, 2009 4:52:25 GMT -5
I would be happy to organize and edit that thread (that's one of those strengths I was talking about ) and I also think that some of the suggestions in Too Close To Patriarchy? might be beneficial as well. IE - Maybe you have an old friend who has always kept in touch? They may have been waiting for you to reach out to them. I am going to wait for an Official Vyckie OK before I get to going because if another lady is already at work on it then I could be free for some other duty, you see. *edit to add - OK, I am actually working on it anyway! Couldn't help myself
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Post by tapati on May 21, 2009 10:38:05 GMT -5
I've reached out to a friend who knows about resources for battered women, for the cases where that's a factor. I keep thinking that there are already some things happening with regard to the fundie offshoot Mormon groups, services for the "lost boys" and the wives who want to leave. It would be great to combine or coordinate services. In my dreams I picture a network of helpers passing women along to halfway houses in each section of the country, a sort of larger shelter system able to accommodate the children. Some volunteer to simply house them for a night while they travel to these shelters and help them and their children get to the next leg of their journey. I think it would be difficult to fund (and possibly not necessary) a network of as many shelters as domestic violence shelters in general because of the expense of the children, but 6-10 across the country ought to be do-able. I mean, how many women are emailing, Vyckie? The QF movement doesn't have huge numbers to begin with. We need lawyers that specialize in this, of course. I hope that's what will come out of Dogemperor's contacts. No one wants to leave children behind. (Though that often happens when women leave FLDS--Carolyn Jessop was the first to get all of her children out with her. Unfortunately, one chose to go back.) For a couple of years there is "welfare" available and help with job training or starting a new business, via the government. This comes with foodstamps and medical care. The lawyers mentioned above should work on good child support as well. Of course states go after it anyway, to defray their welfare disbursement costs. I can imagine it's daunting to contemplate leaving and caring for many children (I was scared I couldn't support 2) but it is possible! This is exciting!
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Post by tapati on May 21, 2009 11:31:59 GMT -5
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 22, 2009 8:44:36 GMT -5
I've started asking about the atheist web presence if there are any sources to help undo the anti-atheist bias of many child custody cases... as there may be a good many women leaving QF who will be considered "less religious" than their husbands and thus possibly needing legal help. I don't have any suggestions other than that, I'll post whatever I can find. I think there needs to be a national organization to help people leaving fundamentalist situations. Jemand ~ thanks so much I'm looking forward to getting a guest post up from dogemporer from Dark Christian ~ there'll be some good info. ~ not necessarily from atheists, but from those who have left coercive religious groups. austinavery had some helpful suggestions for me when I was going through my custody battle. I'm pretty sure that I can dig that out of my old email account ~ if so, austinavery, do I have your okay to post it? If I recall, the basic message was to stick with the facts as they relate to being the primary caregiver to the children ~ who has been responsible for the children's everyday care needs ~ meals, laundry, medical and dental care, etc? Anyway ~ jemand, let us know what you come up with ~ and would you be willing to edit this portion (legal concerns) of the FAQ? Thanks again.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 22, 2009 8:46:09 GMT -5
Vyckie; I forwarded this whole page to my cousin Regina, a retired social worker from Michigan. She has been kind of a behind-the -scenes advisor since the beginning of the escape. This project of practical help is truly a wonderful idea, and I just know it is going to be real help for a lot of women! Love, Mom (AKA grandmalou) Awesome, Mom ~ good idea to think of Regina. Do you have her old emails from the time of my custody hearing? Those'd be helpful.
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Post by grandmalou on May 22, 2009 9:34:06 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure I do, and will forward them to you. Love ya! Mom
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Post by castor on May 22, 2009 10:15:13 GMT -5
I don't have any suggestions. But I just wanted to say I'm willing to help. So if someone else has an idea and needs help executing it...
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 22, 2009 10:20:38 GMT -5
I would be happy to organize and edit that thread (that's one of those strengths I was talking about ) and I also think that some of the suggestions in Too Close To Patriarchy? might be beneficial as well. IE - Maybe you have an old friend who has always kept in touch? They may have been waiting for you to reach out to them. I am going to wait for an Official Vyckie OK before I get to going because if another lady is already at work on it then I could be free for some other duty, you see. *edit to add - OK, I am actually working on it anyway! Couldn't help myself Sea ~ thanks, thanks, thanks! And especially, thanks for going ahead without waiting to hear from me. I had a super busy day yesterday and was only able to check in on the forums occasionally ~ and by the time the day was over, I was just too tired to post any responses. I did skim through the forums and then take a few minutes to call my "Mimi" a.k.a. "GrandmaLou" and suggest that she get away from the computer and take a chill pill (maybe some of those B vitamins which really do help her with stress ~ LOL) The issues we're covering here at NLQ definitely can be overwhelming at times ~ so taking a break from it all really gets to be a necessity, huh? I know it helps me ~ and now that I've had a good night's sleep ~ I'm feeling in the mood to get some writing done. Hooray.
