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Post by hopewell on Oct 20, 2010 10:20:50 GMT -5
Chilling IS the word here. Naturally HE can watch tv, surf the Net, look at porn. He is God's greatest creation: A Man. I hope this asshole got prison time, but I bet not...........Glad you are away from him. I hope you got all your children too.
A friend once remarked--"why is it always the guy wearing a Promise Keepers shirt, with a fishy on his car who beats his wife?"
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Post by hopewell on Oct 7, 2010 11:32:09 GMT -5
Very compelling post.
Along with the rose-colored view of Victorian life that Patriarchy sells, there is the hidden stress of trying live up to mythical standards of gender-based rolls while earning a living and functioning in the world of today.
The stress of even one special needs child wrecks so many marriages. And, yes the burden of staying in a hated job--often the only way to provide the medical insurance necessary--is tremendous. But, as mother's of my Mom's generation [1950s] and my Grandmother's generation [1920's] found, it is brutally stressful to put everyone else first no matter what. That is, in essence, what spawned the women's liberation movement --especially in the late 60s/early 7. 0s.
I cannot imagine we'd find a woman, other than an extremely devout Catholic or Mormon, from any past generation who would buy the "God opens/shuts the womb" theory. Much of liberation literature hinges on the need of women to have a "self" and to care for that self and to have at least a degree of control over reproduction. Although we all often say we need a "wife" when life is out of control, not many men today really want to face being the sole support of their family and who, looking at today's economy, can blame them? And, in the face of such economic brutality, who sees it as good Christian Stewardship to birth baby after baby with no thought of how to feed it than "God will provide."
The Patriarchy/QF movements become a self-imposed prison sentences--as you beautifully illustrate. Even when you don't buy in 100% you can still get sucked in 100% or more. Damage is done. Like any "prison" escape is the only way out.
Keep writing--you tell a very, very compelling story!
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Post by hopewell on Oct 4, 2010 11:07:11 GMT -5
One of the best posts yet.
This says it all about Quiverfull: "Don’t think."
Amen.
Now, anyone else notice a bosch in the Duggar's industrial kitchen? I read somewhere that they at least "did" bake their own bread--not sure about current day. When I think back over Duggar episodes I've never seen bread bought at Aldis, but we only ever see them eat crap. The toast looks "brown" like possibly whole wheat bread--but is it commercial or homemade? And how did they escape the cloth diaper mania? And, at least since the tv cameras arrived, they have gone to doctors and dentists. And now, with Josie, they may even get flu shots. Seems like a few cracks in the facade here Jim-Bob!
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Post by hopewell on Sept 23, 2010 13:05:20 GMT -5
I had to remind myself to read "Denton" and not "Maxwell"
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Post by hopewell on Sept 14, 2010 10:14:37 GMT -5
Since that time, for obvious reasons, things have changed. But when I first married, I WAS HEADED DOWN THIS PATH (God worked a miracle at opening our eyes!!). What frusterated me more than anything was that there was this unspoken expectation that my mom, who had been a leader and purveyor of The Movement, would help me. Recognizing how hard it had been in the early years of The Movement, that now that her daughter lived in the same area, she would help teach, clean, and cook. She never even came over...I even begged and pleaded for her to come and help me and when she did, she acted as though it was a complete drugery. She was free from the standards that she shoved down my throat and lived and she wasn't about to be put through it again. The irony is that every Daughter of The Movement (many of whom are still very dear friends) have voiced the same thing to me. They got married, had babies, began to homeschool. Hoping mom would come and help. But she never came.
So we put our kids in public school because we knew that we weren't about to live the hell that our mom's had subjected us to.
So my point is just that in my experience, most grandma's don't want this for themselves anymore. They are tired and their thinking is that if I could do it on my own, then so can she.
So this whole Grandma Duggar thing?
Its not realistic.
It has long been speculated [TWOP somewhere in the early discussions] that Grandma wants MONEY. Her husband could earn it, but not keep it. It's my understanding that Grandma lives with them now. She may take "days off" and go to her daughter's house but I think she's mostly with the family. And, now that Michelle has to be a full-time Mom to Josie, someone has to ride herd on the choas of all those little boys while the girls help the "middle" kids with school and take care of the little girls. Grandma is also, IMHO, the "adult" required in the home when, say, Jeremiah is left as the oldest kid at home! Now about your Mom. Many grandmas are like that--"I survived it, you can too" or "I'm done." I think that's true across the spectrum of belief. Even with your help, and that of your siblings, I think it's safe to say ANY Mom of many is burnt out after the nest is empty! Glad that God worked a miracle and showed you another way to live-- hopefully your family is smaller! Thanks for your comments.
