jlp
Junior Member
Posts: 54
|
Post by jlp on Aug 12, 2009 14:36:55 GMT -5
Even starting from the viewpoint that the Scriptures are God-breathed (which I believe), the idea that the cultures into which the Scriptures were breathed were "biblical" in the sense of "God-approved" is an assumption that I believe QF members should be asked to question.
I never even thought of that, KR Wordgazer. I am glad you brought it up. We are still discussing Ezer kenegdo at Equality Central. Once that is over, I will start a post on this issue and link put a link here.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Aug 13, 2009 21:23:33 GMT -5
Thanks, JLP. I really appreciate your taking the reins on this FAQ-- I will help out as I can.
|
|
|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 16, 2009 9:32:32 GMT -5
From Debi Pearl's book "Created To Be His Help Meet" ~ God's Gift to Man God gave Adam the most precious gift a man will ever receive ~ a woman. I know it to be so because my husband tells me quite often. According to him, I am indispensable. He says I am his best buddy, his preferred helper. "and the LORD God said, it is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him" (Gen. 2:18). And then god "brought her unto the man" (Gen. 2:22). Later, he tells us, "Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD" (Proverbs 18:22). Do you see? God says it is not good for a man to be alone, and the answer to his need is a wife ~ called "a good thing." Furthermore, a man obtains God's favor by getting a wife. If you are a wife, you were created to fill a need, and in that capacity you are a "good thing," a helper suited to the needs of a man. This is how God created you and it is your purpose for existing. You are, by nature, equipped in every way to be your man's helper. You are inferior to none as long as you function within your created nature, for no man can do your job, and no man is complete without his wife. You were created to make him complete, not to seek personal fulfillment parallel to him. A woman trying to function like a man is as ridiculous as a man trying ot be like a woman. A unisex society is a senseless society ~ a society dangerously out of order. .... When you are a help meet to your husband, you are a helper to Christ for God commissioned man for a purpose and gave him a woman to assist in fulfilling that divine calling. When you honor your husband, you honor God. When you obey your husband, you obey God. the degree to which you reverence your husband is the degree to which you reverence your Creator. As we serve our husbands, we serve God. But in the same way, when you dishonor your husband, you dishonor God. .... "For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man" (1 Cor. 11:8-9). Four thousand years after creation, Paul, Timothy, and Peter wrote to us, telling us God's original plan was still the same a sit was in the beginning when Adam and Eve were first learning how to be husband and wife. Now, two thousand years since Paul's teaching, amazing as it seems, God still has not changed his mind. Regardless of who you are or what your talents may be, God's will is that you be a suitable helper to your husband. Paul says, "But she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband" (1 Cor. 7:34). I know that as you read this it almost sounds like blasphemy, because it is so weird to think that your husband deserves you as his help meet. But who said anything about what he deserves? You can only realize your womanhood when you are functioning according to your created nature. To covet his role of leadership is to covet something that will not make God, you , or him happy. It is not a question of whether or not you can do a better job than he; it is a matter of what you were "designed" to do. If you successfully do the job of leading the family, you will not find satisfaction in it. It is far better that the job be done poorly by your husband than to to be done well by you. Your excellence as a help meet to him may very well be God's plan for improving his leadership role in the family. Your female nature cannot be retrofitted to the male role without permanent damage to the original design. .... Men are created to be helpers of God. Jesus willingly became a helper to the Father. The Holy Spirit became a helper to the Son. ... There is no loss of dignity in subordination when it serves a higher purpose. god made you to be a help meet to your husband so you can bolster him, making him more productive and efficient at whatever he chooses to do. You are not on the bard of directors with an equal vote. You have no authority to set the agenda. But if he can trust you, he will make you his closest adviser, his confidante, his press secretary, his head of state, his vice-president, his ambassador, his public relations expert, maybe even his speech writer ~ all at his discretion. A perfect help meet is one who does not require a list of chores, as would a child. Her readiness to please motivates her to look around and see the things she knows her husband would like to see done. She would not use lame excuses to avoid these jobs. A man would know he had a fine woman if she were this kind of helper. Such a husband would receive honor from other men as they admire and praise his handy wife. "a virtuous woman is a crown to her husband" (Proverbs 12:4). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is the fundamentalist idea of "help meet" which needs to be addressed in this FAQ.
|
|
Hillary
Full Member
"Quivering Daughters ~ Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy" Now Available!
Posts: 129
|
Post by Hillary on Aug 16, 2009 10:49:40 GMT -5
I have been working and writing A LOT and have not been able to catch up much lately--I intend to rectify this--so I may be re-iterating things spoken of elsewhere.