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Post by AustinAvery on May 22, 2009 10:40:25 GMT -5
Vicky,
Please feel free to post my past suggestions--with the caveat that I practice in only one state and can't vouch for the laws of other states.
Anything I can do to help someone get out of that movement, no matter how small, I'd be happy to do.
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Post by jemand on May 22, 2009 10:40:40 GMT -5
Well, my question was posted on a fairly well known atheist blog, at friendlyatheist.com/2009/05/21/how-can-this-ex-quiverfull-woman-maintain-custody-of-her-kids/The blogger asked his readers for suggestions.... and one lead right back to no longer quivering! It appears that what Vykie and Laura are doing is very new, and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an already established group. Suggestions ranged from getting a good child custody lawyer and trying to keep religion not discussed, to pointing out that she has been the main care taker so far because courts often do not like to change the children's situation too much, to waiting before filing for divorce for several months of separation so things that previously didn't even register would be recognized as abusive-- that actually sounded pretty plausible. I REALLY don't know very much about the legal side of divorce/child custody, etc. Googling can help but I'm certainly far from an expert.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 22, 2009 10:53:27 GMT -5
Wow ~ Suggestions ranged ... to waiting before filing for divorce for several months of separation so things that previously didn't even register would be recognized as abusive-- that actually sounded pretty plausible. This is actually a very good point. I've mentioned elsewhere that when I first filed for a protection order ~ even after Angel had filed a statement with the sheriff alleging sexual abuse ~ I could not think of anything "abusive" to include in my statement for the judge. It took some time ~ and when I finally was able to identify and articulate the abuse ~ wow ~ what an eye-opener. This could really explain a lot of what's going on when QF/P women are insisting that their particular Patriarch is not abusive in any way. I know it explains why Angel felt so desperate that she tried to kill herself ~ she KNEW something was wrong ~ but *could not* explain to anyone what the problem was. The best she could come up with was, "My dad is difficult" ~ to which the adults would roll their eyes and exclaim ~ well, of course, all dads can be difficult....
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 22, 2009 11:06:13 GMT -5
In my dreams I picture a network of helpers passing women along to halfway houses in each section of the country, a sort of larger shelter system able to accommodate the children. Some volunteer to simply house them for a night while they travel to these shelters and help them and their children get to the next leg of their journey. I think it would be difficult to fund (and possibly not necessary) a network of as many shelters as domestic violence shelters in general because of the expense of the children, but 6-10 across the country ought to be do-able. Tapati ~ what a lot of ambition you have here. I love it! I mean, how many women are emailing, Vyckie? The QF movement doesn't have huge numbers to begin with. Surprisingly, I've been getting one or two per week ~ and given that the QF movement really doesn't have huge numbers, that's pretty astounding. Especially considering that NLQ really has not been "introduced" to the QF community yet ~ I'm waiting to publicize there more once we have more practical help set up on the blog. That's a move that I'm trying to keep in mind as we go along with No Longer Quivering ~ when the time comes to make NLQ's presence known with Above Rubies and similar groups ~ I'm hoping that the overall "feel" of the blog is not immediately offensive to QFer's. With that in mind ~ I'd really like to hear from the former QF ladies here ~ would you please take a few minutes to try and put on your "QF" glasses and briefly check out the NLQ blog ~ take note of whatever's there that might be an instant turn-off and let me know? I don't want to be deceptive in the message we're hoping to convey ~ but neither do I want to be outright offensive right from the get-go. This is exciting! Yes it is. Thanks for being a part of it.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 22, 2009 11:10:18 GMT -5
I don't have any suggestions. But I just wanted to say I'm willing to help. So if someone else has an idea and needs help executing it... Castor ~ thanks so much for this offer to help. I'm waiting right now on the NLQ guest post from dogemperor ~ and a few other specifics and then I'll know more what practical things need to be done. I'll let you know, okay? Your willingness to help with this is much appreciated.
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Post by rosa on May 22, 2009 14:26:24 GMT -5
You might have to segregate some of the forum discussions, then. I'm a feminist and a heathen and some of the posters here get *my* hackles up.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 22, 2009 15:31:21 GMT -5
You might have to segregate some of the forum discussions, then. I'm a feminist and a heathen and some of the posters here get *my* hackles up. Rosa ~ I'm not sure who/what you are responding to here. Please clarify. Thanks.