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Post by hopewell on Sept 13, 2010 9:27:42 GMT -5
Not really sure yet how to reply to some of this...........MY point was to compare the Duggars to the 49 operation character qualities taught by Bill Gothard's ATI. That's it, really.
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Post by hopewell on Sept 9, 2010 9:47:04 GMT -5
Like another recent NLQ post, "Leaving the Fold," this one struck home. We did homeschool for a year when my kids were in 3rd and 5th grade--as a single Mom it was a nightmare trying to work and do school. In the end I caved and sent them back to school. In spite of my fears and paranoia, they were both doing just fine academically when they entered school again--in fact my son picked up substantially in reading. HOWEVER, they were so lonely and starved for friendship--made worse by our living in a small rural neighborhood [no, not a homestead-just a small subdivision in the middle of nowhere.] Happily, I never pulled the plug on toys, tv, of what friends the neighborhood offered. We did Scouts and Soccer But it was lonely for them and I was overwhelmed. Fast forward 3 years to a new job, new state, bigger neighborhood. My daughter, my school lover teacher's dream child, asked to go back to homeschool. While our relationship did blossom and we came to understand each other much better it was the lack of friends and acceptance that made her decide to go back to school. As a single Mom I was NEVER, EVER accepted into a Christian homeschool group even though I WAS and AM a devout Christian and I had adopted my kids. Never good enough. Happily I grew up with Church-hating parents and didn't see the need to worry about this! God loved me.
POINT OF THIS RAMBLE: While kids DO [IMHO] spend too much time with same-age peers and it does handicap them in dealing with other age groups, it's crippling for them to be without friends, to not "fit in" to not understand life in terms of what their peers know [good and bad]. While I certainly met my share of homeschool kids who were very well adjusted, had tons of friends in any kind of school you want to pick, these were NEVER, "Christian Homeschoolers" [capital C capital H as in "The Movement"] I remember the robot children--the girls ALWAYS in some awful dress, towing a younger sibling by the hand, somehow they were all named Hannah, Lydia or Faith. The boys of "the movement' were always just awful--no manners, and all seemed to have ADHD although this was probably just the effect of getting OUT and being with PEOPLE!!! The Mommy Wars were so awful--the smug looks and the movement lingo. I remember at an American Heritage Girls ceremony the approving looks between the Mommys of 4 or 5 miserable homeschooled/cottage schooled girls who had memorized and were forced to recite a HUGE block of scripture--an entire book if I remember. The girls reciting were stressed to the max, black circles under their eyes like raccoons [or Duggar girls in the original tv specials].
Does homeschool work--YES when done WELL. Does homeschool damage--YES when done poorly. Can you control your kids 24/7/365 NO! Does public school work--YES when done well? Does public school damage--YES when done poorly. IS IT enough to just learn to read--NO not if no one ever discusses anything with you, or has you demonstrate what you learn or allows you to reach your own conclusions!!! Can a student recover academically--of course! Just like any person brave enough to enter an adult literacy program, GED program or even community college or open-admission University can recover. Can the scars of isolation be repaired? Not necessarily.
Sorry I'm in such a rambling frame of mind but this post moved me like a good therapy session would!!
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Post by hopewell on Sept 8, 2010 13:33:52 GMT -5
Fat moms and the mom with the hairy mole on her cheek doesn't get much. You got it! Ditto single Moms for the most part, although my Church family was a real life-saver during one spell of unemployment. There are the "right" families that everyone helps to the point they have freezers full of food and boxes of uneaten pizzas whenever someone has the sniffles. Then there are the quiet humble families that don't say a word and live on oatmeal and pancakes because they don't shout their needs loud enough to be heard. Then there's the ones who can't use birth control--more than 4 kids is often seen as a bit "much" even in fundamentalist Churches. After all, how will they pay for them all to go to the Church's school or will the "right" Moms have to let them in the super-select homeschool co-op in spite of their out-of-style clothing. Lots to rant about in Churches for sure, but also there are GOOD decent people who truly believe and truly help, too. That often gets lost in the snarking!
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Post by hopewell on Sept 8, 2010 13:22:10 GMT -5
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Post by hopewell on Sept 2, 2010 14:26:18 GMT -5
(That's something that always confused me about the Campbells.....they were instrumental in bringing the Newboys to the US, but with all their "against the world talk," it surprises me that they would even be fans of the Newboys.)