Keep in mind that this audience is so given to their lifestyle that even the term "abuse" is considered subjective. Some women "can handle" more than others. And they believe the doctrine of submission so much that I have read some accounts where, for example, if the mother knew that her husband was molesting their child she would just pray that God would fix the situation, for going to the authorities means going out from under his head--something not blessed by God.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Aug 16, 2009 23:02:03 GMT -5
Vyckie, it would help me a lot to respond to the female-subordination views you posted for rebuttal, if I had some understanding of why the Q/F believer believes that only the King James version of the Bible can be used. Why do they object to going back to the meaning of words in the original Hebrew? And since they do so object, why does the author of the passage feel it's ok to change the word "help" to "helper"-- which is not the word that appears in the King James! The word is the same word, both in the KJV and in the Hebrew, as is used in "God is our refuge and strength, our very present help in trouble."
|
|
|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 22, 2009 12:01:44 GMT -5
jlp and KR ~ I wanted to add a note here to say that my latest post A Most Twisted Love is my response to the "help meet" question. I've been pondering the issue for a while now, and I agree with jlp that stories are going to be more effective in addressing this FAQ than word studies, etc. After doing a little exercise in my head in which I try to imagine what might have convinced me to think differently about my QF beliefs, I realize it's a waste of time to argue the meaning of "help meet" with quiver-minded women. Here are some points that I do believe might make an impression on women who are concerned with doing their absolute best for their husbands in a manner which would please the Lord: 1) Following the patriarchal "help meet" model as taught by Debi Pearl & Co. actually demeans and infantilizes (I just made that word up ~ LOL) the husbands ~ it creates a dependency which the men will eventually resent both because they have not actually wrestled with the hard things of life (having been sheltered from "upset" by their wives), thereby growing and building their self-confidence ~ and also because they understand the power which their wives hold over them. (Interesting that "submission" and "assisting" translates into major power for the women ~ that is not immediately obvious when the couple first takes up the practice of patriarchy.) 2) "Trusting" the Lord as she submits to her imperfect husband does violence to a woman's understanding of and relationship to God. This whole set-up (as I explained towards the end of my article) is serious manipulation ~ in fact, the woman is not giving up control at all ~ rather than attempting to control her husband ~ a woman has discovered the means by which she can control God ~ and HE will take care of the man in her life. 3) I think St. Bernard's four degrees of love is a well-thought out rebuttal to the martyr mentality ~ I believe it will resonate with QF women as it gives them permission to take care of themselves without feeling selfish. So ~ by emphasizing that this set-up is not good for the men ~ a QF woman will not have to fight her deep seated suspicion that she's only rejecting patriarchy for selfish reasons. By emphasizing the warped view of "a personal relationship with God" which headship/submission engenders ~ the woman has a high and noble motivation to reject the model. Now, the men might still need actual bible verses and word studies ~ which means that we can't leave that stuff out of this FAQ altogether. So ~ how about we rework this portion of the FAQ to talk about the unavoidable consequences of patriarchy (hurts men, belittles God) and then tack on a summary of the "ezer kenegdo" info. from the Equality Central thread? That's my recommendation ~ I'm certainly open to additions or corrections or whatever.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Aug 23, 2009 14:30:10 GMT -5
Vyckie-- I've made some more comments on the Equality Central for you review. I also wanted you to know that I'm gathering some resources for addressing the hermeneutics issue.
|
|
syfr
New Member
Posts: 30
|
Post by syfr on Aug 25, 2009 15:15:55 GMT -5
Vicki, "infantilize" is a word since 1931, per the Oxford English Dictionary!
|
|
ruby
New Member
Posts: 10
|
Post by ruby on Sept 8, 2009 22:12:51 GMT -5
Impressive progress so far!
A couple of years ago when I was miserable in my marriage, and convinced I was stuck, I began a specific search in the scriptures ~ I figured that if said scriptures told me I was obligated to stay in the marriage, then surely there must be something in there to tell me how.
A few verses resonated with me, but not in the way I expected.
The first was Micah 6:8 ~ "He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." It occurred to me that my husband did not seem too taken with what God considered good. He wasn't just with me, he certainly wasn't merciful toward me, and humility was not an attribute he valued.
Another was Hosea 6:6 ~ "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Again with the mercy! With all this talk of sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice, here again I was reading that God desired mercy, something I knew I craved.
The one that finally brought me to tears was Psa 22:24 ~ "For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help." Wow. And to think that all the times I finally started to cry out of frustration, and my husband called me "weak" or "over-dramatic" (as if some drama would have been okay?) or told me that my crying was "manipulative", God didn't share that sentiment.
And darn it, I was afflicted! And oppressed! I was living in such a way that I thought was pleasing to God, but it turns out mercy and justice and compassion ranked higher than mindless submission.
I realize these examples may not speak specifically to this FAQ, but I'm hoping that this might help with a little insight as to what got my wheels turning.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Sept 10, 2009 23:00:27 GMT -5
Those are really good points, Ruby!
|
|