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Post by rosa on May 22, 2009 15:40:53 GMT -5
The tone of some of the bible discussions & some of the patriarchy discussions is pretty harsh - in the context of the board it works, because the same posters are supportive & warm on other threads - but even some of the posts I agree with, the tone is off-putting.
I can't imagine a person who didn't agree that patriarchy was bad sticking around thought the modest clothing thread, for example. And I know i say things here that I would *never* say to some of the believers in my life, for fear of driving them away. I wonder if there would be a way to mark threads as debates and others as more collaborative, or something - safe spaces & intellectual challenge ones, something like that. We seem to veer back & forth.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 22, 2009 15:51:41 GMT -5
The tone of some of the bible discussions & some of the patriarchy discussions is pretty harsh - in the context of the board it works, because the same posters are supportive & warm on other threads - but even some of the posts I agree with, the tone is off-putting. I can't imagine a person who didn't agree that patriarchy was bad sticking around thought the modest clothing thread, for example. And I know i say things here that I would *never* say to some of the believers in my life, for fear of driving them away. I wonder if there would be a way to mark threads as debates and others as more collaborative, or something - safe spaces & intellectual challenge ones, something like that. We seem to veer back & forth. Okay ~ now I get what you're referring to, Rosa. Thanks. I don't know if others will agree, but I don't really have the same concern about not being immediately offensive to QFer's here on the forums as I do with regard to the No Longer Quivering blog. It's my feeling that, since the blog is what most readers encounter first that's where I want to be especially sensitive to the overall tone. When it comes to the forums ~ I'm kind of thinking that those who make it over here and start digging through the discussions already have encountered the main NLQ message and have apparently not been turned off ~ otherwise, they wouldn't still be reading. Also ~ it's the nature of forums to be more controversial ~ though even with the more "contentious" threads (such as the one on modest dress), I don't think that the discussion has turned ugly or blatantly disrespectful ~ seems like we do pretty good here considering the wide range of perspectives represented. Let me know if you think I'm mistaken about this, okay? I'm pretty much over myself sufficiently to not be terribly in love with my own opinions. LOL
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Post by arietty on May 22, 2009 18:58:56 GMT -5
Vyckie I think you are doing the right thing making the blog a gentler place and these forums open for any kind of discussions. One of the main influences that led me out of the fundamentalist mindset was the internet. I was just in awe at all the FREE DISCUSSION people had. It was honestly like a swimming pool of fresh water had been thrown over me. WOW.. people had differing opinions, some quite in-your-face, and they said them and other people replied to them and actual interesting discussion ensued!! I was so used to everything having to be passed through the biblical-godly-don't-be-a-jezebel sieve and having to turn into namby pampy gruel before it was considered palatable.
I also started tentatively posting in a few forums online and to my amazement I found I had a voice, people LOL'd at my humour, they engaged me in discussions, they said amazing things like "that was really interesting Arietty, I hadn't looked at it that way before". I can't tell you what a revelation that was. No one had been interested in me or given me positive feedback in so long. With each step into internet-land I became more myself, remembered that I used to be good writer, remembered that I used to love discussions.. in the old days.. before there was an abusive overlord who would literally stand between me and a person I was talking to so the conversation would focus on him.
So. Keep the forums free but civil. This is the real world where opinions are valued without having to be agreed with.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 22, 2009 19:43:47 GMT -5
Arietty ~ I know exactly what you are talking about. I had the same experience when I started writing to my uncle Ron. I had been so entrenched in the patriarchal system in which women's conversation was limited to homeschooling and recipe exchanges ~ and the only man I was allowed to talk to was Warren. So ~ when I had a chance to express and opinion ~ I really went hog-wild. Between the two of us, we wrote almost a 1,000 emails in less than a year's time. Wow ~ what a thrill ~ and once I experienced it, there's no way I was going back to my "proper place."
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Post by rosa on May 22, 2009 20:41:44 GMT -5
That's really good, Arietty. I hear from friends that I try to get to read feminist sites (only very polite, moderated ones) that it's too harsh and argumentative and they can't read it...but maybe it's just that they're not looking to have their opinions challenged.
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Post by xara on May 23, 2009 9:02:42 GMT -5
I've started asking about the atheist web presence if there are any sources to help undo the anti-atheist bias of many child custody cases... as there may be a good many women leaving QF who will be considered "less religious" than their husbands and thus possibly needing legal help. I don't have any suggestions other than that, I'll post whatever I can find. I think there needs to be a national organization to help people leaving fundamentalist situations. You might try the Freedom From Religion Foundation. I know they are very involved in a number of separation of church and state legal cases.
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