I don't think it's ever been said that the Campbells ARE fans of the Newsboys--just "owner" of the Newsboys!! It's exactly like the Duggars "watch VERY little tv"but have a reality show. It's called "income stream" in some circles I believe! lol
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Post by hopewell on Sept 2, 2010 11:05:50 GMT -5
From CINDY Hopewell,
Didn't I read a reference over on YUKU about that Bates fellow actually giving a lecture at an ATIA meeting on how to live on the cheap?
Essentially, people are supposed to donate everything for you to build a house, and if you just wait, someone will feel guilty and sorry for your kids and give you what you need, if I recall correctly. And much of the things they were given actually came from the Duggars, like their very large dinner table, and a dump truck or something? Yes--Gil Bates lectured one or more of the big ATI conferences on Supporting a large family on one income. I have mentioned several times the "hand-me-down" green table the Bates have from the Duggars [could there really have been 2 of those ugly suckers?] and the Bates have an identical FORD van to the one the Duggars had [but that truly could be coincidental--its a standard multi passenger van after all] Gil said a "group of businessmen" gave him a bucket truck for his business. I noted that Jim-Bob had bought one for the house construction with an eye to resale when done--I wasn't able to verify if it was the same truck and maybe ATI guys bought it from Jim-Bob for Gil. It's not begging to pray and let God provide thru friends or generous local merchants or companies that want national tv exposure. That's allowing folks to bless you. From what I've seen of the Bates, they'd have continued on in their tiny house and maybe encouraged early marriage among the older kids to free up space as needed!
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Post by hopewell on Sept 2, 2010 10:53:46 GMT -5
NO culture of their own generation. If you mean homeschoolers as extreme in isolating their kids as the Duggars [which is what I assume you mean] then yes, you are correct. The homeschoolers we know are into the same stuff as the public school kids. The ATI kids clearly have their own culture--check out the hilarious EX-ATI GUY blog [not updated in a long time, but still relevant]. The have the whole ATI culture and could make the same argument you make about the REST of the kids! lol.--Imagine NOT knowing the operational definitions of the 49 character qualities! Imagine thinking God will love you if you date--can you imagine [picture teenage eye roll here]. Imagine your parents caring so little they let you run wild. I say this to show that in "their world" the Duggars ARE culturally astute and even get to really push the envelope. In their world they don't need critical thinking skills--everything is decided for them! Excellent discussion!!
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Post by hopewell on Sept 1, 2010 17:15:25 GMT -5
Great comments--sorry I've been away. I will answer some tomorrow.
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Post by hopewell on Sept 1, 2010 16:48:29 GMT -5
Amen to what the others said. When are these girls free to go anywhere alone? My son is on house arrest and at least has freedom of thought if not action. I don't see that in the Duggar home. Free to be a wife and mother to a Daddy-approved man once Daddy's own kids are raised; free to be a midwife or piano teacher if Daddy and future husband agree. Free to be a Democrat? Not on your life! Free to be a Unitarian or Episcopalian? Over her own dead body would a Duggar girl be "free" to make such a choice. Are the allowed to rely on God to guide their judgment--NO the girls every waking moment [and probably the asleep ones] are accounted for and monitored. For goodness sakes, Jana couldn't even go on a BILL GOTHARD mission trip without her brother! And going on Journey to the Heart, a Gothard retreat, required the whole squad of 4 oldest girls + Anna's sister to be sure they didn't sin somehow.
Free, before marriage, to use their nearly non-existant "spare" time to study a Gothard-sponsored "college level" program in midwifery or something? Probably, as long as Jennifer gets potty trained and Jamesy-bug gets lassoed to the chair long enough to learn the letters "C and D" at least. Remember, MAMA must monitor Josie exclusively, leaving Grandma and the now FIVE oldest girls [poor Joy Anna must have "graduated" to being a "big" girl by getting her visit from Aunt Flo].
Now, are they seeing more of the "world" than they ever could have dreamed of before TLC came calling? ABSOLUTELY. Is this good? ABSOLUTELY. Are they free to find, get to know and decide to marry a guy? Not even if his name is Maxwell or Gates will they just get to "choose" him!
Come on Pond-Man get real!
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Post by hopewell on Aug 31, 2010 14:57:00 GMT -5
Emily considers cranking the wonder wash to be "good clean fun" [hahhah] for her poor children! I guess that's why she doesn't figure in cost. I'm afraid you may be in the minority of the general public in even knowing such a washer exists!!! You are right, though, a bigger version would be great for off-grid life.
Sadly "stampinmama," I'm sure the Duggar's lavish homes make some families miserable in their own reality in Quiverfull life. What about a family with all boys--the Mom would be worked to death!!
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Post by hopewell on Aug 30, 2010 9:53:24 GMT -5
Wow! Get away from this board for a weekend and I miss so much I don't know if I can catch up!! This may get long--I'll try to keep it focused:
1. [The easy one] The Duggars state in their book that they did not have air conditioning--I believe the "donation" was the duct work--not the expensive heat pump or ac units.
2. I am really excited to hear so much more about how non-celebrity families live. We all see that the Duggars are telegenic--but would they be in their umpteenth season on tv if the girls still wore panda jumpers and the boys still Brillcreamed their hair down and tucked in their plain matching polo shirts? No. But, in addition to accepting a more "worldly" standard of dress Jim-Bob also knows SALES. The old image wouldn't have sold for long! Plus, at the time of the first tv special there were only 3 teenagers. Today they have a few YOUNG ADULTS and plenty of teenagers. Every parent, if they want peace, learns to compromise a little!
3. Homeschool. I have homeschooled both of my kids at one time and now have one in public school and one in homeschool. For my son I came to the conclusion it was the only choice. Everything he did, in spite of the IEP, was "insubordination" and he ended up with no credits for the first years of high school. I really don't know how big families homeschool--but I honestly believe the Duggars took the sanest path available--the computer classes. MANY kids today are "homeschooling" but doing online Charter or regular Public programs. In many states this is FREE. Kids with behavior problems are often left with no choice. I did not choose this route for my son because he is my only student. I have examined the programs and even the Wal-Mart workbooks the Duggars use. Their kids are receiving a perfectly adequate education--and all have passed the state tests. People who have not grown up in rural or urban public schools, but in successful suburban schools, do not necessarily see the poor education so many kids gets. So, in that, the Duggars are fine. They actually do go out and see other families for broom ball, home Church etc. No, that is not freedom, but it's not captivity either.
4. WIC. I cringed and drove 40 miles to grocery shop while unemployed when my kids were little. It hurts to take this stuff--especially in a very conservative area. I applaud those QF Moms who ARE brave enough to use these. It isn't easy when the whole town is judging you! [Even if it's because you preached "debt-free" and God will provide"]
5. QF/Amway. The similarities are very striking. Those of you wanting to know more should read "Amyway: The Cult of Free Enterprise" it details the tactics used in the cult to keep people broke and blaming themselves. "Friendship Evangelism]--like "Ceila==the perfect QF mom in the NLQ story' is how Amyway lives. My own sil w/ PHD in PSYCHOLOGY got sucked into that mess!! At no time is any Amway person home with the family--they are "showing the plan" or paying big bucks to attend a motivational conference." I know there are families in my county [very rural, very, very poor] who live off deer season and cutting and selling firewood if they are honest--pot if they are not--most of the firewood/deer folks get home with more $ than any Amway/Quixtar person ever did! Jim-Bob Duggar is like the Dexter Yeager of ATI/IBLP. Most families lived like the Bates did the first time they were shown--tiny house, homemade clothes lots of beans to eat.
KEEP WRITING ladies--it's so interesting to hear how others are living!!!
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Post by hopewell on Aug 27, 2010 14:09:13 GMT -5
To follow up on Vyckie's request: Do you know of any such families who BLOG, have a web site, have been in a local newspaper or newscast [like the Bates have been] This would be very helpful. You can email me at hopewellmomschool@yahoo.com and I will take a look at anything to help in our research. Thanks!
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Post by hopewell on Aug 27, 2010 12:53:47 GMT -5
ALDI is the store the Duggars love. Personally I find Kroger's sale prices are better than ALDIs regular prices and the quality is much better. My kids won't touch the spaghetti sauce the Duggars love, nor the frozen burritos. I do buy alot of canned goods and some dairy there though when Kroger isn't on sale. The stores vary a little according to location in how much fresh produce and "luxury" items they carry--also in how much fresh meat [all recent improvements]. I find it amazing the Duggars don't buy beef on the hoof.........
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Post by hopewell on Aug 27, 2010 10:32:13 GMT -5
humbletigger: The Duggars have been very blessed/lucky with their incredible real estate deals--whether it was a good eye or dumb luck Jim-Bob made some excellent purchases. Not everyone has that "eye"--I certainly don't!!
I think DEBT is a norm for most American families--so that includes QF families--many of whom are definitely hiding a debt time-bomb.
Shelley C: I think the family you describe is way more typical than the Duggars--think of the Duggars first tv Specials. In one of them the line up of kids included one or two wearing rubber farm books as shoes! Families trying to live in deeply rural areas like mine, often to stay under CPS radar and to find affordable land, often do themselves in by having no ready market for their business. If they are so fanatical in sheltering, debt-free or [name your thing!] that they can't have internet access they then have absolutely no market and have to just do subsistence farming ala 3rd world. That is work yourself into the grave to grow, can or dry your veggies and grow, slaughter cure or freeze your own meet, raise your own eggs an milks. VERY hard work!!
Many families in extremely rural areas have no idea of the meth labs, pot growing operations, and oxy addicts, sex offenders and other "benefits" of rural life that often surround them, either!
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Post by hopewell on Aug 24, 2010 10:33:11 GMT -5
I"m glad you were able to find the truth--that God loves us as we are. I have my fingers crossed that dear Celia was left high and dry when hubby found a better model or that two of her kids were caught in a drug bust... bad of me, but! lol
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Post by hopewell on Aug 16, 2010 9:34:15 GMT -5
What a creep. I hope you've read about the FLDS--it will comfort you--especially ESCAPE by Carolyn Jessop. What a creep! I want to read more though.
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Post by hopewell on Aug 13, 2010 11:18:50 GMT -5
You poor kid! What a mess!
Just when I think I've mastered the list of Christian wack-a-doodles, a new name surfaces. I somehow have missed Branham. I'm off to pray for you and to find out more about the nutjob-dejour!
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Post by hopewell on Aug 12, 2010 11:45:57 GMT -5
I finally got to see this week's episode. I wonder how having only one child to focus on, plus peace and quiet, might affect Michelle? She talked about it being like having her first child. Maybe, just maybe it might give her a peak at what the many many kids between # 1 and # 19 have missed?
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Post by hopewell on Aug 12, 2010 9:23:18 GMT -5
What if He’s embarrassed by the poor witness to ”the World” which only sees irresponsible and narcissistic parents building their own little fiefdoms? What if God thinks Quiverfullers put too much emphasis on the “be fruitful and multiply” part of the Dominion Mandate and not enough on stewardship and “tending the garden”? What if God (gasp!) actually values women for more than just their ability to get pregnant and have babies? What if the Lord cares about little baby Josie ~ and wants her to have all the benefits of her mother’s loving, undivided attention? Let the Church say AMEN!!!!!!!!!!! GREAT POST that the TODAY SHOW should have you on to discuss! I would add, too, what if God is mad at the way they MISUSE their older daughters as unpaid servants slave laborers and MISTRUST their kids to the point that they can't even go out and serve Him on a Mission Trip alone [with a group of other like-minded believers]?? Perhaps God is VERY displeased that his "precious little gifts" all go running for "Jill" and not "Mama"!!! How about how this insanity TURNS AWAY seekers who can't fathom having endless numbers of children?? How about the way it ALIENATES single moms and working moms?? How about the terror it must inflict in the hearts of men who love having a JOB with benefits and who are terrified of trying to earn a living on their own? I haven't yet seen this week's episode of "19 Kids" but I too am surprised the Today show didn't feature a pregnancy from either Michelle or Anna [Mrs. Joshua Duggar]. I do think we DID actually see a little true terror in that 911 call and in Michelle NOT going to Big Sandy for the conference. But not "enough" apparently. After Jennifer or Jordyn I felt we saw much more of a "we're done" attitude. I think Josie's struggle revived the feelings they had after the miscarriage--that they "caused" it. Maybe it was their "sin" in feeling they were "done" having children and ready to just be grandparents and then God "showed them" by giving them Josie to remind them of who is in charge. Just my 2 cent opinion on all this, but I think they are at least actively trying to get pregnant [force of habit? lol ] in order to "show" God they are his willing and obedient servants. I also wonder if attending a Church that contradicts Mr. Gothard's teachings by allowing "movement" and music with "rhythm and beat" could be guilting them--as well as allowing John David to bring an electric guitar into the house and letting friends play very upbeat bluegrass as well as letting John David say on tv that he "watched a western" etc etc [i.e. that they have too many kids to be really in control of them all].
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Post by hopewell on Aug 9, 2010 14:43:58 GMT -5
Nancy Campbell, to me, come across as Tim Burton's version of Eleanor Roosevelt's demeanor and voice! Or the Spitting Image puppet of Margaret Thatcher! She's just "other worldly" in the extreme. Her dvd "family meal table" had a lot to do with me letting the kids eat where they want for much of last year!! She creeps me out big-time.
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